sex in the spiritual world?

BVI · May 30, 2002

Originally posted by ram:

BVI, As you have seen Krishna personally I would like to ask you an intimate question. As you know the name form and all other qualities of the Supreme Lord are absolute and there are no differences between them.

For one who has experienced one, the others become subtantial. What is the name of Krishna's mala ? What is the speciality of its form ? And what is the smell ?

I have not experienced that by rendering direct service that I have come to know everything knowable about Him. Maybe I am just deficient in that way. My service was brief, and I was focused on pleasing Radharani by my service. My experience was more like Arjuna seeing the eye of the bird. It was intense and focused conscious awareness of what Radharani's desire and happiness is and how to best bring that about through my service, which in those moments were internally communicated. At that instance we were not in a position to speak, we communicated through feelings which were as good as speaking. I perfectly understood what to do and how to do it. That was my experience. In fact, there were other maidservants rendering similar services to mine and I was not even aware of them or even of Krishna to the extent I was focused on Radharani and serving Her. All I can say is that is was intense and focused at a very intimate moment. Krishna was not wearing a garland at that time, in fact one one was.

As there are many cheaters who want cheap adulation and advertise falsely that they have experienced the Lord, I am sure you will out of your humility answer these questions.

I have begun to answer your question. There are certainly more things I could add, but I have to say that these things cannot be expressed properly or entirely with language. I realized that immediately after the experience when I went to record what I was mercifully allowed to recall afterwards. It was a very frustrating exercise to try to capture all that just happened in words. I was able to record the essence of it and that has given me some solace since then to remember and relish the memory of it, but still it is not like the original experience. To taste it at that level again I realize I have to go back there.

Words cannot describe. When in external consciousness, you realize that you cannot taste or fully experience or appreciate that internal state of consciousness. To describe the sweetness, how many times can I say "sweet, sweet, sweet", yet that doesn't even approach the sweetness I tasted. I realized afterwards that there is actually no sweetness in this material world whatsoever.

Expressing all this is rather frustrating and for one who has experienced it, it almost seems futile to try to explain it to you because no matter what I say you are never going to taste it by these words. Prema or rasa has to be tasted to understand it. Still this is just to intice and encourage you to go through the process to position yourself so that you can have your own wonderful experience.

You also cannot make it happen whenever you want. It comes when its comes by the causeless mercy of the Lord. I think I just won a free sample somehow, and I tried to retrace my footsteps to figure out how I did it, and couldn't figure it out.

I caution you that what you might logically and rationally expect as an answer from me may not be a reasonable demand on your part, though it may seem reasonable to you that such a person would have a satisfactory answer to it. To test an unknown, you need to know how to test it. I am not aware that the test, I am assuming you manufactured through logic and reason, is actually a valid one. Nevertheless, I will try to answer as far as is possible, though I don't think you should rely on your own manufactured testing methods very much, which you seem rather confident about.

I will tell you very frankly, having a brief direct service experience does not mean that you are going to know everything there is to know about Krishna. Srila Prabhupada explains how even the personal eternal associates of the Lord are not even sure what is going to happen next. Yoga maya controls the experience, and I did experience that Maya was conspicuous by her absence in retrospect after the experience.

As you know, Srila Prabhupada challenged the bogus Gods to show the universal form. Arjuna was factually convinced of the supremacy of the Lord. But for the benefit of doubting public he asked these questions. Even Syamananda, when suspected by others, showed the mark of goloka. Even mahaprabhu was tested by sarvabhauma who was insignificant compared to him before being accepted as genuine in Puri.

I understand and appreciate what you are trying to accomplish, but again, you need a valid litmis test to achieve your objective here, and I am not convinced you have one. I will still work with you to try to satisfy your doubts in the best way I can through communication, which is a very limited medium. I hope this helped.

Your Servant

BVI · May 30, 2002

Reporter: ls it possible for everyone to attain the perfectional stage you spoke of previously?

Srila Prabhupada: Within a second. Anyone can attain perfection within a second -- providing he is willing. The difficulty is that no one is willing. In the Bhagavad-gita (18.66) Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: "Simply surrender unto Me." But who is going to surrender to God? Everyone says, "Oh, why should I surrender to God? I will be independent." If you simply surrender, it is a second's business. That's all. But no one is willing, and that is the difficulty.

Reporter: When you say that lots of people want to be cheated, do you mean that lots of people want to carry on with their worldly pleasures and at the same time, by chanting a mantra or by holding a flower, achieve spiritual life as well? Is this what you mean by wanting to be cheated?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, this is like a patient thinking, "I shall continue with my disease, and at the same time I shall become healthy." It is contradictory. The first requirement is that one become educated in spiritual life. Spiritual life is not something one can understand by a few minutes' talk. There are many philosophy and theology books, but people are not interested in them. That is the difficulty. For instance, the Srimad-Bhagavatam is a very long work, and if you try to read this book, it may take many days just to understand one line of it. The Bhagavatam describes God, the Absolute Truth, but people are not interested. And if, by chance, someone becomes a little interested in spiritual life, he wants something immediate and cheap. Therefore, he is cheated. Actually, human life is meant for austerity and penance. That is the way of Vedic civilization. In Vedic times they would train boys as brahmacaris; no sex life was allowed at all up to the age of twenty-five. Where is that education now? A brahmacari is a student who lives a life of complete celibacy and obeys the commands of his guru at the gurukula [school of the spiritual master]. Now schools and colleges are teaching sex from the very beginning, and twelve- or thirteen-year-old boys and girls are having sex. How can they have a spiritual life? Spiritual life means voluntarily accepting some austerities for the sake of God realization. That is why we insist on no illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling, or intoxication for our initiated students. Without these restrictions, any "yoga meditation" or so-called spiritual discipline cannot be genuine. It is simply a business deal between the cheaters and the cheated.

BVI · May 30, 2002

Reporter: The question is faith versus the...

Prabhupada: It is not faith. It is not Lala... When I speak "Here is Lalaji,'' it is not faith. It is fact.

Reporter: I guess because you have...

Prabhupada: But you don't believe me.

Reporter: Because you have personally witnessed, you see, sir.

Prabhupada: That's all. It is not faith.

Reporter: Oh, yes, sir. You are (indistinct).

Prabhupada: If you believe me, then it is all right. If you don't believe me, that is different.

Reporter: Then, sir, if everybody (indistinct) and that comment, "Believe me,'' that...

Prabhupada: No. Why do I say...? You have to, you have to see whether, whether this person is worthy of believing. (laughter)

Reporter: Whether the guru is right.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore guru, guru cannot be any ordinary man.

Reporter: That's right.

Prabhupada: That guru cannot be. That guru's designation is there in the Vedas, that tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreya uttamam [sB 11.3.21]. Anyone who is inquisitive for understanding... Suppose if you are inquisitive to understand really what is Lalaji, then you must approach to a person who knows Lalaji. Then you will understand Lalaji. And if you approach somebody who does not know Lalaji, then he may give you misinformation. So guru is that who knows Krsna. Otherwise you will not be able to understand what is Krsna. That Krsna also very easily you can find out. Take what Krsna says. Krsna teaches Bhagavad-gita to Arjuna directly. Now if you believe Arjuna, then you understand Krsna. Krsna taught Bhagavad-gita to Arjuna, and why Arjuna was taught, that is also said by Krsna, that bhakto 'si priyo 'si: "Because you are My devotee.'' Krsna did not go to teach Bhagavad-gita to a Vedantist. He went to teach to Arjuna. He was a family man, he was a soldier, but why he was selected? He, Krsna said, bhakto 'si. So if you approach a Krsna bhakta like Arjuna, then you will understand Krsna; otherwise you will not. They are understanding Krsna through me, not before me. But if they or some of them, "something,'' some of them "something,'' they may be very big scholar, but they did not know what is Krsna.

Reporter: So first there should be direct...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Reporter: ...apprehension by...

Prabhupada: Yes. One must be brahma-nistham, srotriyam brahma-nistham. Tad vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet

samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham

"To understand these things properly, one must humbly approach, with firewood in hand, a spiritual master who is learned in the Vedas and firmly devoted to the Absolute Truth."

[Mundaka Upanisad 1.2.12]

1.2.12]. Abhigacchet means must. You must find out a guru who knows Krsna. Otherwise there is no possibility of knowing Krsna.

Reporter: So, sir, for we poor mortals it is very difficult to immediately, you see, to...

Prabhupada: It is not a subject matter to understand immediately.

Reporter: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: It is not subject matter to understand immediately. It is a science.

Reporter: Yes, a science.

Prabhupada: It is a science, jnana sa vijnana. So you cannot understand a science in five minutes. That is not possible.

Reporter: Yes. So we were trying to understand... No. We have just come to understand you.

Prabhupada: Yes. That was others you cannot understand. (laughter)

Reporter: (indistinct) He is trying to tell some kind of parochial (indistinct).

Prabhupada: If you kindly accept what I say, then it is possible. If you are simply, what I say, if you have faith in me, and if what I say you believe, then you can understand. Other, it is not possible.

