Conversion in Orissa

[karthik_v]

A concerned friend of mine was explaining yesterday that the Christian missionaries, with huge funds, are converting many villagers in Orissa who are poverty-stricken. He said that there are villages where you won't find a Hindu. Can someone with experience in Orissa [J N Das perhaps] throw some light on this?

[theist]

karthik,

 

I am curious by what is meant by the word 'convert'.

 

Have they renounced their faith in Lord Jagannatha?In Deity worship?

 

Or perhaps they are just feigning it to please those that bring the food.

 

I am curious as to how deep it goes.

 

Jaya Jesus! Jaya Jagannatha!

[abhi_the_great]

Convert means, the Christians tell you that this idols and all are simply representations of satan. And you have to throw them out and smash their faces. If there is any idol in your hse then you will be mentally tortured by the Christian Missionaries.

[theist]

 

 

abhi_the_great,

 

Mentally tortured?Yes I know how that might work.I have experienced some of that here in the USA.I avoid them for the most part.

 

But how do they know if someone has a Deity or idol in their homes?Do people literally come out and smash the Deities in the street or what?

 

These must not be Catholics as they also have forms in their churches.

 

Of course anyone has the right to change their beliefs.

[karthik_v]

Theist prabhuji,

 

Indian society accords less privacy than the US society. So, if you have idols at home, everyone knows of it. I was told that both Catholics and Protestants convert. They also indulge in vicious campaigns against Hinduism. They teach the poor that Hindu scriptures advocate untouchability. Then they entice them with money.

 

An Oriya friend of mine, a courageous and glorious human being and a wonderful devotee of Lord Jagannatha, once threw a cart load of Bible into the gutter. The missionaries had them for free distribution. He warned them that they would be stripped naked if they ever again came in his sight. They ran away. At that time I thought that he was very crude. Now I think that he was right.

[Gauracandra]

This is simply the beginning. India is the big target of Christian missionaries of all denominations. Its 1 Billion people, making it second only to China, but a whole lot more accessible. The Christians are playing it smart, they are going to the excluded and discriminated against peoples, and converting them. Think about it. If you are a low caste person, or an untouchable, and you have no social support, and along comes a Christian with the message of Christ (which is for the downtrodden) you would be very receptive. The fact that many are finding it an attractive alternative means that the traditional religious heirarchy is not providing to the spiritual and yes material needs of the people. In many ways its hard to blame some of these folks even though the tactics of some Christians is less than praiseworthy.

[theist]

karthikji,

 

Prabhu, your friend sounds just like the people I try to avoid.Trust your first instincts, very crude was right.Same with the racists that won't allow Westerners into Temple Jagannatha.

 

Sectarian Hindu fanatics are the same as any other fanatics in my book.Your friend probably read from Canakya in school;yet he throws Solomen's proverbs in the dirt.Sectarian fanaticism is the greatest enemy to progress.

 

The difference is in the use of violence to promote one's views.In this I admit the Muslims seem to revel and excel.

 

Offering one's philosophy to others is a natural thing.If that is trying to convert so be it.There will always be people changing faiths and adopting someone else's religious garb and customs.It's just a phase the soul travels through on its way to Krsna(God) consciousness.Nothing to fear.

 

theist

[bhaktajoy]

Dear Theist Prabhuji,

Yes you are right.The Bible is true, but it has to be read spiritually in order to understand it. If we read it prayerfully, it talks to us and it reveals itself to us.

 

I have wondered many times why don't they allow westerners into Jaganattha mandir?I am so unfortunate I never had the fortune to visit the Lord.

 

Are you in an American body?No offense just curious

 

Hari Bol!

 

[This message has been edited by bhaktajoy (edited 05-21-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by bhaktajoy (edited 05-21-2002).]

[bhaktajoy]

Lord Jesus Christ is another sweet personality of Godhead.He has a great sense of humor as many near-death experiencers have testified.The mission of Jesus in this world was to teach love.

 

We are gonna meet them someday!

 

 

[theist]

bhaktajoy,

 

No Indian body this time around.

 

Srila Prabhupada boycotted Jagannatha Mandir because his disciples weren't allowed in.

 

Myself I wouldn't press the point as it may disturb others minds.Our example in this regard is Haridas Thakur.Not that we are anywhere close to him,but I mean he took the humble position and in so doing pleased Lord Caitanya.

 

Haribol

[theist]

I can't help but think of Haridas Thakur when I think of Lord Jesus Christ and the other way around.

 

Interesting similarities in their lives.Personifications of tolerance,even up to allowing their apparent deaths at the hands of the govt. men after being beaten in the marketplace. Both showed the resurrection pastime as well.

