Is Jesus coming back ? Save yourself.

[Guest guest]

All over the world, there is a campaign by different denominations of Christianity that the son of God is coming back. Jesus will be with us shortly. And those who place their faith in him shall be redeemed. Others shall be doomed in hell forever. Millions of dollars are spent in this campaign. Is there any spiritual truth behind this ? Or is this an attempt by the Church to do a "harvest of faith" ? Is this a secret operation by the US governement to increase its dominanance over the middle east and the rest of the world ? We will debate.

 

Let me present 8 compelling reasons from the church and share your thoughts.

[Guest guest]

Reason #1 Israel's rebirth.

 

Out of the 167 compelling reasons one scholar presents, Church has chosen 8. This is the first 2 of them.

 

As Jesus prophesised, the Jews were scattered during the Jewish-Roman war of A.D 70. (Luke 21:24). Also prophesised to occur before Christ's return, the nation of Israel was reborn on May 14, 1948. Israel is called "God's time clock".

 

[bhaktashab]

Maybe Jesus will be our next Vaisnava Acarya.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by bhaktashab:

Maybe Jesus will be our next Vaisnava Acarya.

May be. Is it predicted in the sastras or pUrvacharyas ?

 

Anyway, the objective of this discussion is to analyse the veracity of the claims by the Church logically. Is there a prediction about scattering of Jews and formation of the state of Israel in the Bible ?

 

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 05-24-2002).]

[Tarun]

Jesus is due to arrive midnight Christmas Eve at Penn Station.

B there 2 help with His Divine Luggage. Bring dolly or hand truck.

Save yourself.

Save yourself from waiting by phoning 1st 2 c if trains r on time.

[gHari]

They've been saying the second coming is coming soon for the last two thousand years. They pick up on a word or two here and there, and claim that it is imminent.

 

Fear has always been a major selling point for Christian preachers. And of course that relates to one of the four reasons people turn to Krsna. Sometimes I think that their hell is the clambering up through 8,400,000 species of life without Krsna, whilst everlasting life is sac-cid-ananda.

 

The best way to handle 'Christians' is to preach Bhagavad-gita to them using the words of Jesus. That's what he did. For the most part, they do not understand what Jesus was saying.<font color="#f7f7f7">

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 05-24-2002).]

[Guest guest]

But the claims are supposedly based on facts. So it has to be refuted through logic.

[theist]

ramji,

 

It is an interesting question for sure.But I wouldn't get into with any Christians.

 

For one thing if he is returning to this globe anytime soon why try to refute it.Let's just be chanting when he arrives.He will be very pleased.

 

If it is refutable it won't matter to them as they won't accept your views anyway.It is not a question of logic with some of these good folks, believe me.

 

Here's one;I'm 70% convinced He came already as Haridas Thakur.Some are 100% convinced.But who knows.

 

theist

[bhaktashab]

Isn't Haridas Thakura an incarnation of Prahlada Maharaja? If so that means you are saying Prahlada Maharaja is Jesus.

[abhi_the_great]

I thought Haridas thakur was Lord Brahma.

[Avinash]

On what basis do you decide if somebody was Brahma or Prahlad or somebody else?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Prahlada's incarnation was as Raghavendra Swami. Haridas Thakur was said to be an incarnation of Lord Brahma.

 

As far as how is it known, it is different for each individual. Usually it is in reference to a prediction of the Vedas, which is being fulfilled. Other times it is realized souls who have identified them by their divya-drishti.

 

It depends on whether one puts faith in those Vedic predictions, or in the saints who make such statements.

 

 

 

[Avinash]

It depends on whether one puts faith in those Vedic predictions, or in the saints who make such statements.

 

Please correct me if I have understood you wrongly. But it seems you are saying that if one puts faith in Vedic predictions then he can not put faith in the saints and vice versa. But, is it really the case? If we consider vedas as infallible and these saints also as infallible, then can't we say that the statements made by the saints will never contradict the Vedic predictions?

 

[raga]

The following statements are found in the Gaura Ganoddesa Dipika in regards to Prahlad Maharaja in Gaura Lila:

 

93. Rcika Muni's son Brahma Mahatapah, and Prahlada Maharaja combined to appear as Haridasa Thakur in Lord Caitanya's pastimes.

 

172. The vraja-brahmani Nandimukhi-devi appeared as Saranga Thakura. Some people think that Saranga Thakura was the incarnation of Prahlada Maharaja. My father (Sivananda Sena) did not agree with them.

