Bhakti v/s Jnana Yoga..Is this conflict necessary

[radhe]

Have read articles & posts attacking advaita.. Reading such articles.. made me wonder if such debates were really necessary.. Truly realised masters have always said that these were just different paths leading to the divine.. Each person chooses a path as per his nature... Instead of just concentrating on krishna, why do we waste time debating about trivial things.. like this??? Shouldnt we just attempt to live in krishna conciousness. isnt that what we should aspire to do?

didnt mean to advise.. just a passing thought..

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Instead of just concentrating on krishna, why do we waste time debating about trivial things.. like this???

Though externally it looks quite trivial, in reality it is not such a small difference of opinion. Otherwise why have acharya's such as Ramanuja, Madhva, Vallabha, and Chaitanya spent so much effort debating the conclusions of advaita (absolute oneness with God)? The path of bhakti accepts the supreme position of Lord Krishna over the individual living entitiy; the jiva-atma is eternally inferior and subserviant to the paramatma. Only then does the process of surrender and bhakti become relevant. To deny the dependence of the jiva on Paramatma is to deny the opportunity of eternal bhakti to the Lord.

 

Some schools of advaita go as far as to condemn the personal form of Lord Krishna as a product of maya. They conclude that when Brahman is covered by ignorance in the mode of goodness (sattva-guna) it becomes an avatara such as Krishna. Devotees of Lord Krishna can never accept such a concept, as they understand from the scriptures that Krishna is eternally situated in transcendence, beyond the gunas of maya. Krishna declares Himself to be the controller of the maya-shakti in the Gita (mayadhyakshena prakriti), and throughout the Gita He establishes His eternal supreme position.

 

The path of bhakti, which according to the Bhagavatam is the eternal nature of the soul, cannot be followed sincerely without acknowledging the eternally supreme position of Lord Krishna and the eternal dependence of the Jiva Atma on Him.

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-17-2002).]

[radhe]

Dear Sir... Was delighted to read about Krishna in your reply... I am in full agreement with your viewpoint.. Based on whatever i have read.. the opinion that i have formed is this .. God is like a coin.. One side of the coin is the Impersonal Brahman.. and the other side of the coin is our own Sri Krishna. ( the personal God ).

God is said to be omnipotent.. Hence the advaitin's argument that Krishna is not the supreme divine..is as irrelevant as the bhakta's argument that the advaitins are incorrect. Both these viewpoints are correct in themselves... Surely God could be our sweet Krishna, the Impersonal Divine and much more than all this.. Otherwise he would nt be omnipotent..

Was reminded of an interesting story while reading your reply.. A dvaitin and an Adviatin were having an argument...

The dvaitin said.. "I exist and I will serve my Lord Krishna forever".. To this the advaitin says "Everything is the impresonal bramhan" To that the dvaitin replies "You advaitins are very arrogant..cos you dont recognise the lord.."

Th advaitin replies "All that exists in the universe is the lord Krishna.. You are the one who says that I too am there.. and Lord Krishna too is there.. Wonder who is more arrogant"...

Shouldnt our ideal be to merge with the eternal Lord Krishna who is present everywhere...

If somebody has a wrong partisan notion.. why do we have to condemn it? What is our true business in the world.. The worship of Sri Krishna.. Why do we get concerned of what the others say/think..?

To summarise, my opionion is this :

The people who argue are ones who havent had the experience.. The one who has had that experience ( of Krishna/Brahman ) does nt talk anymore..cos he knows the truth by experience...

Please correct me if i am wrong.

 

 

 

[shvu]

 

Radhe,

 

Advaita, Dvaita, etc are all based on the notion that they are the *only* true system. For instance, Advaita says no individuality exists after Liberation. Dvaita opposes this view and states duality is eternal.

 

How can both be correct at the same time? It is easy to say all systems are right, but the fact is they are not. Either, only one of them is right or else all of them are wrong.

 

Cheers

 

[karthik_v]

May be there is truth in all systems. Since we live in a 3 dimensional world, our perception is limited to our understanding of this limited reality. Rg veda says that the hymns of the vedas exist at 4 levels and only one can be understood even by the seers. So, the argument that the Supreme has both the personal and impersonal aspects is correct.

 

Personally, I find the path of bhakti yoga more enjoyable and easy to follow. Even advaitins cannot do without bhakti.

 

For most part, a neophyte is better off following the teachings of a bonafide acarya with whom he is most comfortable with. It is very essential to resolve philosophical doubts, but it is best not to get into an argumentative mood.

 

Then, don't ask me if I am the right person to tender this advice

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Personally, I find the path of bhakti yoga more enjoyable and easy to follow. Even advaitins cannot do without bhakti.

