The Purpose of Various Religions

[Gauracandra]

I figured perhaps I'd make an offshoot of my other thread about the purpose of Mahaprabhu's movement to perhaps look at what various other religions have to offer.

 

I'm not sure where best to start but I think we can certainly look at Christianity. Why would a person want to be a Christian? There are many historical reason's for its growth and success. I think one reason is the underlying philosophy. Christianity is a religion for the downtrodden. If you read the words of Christ they are very uplifting. For people living in the past their existence was quite brutish. They lived, suffered, and died. They could see in the story of Christ something very similar. Even if we endure so much pain, if we stay true to our principles about the dignity of man, then in the end we will come to God.

 

But what happen's when life no longer becomes so brutish? When economics allows for a lifestyle only kings could have imagined 100 years ago? Then the traditional message of Christ becomes relatively less attractive to such a modern world. This is why I believe so many Christian ministries have become really not much more than weekly self-help seminars (how to have a more successful marriage, how to have a Christ-like budget etc...). We don't live a brutish existence. We live in a time of prosperity.

 

In another thread it was mentioned that Christians are evangelizing in India. I must say I think they will be very successful with this traditional message. For those who are suffering, who have nothing, the message of Christ will be very appealing.

[Guest guest]

The reason why Christianity succeeded :

 

1. many want to follow Jesus and

2. one does not have to, in order to be a Christian -

 

Christianity at best is a very very diluted form of monotheism. I would not even say it is Vaishnavism. Despite the simplicity of the message, his early followers did not have much clarity on what he had to say nor firm faith. This includes even St. Peter. As a result in the initial days, Christianity did not spread much. But when it served the political purposes, it grew very fast. I am yet to see a religion which grows independant of the state.

 

One may ask what about the genuine Christians who are apolitical ?

 

The good image and happiness that comes out of "social service" definitely attracts good people. Especially when you dont have to follow any rule seriously including basic precepts like Thou Shall Not Kill. If the church were to take the commandments seriously, then it will be without followers.

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 05-21-2002).]

[Avinash]

In another thread it was mentioned that Christians are evangelizing in India. I must say I think they will be very successful with this traditional message. For those who are suffering, who have nothing, the message of Christ will be very appealing.

 

The way evangelization is being done is very bad. There are many examples I have read or heard about. But, let me give two examples; one happened with somebody I know closely and another happened with myself.

 

About three years back, some christians missionaries came to one of my aunt's reidence. They suggested her to convert to Christianity. They even said that they would bear all the expenses for her daughter's marriage. I am happy that they were unsuccesful.

 

About one year back, I was travelling on train. My cousin was with me. One christian came there and started talking to us. He gave us some books (just a few pages thick) that contained teachings of Christ. I took those with thanks. He asked us why we don't convert to christianity. I asked back why we should. Do you know what was his reply?

He replied, "Christianity is a very modern religion. By accepting this religion, you can enjoy life to its fullest extent. In this religion, wine, sex and food are freely allowed."

I was speechless to hear this. My cousin burst out laughing. Then that person left.

 

[theist]

Originally posted by ram:

Despite the simplicity of the message, his early followers did not have much clarity on what he had to say nor firm faith. This includes even St. Peter.

 

 

ram,

 

When they came to take St.Peter to his own crucifixation for spreading the message of Christ he did not protest.But he did have one request.That he be crucified upside down so that he would not be in imitation of his Lord Christ.

 

theist

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by theist:

ram,

 

When they came to take St.Peter to his own crucifixation for spreading the message of Christ he did not protest.But he did have one request.That he be crucified upside down so that he would not be in imitation of his Lord Christ.

 

theist

If I remember right, he denied thrice that he knew Christ.

 

[theist]

Then he grew.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Avinash:

The way evangelization is being done is very bad.

I agree. This is not only in India. But every where. Once when I was in the temple in the USA, a very beautiful young lady walked in with her cute little daughter. As a matter of routine, I recevied her, gave her the beads to chant and then walked away. She chanted three times, called me and said,"Do you know I used to live in the temple when I was a child ?" I said,"Oh! That is nice. So you must be aware of chanting. I apologize I treated you like a novice." She said, "No it is not a problem because I forgot all about it. When I was small I used to help my mother do service in the kitchen and wash clothes." Sensing the melancholy I asked, "So what happened ?" She said, "My uncle took my mother away and me. The first thing he asked me to do was eat meat so that I can be a Christian." She started sobbing and said,"When I had my daughter I decided to give the best thing I had in my life. That is why I brought her here."