 

 

I was actually surprised to find the words "Rcika Muni's son Brahma Mahatapah" there. Is this the same as Brahmaji the creator?

 

Does anyone have the original text at hand?

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Please correct me if I have understood you wrongly. But it seems you are saying that if one puts faith in Vedic predictions then he can not put faith in the saints and vice versa. But, is it really the case? If we consider vedas as infallible and these saints also as infallible, then can't we say that the statements made by the saints will never contradict the Vedic predictions?

Actually my wording wasn't very clear. I meant in the case of predictions made by saints, it depends on whether one puts his faith in their words; and in the case of the predictions made by the Vedas, it depends whether one accepts them as authority. Generally the saints words never differ from the Vedas, but sometimes the saint may reveal something that is not found in the Vedas. In such cases it depends on whether you have faith in the saint.

 

 

 

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by shvu:

Correct. In fact, this should be extended to all religions where the followers are usually conned with a lot of stories that do not stand up to verification. Surprisingly there exist a lot of people who are willing to accept statements given out by their religion prima facie, never for a moment doubting their authenticity.

 

Cheers

I agree with this observation. One should validate the claims, no matter which religion they belong to. Of course, I would be more concerned with Christianity because of its monetary clout and propaganda machinery. One shouldn't forget that it is the church that, by sheer propaganda, made a "saint" out of a cheap criminal like Mother, my left foot, Teresa.

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by ram:

Karthik, if only 2 generals and 40 soldiers were taken as prisoners, where does "few hundreds" that you talk about come from ? Is it the Roman version of the war results ? Does the term gentiles refer to jews?

The only version of the war results that is extant is that of Josephus, who wrote it for the Romans. So, even by his not so partial and obviously exaggerated account, only 40 odd prisoners were taken. I mentioned a "few hundreds", taking into account the possibility that their families were also imprisoned. Gentiles are non-Jewish folks.

[Guest guest]

When the european jews first started to move to palestine ,years ago before it was out of british control, the religious leaders opposed them vehemently.

They believed that they were meant to return to the promised land AFTER the arrival of the messiah.

they believed that jews returning to palestine before then was a great abomination,and would cause great calamity..

this preaching was very popular among the european jewry..the zionists however were for the most part agnostic,or atheistic jews.and ignored the warnings...

 

This is all based on old testament prophecy.

 

The christains of course believe that jesus was the messiah,..his second coming is debated in the christain world..the catholic position is that jesus is not coming back..others believe he is here now..others believe the concept of jesus will appear..

 

This is coming from interpretations in the new testament,there is plenty of literature on this subject..

 

Other religions also expect an immanent arrival of a savoir..

The muslim shiite's expect the messiah or Madhi, to reeappear ,having been hidden for a while.

The buddhists expect the next boddhisatva for this age , maitreya, to appear,the last one was siddharta ,(side note,scientologists may believe that L.Ron Hubbard,who actually claimed to be maitreya,was the savoir for this age.)

The mayans and incans have predicted the return of kulkilcan,the white skinned savoir, at this present time.

 

As far as a government conspiracy, there are elements in the government who are strongly affiliated with various sects.

The foremost is the mormon domination of the intelligence services,they are sought out because of their experience on foriegn missions, requiring them to learn the language of their host country, they are also indoctrinated by the boy scouts,who are owned by the mormon church.

They are entrenched in the F.B.I,where they are refered to as the mormon mafia,..also the C.I.A, N.S.A.,etc.

Also N.A.S.A.

 

The bible thumping evangelicals are the loudest and most heard about, for claiming jesus's immanent appearence.

Mostly it is not influencial in high government circles,and does not influence policy towards Israel.

 

 

[This message has been edited by shiva (edited 05-24-2002).]

[gHari]

In different places in the Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Haridasa Thakura is described as both Lord Brahma and as Prahlad. If I remember corretly the Prahlad comment was present only in a Purport as Lord Caitanya embraced Haridasa and reminded him that he was actually Prahlad. Later I will dig up the references, but my memory is very clear on this, since I had raised an unanswered question about whether that indicated that Prahlad is our Lord Brahma.

 

I have even speculated that Jesus was Sri Caitanya since the combination of Mr. God and Mrs. God produces Gaurahari. But that was then. I really don't know. Mahaksa das prefers Lord Brahma as I recall. Whoever he is, he sure is cool. Just a few key phrases caught this little boy's heart for many years, despite the bullies and bombs of this world.

