Sewage systems

[BVI]

Originally posted by raga:

ISKCON has two properties at Radha Kund, the Manipuri Gopal Mandir and the new building of Bhagavat Panda (I recall that's what his name was) on the bank of Radha Kund, the one with the riflemen 24/7 around it. What kind of arrangements do they have for sewage, do you know?

The Manipura property is not ISKCON. It is a Manipur trust with one GBC as a member. THe rest are non-ISKCON members.

 

The Brajabasi property supposedly donated to ISKCON is under dispute. ISKCON has effectively lost control of the property as far as I know.

 

Practically, ISKCON has no property in Radha Kunda at this moment. If they reclaim that property I will push them to close off those septic tanks as well.

 

 

[BVI]

Originally posted by Rati:

It seems to me that ISKCON has always had much deeper pockets (maybe not so deep now with their mounting legal fees and bankruptcy proceedings) to take care of sanitation at Radha Kund than any other Gaudiya group. If the infrastructure is not sound, then why have they not acted? Sectarian blinders on, perhaps? I am sure the costs we are talking about are mere pocket change to them.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-03-2002).]

You sound like the Indian govt. They mismanage, allow the cows to roam around the streets and eat plastic bags, then attack ISKCON for not solving the problem they are responsible to solve on the basis of ISKCON's perceived deep pockets. Then when you ask for the Govt for land to solve the problem they deny you. This is what Canakya calls rascal mentality. A rascal, he explains, knowing that he is liable for something to a person preemptively criticizes him so that he can slither out of his obligation.

 

If the babajis are ready to pass the buck on this one, then they should also be ready to pass on ownership and control of their property. Ownership means responsibility.

 

If the babajis are too incompetent to manage their affairs and are requesting us to come in and literally wipe their butts, then maybe they shouldn't have those properties to begin with. Looks like they have been promoted to their level of incompetency and are in need of a lateral shift away from the edges of the kunda.

 

Are they really so strapped for cash that they can't arrange for some fill dirt? Each septic tank they have should cost about Rs. 200 each for a truckload of dirt. That means $4 US. Maybe they have ten such tanks? That would be $40 plus labor at $4 per day for one laborer working eight hours. Which babaji cannot collect that much from even one of his Western admirers? The fact is that they have the cash. They lack the respect and devotion to Radharani, as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati explained. "There is no scarcity of anything in this world. The only thing that is lacking is Krishna consciousness."

 

Vaishnava means they leave a place cleaner. Since this group of babajis hit Radha Kunda, we have to say "Vaishnava ke?" What kind of Vaishnava are you who passes stool in Radha Kunda?

 

Walking a mile a day for Radharani's service doesn't seem to be asking for much since they go much further to collect food, what to speak of Giriraj parikrama, which some are proud of doing every day (approx. 11 miles).

 

For eating and the tongue they can go miles and miles to remote villages to enjoy varieties of subjis, but for passing stool and respecting Radharani they cannot go even one mile?

 

Who said they accept these people as gurus?

Guru means to set an example. What kind of example is it to pass stool on the banks of Radha Kunda?

 

We need to redefine the limit of the bank to at least 75 feet. I would prefer 2000 meters, but I know it won't happen.

 

So let's get the babajis to follow in the footsteps of at least the 6 billion Rakshasas who show more respect to an ordinary well, since they are not willing to follow in the footsteps of the Six Gosvamis in respecting Radharani's lake.

 

Rakshasa culture dictates that one should not pass stool or have a septic tank within 75 feet of any ordinary well. Let's convince the babajis to respect Radha Kunda at least this much by filling in their tanks with dirt. The whole project will probably cost less than $108.

 

If I see it gets done and I don't care how it is arranged financially or politically, I will pay for the entire cost of the work and then some. I am willing to pay bribes to the tune of $500.

 

Otherwise I will organize a massive campaign in the Indian media and in Vraja showing the lab results of the water test and how the babajis are passing stool in Radharani's lake like eco-terrorists.