 

In another incident, a devotee friend of mine in India married to a Christian lady was visited by the lady's brothers. They started saying Krishna is a play boy and gopis are prostitutes, asked her to remove the kum kum, how would you like to run away with your milk man who claims to be God etc. For a tamil, these are pretty harsh words and the lady obviously started crying. Then they said, "Look! How happy we are and how sad you are because of following these demons." Thanks to indoctrination by ISKCON, she survived that but believe me it is not so easy. Most Hindus are not well versed in sastras and the religion is surviving despite governmental oppression. I am not partiularly against the Christians or some thing. In fact, the Buddhists do similar thing. They play caste politics to convert people. And muslims, it is needless to say any thing. They give the bait of four wives and gulf job.

 

When religions focus on the number of followers, as all evengelist religions do , there are problems eventually. Then the purity is lost and with that the truth. This is some thing hare krishnas should guard againt too. Power and money become more important than the purpose of the organization. When religious leaders fight for following, they become slaves to their followers and start bending the rules.

 

Karl Marx said, "Religion is the opium of mankind". "Without truth and purity," I would say,"It is the cyanide".

[Rati]

You can do all the comparative studies you want, but ultimately people generally to whatever faith they were born into and raised in. Those that venture far afield are a very small percentage. Many Americans take classes in haTha yoga (currently a very hot trend), but remain Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, etc.

 

 

I do not see that it is a question of multiple purposes, but certainly there is a variegated array of faiths, and studying the common patterns as well as the unique features of them is a fascinating endeavor.

 

Hopefully those who have the time and inclination (I would like to get more involved, but my schedule does not allow) will provide some interesting material along these lines (there are sources aplenty in the existing body of literature and new insights built on those should be even more interesting).

[gHari]

The basic reasons for having a variety of religious schools are defined in this excerpt from Srila Bhaktivinoda's Introduction to Sri Krsna Samhita:

The different forms of these spiritual activities create divisions of

sectarianism. Differences that arise from places, times, languages,

behaviors, foods, dresses, and natures of various communities are

incorporated within people's spiritual practices and gradually make one

community so completely different from another community that even the

consideration that everyone is a human being may cease to exist.

 

Due to these differences there is disagreement, cessation of social

intercourse, and fighting, even up to the point of killing one another.

When an asslike mentality becomes prominent within the neophyte

kanistha-adhikaris, they certainly indulge in these things. But if they

develop a swanlike mentality, then they do not take part in quarrels;

rather, they endeavor to attain a higher level.

 

Madhyama-adhikaris do not quarrel so much about external standards, but

they are always attacked by philosophical disagreements. Sometimes they

condemn the standards of neophytes and establish their own standards as

superior. They condemn the neophyte's deity worship in order to

establish the worshipable Lord as formless. In such cases, they are also

considered asslike people. Otherwise, if they had a swanlike mentality

and a desire to attain a higher level, they would respect others'

practices and inquire about higher topics.

 

Contradictions actually arise only due to asslike mentality. Swanlike

persons consider the necessity for different practices according to

one's qualification, so they are naturally detached from sectarian

quarrels. In this regard, it should be understood that both asslike and

swanlike people are found amongst the kanistha-adhikaris and madhyama-adhikaris.

I do not expect that asslike people will accept this book

with respect.

 

If neophytes and madhyama-adhikaris become completely indifferent in

regard to the contradictions found in various practices and try to

advance further, then they become swanlike persons. Then they are our

respectable and dear friends. Although swanlike personalities may accept

a particular practice from birth or childhood according to instructions

they have received, they nevertheless remain indifferent and

nonsectarian.

 

The religious principles that will be explained and established in this

book are very difficult to name. If these principles are given a

particular sectarian name, then other sects will oppose them. The Srimad

Bhagavatam has therefore established sanatana-dharma as satvata-dharma,

or religious principles related with the Absolute Truth. Another name

for these religious principles is Vaisnava-dharma. Asslike Vaisnavas

fall into the categories of:

<BLOCKQUOTE>Saktas (followers of Durga),

Sauras (followers of the sun-god),

Ganapatyas (followers of Ganesa),

Saivites (followers of Siva),

and Vaisnavas (followers of Visnu).

</BLOCKQUOTE>But swanlike Vaisnavas are nonsectarian and, therefore, rare.

 

These five types of spiritualists, as found in India, are named

according to their respective qualifications. Human beings have two

types of tendencies: arthic or material, and paramarthic or spiritual.