Reporter: Can there be an existence without a faith, sir?

Prabhupada: No. Faith is the beginning. But you have to... If you don't increase that faith scientifically, then that faith will not help you.

Reporter: My (indistinct), sir, that without existence, without faith, there can not be (indistinct).

Prabhupada: No, no. That I say: faith is the beginning. Faith is the beginning.

Reporter: Because I take the word of my father, of my mother, that he is my father...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Reporter: ...I cannot prove it. Nobody can prove it that he is my father.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Therefore that is the beginning of knowledge. That is the beginning, adau sraddha. That is stated in the sastra: adau sraddha, faith. Then if you have got sraddha, then adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangah [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. Suppose if you are, if you are very much anxious, you have got faith to understand Krsna, then next step is to associate with persons who know Krsna. Just like you are doing some business, so you have to enter into some association, businessmen, to understand the business from them. Similarly, if you have faith in Krsna, then you have to understand Him through the association of devotees. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangau [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. Atha bhajana-kriya. Then as soon as you have... Just as these boys, they came to me. After association they wanted to be initiated: "Swami, please initiate.'' That is called bhajana-kriya. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangah atha bhajana kriya. And if you are performing bhajana kriya nicely, then anartha-nivrttih syat, then all misgivings will go away.

Reporter: Anartha visya.

Prabhupada: Anartha-nivrttih syat. Then nobody will question. All questions will be anartha-nivrttih, all doubts gone. Then nistha, firm faith. Then firm faith, nistha. Then taste. Whenever there is Krsna topics, immediately you go. Tato nistha...

Reporter: Taste?

Prabhupada: Taste, rucih.

Reporter: Accha. Taste, rucih.

Prabhupada: Tato nistha tatah rucih athasakti , then attachment.

Reporter: Tatha?

Prabhupada: Asakti.

Reporter: Asakti.

Prabhupada: Mayy asakta-manah partha yogam yunjan mad-asrayah. That is Krsna says, mayi asakta. We have to increase our asakta, attachment, for Krsna by this process. Tathasakti tatah bhavah. Then you will see Krsna everywhere. That is krsna prema.

Reporter: That is bhava. That is at last...

Prabhupada: Yes, not last. Last but one. The last stage is you can not live without Krsna.

Reporter: What do you call in Sanskrit, sir?

Prabhupada: That is called, first of all bhavah, then prema, prema, krsna prema. That is our high perfection. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu is speaking that "I am seeing everything vacant without Krsna.'' Sunyayitam jagat sarvam govinda-virahena me. That is the last stage of perfection. You become mad about, after Krsna. So that will take time. This is the process. But faith is the beginning. Yes. And that faith is also explained by the author of Caitanya-caritamrta: sraddha-sabde visvasa sudrdha niscaya. Faith means such faith that firm faith, sudrdha, niscaya, certain. Krsna bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya. This is faith. Therefore Krsna said that sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [bg. 18.66]. So faith means to believe in the word of Krsna, that "Surrendering to Krsna I will get everything. Now, I am free. This is my perfection.'' That is called faith. Krsna said that sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [bg. 18.66]. Now, if I say unto you that "You give up everything, come with me,'' unless you have got firm faith, how can you do it? That is faith. That faith has to be increased, and then it will reach to the stage of love.

BVI · May 30, 2002

Just like we are sitting face to face, Kåñëa is like that. You can have that opportunity. Just like Arjuna had the opportunity. Similarly you’ll have the opportunity. You have to take the opportunity. You’ll see Kåñëa face to face, talk with Him face to face, play with Him face to face. It is so nice, Kåñëa consciousness. Yes. Go on.

============ REF. Bhagavad-gétä 2.20-25 -- Seattle, October 14, 1968

Guest (2) (man): Does God speak to me, within me, whether I listen or not?

Prabhupäda: God will speak just like you are speaking face to face if you are qualified.

Guest (2): Not in terms of words or even sound within me but does...

Prabhupäda: Sound is speaking. Speaking is sound. There is no difference. When you speak there is sound.

============ REF. Bhagavad-gétä 9.4 -- Melbourne, April 22, 1976

Prabhupäda: That is God. Some of you are saying there is no God, some of you are saying God is dead, and some of you are saying God is impersonal or void. These are all nonsense. I want to teach all these nonsense that there is God. That is my mission. Any nonsense can come to me, I shall prove that there is God. That is my Kåñëa consciousness movement. It is a challenge to the atheistic people. There is God. As we are sitting here face to face, you can see God face to face. If you are sincere and if you are serious, that is possible. Unfortunately, we are trying to forget God; therefore we are embracing so many miseries of life. So I am simply preaching that you have Kåñëa consciousness and be happy. Don’t be swayed away by these nonsense waves of mäyä, or illusion. That is my request.

Devotees: Haribol!

============ REF. Arrival Address -- London, September 11, 1969

Prabhupäda: (translated into Spanish by Hådayänanda) So I thank you very much for your kindly receiving me in this temple, and I was very happy. So my request is that you continue your devotional service very faithfully and rigidly, then in this life you will be able to see Kåñëa face to face. That is a fact. So you follow the advice, as given by Rüpa Gosvämé, utsähät. The first thing is enthusiasm, that “I must see Kåñëa.” You are seeing Kåñëa. The Deity of Kåñëa and Kåñëa is not different. But even personally we can see. Simply we have to continue the enthusiasm. Enthusiasm means to take things very seriously, utsähäd dhairyät, and patiently. Although we are determined to go back to home, back to Godhead, so we should patiently follow the rules and regulations. So these are the six principles: enthusiasm and firm determination and patience and executing the regulative principles, tat-tat-karma-pravartanät, and sato våtteù, means behavior must be very honest, no duplicity, and utsähäd dhairyät niçcayät tat-tat-karma-pravartanät, and sato våtteù, dealing must be very honestly, no hypocrisy, tat-tat-karma-pravartanät, sädhu-saìga, and in the association of devotees. If you follow these six principles, namely enthusiasm, determination, patience, and executing the regulative principles and keep yourself honest and in the association of devotee, if you follow these six principle, then your success is sure.

So these are the six principle, positive. Ñaòbhir bhaktiù prasidhyati: “By following these six principle, success is assured.” Similarly, there are opposite number. What is that? Atyähäraù, eating too much. Atyähäraù means eating too much or unnecessarily collecting too much. And prayäsaù. Prayäsaù means too much endeavoring for a thing, mean unnecessarily taking some anxiety. Don’t do that. Atyähäraù prayäsas prajalpaù, and talking nonsense, gossiping some subject matter which has no concern with Kåñëa consciousness. We are accustomed to do that. We should avoid it. Atyähäraù prayäsaç ca prajalpo niyamägrahaù [NoI 2]. Niyamägrahaù means the positive rules and regulation, simply make a show but not actually realize it. Niyamägrahaù, laulyam, and to become very greedy, and jana-saìgaç ca, and mixing with persons who are not devotee. These six things should be avoided, and the first things should be followed. Then your success in devotional service is sure. (Hådayänanda begins to translate and pauses) Prajalpaù, unnecessary gossiping. Just like people are wasting time taking one newspaper and talking for hours. These things should be avoided. And to associate with nondevotees. And greediness. These things should be avoided.

atyähäraù prayäsaç ca

prajalpo niyamägrahaù

laulyaà jana-saìgaç ca

ñaòbhir bhaktir pranaçyati

[NoI 2]

If you indulge in these six items, then your devotional service will be finished. And the first six principles means,

utsähäd dhairyäd niçcayät

tat-tat-karma-pravartanät

sato våtteù sädhu-saìge

ñaòbhir bhaktiù prasidhyati

By these six principles, you will advance, and the other six principles, you will fall down.

So under the guidance of your leaders in this temple, especially Hådayänanda Mahäräja, and if followed... One life, just take little trouble. It is no trouble; it is very happy life. But because we are accustomed to these material habits, we think it is trouble. No. It is not trouble. It is very pleasing. Su-sukhaà kartum avyayam. In the Bhagavad-gétä it is... “To execute devotional service is very pleasing.” I think...

Thank you very much for your... (end)

============ REF. Departure Lecture -- Caracas, February 25, 1975

Prabhupäda: If you are suffering from cataract, how you can see distinctly? You have to get your eyes operated. Then you can see. So our bhakti process is simply purifying, purifying, more, more, more. When you are completely purified, you see God face to face, eye to eye, talk with Him, play with Him, just like cowherds boys, they are playing, the gopés are dancing. You get that position. [break]

============ REF. Morning Walk -- July 2, 1975, Denver

Viçäla: I remember over five years ago you telling me about, “If you read the first nine cantos of Çrémad-Bhägavatam, you become fully Kåñëa conscious.” Would you kindly tell me what does it mean to be fully Kåñëa conscious?

Prabhupäda: What do you understand, fully Kåñëa conscious?

Viçäla: What does it mean to be fully Kåñëa conscious?