[abhi_the_great]

HH Radhanath Maharaj described during this yrs GBC meeting that, during the ratha-yatra festival, on the 2nd day all the ISKCON devotees were given the ropes of the Rath. He said, it seemed like only ISKCON devotees were around, all over the place. I also heard that Maharaj was give the chance to climb up the chariot and perform some offerings to Lord Jaganath.

[abhi_the_great]

On conversion in India, I read an interesting note from a muslim. It said if the caste based reservation was not present in India, all the lower castes wd have converted to Christianity and Islam by now.

 

I am not sure how bad the treatment to the lower castes wd have been. There is always a subtle level of differentiation in the blood of all Indians to date. When I think back, it seems that my closest friends were mostly from my own caste or higher. Its also true that in Kerala majority of the students belong to my caste (Nair). There were Christians and Muslims and Lower Castes too. All the lower castes were usually one group, though in hostels and colleges we mingled easily with anyone and everyone. In hostels we easily shared the same room even with christians or open minded muslims. But we wd be little reserved(not much) to share with students of lower castes. Its become kind of a second nature. But its an impediment to spreading and preaching Sri Chaitanya's message. Hindus shd put in a conscious effort to remove such body based discriminations.

 

There are few dalits(lower castes), who feel that Sri Sankara is the main person to blame for such caste based discriminations. Many are very anti-Sankara in their outlook. Anyway, he was pleased when I posted to him Sri Chaitanya's message "kiba vipra kiba nyasi sudra kene naya". But their anti-brahmin feeling was really painful.

[bhaktajoy]

Interesting...

Theist Prabhuji may I ask how did you come to Vedic teachings?Please don't mind it's in my nature to ask questions

 

Yes blessed are the humble and meek for they shall inherit the kingdom of God!

 

God bless u.

[theist]

bhaktajoy,

 

Same as most.Met a sankirtana party, became attracted by the sound of Krsna's name,read some books.You?

 

I wonder what those that oppose'conversions' think about the missionary activities of the sankirtana movement into areas where there is already an established religion.

 

 

[Rati]

In many parts of India, Christian missionaries use the approach of converting one family member, then getting that person to go into the homes of relatives and smash the Deities. So much for respecting the faith of others. And we wonder why the Hindus want to throw them out of the country.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I think this topic has been discussed once before on another thread (maybe last year?).

 

The Christian missionaries in India target the poor, uneducated and helpless members of society. In Orissa, they specifically target the Adivasi community (a tribal community). This community historically has not been provided educational facilities, and as a result they are naturally the poorest segment of society, mostly working as field workers for land owners.

 

A lot of our food relief activities are to members of this community, as they are usually the ones who need it the most.

 

The Christian missionarie's only real aim is to get these people to eat beef, as that destroys any link they have with Hinduism. Their preaching is always about how we should eat cows, and how stupid Hindus foolishly worship the cows we should be eating.

 

The missionaries have lots of funding from the west (as India is still seen as the land to be conquered for Christ). They offer some material facilities to people who will agree to convert, and they supposedly give them a status in society (they are no longer outcastes) - but this is not actually true, as even converted Christians will only marry in their previous Hindu caste (i.e. they will find another converted Christian who belonged to the same caste).

 

These poor villagers are really just being used by the missionaries to show to the western world, "Look at these heathens we converted..."

 

Of course as far as teachings go, they really don't give them any. Just get them to eat beef, and visit the local church on Sunday to receive some free gifts.

 

The tribals who are converted usually don't care anything about Christianity. They are only interested in getting something to eat, or some other material facility. If someone would come tomorrow to offer free XYZ to the Hindus, they would all convert again, just to get some material gain.

 

It is really meaningless and pointless, both on the part of the converters, and on the part of the missionaries. The missionaries are really not making anyone love Christ.

 

Once the missionaries have a footing within a tribal community (who live in settlements), they then stiff arm everyone else there to convert through the new converts, "If we all convert the church will come here and provide us with jobs and education, etc."

 

Being in such a state of poverty, they eventually comply with the requests and undergo a meaningless ritual of baptism, just so the missionary can send some photos back to the west showing how the foolish heathen hindus have become Christians.

 

The missionaries tactics also involce deriding Hinduism in very vulgar manners. Something like what you see on those anti-hindu sites ran by muslims. How the gods are immoral, how they did this, they did that, etc. All lies of course. But an uneducated tribal really couldn't care less about these things, especially when there is no food to eat; nor do they have the knowledge to debate these points. When I say uneducated, these areas are 100% uneducated, which means for example out of an entire village of 300 people, not a single one has ever gone to school. They do not know reading or writing, and really just manage to get a little food to eat if they are lucky.

