Conversion in Orissa

[bhaktajoy]

Theist Prabhuji,

Glad you came to Krsna.As for me I am coming from India living here in the US for past 3 yrs.I was always searching for absolute truth but indirectly.In 1994 when my Dad got his job in the US he met some devotees in ISKCON Miami,they handed him down one Bhagavad Gita as it is.It was gathering dust until I came to the US.Quite suprising,I lived in Lucknow/UP whole of my life yet never heard of Srila Prabhupada or his society.Of course I was familiar with cocepts and the language.It didn't took me long to realize how great knowledge of Krsna is.

 

I grew up watching Tv serials like Mahabharata and Ramayana.It's so unfortunate everybody knows Krsna but nobody bothers to surrender unto him.People in India say it's 21st century Mankind has went to the moon so better leave all this old stuff.Money is the only thing that is valued.Maya is very relative.

 

By Srila Prabhupada's mercy I came to know Krsna.I will continue on my journey.

 

After death the mystery of love begins...

God bless u.

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by bhaktajoy (edited 05-21-2002).]

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by theist:

karthik,

 

You have several times called Theresa a criminal.Why?

Because she was the worst criminal of this century. She amassed money in the name of the poor of Calcutta, but didn't spend anything on them. Instead that money was used by Vatican for undisclosed purposes. She helped the mafia dons launder money. The methodology was simple. Criminals like Marcos will donate a few millions to her. She will, in turn help them invest through Bank of Vatican in benami names. Over time, that transaction will get laundered. Here is a nice starter if you are interested in Mother, my left foot, Teresa:

 

http://website.lineone.net/~bajuu/index.htm

 

My friend has stunning amount of data on her and MOC. He even has copies of the tele fax her MOC sent ordering transfer of funds. I hope that one day I make a nice serial titled: Mother of crimes Teresa. But the problem is how do I get it past the media that is dominated by Brahmins, Christians and leftsists, who have a vested interest in preserving the myth of Mother, my left foot, Teresa? Any suggestions?

 

I seriously suggest that you visit Kalighat sometime and see for yourself.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

You have several times called Theresa a criminal.Why?

That thread is here:

 

http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001055.html

 

Go down a little and it begins to talk about Mother Theresa.

 

[theist]

Went to the thread.Garbage talk.Nothing more.

 

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 05-21-2002).]

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by theist:

Went to the thread.Garbage talk.Nothing more.

 

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 05-21-2002).]

Theist prabhu,

 

Did you also read through the link I gave you? Have you ever been to/in Calcutta? Have you ever had any personal interaction with MOC apart from reading about Mother, my left foot, Teresa in the media?

[bhaktajoy]

According to Vaisnava philosophy, being silent means to engage the tongue in speaking only about topics related to Lord Krsna. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura used to encourage this type of silence among his disciples, telling them, "Nonsense talk breeds nonsense thought breeds nonsense action breeds birth, death, old age and disease." Srila Prabhupada, being the foremost disciple of his spiritual master, was also the chief exponent of the above adage in the modern age, as he single-handedly spread Krsna-katha throughout the entire world with his lectures, discussions and translating work. His words were like a river of nectar flowing mercifully into the hearts of all men, and in due course of time, all forms of material sound will be washed away by this mighty river.

 

[theist]

Karthikji,

 

No I didn't read the article.I've seen several documentaries on her life and have an opinion of her as a very renounced person, who sacrificed much for others.

 

Faults can be found anywhere I suppose.But she lived a very simple life dedicated to God.

 

Not that she dressed as a renounciant and spent time and fortune in a Bangkok brothel like some I could name, but won't.

 

Criminal?No way.Way too strong.

 

I remember an interview with some temple priest in Calcutta who considered her a saint.He was the same person that literally threw stones at her when she first started her mission there.

 

Basically I will just bow out of this one.

 

theist

[leyh]

Originally posted by karthik_v:

Because she was the worst criminal of this century.

Worst criminal of this century? Is she even worse then those who have planned or are still planning to unleash global terror in the name of religion?