Prabhupäda: No, what you mean, first of all let me know.

Harikeça: What do you think fully Kåñëa concious means? You tell Prabhupäda.

Viçäla: It’s to see Kåñëa face to face?

Prabhupäda: That means Kåñëa conscious? Everyone is seeing Kåñëa face to face. When you go to the temple Kåñëa is there, and you are seeing. Does it mean everyone is Kåñëa conscious?

Viçäla: No.

Prabhupäda: Then what is the meaning of Kåñëa conscious?

Indian man: Brahma-bhütaù prasannätmä na çocati na käìkñati [bg. 18.54].

Prabhupäda: Hm, that is part of Kåñëa consciousness, brahàa bhütaù. Real Kåñëa consciousness is: “Kåñëa is master, I am servant.” This is Kåñëa consciousness.

Viçäla: To understand that you’re the servant and Kåñëa is the master. I see.

Prabhupäda: When you fully understand, that is your Kåñëa... That is Kåñëa conscious. [break] So long you think that “I can also become like Kåñëa,” then you are not Kåñëa conscious.

Viçäla: In other words, if you still have material desires you can’t be fully Kåñëa conscious.

Prabhupäda: Yes. That is the beginning of Kåñëa consciousness, anyäbhiläñitä-çünyam [brs. 1.1.11]. Make all your material desires zero.

Viçäla: Thank you very much.

Prabhupäda: That is Kåñëa conscious. You should only desire to serve Kåñëa. [break] ...clear or not?

Viçäla: Very clear. Thank you very much.

Harikeça: What if a person doesn’t desire material enjoyment, but still, there is so much dirt?

Prabhupäda: Hm? Who is that person who has no material desires?

Harikeça: A person really wants to be Kåñëa conscious, but somehow or another, so much dirts gets in the way.

Prabhupäda: Yes. Dirt means it is not yet zero. I said that all material desires should be made zero. Anyäbhiläñitä-çünyam [brs. 1.1.11].

Harikeça: As soon as the desires completely change, then everything else is purified.

Prabhupäda: Yes.

============ REF. Morning Walk -- December 10, 1975, Våndävana

Prabhupada:...With dull brain, physical brain, we cannot understand. That is not possible. Therefore to spiritualize the brain, the senses, requires a process. Just like to keep a vegetable in frozen condition, it requires a process. Similarly, we have to undergo a process to come to this spiritual platform, to understand the spirit soul, the supreme being, God, and the relationship and the activities. We must adopt the process. And those who are adopting the process, they are making progress. Practical. So it is not impractical. Thousands of these Europeans and Americans, they, say, a few years ago, four, five years ago—say, at most ten years ago—they did not know what is Kåñëa, what is God. But now you ask them, they will explain. They are not foolish, they are not uneducated. So unless they are situated in the spiritual platform, how they are sticking? So there is process, and the process is practical. Anyone who adopts this process, he’ll be able to understand. The process is meant for human being. Any human being who adopts this process will understand. So ask any one of them, these European, American boys, “Are you sticking to Krsna consciousness sentimentally or understanding?” Ask them. They will explain, “Yes, understanding.” Not blindly. Blindly one cannot stick—that is not possible. No, there is God, there is possibility to come in touch with God, there is possibility to serve Him directly, to see Him face to face, if we adopt the process.

============ REF. Evening Darshana -- August 9, 1976, Tehran

Bhakti-devé däsé: Have you ever seen Kåñëa?

Prabhupäda: Yes.

Bhakti-devé däsé: You have?

Prabhupäda: Daily. Every moment.

Bhakti-devé däsé: But not in the material…, not in the material body?

Prabhupäda: Huh? No in… He has no material body.

Bhakti-devé däsé: Well in the temple here they have pictures of Kåñëa…

Prabhupäda: That is not material. You are seeing material…

Bhakti-devé däsé: Uh huh.

Prabhupäda: …because you have got material eyes. Because your, you have got your material eyes, you cannot see the spiritual form. Therefore He kindly appears to be in a material body so that you can see. This is the point. Because He has kindly made Himself just fit for your seeing, that does not mean He is…, that He has material body. Just like President Nixon, if he kindly comes to your house, it does not mean that his position and your position is the same. It is his kindness, out of love, he may come to your house, but that does not mean he is on the same level with you. Similarly, because we cannot see with our present eyes what is Kåñëa, therefore Kåñëa appears before us as painting, as made of stone, as made of wood. And Kåñëa is not different from these paintings and wood because everything is Kåñëa.

============ REF. Room Conversation -- New York, July 4, 1972, (new98)

BVI · May 30, 2002

Letter to: Madhudvisa

--

Unknown Place

Unknown Date

Letter excerpt

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic

We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.

On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.

Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.

Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.

Letter to: Madhudvisa --

BVI · May 30, 2002

Tamala Krsna: ...been seeing this one person there by the name of Bhagavan Shringari Das, Bhagavan Shringari. He's the pujari of Lord Jagannatha. So he's claiming that when anyone goes to a holy place like Jagannatha Puri that they have to get initiated by a tirtha-guru. So these foolish disciples, they're going and they're accepting initiation from him, and he gives them some mantra, and then he... Naturally there's an exchange of money. They have to promise to send money regularly for Lord... He says it's for Lord Jagannatha. Obviously Lord Jagannatha will never see the money. He also gets them to write a letter. The letter reads something like that "I came to India blind, but now Bhagavan Shringari Das has opened my eyes." Doesn't even mention Your Divine Grace. And this boy, he was telling me this... When he asked about the holy places... This devotee, who..., he's doing a little assistance for me, he refused to have anything..., take any initiation 'cause he said that he could understand that something was wrong. He asked him, "What about Mayapura?" He said, "Oh, Mayapura is nothing. That is not the dhama." Then he said, "Dhama means...," and he named the four dhamas. So in this way some of the devotees are... Apparently they're even going back to America and they're encouraging others to send money to this cheater. This man is a big cheater. (name withheld), she took this initiation, and some other people, he mentioned... When he was there, there were already four devotees there, some householder devotee from Los Angeles, (name withheld)... He sells them things like the flag from the top of the temple for a hundred rupees. You know, different types of thing he sells them. So I said, "So why didn't you ask him, ‘Now that we're your disciple and you're our guru, now take us into the temple'? "

Prabhupada: Hm?

Tamala Krsna: I told him that he should have said that "I will become your disciple, but you take me into the temple with you. Because disciple means the son, so if you're my father, so I'm your son. You take me into the temple." But he... One of the devotees asked that, but he said, "No, no, that will not be possible, but you will see Lord Jagannatha in the Ratha-yatra time." The man is such a cheater. Of course, none of the more serious devotees, I think, are taking this man very seriously, but some of the devotees are a little less intelligent, so they are being fooled.

Prabhupada: So the cheaters are there. If our men are cheated, if they agree to be cheated, how can I stop them? In Vrndavana also they have done like that, the babajis.

Tamala Krsna: Same way.

Prabhupada: Nitai is victim.

Tamala Krsna: Radha-kunda. And in Vrndavana also. That Jagannatha dasa was telling you, remember, how he met some babaji coming on the road.

Prabhupada: So there are cheaters, and if one wants to be cheated, how we can stop?

Tamala Krsna: Actually this makes me feel that it's very important that we have our temple in Bhubaneshvara.

Prabhupada: So you can publish this in our Back to Godhead. These things are going on. Devotees should be very careful not to be victimized by this cheater.

Tamala Krsna: I think I can write a letter to the "Letters to the Editors" column. That'll be the proper place.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Very good. What are...? Now, this man proclaimed himself to be "tirtha-guru." What are some of the other ways that they will say? I remember Jagannatha was saying that he...

Prabhupada: Tirtha-guru, if he's able to take him to the temple, then tirtha guru. Otherwise he's a goru, cow, tirtha cow. That's all.

Tamala Krsna: Say like that.

Prabhupada: Yes. (laughs) Tell them that. He's unable to show Jagannatha. Then how he's guru? It is guru's responsibility to bring him to... That is upanayana. Upanayana, this sacred thread, means the guru brings him near God.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, this man gives them some thread, makes them touch his feet, the whole thing, offer coconut...

Prabhupada: He's a foolish rascal. What can be done?

Tamala Krsna: Yeah. Jagannatha, when he was telling us about this babaji, he said that there's also these babajis, they claim to be a guru for giving initiation into their svarupa.

Prabhupada: Svarupa-siddhi.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, svarupa-siddhi. So we can mention this as also rascaldom.

Prabhupada: Yes. What can be done? Cheaters there are. If you want to be cheated, who can save you? He has made guru without asking his guru. He submits to others. Then how we can save him?

Tamala Krsna: What does that do to his relationship with his own spiritual master?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Tamala Krsna: How does this affect his relationship with his...?

Prabhupada: They don't care for his own spiritual master.

Tamala Krsna: But what...? That means their relationship is spoiled.

Prabhupada: Yes. Guror avajna, aparadha.

