Sewage systems

[Rati]

So, BVI claims to have the low down on 'Vedic' systems of sewage. Curious that he thinks that stool fields were the norm, when in fact the Harappan sites all have indoor plumbing, like our modern system. He spreads his propaganda, which is very anti-technology, but what he offers us in return is some organic 'let nature take its course' methodology, that in the past was responsible for horrific infant mortality rates and water borne diseases.

 

I will respect JN Das's wishes and not insult the man's intelligence, and only deal with his theories.

 

For one, modern sewage treatment plants purify the water to the point that you can actually drink it safely. There are also even cutting edge plants that utilize bacteria instead of chemicals (so they obviously do not violate BVI's 'Vedic' principles). It is only reasonable to assert that the problem in India is lack of infrastructure as we take it for granted in the West.

 

I would be curious to know BVI's 'Vedic' solution to the malaria problem. In case anyone is not aware, the disease has killed many times more people than actual fighting in all of the wars fought in written history.

 

If he thinks he has some model to demonstrate the waste management as he describes it that actually does work, that would be interesting. However, some small community like Mayapura ISKCON is hardly the same as some large metropolitan area, neither population wise nor logistically.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-02-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-02-2002).]

[raga]

We are getting to the bottom of the controversy: In Vedic culture, did the cities have a stool-field where people evacuated whenever the nature called, or did they have a different system for it?

 

And another question: can anyone prove based on shruti, smriti or any recent commonly accepted itihasa that the Gosvamis walked two kilometers up and down every day for the sake of passing stool? And if so, does anyone know where they went? Then we could all follow in the footsteps of the Gosvamis.

 

And another question: do the practical ways of the saints' living evolve with the times? Sometimes we hear critique over any sadhu having a fan in his bhajan kutir in Braj. "The Gosvamis didn't have fans, so why should they?" At the time of the Gosvamis, Vraja was jungle for the most part, and jungle was cool. Nowadays no jungle, and people die in the summertime in lack of adequate ventilation. "Radharani kripa!" Well...

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

"The scientific basis of sewage consciousness". I was really looking forward to this thread.

[raga]

Originally posted by jndas:

"The scientific basis of sewage consciousness". I was really looking forward to this thread.

We are just trying to get to the bottom of the problems. OK?

[BVI]

Originally posted by Rati:

So, BVI claims to have the low down on 'Vedic' systems of sewage. Curious that he thinks that stool fields were the norm, when in fact the Harappan sites all have indoor plumbing, like our modern system. He spreads his propaganda, which is very anti-technology, but what he offers us in return is some organic 'let nature take its course' methodology, that in the past was responsible for horrific infant mortality rates and water borne diseases.

 

I will respect JN Das's wishes and not insult the man's intelligence, and only deal with his theories.

 

For one, modern sewage treatment plants purify the water to the point that you can actually drink it safely. There are also even cutting edge plants that utilize bacteria instead of chemicals (so they obviously do not violate BVI's 'Vedic' principles). It is only reasonable to assert that the problem in India is lack of infrastructure as we take it for granted in the West.

 

I would be curious to know BVI's 'Vedic' solution to the malaria problem. In case anyone is not aware, the disease has killed many times more people than actual fighting in all of the wars fought in written history.

 

If he thinks he has some model to demonstrate the waste management as he describes it that actually does work, that would be interesting. However, some small community like Mayapura ISKCON is hardly the same as some large metropolitan area, neither population wise nor logistically.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-02-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-02-2002).]

 

Before you go off on an psuedo-intellectual speculation fest to reduce the Vedic way to zero, and reconvince yourself of the greatness of the status quo and glorify the what Srila Prabhupada calls the modern demoniac system of ugra karma, let's focus on the objectives of the discussion I am willing to entertain at this time:

 

1) Stop raw sewage from leaking and seeping into Radha Kunda.

2) Take preventative measures to close down and back-fill all septic tanks and fields within 75 feet of the boundary of the kundas (at least the normal modern zoning definition of a safe distance from a well)

 

Figure out how you are going to accomplish this. Make your proposal and be constructive instead of trying to derail this effort in order to protect the so-called name of a few people from Bangladesh.

 

My proposal is clear. Make a modern zoning regulation to relocate all sewage or septic facilities 75 feet from Radha Kunda.