 

Material tendencies include maintaining the body, constructing a house,

marrying, begetting children, studying, earning wealth, material

science, factory work, acquiring and maintaining assets, and

accumulating piety.

 

Although there are some similarities between the activities of humans

and animals, the material endeavors of humans are nevertheless superior

to the natural tendencies of animals. If after executing their material

activities, human beings do not take shelter of their constitutional

activities, then they are called two-legged animals.

 

The constitutional activities of a pure soul are called sva-dharma, or

one's prescribed activities. The sva-dharma of a living entity is

prominently manifested in his pure state of existence. In one's pure

state of existence this sva-dharma is present in the form of spiritual

activities.

 

All the above-mentioned material tendencies become successful when

dovetailed with spiritulal activities. Otherwise they cannot

independently help one attain the highest goal.

 

From engagement in material activities up to the awakening of spiritual

activities is called the preliminary stage of God consciousness. From

this preliminary stage up to the uttama-adhikari stage there are

innumerable levels:

<BLOCKQUOTE>ONE - Inquiring about the truth of the material world is called

Sakta-dharma, because the predominating deity of the material world is

goddess Durga. All behavior and practice instructed in Sakta-dharma is

helpful only in the preliminary stage. Such behavior and practice is

meant to bring one closer to spiritual life, and materialistic people

may be attracted by this only until they begin to inquire about the

Supreme Absolute Truth. Sakta-dharma is the living entity's initial

spiritual endeavor, and it is extremely essential for people of that

level.

 

TWO - When the preliminary stage is further strengthened, one

attains the next level. One then considers the energy of work and the

superiority of heat over dull matter, and one therefore accepts the sun-god,

who is the source of heat, as one's worshipable deity. At that

time, Saura-dharma is awakened.

 

THREE - Later, when one considers even heat as dull matter and

animal consciousness as superior, one attains the third stage,

Ganapatya-dharma.

 

FOUR - In the fourth gross stage, Lord Siva is worshiped as the

pure consciousness of the living entities, and Saiva-dharma manifests.

 

FIVE - In the fifth stage, the consciousness of the living

entity worships the supreme consciousness, and thus Vaisnava-dharma is

manifest.

</BLOCKQUOTE>By nature, there are five types of paramarthic dharmas, or spiritual

duties, which have been known throughout the world by different names at

different times. If one considers all the different dharmas that are

current in India and abroad, one can see that they certainly fall within

these five categories.

 

The religious principles taught by Mohammed and Jesus Christ are similar

to the religious principles taught by Vaisnava sects. Buddhism and

Jainism are similar to Saiva-dharma.

 

This is a scientific consideration of truths regarding religious

principles. Those who consider their own religious principles as real

dharma and others' religious principles as irreligion or subreligion are

unable to ascertain the truth due to being influenced by prejudice.

 

Actually religious principles followed by people in general are

different only due to the different qualifications of the practitioners,

but the constitutional religious principles of all living entities are

one.

 

It is not proper for swanlike persons to reject the religious principles

that people in general follow according to their situation. Therefore,

with due respect to the religious principles followed by people in

general, we will now discuss the living entity's constitutional

religious principles.

 

------------------

Gary Stevason

Seeking the Kingdom of God

[abhi_the_great]

dharma projita kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsaranam satam

[xxvvii]

The following is an excerpt from an NDE article in NDE site.

 

Explain The Trinity

 

The Father, of course, is God, or Infinity, who created and controls the universe.

The Son is an individualized portion of God who has attained a perfect oneness with God - which is also our goal.

The Holy Ghost, or Holy Spirit, would be the Master-Vibration which flows into us as freely as the barriers we have built up against it will allow.

 

Do You Believe In A Devil?

 

No, but if there is one, he would have to be an insane angel who was crazy enough to fight with God, which would be as futile as for us to try to stop the sunrise. I believe the devil is a mythological character, invented by man and used for a scapegoat. Grown people with immature minds like to blame the devil for their misdeeds instead of acting like men and taking the blame themselves.

However, there may be earth-bound spirits of low vibrations, whom we may regard as devils because they annoy us through mental telepathy. These demons tune in on us through our low vibrations of hate, fear and greed. They can be tuned out with unselfish love, or if necessary be chased away by the stronger spirit of Jesus Christ.

There's an old saying, "Birds of a feather, flock together." The way to be rid of the "devil" is not to be like him.