Tamala Krsna: Aparadha.

Prabhupada: And Caitanya Mahaprabhu has advised, "Save yourself from aparadha." Some aparadha, and they are going away, just like Nitai. Guror avajna.

Tamala Krsna: It's called the elephant offense?

Prabhupada: Hm. Vaisnava-aparadha. The weak and the fools, they will be victimized. What can be done? Tirtha-guru, the panda is accepted tirtha-guru... That... But he takes to Jagannatha temple and other holy places, gives him instruction about the holy places and so on, so on, shelter, food, in this way.

Tamala Krsna: Hm. There is such a thing.

Prabhupada: Yes. Because I am unknown, so he helps me in every respect. So Vaisnava accepts everyone as guru, siksa-guru, diksa-guru, then tirtha-guru. This is no harm. But what is this rascal, "No, no, you cannot sit down here. You take the flag and pay me hundred rupees?" if you are so rascal, who can save you?

Tamala Krsna: Tirtha-goru.

Prabhupada: Tirtha-goru, that is called. That risk is there because in India there are so many places, holy places. If you are not expert, you'll be victimized.

Tamala Krsna: What about this svarupa-siddhi?

Prabhupada: Svarupa-siddhi, that is bogus. Svarupa-siddhi is not that you do all nonsense things and svarupa-siddhi... Svarupa-siddhi means when he is actually liberated, he understands what is his relationship with Krsna. That is svarupa-siddhi. Sakhya... So that is far away. Unless... If he's such a fool, then where is svarupa-siddhi?

Tamala Krsna: So that realization doesn't come by some initiation from some babaji.

Prabhupada: That automatically comes when there..., he is liberated, not before. So the babajis give this mantra for svarupa-siddhi?

Tamala Krsna: Hm.

Prabhupada: Yes, this is going on.

Tamala Krsna: This man, he has a book now of these..., this man from Puri, Jagannatha Puri. He has a... He collects letters from each one of them, and he keeps them in a book, and he shows...

Prabhupada: Yes, that "They have given me..."

Tamala Krsna: So many disciples.

Prabhupada: The Vrndavana also they do. These things are there, their business. And they smoke gan..., opium, ganja. Pan they are chewing, fish. "Tirtha-guru." In Vrndavana the jata-guru, caste gosvami, they do like that. He'll not touch his water even, and still, he is disciple.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, but that... This is such a contradiction, that the man gives someone, makes someone his disciple, but he will not take him.

Prabhupada: He'll not take his food, he'll not touch his water, and still, he's guru. That's all. In Vrndavana it is going on, large... So many visitors come. They are victimized. They have got their step, in that way.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, right. The devotees should understand also that any money that's given to these persons, the Deity will never see this money.

Prabhupada: Cheating is going on. You have to be careful. Otherwise very risky. Vipralipsa. One of the qualification of conditioned souls is to cheat others and be cheated. Vanchita vanchaka. Business cheat... (end)

Conversation: Bogus Gurus -- April 25, 1977, Bombay

raga · May 30, 2002

I am not going to advertise or glorify such rascals by mentioning their name. They know who they are, and let them be known and attacked by their symptoms. They are not deserving of any such names ending with "dasa" or "babaji" and I will not perpetrate an injustice by referring to them as such.

Everyone has the right to follow their own path, I agree. But they don't have the right to blaspheme my guru parampara, as long as I am still breathing, I will be counter-attacking their insidious cowardly attacks against my gurus, also following in the fiery footsteps of Hanuman. That is my duty and my vow.

I offer my obeisances to the guru called Vedabase Copy/Paste utility, and I revere the insights obtained by reading statements from 30-year old conversations without any personal study of the same. However, it does not anything substantiate, since it little has to do with present-day reality. Right?

I am just making the point that blanket condemnations of "Radha-kund Babajis", "Gaudiya Math", "ISKCON" and whom not is the very same attitude which turned six million Jews into ashes a few decades ago, "because they were all bad". There is no homogenous mass called "Radha Kund Babajis". Because my revered gurupadapadma resides at Radha Kund, immersed in bhajan, and I know he is not involved in criticizing others, therefore I am aggrieved to read your allegations.

Should there be any genuine desire in anyone to read the truth on such matters, you are invited to browse our Q&A section at http://www.raganuga.com/qa and see for yourself the philosophy and theology promulgated by the present Mahanta of Radha Kund, Ananta Das Pandit Baba.

So if indeed you intend to go on ranting about the ingenuity of those who practice siddha-pranali, and in general on Radha Kund Babajis, then I request you to be specific.

You are yet to answer my two questions:

1. Have you spoken in person with any prominent leader at Radha Kund, even if only for a few minutes?

2. Could you define the meaning of siddha-pranali, as it is understood among traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavas?

It will be better if you can answer with brief, personal statements instead of copying one meter of Vedabase on the board, since you are after all an inspirational messenger of realization here.

abhi_the_great · May 30, 2002

From www.raganuga.com.

Who is disqualified from hearing discussions of pastimes which

invoke greed for raganuga bhakti?

In Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, the five chief types of sacred feelings are

described with their component ingredients in an detailed fashion.

There, sacred erotic love (madhura rati) has been described as the

most excellent; nevertheless, in spite of its excellence, it was

described only briefly; the extensive description being reserved for

Ujjvala Nilamani. Rupa himself explains why (BRS 3.5.2):

"Those renunciates who are excessively inclined to asceticism, those

who are unable to distinguish between the erotic affairs of the material

world and spiritual eros, and those who, although devotees, are

indifferent to the erotic mysticism of the Bhagavata-purana, are not

qualified to hear about sacred erotic rapture, and since it is also

esoteric and difficult to understand, it has been described here in only

an abbreviated way although it is a huge topic."

Visnu Dasa writes in his commentary on Ujjvala-nilamani (1.2):

(1) This spiritual discussion is unedifying for those who, though they

are devotees of Krishna, have no inclination toward erotic sacred

rapture and for those who, considering the Lord's erotic dalliances to

be the same as mundane sexuality, feel dispassion or lack any taste for

them.

(2) Although there are many devotees in erotic sacred rapture, still,

not all of them, because they lack the proper aptitude, are proficient at

tasting rapture. For them, this discussion is difficult to grasp.

(3) It is improper to discuss this topic before those whose minds are

deeply absorbed in the path of injunctions, who, because of having

various tendencies, are by nature unaware of the path of passion. The

superiority of the path of passion means, after all, that there are

unlimited lesser natures unsuited for it. (MSN 1)

Like mine Posted Image

Your site is exotic, prabhu raga. Wonderful effort. Koti Dandavats.

BVI · May 30, 2002

Originally posted by raga:
I offer my obeisances to the guru called Vedabase Copy/Paste utility, and I revere the insights obtained by reading statements from 30-year old conversations without any personal study of the same. However, it does not anything substantiate, since it little has to do with present-day reality. Right?

You are making wild assumptions here. Your hunch about by understanding of these issues is as wild. I can appreciate your reaction to these posts. You are not a loyal follower of Srila Prabhupada. I would expect you to react like this. I am not out to destroy anything you have, faith in a person, a process of an object of worship. Your degree of surrender dictates the intelligence you are qualified to receive from Krishna, and your surrender will dictate the results and reactions for aligning with the person and process you defend. I cannot make you surrender more to become more enlightened when you are already so entrenched.

I am just making the point that blanket condemnations of "Radha-kund Babajis", "Gaudiya Math", "ISKCON" and whom not is the very same attitude which turned six million Jews into ashes a few decades ago, "because they were all bad". There is no homogenous mass called "Radha Kund Babajis". Because my revered gurupadapadma resides at Radha Kund, immersed in bhajan, and I know he is not involved in criticizing others, therefore I am aggrieved to read your allegations.

I never said any such thing, that every one of the babjis is bad. Everyone should be treated as an individual and held responsible for his acts and treated accordingly. Deal a man in his own coin is what my guru says.

I am saying that whoever is blaspheming my gurus is going to be villified in public at the very least or worse. That is not something I will tolerate. Your understanding of the reality of Radha Kunda and the persons you think you know so well is not mine. I have different inside information.

Shall I submit eye witness testimony to invalidate everything you claim herein about the people you know so well? Either you are covering the facts as a co-offender, or you are being used like an ignorant pawn in a very evil game of Bengali political tit-for-tat that has been going on for 70 years+, which you are clearly unaware of. This is not a 30 year issue as you have mistakenly and arrogantly misassessed. If you are going to support criminals then you will also share in their karma. As you surrender you get rewarded. Tit-for-tat.

Should there be any genuine desire in anyone to read the truth on such matters, you are invited to browse our Q&A section at http://www.raganuga.com/qa and see for yourself the philosophy and theology promulgated by the present Mahanta of Radha Kund, Ananta Das Pandit Baba.