 

I think Radha Kunda at least deserves the minimum same treatment afforded by any rakshasha to any ordinary well.

 

Otherwise your policy of maintaining the status quo is tantamount to treating Radharani and Her favorite lake as a septic pool.

 

Get the so-called owner of the lake to inforce this policy. He is the leader right? You are his followers, so lead him if he has no insight, vision or appreciation. You are all realized Western cultured people so you can use your sales and marketing skills to convince him.

 

[raga]

1) Stop raw sewage from leaking and seeping into Radha Kunda.

2) Take preventative measures to close down and back-fill all septic tanks and fields within 75 feet of the boundary of the kundas (at least the normal modern zoning definition of a safe distance from a well)

I wish to thank you for these words of concern. I have two questions:

 

1. On what basis do you conclude that the tanks are leaking?

 

2. Do you know where the present tanks are located?

 

I take it that you have precise information in this regard, since you brought the issue up.

 

 

Get the so-called owner of the lake to inforce this policy. He is the leader right? You are his followers, so lead him if he has no insight, vision or appreciation. You are all realized Western cultured people so you can use your sales and marketing skills to convince him.

Please do remember that while he is the spiritual head there, and responsible for organizing festivals etc., he is not the governor or major of Radha Kund. I am not too familiar with the local bureaucracy, but I suspect this is something to be directly dealt with the government's local representative. Certainly it is not within the jurisdiction of the local Mahanta to decide whether such an operation will be undertaken or not. But I am waiting for further details on the local sewage system from you.

 

 

[Rati]

I want to see one of those cutting edge organic sewage treatment plants built, as well as a respectable infrastructure that includes medical facilites, phone lines, decent electric power, etc. This does not need to encroach on the area immediately surrounding the two kunds, however, in fact it shouldn't.

 

Also, since the crowds get quite huge at certain festival times, there should be a separate bathing gath built nearby for pilgrims, and a little Radha Kund jal can be added to it. That way the kund itself is not overtaxed with bathers.

 

I agree with BVI that any measure that can improve conditions in any of the holy places should be a top priority, but I think they should be sensible and practical as well. The picture of those tens of thousands of pilgrims trying to find a place to go potty in some field is not a pretty one.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-03-2002).]

[Shashi]

The sewage coming from the persons who are subsisting the satvic diets of milk and fruits is not bearing the diseases. Even so I am supporting very much the wider green strips about the river sides and holy places known as sacred sites.

What abbreviasian is BVI standing for?

[Rati]

On important consideration that some people seem to miss entirely is the fact that in ancient times the population worldwide not only was much tinier, but was situated mainly in rural areas. Also the urban centers were far smaller than our current ones. Hence, what might have worked well under those circumstances will not necessarily be practical or feasible today. As far as any archaeological evidence to indicate the sanitation arrangements, we have the buildings with the indoor plumbing excavated at the various Indus Valley civilization sites, but anything to substantiate the use of fields as outdoor latrines would have to be potsherds at best. Perhaps our amatueur paleontologists have something to add on this.

 

Another point that has already been raised is the impracticality of outdoor facilities in colder climates. When you started getting up near the arctic circle, you're talking danger of frostbite and water freezing before you can even pour it out of your lota to wash yourself. Sorry for the graphic detail, JN Das, but if we are to address the Radha Kund situation that BVI is concerned about, we need to consider all aspects and options.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-03-2002).]

[BVI]

Originally posted by raga:

Please do remember that while he is the spiritual head there, and responsible for organizing festivals etc., he is not the governor or major of Radha Kund.

Radha Kunda is governed by a committee and there is an elected chairman, which this term is currently a Bengali woman who sells bangles while squatting on the side of the road. The other members are reportedly busy siphoning funds from the village budget as fast as they can. She and the committe are powerless and effectively non-existent. The babajis should not pass the buck. They are land owners and have full rights to drain out and back fill all septic tanks they own within 75 feet of the edge of all the kundas. Others will follow suit. The babajis should set the example and lead the others. This will be done after a series of professional water analysis conducted to everyone's satisfaction. The alternative is to take the long walk or the short one if you are confident of being a brajabasi, or to establish public facilities outside the protective range of 75 ft. from any body of water or well (that means Syama and Lalita Kundas and any others).

 

The water was tested recently by one devotee and human fecal matter was found in very high levels.