 

Be thankful I am gentleman enough to give them a chance to rectify their mistakes. I am not just out to attack or find fault, but I will do everything socially, economicially and politically within my power to protect and defend my object of worship from offenses like this.

 

I am giving them until August 1 2002 to complete the work. That is more than enough time. It actually can be completed in a week.

 

Those of you who call them guru may want to act as a dhyuti to relay this message as any chaste manjari would do in the line of service.

 

Mr. Pandita: "Clean-up your act or get out of town."

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by BVI (edited 06-05-2002).]

[BVI]

When ISKCON actually gets a place in Radha Kunda, then I am sure they will become locally conscious and make positive contributions as they have with various initiatives in Vrindavan like the reforestation project, Go-shalla, cow feeding to stray cows, and so on. ISKCON means benefitting others and that has historically been most devotees mood. ISKCON devotees actually appreciate the brajabasi and the holy dhama from my observations and like to serve brajabasis like the food for life and the kitchari program for the Vrindavan widows, etc.

 

[This message has been edited by BVI (edited 06-05-2002).]

[chameli]

It is wonderful to see that someone is passionate enough about the sewerage in Radhakunda to actually do something about it instead of just defending why it's there. It hasn't always been such a problem, but now it has become so severe that something really needs to be done. Last year was the first time that bathing in Radhakunda felt like bathing in sewerage.

[bhaktajoy]

II never went to Vrndavan.I lived in lucknow and even in the capital the conditions are filthy then what to speak of dhama.Government officials are all corrupt and lack of management is all over the place.I am glad BVI maharaja you are doing something.God bless u.

[Rati]

Your concern is appreciated and not to worry - it is not lost on me (although I have not been to Radha Kund in many, many years, so could not speak authoritatively one way or the other). However, that topic was already discussed on a thread that JN Das closed down. This topic is on your idea of Vedic sanitation and how it is ever going to be workable with the current world population literally bursting at the seams. So, please respond to that, if you think you have it all solved.

 

sevak - Rati

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-11-2002).]

[BVI]

Originally posted by Rati:

Your concern is appreciated and not to worry - it is not lost on me (although I have not been to Radha Kund in many, many years, so could not speak authoritatively one way or the other). However, that topic was already discussed on a thread that JN Das closed down. This topic is on your idea of Vedic sanitation and how it is ever going to be workable with the current world population literally bursting at the seams. So, please respond to that, if you think you have it all solved.

 

sevak - Rati

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-11-2002).]

Some points-

 

1. The capacity for a dug well is ten families.

 

2. Fines for voiding faeces in a holy place, in a place for water, in a temple, and in royal property are one pana rising successively by one pana, half of that for passing urine. If these are due to medicine, illness or fear, the persons are not to be fined.

 

Concerning dwelling places:

 

3. He should make the cow dung hill, the water course or the well, not in a place other than that suited to the house, except the waste-water ditch for a woman in confinement till the end of ten days from delivery.

 

The idea here is that there is to be no septic system in the house, except for the 10 days following child birth when a woman is not to leave the house.

 

4. Of sheds, court-yards, latrines, fire places, and pounding sheds, and of all open spaces, use in common is desired.

 

Shared bathrooms is the "in thing". Passing stool in your house is uncivilized, as is wearing shoes in the house. House is for making a sanctified asrama for sadhana, puja, cooking, eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. The presence of septic wastes and the activities of releasing them disturb the purity of all these functions.

 

Uncleanliness is a cause of disease, and where you dwell is not the place to park your septic matter. No matter how well you clean a bathroom it never becomes clean. You cannot maintain cleanliness wherever there is a bathroom, just as your body, below the naval, is never considered clean.

 

By even touching the stool room you must take bath to restore cleanliness. That the stool room touches your dwelling place physically, aurally, olfactorily, and is in range of vision is not pure or favorable for the activities to be conducted in the home.

 

For sastra to urge a woman who just gave birth 10 days prior to get up and go out to pass stool is really something when you consider what a woman's condition is at likely to be at that time. Other than that there is no scope for turning your home into a septic field. The injunction for pregnant women really drives home the importance and seriousness of the importance of septic arrangements and the need to go outside for releasing them.