Everyone has the truth, but not everyone is telling it, nor has everyone received it. Your version of holier-than-thou truth is far from the realm of truth and is rahter in the realm of illusion. You are ignorant and in illusion, but no one can help you now. It is too late. Your fate is already decided and now you must experience the reactions for your decisions. Envy is the ornament you wear, as evidenced by your posts, which is the insignia of your camp of pretenders (that by the way is the meaning of siddha pranali- to pretend until the real thing happens- utlizing kalpana or imagination).

Not all pretenders are like your camp, I admit, just the worst ones who can't tolerate to not bark when the acarya's caravan passes.

So if indeed you intend to go on ranting about the ingenuity of those who practice siddha-pranali, and in general on Radha Kund Babajis, then I request you to be specific.

You say ranting, I say telling the truth. You have your version of the truth and I have my understanding and both will be tested at the time of death, to borrow from a famous Bengali saying. I haven't even begun to rant.

There are many more things to be revealed. One specific thing I can state as a fact, that your guru is one of the worst offenders. His so-called bhajan is a farce. His application of his process is a joke. As Srila Bhaktisiddhanta pointed out to your revered gurupadapadma 70 yrs ago, you are cut off from the Caitanya branch through your deviant and indiscriminant misuse of a very sacred path revealed by Mahaprabhu, which has degraded to base sahajiya show-bottle spiritualism and offenses against the real acarya who was simply trying to save them. Repent and recant and even for your camp there can be hope, the real Vaishnavas are really very merciful.

Great apologies are owed to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta by your pandita, and when he does so then maybe he can become self-realized along with his followers. Pretending to do bhajan while making politics against the most elevated Vaishnavas in Mahaprabhu's army is not intelligent behavior befitting a pandit.

You can serve your pandita nicely by delivering this message, and if you do well, you may be able to transform him into a real guru. Now *that's* a rant. Everything up until this point was pure poetry. Your puffed-up neophyte attitude and my desire to help you see the light and avoid the bad association of black snakes like your pandita made me do it.

I am sure you are beyond hope, but this is probably the only chance you have of realizing the danger you are in. I pray to Radharani to enlightened you from within. If you have any love for Srila Prabhupada then you should just stick to his lotus feet and forget all these babajis who won't even let you offer arotika on the altar in their own temple. You are being used in a political attack and for your potential to bring in prestige and money as a Western disciple.

This particular camp is a cut off and withering branch. They have no potency. I guarantee time will prove me true. Get out while you can and run to Srila Prabhupada's lotus feet for protection. You won't get it by associating and serving someone who blasphemes Srila Prabhupada's guru, and this I know for a FACT. You may not know it, but I do 100%. He is a very tricky and diplomatic offender and faith destroyer who lures in ISKCON devotees by claiming he respects Srila Bhaktivinoda THakura and Srila Prabhupada. Then he goes to work destroying faith in Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, and once you buy into that your so-called remaining faith in Srila Prabhupada is all useless. You can't have one without the other. Just as "One who accepts Mahaprabhu but rejects Nityananda is an offender."

You are yet to answer my two questions:

1. Have you spoken in person with any prominent leader at Radha Kund, even if only for a few minutes?

2. Could you define the meaning of siddha-pranali, as it is understood among traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavas?

It will be better if you can answer with brief, personal statements instead of copying one meter of Vedabase on the board, since you are after all an inspirational messenger of realization here.

raga · May 30, 2002

I never said any such thing, that every one of the babjis is bad. Everyone should be treated as an individual and held responsible for his acts and treated accordingly. Deal a man in his own coin is what my guru says.

I am saying that whoever is blaspheming my gurus is going to be villified in public at the very least or worse. That is not something I will tolerate. Your understanding of the reality of Radha Kunda and the persons you think you know so well is not mine. I have different inside information.

Sir, you kindly present this inside information you have. If you have inside information beyond the Vedabase quotes, them please present it to our audience here.

If you make statements such as:

"Even the Radha Kunda Babajis who blaspheme Srila Bhaktisiddhanta..."

"There is alot of false and offensive propaganda being spread to destroy faith in Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, and I have found the main source, the Babajis at Radha Kunda."

...and so forth, then you ought to specify the individual who does so. Otherwise people will take it that "the Babajis at Radha Kunda" are all doing like this. So, please specify the individuals who engage in such criticism, or otherwise kindly withdraw your statements and admit that you do not know from where the criticism emanates.

"Deal a man in his own coin is what my guru says." Who is your guru, by the way?

that by the way is the meaning of siddha pranali- to pretend until the real thing happens- utlizing kalpana or imagination).

This is in accordance with the teachings of Bhaktivinoda, Visvanatha, Narottama and the rest. Narottama says (PBC 55-56):

"sAdhane bhAvibo jAha siddha-dehe pAbo tAha, rAga pathera ei se upAya

Whatever I think of during my sAdhana, I will attain in my siddha-deha -- this is the path of Raganuga."

"sAdhane ye dhana cAi, siddha dehe tAhA pAi,

pakkApakka mAtra se vicAra

apakke sAdhana rIti pAkile se prema-bhakti,

bhakati lakSana tattva sAra

The treasure I desire in sAdhana I will attain in siddha deha -- it is just a question of ripe and unripe. The unripe stage is sAdhana, and the ripe stage is prema-bhakti. This is the essence of truth about devotion."

Visvanatha also speaks about serving in an "internally conceived, desired siddha deha" in his Raga Vartma Candrika (1.11): "siddha rupenAntaz-cintitAbhiSTa tat sAkSAt sevopayogi dehena."

The same is very clearly promulgated by Bhaktivinoda in his Harinama Cintamani (15.64-68):

rAdhA-kRSNa aSTa-kAla yei lIlA kare

tAhAra zravaNe lobha haya ataHpare

lobha ha-ile guru-pade jijJAsA udaya

kemane pAiba lIlA kaha mahAzaya

gurudeva kRpA kari karibe varNana

lIlA-tattve ekAdaza bhAva-saGghaTana

prasanna ha-iyA prabhu karibe Adeza

ei bhAve lIlA-madhye karaha praveza

zuddha rUpe siddha bhAva kariyA zravaNa

sei bhAva svIya citte karibe varaNa

" As the aspiring devotee hears about Radha and Krishna's aSTa-kAliya-lIlA, he starts to feel an intense desire one to join Them in Their activities. Possessed by this desire, he asks the spiritual master, 'O great soul, what must I do to attain these pastimes?' The spiritual master then mercifully describes to his disciple the eleven aspects and how they relate to the Lord’s lila. Pleased with his disciple, the spiritual master then orders him, 'Now go and enter the Lord’s pastimes in this identity.' On hearing of his eternal spiritual identity with a pure attitude,

the aspirant accepts it and takes it into his heart." (please read the complete text here)

Who could oppose such a beautiful, systematic method of cultivating and finally attaining one's desired siddha-deha?

This, by the way is not called "siddha pranali", but "siddha deha". Do you know what siddha pranali means?

One specific thing I can state as a fact, that your guru is one of the worst offenders. His so-called bhajan is a farce. His application of his process is a joke. As Srila Bhaktisiddhanta pointed out to your revered gurupadapadma 70 yrs ago, you are cut off from the Caitanya branch through your deviant and indiscriminant misuse of a very sacred path revealed by Mahaprabhu, which has degraded to base sahajiya show-bottle spiritualism and offenses against the real acarya who was simply trying to save them.

Your rhetoric is increasing in volume, and I am amused to note how increasingly unfounded it proves to be. My guru is 75 years old, and certainly never met Bhaktisiddhanta, who departed in 1936 -- 66 years ago. Would you propose that Bhaktisiddhanta confronted my guru when he was 11 years old? It is evident that the rest of your allegations are equally unfounded, since you are unable to say anything specific beyond heavily loaded rhethorics.

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-30-2002).]

raga · May 30, 2002

Originally posted by Prema108:

Looks like BVS is starting to lose his 'guru" cool. Could his spiritual realizations be a by product of his political interests? Who knows? But it doesn't look good for him right now.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written a very instructive song, "kRpA koro vaiSNava ThAkura", where he begs to be saved from "guru-abhimAna", which will bring about one's destruction.<blockquote>

<center>KRpA Koro VaiSNava ThAkura

by zrIla Bhaktivinoda ThAkura</center>

<center>kRpA koro vaiSNava ThAkura, sambandha jAniyA

bhajite bhajite, abhimAna hau dUra (1)</center>

O VaiSNava ThAkura! Please give me your mercy – knowledge of my relationship with BhagavAn and the ability to do bhajana, sending my false ego far away.

<center>'Ami to vaiSNava', e buddhi hoile, amAnI nA ho'bo Ami

pratiSthAzA Asi', hRdoya dUSibe, hoibo niraya-gAmI (2)</center>

If I think "I am a VaiSNava," then I will never become humble. My heart will become contaminated with the hope of receiving honor from others, and I will surely go to hell.

<center>tomAra kiGkora, Apane jAnibo, 'guru'-abhimAna tyaji'

tomAra ucchiSTha, pada-jala-reNu, sadA niSkapaTe bhaji (3)</center>

Give me the mercy that I can renounce the false conception of my being guru and can be your servant. Let me accept without duplicity your remnants and your foot-bath water.