 

Humility is one of the fundamental pillars of Vaisnava philosophy and terms like "Criminal of the Century" should best be applied to ourselves if we aspire to be servants of the servants of the Supreme Lord.The devotee always think that he/she is the most fallen soul and the greatest criminal of the ages and that all other living entities are greater than himself or herself.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 05-21-2002).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by leyh:

Worst criminal of this century? Is she even worse then those who have planned or are still planning to unleash global terror in the name of religion?

 

Dangerous is the enemy, thee doth not know. Dangerous is the friend, that poisons thee.

Icons like Mother, my left foot, Teresa (copyright Karthik) are created by the mafia and the vatican. (It would be enough to say one or the other, eh ?). These icons are used to "ëvangelize" and demean Vedic religion. If Krishna can be called a play boy and the gopis prostitutes by the missionaries, why cant we state the truth the truth about Teresa. Not only Karthik, but (other ) great intellectual giants of the century like Domnique Lapierre have written about the crimes of Teresa in a systematic way.

 

Let us not fear truth.

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 05-22-2002).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by abhi_the_great:

 

There are few dalits(lower castes), who feel that Sri Sankara is the main person to blame for such caste based discriminations. Many are very anti-Sankara in their outlook. Anyway, he was pleased when I posted to him Sri Chaitanya's message "kiba vipra kiba nyasi sudra kene naya". But their anti-brahmin feeling was really painful.

While it is easy for people to understand Caitanya's message of equality, Sri Sankaracharya's did not give any sectarian message either. If we read Sankara Dig Vijayam, the following episode appears. Once when Sankara was on his pada yatra, there was a dog eater and four dogs that came in his way. His disciples asked the dog eater to go away from the path of the acharya. The dog eater asked,"Who should go ? His body which is maya or the atma which is one without a second." Sri Sankaracharya saw in the dog eater, the Lord Viswanatha and the four Vedas in the dogs. He fell down at their feet. pandita sama darsinah.

 

 

[gHari]

I would like to apologize to India and the world on behalf of Lord Jesus. Many claim to serve him, but they really only serve their egos. Deriding Lord Krsna and the Vedic scriptures is certainly not in harmony with the Holy Spirit.

 

I came to Vaishnavism by following the instructions of Christ: "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God." Any sincere Christian will see the Truth in the Vedas. A poseur will just satisfy their need to feel superior, and will not see the Kingdom, will not ever see beyond the words and idioms of their home team's pep talks.

 

But know for sure that Jesus does not support these barbaric activities of the so-called churches.

 

gHari

 

------------------

Gary Stevason

Seeking the Kingdom of God

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by gHari:

Deriding Lord Krsna and the Vedic scriptures is certainly not in harmony with the Holy Spirit.

 

...

 

But know for sure that Jesus does not support these barbaric activities of the so-called churches.

 

gHari

 

 

Jai. Jesus is definitely a towering spiritual personality albeit not the only way. And Bible, despite all the wrongs the church did to it, has a lot of holy teachings.

 

While we condemn the evil acts, we should not fail to recognize the great qualities of Jesus. However, we should shy away from exposing the gaps in their philospohy or practices.

[abhi_the_great]

Originally posted by ram:

While it is easy for people to understand Caitanya's message of equality, Sri Sankaracharya's did not give any sectarian message either. If we read Sankara Dig Vijayam, the following episode appears. Once when Sankara was on his pada yatra, there was a dog eater and four dogs that came in his way. His disciples asked the dog eater to go away from the path of the acharya. The dog eater asked,"Who should go ? His body which is maya or the atma which is one without a second." Sri Sankaracharya saw in the dog eater, the Lord Viswanatha and the four Vedas in the dogs. He fell down at their feet. pandita sama darsinah.