 

Of course the ultimate fault rests on the Hindu community for not reaching our to help needy members of society. There is so much greed, envy and corruption in India, that it is a ripe ground for converting exploited minority groups.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-21-2002).]

[karthik_v]

Here is more on the modus operandi of the Christian missionaries:

 

Initially, they land in India with a lot of western funds and set up a small dispensary or school. Indian government accords minority status to Christians and Muslims and their insitutions are paid for by the givernment. The same privilege is not available to the Hindus. In these minority institutions, Christians can employ 50% of their people and only the remaining 50% is thrown open.

 

With government money, the school is built and teachers employed. This is the bait with which they convert the poorest tribals. It is not spiritualism.

 

BTW, caste exists in church very much. For example, in Trichy, Tamilnadu, there are seperate Brahmin Christian congregation. Even their marriages are celebrated with a fire ceremony in the church There are seperate churches for untouchables.

 

It is all money at the end of the day.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

To add one more aspect to this:

 

The churches entice landless tribals with the promise of free land. How they do this is they tell the newly converted Christians to encroach on public land near to their church. With a large number of such encroachers being backed by the church, the government is scared to act against them (since they are a minority, and minorities should be worshipped as God in secular India).

 

I becomes a powerful method for converting the poor. If they become Christians, they will be allowed to encroach land, and the Church and Christian community will back them and protect them from the government.

[theist]

This minority status sounds like this foolish affirmative action program that is in the US.

 

I am still curious to know if these are Catholic institutions or not.It sounds like the invasion of our TV evangelists who have been cheating the American public for decades.

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by theist:

This minority status sounds like this foolish affirmative action program that is in the US.

 

I am still curious to know if these are Catholic institutions or not.It sounds like the invasion of our TV evangelists who have been cheating the American public for decades.

Catholics, Protestants, Pentecoast, SDA, Baptist, Methodist...you name it. The only difference between Catholics and others is that the Catholics don't publish filthy stuff against Hinduis. By filthy stuff I mean use of foul language. Others will print material on why Hindu women worship the giant sized phallus of Lord Siva. Catholics won't stoop to that level. But, they are the most dangerous because of their clout in the government and the media. How many of you have ever wondered as to how a criminal like Teresa has been made into a saint by the media? Catholics own most institutions among the Christians.

 

As J N Das said, Hindus should own up responsibility. How many of us donate for just Hindu causes? When was it last that you are I wrote a check for Ramakrishna mission hospital or Sankara mutt's Hindu mission hospital? Why go that far? When was it last that you and I wrote a check for J N Das, who is feeding the very same poor tribals of Orissa? I am sure that I took my family to eat ice cream last Sunday and spent $ 20, but the thought of J N Das and his poor tribal children never crossed my mind as I relished that 3 scoop sundae. I bet J N Das would have served 100 children with prasadam with that kind of money. Unless we act, the missionaries will rule.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I am still curious to know if these are Catholic institutions or not.It sounds like the invasion of our TV evangelists who have been cheating the American public for decades.

Yup, those are the ones. It's mostly the less traditional American churches who are doing this. In Kerala and Tamil Nadu they even have bogus tele evangelists who do miracle mass healings. The lady walks up on a crutch and suddenly he touches her forhead and she is... HEALED!! Be gone Satan, I damn thee. In the name of Jesus leave the body of this woman.

 

Gullible people watch these TV shows and think these people are actually being healed - and the TV evangalist has some mystical power form God.

 

And the funny thing is its always an South Indian brahmin who is the big Christian preacher. The western missionaries like to put forward brahmins who have converted as proof of their superiority.

 

[theist]

Yeah that sounds familiar.Years back I was watching one on TV(good entertainment value) when he stopped working the audience in his auditorium and turned to the TV audience and invited them to place their heads on the TV screen as he put his hand up right in front of the camera to offer a mass healing.WOW what shakti!!!I didn't react in time but I'm pretty sure I saw some kind of celestial light coming through the screen.

 

These characters are con men, nothing more.

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by jndas:

And the funny thing is its always an South Indian brahmin who is the big Christian preacher. The western missionaries like to put forward brahmins who have converted as proof of their superiority.

That is very apt. High reservation in the south has restricted the entry of Brahmins to colleges and they find succour in Christian institutions. Also, the press is dominated by southern Brahmins. Many of these went to Oxford or Cambridge, the very bastions of Christianity and anti-Hinduism, and they are the ones who take up the cudgels in favour of Christian missionaries. These are the very spineless characters who made a saint out of a third rate criminal like Mother my left foot Teresa.

[theist]

karthik,

 

You have several times called Theresa a criminal.Why?