 

Septic tank, old septic tank, septic tank built in India, and old septic tanks in India means leaking. Ground settling, earth movement (quakes), and other stresses from above cause cracking, seepage and so on. If they have drain fields then they are designed to leak slowly over time. I have seen new ones built in Radha Kunda and old ones serviced (opened and emptied) and it appears that the standard is just to build a box out of brick and mortar, then fill it with juice and let it sit until it get full, then bring in you local bhangi and have him empty it into the street by the bucket full (sorry no suction hose trucks). It is not pretty. Radha Kunda deserves 2000 meters distance from this stuff, at least. I understand from aural tradition that there is a place in Vraja which is a small square section of land which is representative of the material creation, just as Vaikuntha and other spiritual planets have their representative harmonic counterpart in Vraja. Apparently that is where the Gosvamis would go from Radha Kunda to pass stool and urine. That would explain a lot and the argument that all of Vraja is cintamini, excepting that theoretical location which would be material energy--a most appropriate place to unload your baggage. Something to research at least. Vrindavan is a mystical and far out place which we have a lot to learn about. It is not ordinary in any sense. There are rules and ways of doing things that we need to respect if we are going to be there.

 

 

 

[Rati]

It seems to me that ISKCON has always had much deeper pockets (maybe not so deep now with their mounting legal fees and bankruptcy proceedings) to take care of sanitation at Radha Kund than any other Gaudiya group. If the infrastructure is not sound, then why have they not acted? Sectarian blinders on, perhaps? I am sure the costs we are talking about are mere pocket change to them.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-03-2002).]

[raga]

Originally posted by Rati:

It seems to me that ISKCON has always had much deeper pockets (maybe not so deep now with their mounting legal fees and bankruptcy proceedings) to take care of sanitation at Radha Kund than any other Gaudiya group. If the infrastructure is not sound, then why have they not acted? Sectarian blinders on, perhaps? I am sure the costs we are talking about are mere pocket change to them.

 

That's what I was thinking about. I'm sure it would also contribute to the good relations of ISKCON people and the others at Radha Kund, if they were to first of all show the example with their tanks, and secondly undertake a campaign to get others to do the same -- and possibly assist management and finance-wise, since this is obviously something they know how to do.

 

[Rati]

We can now throw global warming into the mix. Will the dhama be underwater in the next fifty years, should the trend continue? The Bush administration has finally admitted that the problem is real (in case you have not seen today's news stories), but has no plans to curb industry's air pollution. How much longer will world leaders shy away from addressing the threats to planet earth?

 

[raga]

ISKCON has two properties at Radha Kund, the Manipuri Gopal Mandir and the new building of Bhagavat Panda (I recall that's what his name was) on the bank of Radha Kund, the one with the riflemen 24/7 around it. What kind of arrangements do they have for sewage, do you know?

[Rati]

Just one more comment about sanitation worldwide. The USA and parts of Europe have developed some very high public health standards, but when you are speaking of countries in Aftrica that are very poor (and India no doubt lies somewhere in between), they are lucky to avoid hideous diseases like river blindness. Also even in the hi-tech countries, the standards for clean air and water are constantly evolving and being revised. Asbestos, for example, was not considered to be dangerous a few decades ago, and was quite ubiquitous in many building construction materials for its fire proof properties.

 

One statistic that often hits the news media in the USA is that most cases of food poisoning occur in household kitchens from poor handling of raw ingredients and not washing everything with soap and water as needed. Are Vaishnava kitchens immune? I remember one incident in the Boston ISKCON temple where several devotees became violently ill from something they ate.

[Rati]

Not only was there jungle in Mahaprabhu's time, Raga, but Radha Kund itself was a swamp where many dangerous crocodiles were living. There was considerable effort required to make it a place even possible to visit by pilgrims, let alone habitable.

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-04-2002).]

[raga]

Originally posted by Rati:

Not only was there jungle in Mahaprabhu's time, Raga, but Radha Kund itself was a swamp where many dangerous crocodiles were living. There was considerable effort required to make it a place even possible to visit by pilgrims, let alone habitable.

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-04-2002).]

There was actually an alligator living in Shyama Kund until a few decades ago, when he attacked one baba who was taking bath. Then the local maharaja came and hunted down the alligator to protect the sadhus.