This is certainly a relevant point. Bhakti is so spiritually attractive that even advaitis (who do not accept the eternal reality of Krishna) find themselves attracted to the performance of bhakti.

 

In the Puranas we find the stories of the four Kumaras, and of Shuka Muni, all of whom were liberated souls situated in Brahman. They were fully absorbed in the impersonal feature of the absolute, but when they came in contact with bhakti, they immediately took to devotional service and became great devotees of the Lord.

[karthik_v]

Also, if you see the writings of Kanchi Paramacarya, he glorifies Narayana all the time and guides people to worship Narayana and Tulasi devi. Since this is recommended by a highly conservative and traditional advaita school, it is obvious that bhakti is the most critical vehicle in virtually every school, be it Vaishnava or Advaita.

[Guest guest]

I distinctly remember a mail that a wonderful devotee sent convincing me about Krishna. He convinced me by quoting Sankara. As Srila Prabhupada said, we are indebted to acharyas like Sanakara, Ramanuja etc. because they have given us so much knowledge.

 

If Sankara can be criticized for word jugglery and argued with by an ordinary person, why cant the same be done about vaishnava acharyas ? While vaishnava acharyas are protected from vaishnava aparadha, sankarites are not. Why even Adi Sankara is not ? This I am not saying because I was born in to a smartha family even though it might have helped me understand that.

 

 

[sha]

I distinctly remember a mail that a wonderful devotee sent convincing me about Krishna. He convinced me by quoting Sankara. As Srila Prabhupada said, we are indebted to acharyas like Sanakara, Ramanuja etc. because they have given us so much knowledge.

I too received this in e-mail from another Krishna devotee. Posting this for others to enjoy:

 

Namaste.

The foremost Advaita acarya Adi Jagadguru Sri Shankara Bhagavatpada

said, when one of his desciples questioned him:

 

"mumukSunNA kiM tvaritaM vidheyam?"

 

"What should the seeker who is desirous to attain Salvation do

immediately?

 

Acarya's reply:

 

"satsangatir nirmamateza bhaktiH"

 

Shakaracarya replied that the bonds of material attachment should be

broken, and the mind attached to God and the aspirants should seek

the Association of Saints.

 

The desciple again asked:

 

"kiM karma kRtvA na zocanIyaM?"

 

"What is that work which a wise man performs and does not repent?"

Sri Shankaracarya immediately said:

 

"kAmAri-kaMsAri- samarcanAkhyam"

 

"One who is devoted to God is carefree."

 

In fact Acarya Shankara, the unrivalled propounder of Advaita

Vedanta, advised his own Mother practise devotion to Lord Krishna,

and blessed her with the Vision of the Lord. Not only that, listen to

his next proclamation -

 

"kAmyopAsana yArthayanty anudinaM kincit phalaM svepsitam,

kecit svargam athApavargam apare yogAdi yajnAdibhiH,

asmAkaM yadunandanAMghri yugala dhyAnAvadhAnArthinAm,

kiM lokena damena kiM nRpatinA svargApavargaizca kiM?"

 

"Those who waste their time for the attainment of celestial joys or

Liberation (mukti- apavarga) are FOOLS!

I DO NOT WANT any of THAT!

I only desire to remain engrossed in the Sweet Remembrance of the

Lotus Feet of Lord Krishna. What is the need for heaven or Mukti to

Prema Bhaktas of Lord?"

 

Thus Sri Shankara appears to consider all objects, including final

Liberation as insignificant in comparison to constant Loving

Meditation of the Lotus Feet of Lord Krishna.

 

The verses he used to describe the transcendental beauty and

attraction of Lord Krishna are exquisite and reveal how great Saintly

Devotee he actually was.

 

"yamunA nikaTa taTa sthita

vrindAvana kAnane mahAramye

kalpa druma talabhUmau

caraNaM caraNopari sthApya

tishTaMtaM ghana nIlaM

sva tejasA bhAsayanta miha vizvaM

pitAmbara paridhAnaM

candana karpUra lipta sarvAGgam."

 

Lord Krishna is standing with one leg crossed over the other, under

the wish-yielding Kalpa tree, in a most beautiful flowery bower in

Vrindavana, situated near the banks of the river Yamuna.

 

His complexion as a dark rain-ladden cloud, illuminates the whole

world with its Luster. He is dressed in yellow silk Garments and all

parts of His transcendental body are anointed with the paste of

sandalwood and camphor.

 

"Akarna pUrna netraM

kuNDala yuga maNDita zravaNaM

manda smita mukha kamalaM

sa kaustubho dAra maNi hAraM

valayAGgulIya kAdyA nujjvala yantaM svalankArAn

gala vilulita vana mAlaM sva tejasApAsta kali kAlaM."