 

gHari

(Not Jesus)

[leyh]

Originally posted by karthik_v:

I agree with this observation. One should validate the claims, no matter which religion they belong to. Of course, I would be more concerned with Christianity because of its monetary clout and propaganda machinery. One shouldn't forget that it is the church that, by sheer propaganda, made a "saint" out of a cheap criminal like Mother, my left foot, Teresa.

Instead of pointing the finger at alleged criminals,maybe we should pay more attention to our own criminality.All of us,whether knowingly or unknowingly commit offences every day and if the material world is a prison for living entities who misuse their independence(as Srila Prabhupada teaches)then are we not all criminals too?

 

In the Bible, the following words of transcendental advice from Jesus are recorded:"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." (Matthew 7:3-5)

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 05-24-2002).]

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by ram:

Reason #1 Israel's rebirth.

 

Out of the 167 compelling reasons one scholar presents, Church has chosen 8. This is the first 2 of them.

 

As Jesus prophesised, the Jews were scattered during the Jewish-Roman war of A.D 70. (Luke 21:24). Also prophesised to occur before Christ's return, the nation of Israel was reborn on May 14, 1948. Israel is called "God's time clock".

Long before Jesus was born, assuming that he was born, Jews were scattered all around. They had been driven out of their homeland called Israel many a time before that. Don't you recall as to how Moses brought his people, slave Jews in Egypt, back to their homeland? Scattering of Jews had been a regular feature before and after the time of Jesus. If at all anything was scattered more often, it must be the pollen.

 

So, it doesn't take a messiah, that too son of the God, to predict that the Jews will be scattered. By the way, if the Christians claim that the specific event of 70 CE was predicted by Jesus, then they should show atleast one mention about Jesus, either in history or hagiography, in the period preceding that. There is none. Jesus had not yet been invented by then. He was invented a little later and given a celestial status by St.(really?!) Paul almost a century later.

[karthik_v]

Here is what exactly Luke 21:24 says:

 

They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

What is the fact? In 70 CE, the Roman army led by Titus crushed the Jews led by Josephus. Only a few hundred folks were taken as prisoners and that too only to Rome. The rest of the population remained very much in Israel. If the accounts of Josephus are correct, only 2 generals and a total of about 40 warriors were taken prisoners. Hardly any sign of scattering! Looks like the church can only fool those who don't care to check the facts

 

[theist]

Isn't Haridas Thakura an incarnation of Prahlada Maharaja? If so that means you are saying Prahlada Maharaja is Jesus.

bhaktashab,

 

As abhi said below Haridas has been described as Lord Brahma and I believe Lord Caitanya said he was Prahlad.Others can offer more on how we are to hear Lord Caitanya's statements.

 

I base my SPECULATIONS on:

1) The similarities of their lives.(but similarities could just be similarities)

 

2)Having heard of others who I respect say this was the case.Also Tarun once posted that Srila Prabhupada was asked this question and he replied"Maybe".So that is also my position, 70%= maybe.

 

3)In the first chapter of the Book of John it clearly describes Christ as visarga, the secondary creator of all things.This is Brahmaji's position.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by leyh:

Instead of pointing the finger at alleged criminals,maybe we should pay more attention to our own criminality.All of us,whether knowingly or unknowingly commit offences every day and if the material world is a prison for living entities who misuse their independence(as Srila Prabhupada teaches)then are we not all criminals too?

 

In the Bible, the following words of transcendental advice from Jesus are recorded:"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." (Matthew 7:3-5)

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 05-24-2002).]

For your information, Comptroller and Audit General of India, a constitutional body wanted to verify the accounts of Teresa's organization in 1988. This led to major protests across the country and cabinet shot down this proposal for political reasons. They have not answered a single charge but claim that those who criticize them are demoniac. We've got to say "Phsysician! Heal Thyself".

 

It is one thing for a common man to have faults. But it is another thing when a "saint" does. And it is not a speck. Would you donate to Bhaktivedanta Ashram if they served rotten food that causes diseases ? No. Then why tolerate Teresa's injustice to the victims of her service. She does not have doctors, beds, well trained nurses, sterilized needles or proper medicines.

 

 

[shvu]

 

Looks like the church can only fool those who don't care to check the facts

Correct. In fact, this should be extended to all religions where the followers are usually conned with a lot of stories that do not stand up to verification. Surprisingly there exist a lot of people who are willing to accept statements given out by their religion prima facie, never for a moment doubting their authenticity.

 

Cheers