Caste

[Guest guest]

The biggest socio-political problem with Vedic religion is the caste system. It is real and we cannot wish it away. Revolutionary spiritual leaders like our own Srila Prabhupada have done away with caste system. Outside hare krishna movement, there are a number of spiritual leaders like Dayanand Saraswati, Aurobindo and social reformers like Rajaram Mohan Roy who have fought against caste system. It is very evident that a mature practitioner of vedic religion irrespective of his school is above mundane differences. But in practical administration of mundane affairs does Vedas prescribe jati or birth based varnashrama ? To me even if it does, it has to be accepted as meant for ultimate good of the people. But I would definitely find that aspect of Vedas not so relishable in my current state of evolution. Like I find it difficult to accept having a labrador as a pet is bad because food seen by a dog cannot be offered or taken.

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 05-22-2002).]

[Sarasvati]

Vedas don't prescripe birth based Varnashrama. In Bhagavad Gita, Krishna says, "qualities born of their own natures" (18.41)

 

I couldn't understand the point about the labradors, though.

[xxvvii]

Caste system is of no problem, & the real problem, existed in people's hearts, has to do with dharma, kali yuga, & me.

 

[This message has been edited by xxvvii (edited 05-22-2002).]

[bhaktajoy]

5000 yrs ago caste system was in perfect order.Society was peaceful and there were no problems.

 

Lord Chaitanya fed Maha Prasadam to a street dog.The dog went to the spiritual world.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Sarasvati:

I couldn't understand the point about the labradors, though.

Let us I like to have a labrador as a pet. I cannot do it because there is a vedic injunction - i suppose. We may not like it but we follow.

 

Similarly, even if Vedas had jati, we have to accept it but obviously I would not like it.

[Sarasvati]

I know many devotees who have dogs as pets. Prabhupada mentions in one book (can't remember which; it was in a purpot)something about people and their household animals, such as cows, horses, goats, DOGS, etc. So, apparently, dogs have been used for guarding, etc. in earlier times, too.

[bhaktajoy]

In one lecture I remember Srila Prabhupada saying dogs which associate with devotees are fortunate having performed good deeds in previous births.

 

Ram Prabhuji I know it dosent seems right to follow one vedic injunction and ignore another but I think no creature should be left out of God's mercy.Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was distributing Krsna's mercy for free.

 

I would say go ahead!

 

[This message has been edited by bhaktajoy (edited 05-23-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by bhaktajoy (edited 05-23-2002).]

[Bhaktavasya]

 

A devotee in Gaura lila, Sivananda Sena, had so much affection for a dog that he refused to go back to Godhead unless the dog went with him. According to the story, (and my memory) Sri Chaitanya granted the benediction/assurance that the dog could go back to the spiritual world with Sivananda.

[Sarasvati]

Some years back in Mayapur (this is a story I heard from HH Jayapataka Swami), a dog used to come into the main temple room after the evening arati was over and the temple empty (but obviously before the doors were locked). Every evening he (or she) used to cautiously walk right to Srila Prabhupada's vyasasana (Deities' curtains had been already closed), prostrate himself, get up and go. Once, JPS hid himself behind a pillar to check if it was true or just a story, but the dog actually came and offered obeisances to Prabhupada.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

A devotee in Gaura lila, Sivananda Sena, had so much affection for a dog that he refused to go back to Godhead unless the dog went with him.

Showing compassion to all forms of living entities is certainly the practice of Vaishnavas. This doesn't justify having a dog live in one's house, especially for those trying to raise themselves to the platform of cleanliness (from where knowledge may begin to be cultivated). And it certainly isn't beneficial to one's personal worship of the deity form of the Lord within one's house. Of course some may prefer to make to Lord adjust to their mundane attachements, rather than choose to live a clean lifestyle.

 

There are circumstances in Vedic societies where one may keep pets, such as a dog; for example for protecting a farm. But again, the dog does not live in the house of the person.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Ram Prabhuji I know it dosent seems right to follow one vedic injunction and ignore another but I think no creature should be left out of God's mercy.

Give them prasadam and let them live their life. There is no necessity to associate intimately with them. We should direct such affection to the lotus feet of the pure devotees, not to the dogs. That will truly help us advance in Krishna consciosness.

 

Of course for those who already have dogs, its your duty to take care of them till they die. But for those who do not have dogs, I would not suggest going out and getting one, for it will certainly have an influencing affect on one's consciousness (and aggregate attachments) - especially if you must live in close proximity (i.e. in the same house or appartment). We should be trying to raise our standard of cleanliness and fix ourselves in sattva, so that we can develop knowledge and devotion. Circumstances that will bring us more in contact with the lower modes should be avoided for those practicing devotion.

 

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by ram:

I am not too keen about a dog. Currently, I live in the US and I am not too keen on spending the precious dollars on dogs. My attachment to $$$ is more than that to the dogs -

 

Okay, why dont we return to the topic "Caste" ?

Before you return to the topic, I would like to make my profound observation here:

 

Those who have dogs as pets have a tendency to either commit suicide or end up having diabetes. Those who have fish, in tanks at home, have almost certainly had a love failure.

 

 

[bhaktajoy]

Also living inside creates artificial conditions for cats and dogs.They are outdoor creatures.

 

That's why in the US pets are having so many diseases like cancer and diabetes.

 

Thank you Jndas Prabhuji for clearing this up.Dogs and cats should be shown mercy and fed prasadam.Ever since real knowledge in India degraded people say why feed prasadam to dogs?Usually in Lucknow Dogs sit and wait for prasadam outside temples.Some give,others kick them away.It has become day to day occurance...cows and dogs are often thrown stone upon.People break their legs.

[Guest guest]

Please Please Please return to the discussion on caste and leave the dogs alone.

[Guest guest]

I am not too keen about a dog. Currently, I live in the US and I am not too keen on spending the precious dollars on dogs. My attachment to $$$ is more than that to the dogs -

 

Okay, why dont we return to the topic "Caste" ?

[Dharma]

I remember hearing a story of an American who went to India to spend some time with a very famous guru. The guru asked him why he was there and the young man replied that he wanted to become the person that his dog sees when he looks at him.

 

Sorry, Ramji...

 

I will try to take it back to caste:

 

"Everyone is born a Shudra and remains such until he receives a sacrament of the Veda and is therefore born a second time."

 

"Nor birth nor sacraments nor study nor ancestry can decide if a person is twice born. Character & conduct can only decide."

 

"By the power of self denial, acting slectively on the potencies of the primal seed in all, persons born in one caste may change to higher or by the contradiction of self denial, by self indulgence, and selfishness may descend into a lower. The pure upward-aspiring, the gentle speaking,the free from pride, who live with and like the Brahmins and the twice born castes continually-even such Shudras shall attain higher castes."

 

The Aum of the Dogs:

 

"Vaka went out to study the Vedas and a little white dog appeared to him. Many other dogs approached the white dog and said. "Oh Lord, pray for abundance for us. We desire to eat!"

 

The white dog answered, "Come to me here tomorrow morning."

 

"As those who pray through hymns tend to assemble, the little dogs came together and marched like a procession of priests. Each one held the tail of the one in front of it and barked out: "Aum let us eat! Aum let us drink. Aum! Aum! Aum! Aum- may the resplendent Sun who showers rain and grants food to all mortals grant us food. Oh Lord of food, bestow food upon us. Deign to grant it!"