 

His large captivating eyes seem to reach almost to His ears which are

adorned with glittering earrings. A sweet, gentle, enchanting smile

blooms from His lotus face. He is wearing jewelery made of precious

stones, pearls and the celestial jem, Kaustubha.

The radiance of His transcendental Body enhances the splendour of the

golden bracelets, rings and the other ornaments present on Him. As

the vanamala (garland made of five heavenly fragrant flowers) around

His neck, is gently swaying to and fro, His very brilliance and

beauty drives away the sinful effects of the dark age of Kali.

 

"gunjAravAli kalitaM

gunjA puGjAnvite zirasi

bhuGjAnaM saha gopaiH

kunjAn tar vartinaM hariM smarata.

 

mandAra puSpa vAsita

mandAnila sevita parAnandaM

mandAkinI yuta padaM namata

mahAnanda daM mahA puruSaM."

 

The curly locks of His dark hair surrounded by the vines and fragrant

flowers of the Divine bower, are attracting the intoxicated, noisy,

bumble bees.

Fondly remember and contemplate upon Lord Hari Who is frolicking in

the bower along with His cowherd playmates and eating His midday meal

joyfully.

 

Offering worship and prayers, meditate upon that Supreme Personality,

Sri Krishna, the Bestower of the highest Bliss!

He is fanned by the gentle breeze, scented with the fragrance of

heavenly 'mandAra' flowers, and His lotus feet are attended by the

sacred celestial river, Ganges.

 

"surabhIkRta digvalayaM

surabhi zatair AvritaH paritaH

surabhIti kSapaNa mahA

sura bhImaM yAdavaM namata."

 

His Divine fragrance pervades all around as He is encircled by

hundreds of blessed cows who are attracted by His captivating beauty

and soul-stirring ethereal music pouring from His Flute.

 

Let us offer our humble obeisance to Beloved Lord, Sri Krishna, the

Descendent of Yadu dynasty, Who even drives away the fears of

heavenly gods by terrifying and conquering the demoniac forces with

His Supreme Valor.

 

-'Prabodha Sudhakara'- Adi Jagadguru Sri Shankaracarya Bhagavatpada

 

Saints often preach extraordinary philosophies, depending upon the

circumstances of time and place.

We find that Lord Buddha went to the EXTENT of DENYING the AUTHORITY

of the Vedas and EVEN GOD.

In the SAME WAY, the ADVAITA Philosophy propounded by

Sri Sankaracharya was MAINLY NECESSITATED by the AGE in which HE

LIVED.

 

He had to FIGHT a battle AGAINST BUDDHISM and RITUALISM which were

gradually PRAMOTING ATHEISM.

 

He REFUTED BOTH these BELIEFS with His GREAT intellectual SKILL, but

HIMSELF continued to compose MANY poems in PRAISE of Lord Krishna.

 

They SHOW the EXTENT to which HIS DEVOTIONAL HEART YEARNED for the

SIGHT of HIS BELOVED LORD.

From this you can see, how DIFFERENT His practice was from His

teaching.

 

(An excerpt from 'Prema Rasa Siddhant' by Sri Rama Kripaluji Maharaj)

 

[sha]

Sri Shankara Jayanti (appearance day) was celebrated on May 17, 2002. There was a nice article posted on another board by harshanand. Interested devotees can read at:

 

spiritualecstasyandmeditation/message/3670

 

 

[Guest guest]

how long do u know maharajji?

 

[Visitor]

Radhe, i agree with you. There are definetly more things out there that our simple minds cannot comprehend. Our gurus and acharyas tell us as much knowledge as we need to know. But unfortunetly a lot of big headed people claim to know which path is right and which path is wrong.

 

My philosophy is this, do not criticise others. Learn to follow your heart. Paramatma residing in our hearts will guide the way to what is good for us.

 

Proof of this? remember to the time how you all got started in devotional service. Do you honestly believe that it was a mere coincidence? No! it was Paramatma's grace that brought you all here.

[Guest guest]

I always get confused when Sankaracharya is related to Bhakti. If everything is Maya for certian, then why do advaitins prescribe bhakthi? INstead of wasting time continuing in Maya, why not meditate on realizing that the self will dissolve into nothingness revealing only Brahman?

 

Even when the reference is made a 'Sankara Bhagavatpada', there is 'Sankara' who is at the feet of 'God' which reflects duality.

 

Do all advaitins really beleive that everyone is Brahman deceived by Maya? and Bhakthi is only the kindergarten.