 

Thats the only instance I ever know of.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

But one instance is enough to establish Shankara's mentality. He respected atma-vidya, not caste. If other lower caste people had displayed atma-vidya, he would have equally respected their knowledge. If a higher caste person displayed his ignorance of spiritual knowledge (atma-vidya), he would be ignored (actually destroyed) by Shankara. The karma-mimamsa philosophers of his time would run and hide from him, fearing he would debate with them and defeat them.

 

[abhi_the_great]

My understanding is that, when he saw Siva in that Chandala he surrendered. Till he didn't see Shiva, he treated the person like a Candala. My humble understanding was that Lord Shiva appeared to teach Sankaracarya to rise beyond casteism.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Shankara was a liberated soul, there is no question of him being taught. Rather Shankara went through this episode to teach us. Why do we have to think the lesson was for him instead of the obvious conclusion, that it is to instruct us?

 

[karthik_v]

Excellent posts J N Das, Ram and gHari Prabhus. We should not only glorify a pure devotee like Jesus but also there are quite a few Christians who serve in India without motives and without insulting the vedic religion. Arch Bishop Arulappa is one such example. He went public with the statement: "I don't at all believe that Jesus is the only way to realization. I get the same serene feeling when I read the sublime teachings of Krishna as I do when I read the psalms." Vatican vent out its ire is another story. There are also true Christians who really serve in remote villages, though they are a minority.

 

Theist prabhuji,

 

Please read the link I provided and form your own opinions. Please don't be influenced by the documentaries of propaganda. Many American kids grew up believing that the USA nuked Japan only to avoid the death of millions. Remember the slogan? We killed thousands, but saved millions. She raised atleast US $ 190 million till 1993 for MOC Calcutta alone. Where is all that money? What use has it been put to? Please look beyond the apparent and see the truth yourself.

 

It is also a myth that she led a simple life. Despite the fact that there are many good hospitals in India, she always flew into John Hopkins for even minor check ups. That alone cost several millions. She also had a permanent suite for her in JH. She also had a recuperation villa in Zurich. All her simplicity was only for the poor who were denied even the basic medicine.

[abhi_the_great]

Appreciate this point of view. Thanks for correcting my doubting mind.

 

Originally posted by jndas:

Shankara was a liberated soul, there is no question of him being taught. Rather Shankara went through this episode to teach us. Why do we have to think the lesson was for him instead of the obvious conclusion, that it is to instruct us?

 

[abhi_the_great]

http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/vishwasvarghese/wtpsati.html

 

Since we are on this thread of Christian conversion. It wd be interesting to read this article: "why the pope shd apologise to India" .

[Guest guest]

hi Karthik,

i happened to read, urself mentioning about this sec, do u have details about them. I remember having read an article in THE HINDU during late 80's which mentioned the existence of IYENGAR CHRISTIANS which about 25 families in the beginning. They were allowed to retain their name, sacred thread etc. but have to mention christian instead of hindus in the religion. can u share any details on this, if u would have.

[ShegavichaRana]

are never allowed to forget their castes, even after conversion. The worst part of all this is, when a lower caste converted Christian dies, he/she is buried is 'separate' area meant for that particular community and away from the others. Now, this is really the limit!

[Guest guest]

 

 

Hindus are compassionate to Animals

Christians are compassionate to widows, poor, homeless children and people in general.

 

So if they work together I think there is no problem with it.

[theist]

If this is refering to a coverting of the heart from a lover of matter into a lover of God then great let's all convert.

 

Otherwise simply changing religious costumes has no value.

 

 

Vaisnavism is not another religious persuation, it is the natural function of the atma in relationship to Krsna. It lies dormant within the heart of every living being.

 

The value in any system of religion lies in the dgree to which this dormant propensity to love God is awakened.

 

The rest is just window dressing.