 

How many diseases are contracted from the home where septic arrangements are integrated with living quarters? I am sure the CDC or the AMA must have those stats.

 

Srila Prabhupada would point out the folly of the pride in being able to reduce one's fat through yoga, or some advanced technique. He would retort, "Why should you increase your fat in the first place?"

 

The same logic can be applied to disease. "Yes we have manufactured so many pharmacueticals to combat diseases." but why should you live in a manner than invites disease in the first place? Children want to touch everything, chew everything and put their hands in their mouth, and they come infected and spread diseases by getting into the bathrooms, and so on. Why even give that a chance to happen? The common cold is only common where the private unclean bathroom is found, I suspect. Touching dirty taps, sinks, tubs, toilets, and so on is all unnecessary and artificial demonic arrangements for laziness and people unwilling to undergo the tapasya of being a human being. Your big city arrangements and the current state of filth therein is the reaction for being in the mode of passion and ignorance. Move them out to the rural areas and establish sane and pure villages where people can achieve cleanliness and the mode of goodness. City means hell. Those who are attached there are condemned prisoners who must suffer. What can be done for them other than convince them that there is something higher than the hell they live in?

 

Of course the demonic leaders will never cooperate and agree that people will be allowed to keep their homes purified, like the demons who pass stool and puss on the brahmanas sacrificial ceremonies to disturb the success of their religious rites. Home means sacrificial arena for performing samskaras, yajnas, and so on.

 

They will insist that you live like a filthy swine and keep your stool with you and pass stool on the head of your Deity. I was in one devotee's home where the bathroom upstairs made a loud sound when flushing, and the pipe was running down the wall where the temple room was. It was so horrible. But it was a rented house and he was stuck.

 

For preaching Krishna has to tolerate as much as we do. But if we are talking about our own farm communities, or reforming society, then we have to go with the Vedic system if we want to be classified as human. Tolerating animals to benefit them is a preaching matter and must be done. Srila Prabhupada had to keep his bhoga in a refrigerator along with meat when he first arrived in the USA from India. What can be done? What is that thing a Vaishnava is unwilling to do to please Krishna?

 

 

 

[theist]

I'll watch my step and stay clear of the stool controversy.

 

But I can't help realize how the joke is on all of us that are so attached to these gross bodies.Eat and s_it, eat and s_it.My god.Time to trade up to a siddha-svarupa 'eh?

 

 

[BVI]

Originally posted by theist:

I'll watch my step and stay clear of the stool controversy.

 

But I can't help realize how the joke is on all of us that are so attached to these gross bodies.Eat and s_it, eat and s_it.My god.Time to trade up to a siddha-svarupa 'eh?

 

 

Yeah. So attached to the body and so detached from Radharani and Krishna that we are ready to sit right on the bank of the top most place in creation, Their favorite place, and plop a big stinking dodo, and then try to philosophically defend it. No sense of shame, common sense, respect or gratitude.

 

Offering all respect and fully surrendering everything you have doesn't include offering your stool to the kunda.

 

 

[Kulapavana]

that was a very interesting topic, too bad I missed it /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

if anbody was interested, I would love to help in this project of dham sanitation. I am a scientist in the waste water / drinking water field here in US (I currently manage a commercial environmental laboratory).

[Dervish]

I think this is a serious problem which needs to be dealt with as soon as possible. A group should be formed if necessary, and we can all chip in.

[Kulapavana]

as the population density increases, sanitation is becoming more and more important... and complex. you see it all over the world. it is not rocket science, but it is science /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Guest guest]

Could the harrapan civilisation really be considered part of "hindu" history? perhaps indoor plumbing is one of the differences.

[Kulapavana]

when you read descriptions of vedic cities in Mahabharat (full text) or Puranas (see description of Dwaraka in Srimad Bhagavatam) they had very elaborate water and sewage systems (separate of course!). vedic civilization was not all rural and material science was very advanced (artificial lights were used, powered by electricity captured from the charges in the air). India 500 years ago had very little to do with vedic civilization.