<center>'nije zreSTha' jani, ucchiSTthAdi dAne, ho'be abhimAna bhAra

tAi ziSya taba, thAkiyA sarvadA, nA loibo pUjA kA'r (4)</center>

By thinking that I am superior (guru) and giving my remnants to others, I will bring about my destruction. Let me always identify as your disciple and not accept any worship or praise from others.

<center>amAnI mAnada, hoile kIrtane, adhikAra dibe tumi

tomAra caraNe, niSkapaTe Ami, kAGdiyA luTibo bhUmi (5)</center>

In this way I can renounce the desire for honor for myself and can offer respect to others. Weeping sincerely at your lotus feet and rolling on the ground, I pray that you will give me the ability to chant nAma purely.

</blockquote>

Earlier I have asked from BVI, "2. Please specify who quote his writings and sing his songs." Now I have answered the question myself. The songs of Bhaktivinoda are beautiful and saturated with wisdom.

I would appreciate if BVI would clearly address any one, two or all of the straightforward points I have put forth instead of increasing the volume of unfounded statements which do not address my clearly articulated questions and remarks.

raga · May 30, 2002

By the way, may I ask, BVI, are you by chance a follower of Sripad BV Narayana Maharaja? Much of what you have presented appears to draw from his preaching.

Using the term "kalpana" to depict meditation on siddha-deha during sadhana, speaking about "following in the fiery footsteps of Hanuman" in protecting your gurus, speaking of allegiance to "Rupa-Raghunatha", etc -- I recognize these factors from the lectures of BV Narayana Maharaja.

Do I conjecture properly, or am I mistaken?

raga · May 30, 2002

I'll repeat two key questions I asked a while ago, along with a standard for an answer I expect to get:

QUESTION 1. Have you spoken in person with any prominent leader at Radha Kund, even if only for a few minutes?

ANSWER EXAMPLE 1. Yes, I have spoken with Baba so-and-so, and he said this and that, therefore my conclusions.

Alternative answer example: No, I have not spoken in person or met any Baba of Radhakund, and I do not really know what they are saying.

QUESTION 2. Could you define the meaning of siddha-pranali, as it is understood among traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavas?

ANSWER EXAMPLE 2. Yes, I can. It means this-and-that, and it is not required for us because of so-and-so reason.

Alternative answer example: No, to be honest, I don't have a clue of what it really means. I don't even know an exact translation for the term in English.

Looking forward hearing from you.

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-30-2002).]

BVI · May 30, 2002

Originally posted by raga:
Your rhetoric is increasing in volume, and I am amused to note how increasingly unfounded it proves to be. My guru is 75 years old, and certainly never met Bhaktisiddhanta, who departed in 1936 -- 66 years ago.

If you want to remain blind and pretend to be asleep, then no one can wake you up. I stated clearly that this is between your so-called guru padapadma and my guru parampara, and began 70 years ago. You Pandita and camp is just an extension of those who were rightly identified by my gurus as one of the many deviant sects of Gaudiya Vaishnavas. Naturally, such persons are continuing their multi-generational attack while pretending that everything is normal and such issues are beyond us. The fact is that the sahajiya deviations and the heart-hearted bitterness for being correctly identified as deviants continue to this day.

Would you propose that Bhaktisiddhanta confronted my guru when he was 11 years old? It is evident that the rest of your allegations are equally unfounded, since you are unable to say anything specific beyond heavily loaded rhethorics.

I am not saying your guru met Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. You guru is just one of the many victims like you of this poisoned camp of poisoners. You have all gone to Radha Kunda and become the cheated of the cheaters. You deserve one another. You get the leader you deserve.

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-30-2002).]

BVI · May 30, 2002

Originally posted by raga:

By the way, may I ask, BVI, are you by chance a follower of Sripad BV Narayana Maharaja? Much of what you have presented appears to draw from his preaching.

Using the term "kalpana" to depict meditation on siddha-deha during sadhana, speaking about "following in the fiery footsteps of Hanuman" in protecting your gurus, speaking of allegiance to "Rupa-Raghunatha", etc -- I recognize these factors from the lectures of BV Narayana Maharaja.

Do I conjecture properly, or am I mistaken?

First thing is you don't have a siddha deha. A siddha deha is your perfected spiritual body which is attained at the stage of perfection, not during novitiate sadhana. This is precisely the sahajiya deviation of trying to cheapen the process. You cannot have 11 bhavas until they are given to you at the stage of bhava.

You are cheated by your proud desire to be one of the elite who "actually knows" his so-called siddha-deha. That is your defect. As Srila Prabhupada points out (which you called ranting and cut and paste guruship--another sign of your offensive association through worship and submission to an offender) "they have manufactured a siddha deha". Siddha dehas are not widgets that come off the assembly line of the fertile imagination of a cheap show-bottle charlatan. It is all imagination, NOT siddha-deha. Your understanding of siddha deha is cheap and foolish.

You are not perfect, your meditation in not perfect, and the so called bhavas you are trying to cultivate are not bhava, nor do they constitute a perfected spiritual body. You have not been given any bhavas. It is all make believe, and Srila Prabhupada further points out that this whole concocted business is unauthorized according to Srila Rupa Gosvami (see NOD).

It may give one a hope of attaining the real thing in the future, but at present it must be plainly identified for what it is, not real, illusion, or imagination, kalpana.

Srila Prabhupada writes:

"In this connection, we should be careful about the so-called siddha-pranali. The siddha-pranali process is followed by a class of men who are not very authorized and who have manufactured their own way of devotional service. They imagine that they have become associates of the Lord simply by thinking of themselves like that. This external behavior is not at all according to the regulative principles. The so-called siddha-pranali process is followed by the präkrita-sahajiyä, a pseudosect of so-called Vaisnavas. In the opinion of Rüpa Gosvämi, such activities are simply disturbances to the standard way of devotional service."

NOD Eligibility for Spontaneous Devotional Service

You are in a camp of psuedo-Vaishnavas, who are blocked from attaining the real thing through the nama aparadha your camp has been perpetuating against Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, your ever well wisher, which makes you an offender of all real Vaishnavas. No real Vaishnava will accept you.

When you all come to his lotus feet begging and weeping for mercy, he will be merciful upon you and your path to prema will be opened. This is my objective and desire that you get the real thing. Don't continue cheating yourself out of some false sense of pride. Your path is not going to take you to prema. Accept the words of the bona fide acaryas and get back on the real path and taste nectar. Why remain stubborn in the face of all good arguments?

I have never attended a class, or studied the teachings of HHBNNM. I do not know him, nor do I associate with his followers. I have reached my conclusions and positions independently by personal experience and direct realization of these subjects following in the most merciful steps of my gurus. Might you now conclude that just perhaps there is something to what we are saying, which your pride it preventing your brain from accepting?

My guru will reveal himself to you and your real spiritual identity, when you sever your connections with the asat sanga you are presently victimized by. That is my blessing and guarantee for you and every other victim of the pandita, including the pandita himself. I wish you all well. I have been assigned by higher authorities to help you. But I can help you only if you allow me to help. Your attachment is strong and such harsh words are required to relieve you of them. You have inquired so I am obliged to serve you in this way, but not necessarily as you expect, demand or desire. Service means to ultimately benefit the master, even if that means to bring him displeasure. My duty is to correct you for your benefit and all that you represent. That is my thankless task and service. How else will you be saved?

abhi_the_great · May 31, 2002

BVI,

Control!! We cannot categorise all the people following the process of Sidha Pranali as cheaters. It was a part of tradition.

Some are truly realised. Some are trying to be. Its a process and so be it. We are following the vaidhi marga, bcos our guru has given us this path. And we are chaste to our guru. HDG knows how to take care of us without siddha-pranali or full-fledged raganuga bhakti. Those following with faith and sincerity thru siddha-pranali, by the instruction of their gurus, who are also dear to Krishna - let them follow.

As long as no one is trying to confuse SP followers by accusing of illegitimacy(without proper consideration and understanding) or incomplete knowledge and practice, there is no need to be inimical.

This thread seems to have flamed into my guru vs your guru conflicts. And such discussions never end in a nice way.

raga · May 31, 2002

You Pandita and camp is just an extension of those who were rightly identified by my gurus as one of the many deviant sects of Gaudiya Vaishnavas. Naturally, such persons are continuing their multi-generational attack while pretending that everything is normal and such issues are beyond us.

You do not have the faintest idea of who he is, what is his guru-parampara, and where it comes from. Simply residing at Radha Kunda, declared to be the topmost sacred place and the perfect location for bhajana, it does not a deviant make, does it? People who reside there are most fortunate.

First thing is you don't have a siddha deha. A siddha deha is your perfected spiritual body which is attained at the stage of perfection, not during novitiate sadhana. This is precisely the sahajiya deviation of trying to cheapen the process. You cannot have 11 bhavas until they are given to you at the stage of bhava.