[Guest guest]

Conversion of Hindus to other religion by both Christians and Muslims has been going on in India for ever. Who ever converts mostly they are people who are illiterates or undereducated or who wants some benefits out of conversion during that time point of conversion. NObody leaves sanathana dharma after understanding it really, and for that matter, many people in India although born as Hindus dont even know Bagawatgita or its essence. So there is no surprise if these people convert to christianity or muslim or other religion because anyway they are already ignorant. After conversion, still they are not much interested in reading bible or qoraan and neither they are accepted by the other existing christians or muslims whose ancestors were converted earlier from hindusim in previous generations. So all these process are common in India, but yet the proportion of Hindus remain the same all the time and no religious leader from anywhere in the world could actually erase sanathana dharma eventually once for all.

thats the beauty of it.

Raghavan

(I have registration, but running for some work, so sorry for loggin on)

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

Charlie, the Anglican (Church of England) minister who lives across the street from me came by on Saturday. He asked me to help with lifting some furniture, then invited me to his church. Usual thing. He does this sort of thing about once a month. Anyway, this time I gave him a book to read, about Sri Krishna. Then five minutes later he brought me back a book - "Ceath of a Guru" about a brahmin mayavadi "guru" who became a christian. Load of nonsense, I must say. I am pretty certain my six year old son would be able to defeat all the philosophical points raised in that book.

 

Anyway, on Monday I gave Charlie back his book and I also gave him a little letter explaining why I believe in Vaishnavism and not in Christianity. Below is the text.

 

muralidhar at mandala.com.au

<hr>

Charlie,

 

I went through "Death of a Guru". To be honest, I think the author of this

book is rather stupid. No offence intended, but I found many things he

says are weird or just plain wrong. Perhaps the information from the

Encyclopaedia Brittanica I have attached will provide you with a more

realistic view of what Hinduism is really about. I also included some

information about recent archeological research in India, which testifies

to the antiquity of Indian civilization and the worship of Lord Vishnu.

The worship of Vishnu is detailed in the Rg Veda which is dated around

2000-1700 BC by most modern scholars.

 

Maybe I might take this opportunity to express the reasons why I believe

in Vaishnavism and not Christianity. One Guru in our lineage named

Bhaktivinode Thakur, who lived about 150 years ago, wrote a critique of

Christianity in his books The Bhagavat and Tattva Viveka. Listed below are

three points he presented.

 

1) According to Vaishnavism there is one Supreme Being who is known by

many names such as Vishnu or Krishna, or even Allah or Yahweh. We do not

believe in the existence of any "Satan". There is only one supernatural

and supreme power and we don't believe there is any devilish power which

is working against God to cause evil in the world. There are many "gods"

in Hinduism but these gods are people like us, and are not considered to

be the supreme being. They are like fairies or angels or spirits, somewhat

similar to the angels and jinns in the Koran. Bhaktivinode said that the

notion that there are two great supernatural powers which are constantly

struggling against each other, one Good, the other Evil, is a idea that

was first propounded by Zoaraster in Babylon. The Jewish, Christian and

Muslim religions were influenced by Zoaraster's misconception that a Good

God is battling against a Bad God in some sort of cosmic war.

 

2) We do not believe there is any everlasting "hell". Living beings create

karma and if they do bad things they will suffer for that. But even if a

person is a "demon" like Hitler he will not go to an everlasting hell.

Hell can exist, no doubt. Auschwitz was a hell on earth - but Auschwitz

is not an eternal hell. The soul reincarnates and experiences the results

of his karma and every soul will one day evolve into a pure soul who will

live in the spiritual world with God.

 

3) In the Bible there is the story about Adam and Eve who were living in a

blissful garden but they were thrown out because they did something wrong.

Because of the sin committed by those primitive ancestors all the future

generations of mankind are punished by God. But we see this God is kind to

some people and harsh to others - he is not just. Some babies are born in

wealthy homes; some are born into a life of indescribable misery. Not

because of anything they did in a previous lifetime or karma or any other

such thing, since Christians do not believe in karma, but rather because

God is not fair. He gives some people plenty of daily bread while other

starve. This type of God who causes people to suffer for no reason cannot

be said to be a loving and Good God. So we Vaishnavas reject this type of

God. We believe in Krishna, Rama, Vishnu - who is pure goodness.

 

Regards,

 

Muralidhar