 

Do You Believe In Predestination Or Free Will?

 

Both. Since they told me I had a destiny, why wouldn't everyone else have one? Obviously, our brains can only know what we've recorded in them, but our oversouls know all about us. That's why they try to guide us, and keep us in our bodies until our life's work is finished - just like we try to stay in our cars until we reach our destinations.

Yet, we all have free will. Any of us can get drunk and drive into a telephone pole.

 

What Is Karma?

 

Karma is the totality of all our actions - good and bad - which determine our fate, or destiny.

If we do only good things we will eventually run out of bad karma and only good things will happen to us, and vice versa. The purpose of karma is to force us to learn life's lessons whether we want to or not.

Between lives, with the great knowledge of our oversouls, we choose the next life we are going to live and how much karma we are going to meet and settle. For example, if you abused animals, or people, in one life your oversoul would probably cause you to reincarnate into a situation where you'd get abused to make you realize the misery you've caused others.

The only way to bypass karma is to develop so much unselfish love that paying bad karma will serve no purpose - much like a college student challenging a course he already knows.

 

 

What's Wrong With Fixed Beliefs About The Hereafter?

 

Things change little in the hereafter. Suppose we have the fixed idea that we'll sleep till the resurrection of the body. Then suppose there isn't a resurrection of the body. We might sleep a very long time.

On the other hand, if we have no fixed beliefs about anything, we'd be free to adapt to the new surroundings and fit in where we belong with no unusual difficulty.

Everything has its place. Fixed beliefs are useful in prayer where doubt is fatal. Yet doubt is always useful in sizing up religious dogma, reading junk mail, listening to commercials, and the promises of politicians.

 

Why Are People Turned Off By Religion?

 

Any complete body of knowledge is like a spoke in a wheel - pointing to the center of ultimate truth. Science, art, music, philosophy and religion run into trouble because they are not yet complete bodies of knowledge even though religion is advertised and sold as such.

Many religionists think they have the whole truth and the only short-cut to heaven. And in their well-meaning zeal to rescue wayward humanity, they argue, persuade and even go to war to force non-believers to accept their formula for getting into heaven.

Outsiders are turned off mostly because the churches can't agree among themselves. Some churches have even resorted to torture to force their particular brand of God's love on people who were perfectly satisfied and thought they were on good terms with God already.

But even though the churches have abused religion, and the beliefs of some churches are ridiculous to other churches, I believe everyone should have some kind of a religion, or philosophy, to encourage them to think and grow spiritually.

 

 

What Is God Like?

 

I don't know. I didn't see Him. But I did feel a Master Vibration which must be a part of God because it kept everything in good order and controlled the universe. Maybe it was the Holy Spirit.

People differ a great deal in their ideas of what God is like. Little children imagine Him to be a gray-haired old man with a long white beard.

One religious denomination believes there is a Mr. and Mrs. God. Other churches consider God to be a universal spirit that created and rules the universe, while the atheists say there is no God at all - until they get in a jam. Then they pray like there really is one!

Under self-hypnosis, I once asked what God was like. I saw a huge mountain almost covered with clouds. Here and there were small peekholes through which I could see lightning and great activity. Then a voice from somewhere said, "To fully understand God, you'll have to be almost as great as He is!¡±

This put me in my place. But for reasoning purposes I had to have some kind of a mental image of what God is like. To me now, after many years of thought, He's a combination of many things such as: the known and

unknown laws of nature, light, electricity, gravity, time, space, infinity, love and life itself - totally incomprehensible! But since we have life, we must all be a small part of Him.

That's probably why we call Him Father and consider ourselves his onery kids - who always need forgiveness.

[Dharma]

posted by ram Most Hindus are not well versed in sastras and the religion is surviving despite governmental oppression. I am not particularly against the Christians or some thing. In fact, the Buddhists do similar thing. They play caste politics to convert people. And muslims, it is needless to say any thing. They give the bait of four wives and gulf job.

 

I think the Christian conversion attempts of India is of deep concern, even to anthropologists. Hinduism is the last great enlightenment culture on the planet and if it were to be annihilated it would be a dark day in human consciousness. It is like ignorance is battling to perpetuate itself.

[Tarun]

What to speak of India! Even China!

That's why when Bushing went to China a few months ago & requested:

"Y don't u embrace Amerikan values?", a roar of laughter rose nationwide.

Not China-wide, Amerika-wide.

He should have asked:

"Y don't I/we embrace Christian values?"