If you bothered to read the Fifteenth Chapter of Harinama Cintamani , you would have noted that ekadasa-bhava (specifics of the siddha-deha) are given at the stage of shravana-dasha, while apana-dasha or svarupa-siddhi corresponds with the stage of bhava. There is a lot of bhajana in between.

Siddha dehas are not widgets that come off the assembly line of the fertile imagination of a cheap show-bottle charlatan. It is all imagination, NOT siddha-deha. Your understanding of siddha deha is cheap and foolish.

Sir, your rhetoric includes the element of "a priori condemnation". Do you know what is my understanding of the theology of siddha-deha?

From what you write, it appears that you think that "siddhi" is given at the time of giving ekadasa-bhava. Certainly not -- you receive eleven moods for which you aspire. As Narottama said, "What you contemplate on during sadhana, you will attain at the time of siddhi." Not that you have them at present, not at all.

In this connection, we should be careful about the so-called siddha-pranali.

We are also opposed to the so-called siddha-pranali, which is but a fiction of imagination. However, we embrace the conception of genuine siddha-pranali, which is present in all traditional Gaudiya lineages -- and indeed, to an extent in some Gaudiya Mathas as well (BV Narayana, BH Bon Maharajas).

Considering that you did not explain the concept "siddha pranali", I take it that you do not know what it actually means. If you do, please explain it in clear words, preferably in one or two paragraphs.

raga · May 31, 2002

My guru will reveal himself to you and your real spiritual identity, when you sever your connections with the asat sanga you are presently victimized by. That is my blessing and guarantee for you and every other victim of the pandita, including the pandita himself. I wish you all well. I have been assigned by higher authorities to help you.

O gift of gods, please reveal your mystical identity, since I cannot leap for the unknown! Who are you, O sage, and who are your gurus? Who are the gods who assigned you to this divine mission? Would they permit you to answer the two questions I submitted?

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-31-2002).]

Jagat · May 31, 2002

Bhaktivinoda says that we are for the most part chanting Namabhasa or Namaparadha. The pure Name comes only after much purification.

Does this mean that the spiritual master does not give the Holy Name?

raga · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by Jagat:

Bhaktivinoda says that we are for the most part chanting Namabhasa or Namaparadha. The pure Name comes only after much purification.

Does this mean that the spiritual master does not give the Holy Name?

The spiritual master gives you a pure diksa-mantra. Due to your contamination, you do not perceive the mantra-devata, but a semblance of Him only, perhaps even mere syllables. The spiritual master gives you an installed arca-vigraha. Due to your contamination, you only see a semblance of the original beauty. It is given to you, but you are unable to perceive.

Just like a small child, to whom his parents give a book or a watch. On account of his ignorance, the child cannot read the text or know the time by looking at them. This does not mean he does not possess a genuine book and a genuine watch. Only a veil of ignorance prevents him from reaping the full benefit from the matchless gift he was given.

kailasa · May 31, 2002

Guru may show Lord face to face.

BVI · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by raga:

O gift of gods, please reveal your mystical identity, since I cannot leap for the unknown! Who are you, O sage, and who are your gurus? Who are the gods who assigned you to this divine mission? Would they permit you to answer the two questions I submitted?



[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-31-2002).]

Is that the best you can do? Two "I know better than you" questions? I already answered your questions. Siddha pranali is fine. It is not my method. But I have no problem with it. I do have a problem with those like your guru who have nothing better to do at Radha Kunda than launch ingrateful offenses against my Gurus who were simply trying to give life back to your lifeless dried-up camp.

I know much more about your camp than you will want to admit. It is a very offensive and very dry group of people pretending to be very advanced and cheating people with a cheapened watered-down process that puffs up neophytes to think they are self-realized, and cheats them into believing that they now know who they are in the spiritual world because gurudev told me.

People are misled into rejecting their diksha gurus and into believing that the Pandita knows who I am in the spiritual world, and as my rasa guru he will find out from Radharani my name, form, and so on...then he will reveal the esoteric secret to me.

This is all cheating, bluffing, and snake-oil show-bottle charlatanism going on in the name of babajism, Radha Kunda bhajan, and topmost relishers of rasa. There is no potency whatsoever.

You cannot taste or even seriously endeavor for rasa until the stage of bhava when actual self-realization takes place, and I have seen the entire lot of groupies in your camp, and I can certify that not one of them is self-realized, not even the Pandita.

They are Bangladeshi and Bengali opportunists who came looking for money, power, position and women in a place where they shouldn't. Ask any Brajabasi, when economic conditions are poor in Orissa, the Orissan babajis become dominant, the same goes for Manipur, Bangladesh, and Bengal.

These are generally people who immaturely renounce family due to economic pressure and go to Radha Kunda with material desires to set up camp and live practically like grihastas in their secret world of social, economic and political struggle for power, prestige, position, land, money and women.

They defend their passionate empire building project of material assets by taking strength from the Gosvamis who introduced the kutir system. Their three story electric, watertank, and propane gas bhajan kutir worth crores of rupees or at least laks, is certainly not following in the footsteps of the real Gosvamis, who were living in abandoned crocodile holes or mud huts at best.

Better to go back to Bangladesh and sweep the streets of Dakka than to pass stool in Radha Kunda in your Pandita's septic tank which is leaking into the kund (go test the water if you don't believe me--I am sure you will find your guru's fecal matter there). The gosvamis used to go 2 kilometers away to pass stool. Never in Radha Kunda. Why are the present so-called Babajis too lazy to do that? No utsaha?

Therefore Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's proclamation remains, they are living in Naraka Kunda and living like kings with crores of rupees in the bank, sitting on their thrones in the their stool rooms, they reign supreme as the relishers of the topmost rasa.

Where is the love for Radharani? Where is the question of Bhajan? What is the point of Mahantism? What is use of discussing your philosophy or esoteric process? If you are passing stool on Radharani who non-different from Radha Kunda? Where did you pass stool when you were in Radha Kunda the last time?

How did you miss all these points?

At bhava you actually know who you are spiritually and everything happens naturally. Your camp's approach is a very artificial process and imposition on the intellect. The Pandita or Panda would be a more apt term, tells you for a nice donation of guru dakshina, your name is "Gunjamala Manjari" (or some other concocted name he invents), and later when you reach the stage of bhava and actually become self-realized, you find out that your name is actually Jyeshta Manjari, and so many other details about your identity are different from the one you were contemplating as a pretender.

It is not that by meditating on a concocted identity that that artificially imposed meditation is going to dictate your eternal identity, and that is why it is illegal to contemplate your siddha deha before you even have one (before bhava--the little detail you missed from Srila Bhaktivinoda's teachings you like to reference).

If you don't know it then you don't know it. Concocting a siddha deha, whether you do it or rely on your Pandita's concoction is illegal. You quote Srila Bhaktivinoda but you leave this point out, therefore you are simply trying to use him to support your nonsense.

If you have your own gurupadapadma then why are you and the Pandita taking strength from Bhaktivinoda Thakura? Why not just be chaste and stick to your own line and your own authorities and process? Why go outside. Chastity means to rely on your acaryas.

The answer to this anomoly of gurupadapadma unchastity lies in the fact that you and the Pandita are launching a dirty political smear campaign against ISKCON and Gaudiya Math (who continue to represent Srila Bhaktisiddhanta in identifying your camp as deviant offenders and unauthorized sahajiya pretenders) in order to get your revenge and gain followers and their resources.

You are quoting other guru lines that you criticize and disrespect like some kind of prostitute who will jump into bed with anyone or like a politician who will use anything for the sake of political expediency. Why do you need Bhaktivinoda Thakura to validate your philosophy, process, or anything else? Why even quote him?

You are shamelessly trying to use him and engage him in your service loke hard-hearted materialists, which is precisely the meaning of prakrita (Materialistic persons who imitate the Vaishnavas and dress like Rupa Gosvami even though they are lower than Jagai and Madhai).

Abhi asked me to control myself (or maybe he was telling me to control you, I am not sure) so I will leave it at this. If you can't figure out my answer to your little *gotcha* questions from all that I have presented so far, there is no need to entertain you or try to help you beyond this. Now you have to decide.

If you were even half sincere you would investigate my claims and find them to be true, though I suspect you already know what I know and are just pretending to be asleep to these issues of your Pandita's aparadha as a co-conspirator in infiltrating and terrorising innocent ISKCON devotees hearts with your vicious poison against Srila Bhaktisiddhanta.

Audarya lila · May 31, 2002

Dear BVI,

Are you actually ever going to answer any direct question or are you simply going to go on with the charade? Offender this, offender that - blah, blah, blah....

If you have anything SPECIFIC to say, say it - otherwise remain silent on the matter because from the unbiased observer point of view it is you who is simply smearing your filthy ideas everywhere without any substance to back up such claims.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta had some legitimate concerns about Gaudiya Vaishnavism and how it could be spread worldwide and he made adjustments accordingly. He also spoke out strongly against imitationists - but that critique was never meant to be a blanket condemnation. Just like Srila Prabhupada criticized some of his god brothers for specific reasons at specific times, but this was certainly never meant to be a blanket condemnation to be taken up by his neophyte disciples. Try to catch the substance. It becomes ugly when someone confuses the form for the substance.