 

[Guest guest]

 

It's so typical of the mentality in India these days,or even of Vaisnavas worldwide.

 

Here where i live in america,every little park has clean effecient rest rooms.

 

In India,In the holiest place,with all the powers of the Government and wealthy people western and indian,there is not even proper facilities after all this time.

 

Is Vrndavana still filthy?

 

What is this indicative of?

 

When someone suggested ISKCON should take care of it ,that is so typical.

 

The wealth of Indians around the world is huge,if they cannot maintain the simplest levels of cleanliness at the holiest place,then what is their praying ,chanting ,and big talk for?

 

You should put your money where your mouth is, How expensive is it to clean up these holy places, In India the cost must be much smaller then America, yet everywhere you go here there is plenty of cooperation for building facilities.

 

No wonder India is such a mess,the people with wealth are greedy,self centered, and all talk when it comes to practical matters of faith.

 

Lets see if some of you wealthy Vaisnavas can spare a little of your chapati money for the Dhama, otherwise just shut up,and dont expect ISKCON or the corrupt government officials to do anything,this is your chance to show what you are made of.

[Rati]

Heck, I've seen plenty of corporate offices in the USA over the past ten years with appalling filth in the rest rooms. I won't even mention the facilities in gas stations across the land. The problem is hardly indigenous to India, my friend. Vishnu maintains & Vaishnavas are supposed to leave a place cleaner than they found it.

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-05-2002).]

[Rati]

I believe they are actually crocodiles in that part of the world (different from alligators). The question arises: Are they encroaching our territory or we on theirs? Did Radharani gather them their to guard her kund?

[raga]

Originally posted by Rati:

I believe they are actually crocodiles in that part of the world (different from alligators). The question arises: Are they encroaching our territory or we on theirs? Did Radharani gather them their to guard her kund?

Hmm... You would have to ask the local maharaja I guess, or otherwise Radharani Herself.

 

Given that Radha Kund was meant for the benefit of visiting saints, I think an element of fear of crocodiles there would not fit into the scheme of Radhaji. It might (and probably would) distract the minds of the pilgrims from focusing on the sanctity of the place.

 

[Rati]

Here's one Srila Prabhupada would no doubt have enjoyed: The ongoing problems with toilets on the space shuttle, due to the weightless conditions.

 

Should we just view our planet in the same context as some closed system like a spacecraft? Is it merely a matter of recycling of waste, or should we be relying on the forces of nature as BVI suggests? I personally think a much worse problem than sewage facing us globally is that of garbage that keeps mounting daily. All of that packaging being discarded is really quite absurd. What our hi-tech society needs to do is either come up with some materials that are quickly biodegradable or an efficent and cost effective means of reuse. Plus we as consumers are forced to pay more for shrink wrap around our CDs that are already neatly packaged in their plastic jewel cases. When will the insanity stop?

 

[raga]

Lets see if some of you wealthy Vaisnavas can spare a little of your chapati money for the Dhama, otherwise just shut up,and dont expect ISKCON or the corrupt government officials to do anything,this is your chance to show what you are made of.

Raise your thumbs, all the rich people!

[Guest guest]

 

Rati, you are comparing a gas station in podunk, to the Dhama.

Where I live every facility is working and cleaned daily, gas stations are privately owned, they are not public.Why compare some funky gas station in oshkosh to Vrndavana's problems?

 

The many millionaires and even billionaires in India and around the world who call themselves Hindu, should take up the responsibility of giving some care to the Dhama, surely their stock portfolios and expensive lifestyles are being derived from the good karma they have made in the past, is their future so secure? Depending on the government to improve anything in India is laughable, This is your chance ,When will you have such a chance again?

 

 

[Rati]

Au contraire - I was not comparing the dhAma to anything else. There have been statements that have referred specifically to Braj Mandal and statements about the global situation planet wide. This thread tends to drift around a bit, as they all do around here. I do not have a problem with that.

 

Yes, the dhAma is special (we all are acquainted with the theology), but it is also affected by macrocosmic events, like a huge influx of pilgrims from outside, at least as far as the material conditions we are presented with when we visit there.

 

At any rate, I think we are in agreement about those with the resources and what they should be doing to address the problem. If I were a Bill Gates, which I most certainly am not, then I could personally contribute the funds needed - and most certainly would without a moment's hesitation.

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-05-2002).]