When Brits came to Punjab to try to convert them to Christianity..

I'll tell ya, anyone of them instantaneously became a bigger source of "heehee haha hoho" than Leno & Letterman combined.

And Punjabis r quite serious, not at all frivolous.

Turns out they knew 10 times more about Christ than any so-called Christian in Europe.

And they were practicing it.

 

[Dharma]

That is a very good point. I read once that China had the second largest Islamic population in the world. That could make for a large army.

 

Do you think the increased conversion attempts of Asia has anything to do with growing Islamic population? I think Islam is the fastest growing religion in the USA.

[Gauracandra]

Why is Islam growing in the U.S.? Alot of it has to do with immigration. But there is also the social dimension.

 

Perhaps my use of the word 'purpose' has been incorrect. But I believe most successful religions ride a social wave to some extent. There is something in the society that "needs" this religion or that religion.

 

With Islam for instance we see a lot of growth in the inner city especially from a group like The Nation of Islam. What is their appeal? The appeal is a militant religious system. They are living in poverty, with gangs and drugs and prostitutes in their neighborhood. The traditional Christian ministers have been passive and have obviously not solved these problems.

 

Along comes The Nation of Islam with a militant religious view. They wear army like uniforms, and patrol the neighborhoods. Actually if you read what they say alot of it is good. The are against teenage pregnancy, against drug use, tell people to pool their money to start businesses.

 

So they have something to offer to the innercity black minority in the U.S. Couple that with their positioning Christianity as the "white" religion while Islam is for non-white people and they tap into a powerful social need.

 

Now suppose the Nation of Islam were to seek to present this message to white America, or to Korean Americans etc... They would fall flat on their face. The message would have no meaning to these groups and their religion would fail. It works because it is a focused message to a specific segment of society that "needs" that message.

[Rati]

There are really three different objectives in inter-faith dialogue. Whether or not they are mutually exclusive is a matter of opinion.

 

1) To gain respect for one's own faith and erdicate persecution by those of other faiths.

 

2) To win converts.

 

3) To broaden one's own and others' horizons.

 

Someone may have one, two or all of these goals in mind. Also, there may be others I have not listed above, but I think these are the main ones. We can either take a lot of baggage (in the form of prejudices and pre-programmed attitudes) to such discussions, or we can leave it behind.

 

Do different religions actually have different purposes? Don't they all pretty much deal with the same material: Rites of passage, the afterlife, a Supreme Being, the nature of the soul, codes of ethics, etc.? Don't they all have practitioners at various levels of piety and realization? Perhaps we need to re-title this thread. How about "The Variety of Religious Expression" or "World Religions 101"?

[Gauracandra]

It might be interesting to consider Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs in relation to various religions. I think to an extent that is what Bhaktivinode's "Stages and Varieties of Faith" does. It shows how religion, around the world, varies depending on what state of civilization a people are in. Something to think about.

[Gauracandra]

I mentioned in another post how self-help is the new religion. In this regard we can look at how Scientology has managed to be so successful. Let me be frank - Scientology is not a religion. It is one of the most gaudy, hilariously evil scams ever perpetuated on this planet. Legend has it that L. Ron Hubbard started it on a bet to see if he could found his own religion (in order to make money).

 

First, just to have some fun, I will just point out their view of the world. Essentially L. Ron decided that the purpose of his religion was to make money. Thats it. To make spiritual advancement you purchase courses and move up the ladder.

 

What do you learn at the top? You learn that trillions of years ago the intergalactic warlord Xenu captured various renegade aliens. He placed them inside a volcano (on earth I think) and dropped an H-Bomb and killed them all. Now all of their alien ghosts are infecting the bodies of man, who need to become 'cleared'. They believe L. Ron is the reincarnation of the Buddha. And that Jesus was a pedophile, who wasn't cruxified. The whole cruxifiction was an implant by the intergalactic overlord Xenu.

 

Ok, nutso. Whatever. But what did he realize? He realized two things. First, people were moving away from religion and wanted 'science'. It was a brilliant stroke of evil genius to name his religion Scientology in this regard. Second, he realized that people are materialistic. So he designed his religion around self-help. There are no limits to your potential. Just take these courses and we'll teach you how to do it. And they even have celebrity spokespeople. It was brilliant because it answered the need for those who want science and are materialistically motivated.

 

Again, I don't think it is a religion, but it was a brilliant masterstroke to combine these characteristics. It was like seeing where the crowd was going and just stepping in front of it.