Raga has been very polite and has simply asked you for SPECIFICS. Stop with the grand standing already.

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

BVI · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

Dear BVI,

Are you actually ever going to answer any direct question or are you simply going to go on with the charade? Offender this, offender that - blah, blah, blah....

If you have anything SPECIFIC to say, say it - otherwise remain silent on the matter because from the unbiased observer point of view it is you who is simply smearing your filthy ideas everywhere without any substance to back up such claims.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta had some legitimate concerns about Gaudiya Vaishnavism and how it could be spread worldwide and he made adjustments accordingly. He also spoke out strongly against imitationists - but that critique was never meant to be a blanket condemnation. Just like Srila Prabhupada criticized some of his god brothers for specific reasons at specific times, but this was certainly never meant to be a blanket condemnation to be taken up by his neophyte disciples. Try to catch the substance. It becomes ugly when someone confuses the form for the substance.

Raga has been very polite and has simply asked you for SPECIFICS. Stop with the grand standing already.

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

Specifics:

The current person claiming to be the legal heir apparent to Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami's property has been:

1) witnessed by aspiring siksha disciples (who later rejected him because of his offense)that he:

a. demanded that they relinquish all connections with their bona fide ISKCON diksha gurus, the guru parampara coming from ISKCON, and take reinitiation from him. Srila Prabhupada says, no Vaishnava will accept such a person who reinitiates a disciple of a guru who has not fallen down.

b. blasphemed Srila Bhaktisiddhanta saying that he did not have a diksha guru,

c. that ISKCON has no guru parampara,

d. that ISKCON devotees are all melecchas,

and need I go further?

e. highly suspected implication in the murder and disappearance of other babajis who became popular and thus powerful contenders for the coveted position of mahanta (controller of crores of rupees, followers, and properties).

f. As I said already, they are constructing septic tanks on the bank of Radha Kunda and passing stool and urine there, which is leaking out into the kundas (test the water in a lab for yourself).

g. Waging political war to keep ISKCON from acquiring property in Radha Kunda.

h. and other envious acts of enmity directed against ISKCON and its devotees.

How much more do you want? Just go and investigate it for yourself. Certainly their program is not something that will be accepted or replicated worldwide, so there is no real threat of them colonizing the minds of innocent people, and really, if they were not making such attacks against my gurus, I could care less what they do or believe. They would just be another bogus deviant form of Hinduism to preach to. But they are satisfied with being that, and they have openly become enemies of my gurus. My hands are tied. You can sit silently or attack me (for all I care) to defend them, that just makes one more of them for me to rant against. One more is not a problem. I can take on as many as you can send.

If you want to share in the reactions awaiting this camp, and support this nonsense, then keep on calling it grand standing. I will continue to fire back. I have no qualms about defending my acaryas. If you feel the need to defend the sahajiya party, then why not openly admit to joining their camp? Which camp do you belong to? And you are so sure you have discerned the form and substance of Raga's camp to dismiss my factual statements as "ulgy undeserved ranting"? That only proves to me you are in illusion, and too liberal for the sake of your own devotion to at least my Gurus (maybe you are loyal to someone else).

This new age impersonal pc/pc (politically correct/personal computer) liberalism in the face of guru aparadha is called by Srila Rupa Gosvami the one way ticket to "The Nectar of No Devotion" (NNOD). You can believe me or not, it doesn't matter who you side with. I have my service to render, like it or not. If the other party is ready to surrender and repair their rhetoric, then you will find I have many nicer things to say. Like I said, I will not share with animals, especially wild ones. They are not meant for religion or good argument, for them I carry a stick. That's for their benefit and training (taming) and my protection (of my devotion). If I were a king, I would have their tounges cut out for the blasphemy made against my gurus. Lucky for them I am not. These rascals are only thriving due to an absence of a real government who should challenge and curb these animals in the guise of men by force if necessary.

Explain to me why a babaji would need to get a permit to possess automatic weapons in Radha Kunda for self-defense? That is something else you can research the next time you go for bhajan.

Q. Does Lord Caitanya prefer the Uzi or the Ingram?

A. 9mm Prabhu, for the nine processes of devotion.

The 21st century babaji warlords of Radha Kunda. You can take the monkey out of the jungle, but you can't take the jungle out of the monkey. Hairless and hairy monkeys abound in Radha Kunda.

raga · May 31, 2002

Is that the best you can do? Two "I know better than you" questions? I already answered your questions.

No, you did not. You did not tell me whether you have met any babaji of Radha Kund in person, and you did not tell me what siddha-pranali means.

People are misled into rejecting their diksha gurus and into believing that the Pandita knows who I am in the spiritual world, and as my rasa guru he will find out from Radharani my name, form, and so on...then he will reveal the esoteric secret to me.

To begin with, the details f one's siddha deha are not revealed to the guru by Radharani Herself. This only shows you do not know the theology of siddha-pranali as it exists at Radha Kund.

They are Bangladeshi and Bengali opportunists who came looking for money, power, position and women in a place where they shouldn't. Ask any Brajabasi, when economic conditions are poor in Orissa, the Orissan babajis become dominant, the same goes for Manipur, Bangladesh, and Bengal.

These are generally people who immaturely renounce family due to economic pressure and go to Radha Kunda with material desires to set up camp and live practically like grihastas in their secret world of social, economic and political struggle for power, prestige, position, land, money and women.

According to the Gita, there are four classes of pious men who surrender to the Lord. The suffering and the ones in need of wealth are two among them. I am yet to meet a person who is already a pure devotee before taking up the path.

Their three story electric, watertank, and propane gas bhajan kutir worth crores of rupees or at least laks, is certainly not following in the footsteps of the real Gosvamis, who were living in abandoned crocodile holes or mud huts at best.

Govindaji Mandir, Madan Mohan Mandir... Built by wealthy householders inspired by the Gosvamis' devotion.

Go to Radha Kund and see how the leading Babajis live. It is not exactly what you would call luxurious. Far less luxurious than the buildings and facilities of Gaudiya Matha (what to speak of ISKCON) sannyasis and brahmacaris.

Better to go back to Bangladesh and sweep the streets of Dakka than to pass stool in Radha Kunda in your Pandita's septic tank which is leaking into the kund (go test the water if you don't believe me--I am sure you will find your guru's fecal matter there). The gosvamis used to go 2 kilometers away to pass stool. Never in Radha Kunda. Why are the present so-called Babajis too lazy to do that? No utsaha?

Sling the mud. Even better, sling the stool. Welcome to the 21st century, where people can quickly finish their morning duties near their residence.

As far as allowing the tanks' to leak to Radha Kund, this is an absurd proposal. Better worry about the pilgrims and their little kids who bathe there, since many of them don't have proper respect to the sacred Kunda, and don't know how to act accordingly.

To keep up the purity of Radha Kund water despite the numerous pilgrims' visiting and bathing there, the pond is emptied on regular intervals, and the cleansing took place again just a few months ago.

Therefore Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's proclamation remains, they are living in Naraka Kunda and living like kings with crores of rupees in the bank, sitting on their thrones in the their stool rooms, they reign supreme as the relishers of the topmost rasa.

Certainly it is Naraka Kunda to you, if all you can see is stool and exploitation. Others go there and see the topmost place in the universe, and are overjoyed and immersed in bhajan in the association of saints. I suggest you never go there in your present state of mind.

The Pandita or Panda would be a more apt term, tells you for a nice donation of guru dakshina, your name is "Gunjamala Manjari" (or some other concocted name he invents), and later when you reach the stage of bhava and actually become self-realized, you find out that your name is actually Jyeshta Manjari, and so many other details about your identity are different from the one you were contemplating as a pretender.

Ananta Das Pandit never asked for daksina from me. When I tried to offer some, he refused to accept any, and told me that my bhajan is what makes him happy.

It is not that by meditating on a concocted identity that that artificially imposed meditation is going to dictate your eternal identity, and that is why it is illegal to contemplate your siddha deha before you even have one (before bhava--the little detail you missed from Srila Bhaktivinoda's teachings you like to reference).

You are yet to present the exact reference (with original text, please), which sounds like it is much in contrast with the rest of the Thakura's writings in this regard (viz. my references earlier on pancha-dasha etc.).

If you have your own gurupadapadma then why are you and the Pandita taking strength from Bhaktivinoda Thakura? Why not just be chaste and stick to your own line and your own authorities and process? Why go outside. Chastity means to rely on your acaryas.

"Chastity means to rely on your acaryas." And therefore the Gosvamis set the example, quoting from the works of the different sampradaya-acaryas in their works (ie. Sat-Sandarbha).

Bhaktivinoda is not "outside", he is a rupanuga-vaishnava. Even he belongs to Jahnava parivara, just as I do.

sex in the spiritual world?

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