atma Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 Maybe in the other threads somebody already answer this but sometimes overnight so many postings occur that I don't read everything. I would like to know if it is possible to develop different rasas in the spiritual world or is it permanent? I mean like from sakhya to go to parental or madhurya.Mother Yasoda is always in that rasa? Is not possibly for her to become a gopi? Or the cowherd boys change to parental rasa? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 Once you're there, there will be no change. During the stage of practice, one's inclinations may change due to various reasons (I'll have to look that one up, in BRS it is explained), but at the time of perfection there will no longer be changes. Imagine if one day Krishna and the boys came to his friend's house to take him along to herd the cows, and the friend would inform Krishna of his decision to shift over to gopi bhava because he wasn't satisfied with his friendship. However, the bliss there is ever increasing, and ever-new ways of serving come up. In this sense rasa becomes higher and higher, but it stays within the limits of the devotee's sthayi-bhava (permanent emotion). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 Originally posted by raga: Imagine if one day Krishna and the boys came to his friend's house to take him along to herd the cows, and the friend would inform Krishna of his decision to shift over to gopi bhava because he wasn't satisfied with his friendship. Why would the shift have to be motivated by disatisfaction? We switch from one attempt at enjoyment to another based on acceptance then rejection but isn't that the definition of a materialy conditioned mind.If so then surely we can't impose it on the spiritual state. I have no knowledge on the question at hand but just question the reasoning raga. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 Originally posted by theist: Why would the shift have to be motivated by disatisfaction? We switch from one attempt at enjoyment to another based on acceptance then rejection but isn't that the definition of a materialy conditioned mind.If so then surely we can't impose it on the spiritual state. I have no knowledge on the question at hand but just question the reasoning raga. Exactly. We can't impose dissatisfaction into the spiritual realm. Therefore there is no change of rasa. In the Caitanya Caritamrta (Adi 4.43) it is stated: nija nija bhAva sabe zreSTha kari’ mAne nija-bhAve kare kRSNa-sukha AsvAdane "Everyone considers his very own mood the be the greatest of all, and accepting this, in his own mood he tastes great happiness with Krishna." Each and every devotee considers his own mood to be the very best way in which he pleases Krishna. Therefore, why would he want to change it? Besides, we have to understand the humanlike nature of the pastimes of Vraja. People don't just change around. Mama does not become pal, and sweetie doesn't become papa. Just like we have it in this world. [Now, please don't start giving examples to the contrary please -- I don't want to hear about girls becoming boys and mothers becoming sweeties.] It would be a disruption in the natural relationships of Vraja. We may speculate, "But what if someone wants..." The answer is, "No, he does not want." As simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 No that is not what I meant by disatisfaction not being an impetus for change.There can be other impetus for change which our minds can't yet conceive of. But let's step down a notch.One can change from awe and reverence into a more intimate mood right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atma Posted June 4, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Dasya rasa is also permanent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Originally posted by theist: No that is not what I meant by disatisfaction not being an impetus for change.There can be other impetus for change which our minds can't yet conceive of. But let's step down a notch.One can change from awe and reverence into a more intimate mood right? Given that our primary source for comprehending the beyond is scripture and saints, and since neither have indicated that such a change might take place, and given that it also goes against a basic understanding of humanlike pastimes in Goloka, I think it is safe to conclude that it does not happen. When you get there and if it does, please come down and tell us about it. Aisvarya -> Madhurya, you mean from Vaikuntha to Goloka? No. No such records anywhere. Besides, Visvanatha outrules this in Raga Vartma Candrika (dvitiya prakasa) by explaining how one must take birth in the prakata lila (manifest pastimes) of Krishna in this world, and experience all the emotions from purva raga (falling in love) onwards and the social relations in Vraja, and how this is not possible just by popping straight into Goloka. Prakata lila must be in between. Visvanatha argues why one can't directly go from here to Goloka, but this is equally relevant from going anywhere else, given the need to develop emotions and gain certain impressions of taking birth and growing together with Krishna in Vraja which one would not get otherwise (if he would go directly to aprakata-lila in Goloka). Now, to propose that people in Vaikuntha start meditating on a gopi-svarupa and attain svarupa-siddhi, and then take birth in Bhauma Goloka in this world and then go to Goloka Vrindavana sounds like a very extraordinary proposal. I would tend to discard such a proposal. Of course, we may say that "anything may happen". That's true, but it does not mean it does. There may be any special pastime where something happens which breaks the rule so to say, but I guess we are speaking of basic principles here, aren't we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atma Posted June 4, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 What about the sages that saw Lord Ramachandra in the forest and later become gopis in Krsna leela? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Way out my depth grade here.I'm much more comfortable in shallow water. Found this though. Upendra: Swamiji, if our rasa with Krsna is eternal, and we want to have the rasa of lover with Krsna, is it possible to change? If our rasa is like father to son, we can never become lover? Prabhupäda: No. You have got eternal relationship with Krsna. That cannot be changed. You’re constitutionally in position, in a certain position. Either you have got... But every relationship is spiritual and nice. If you have got that inclination that you want to be Krsna’s lover, then that means originally you are already in relationship with Kåñëa in that stage. That will be revealed when you are in perfectional devotional stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Prabhupäda: No. There is perfection everywhere in the spiritual world, but it is a question of variety, taste. When you take rasagullä, don’t take kachori, that does not mean kachori is not perfect. It is a question of taste. Somebody likes kachori, somebody likes rasagullä. Not that kachori is inferior to rasagullä; rasagullä is inferior to kachori. Haàsadüta: So that means if someone is situated in that svarüpa... Prabhupäda: Yes. Everything is svarüpa. Everything is svarüpa. Haàsadüta: Suppose someone is situated as Viñëudüta. He may change his taste. Prabhupäda: Why he shall change it? Haàsadüta: He may get a taste for associating with Kåñëa. Prabhupäda: The change is taking place in this material world. There all tastes are fixed up, rasa, eternal, eternal rasa. Every one of us has a different taste of associating with Kåñëa, and that will be realized when one is liberated. Haàsadüta: So that’s fixed already. Prabhupäda: Yes. When you are liberated, you will understand in which way you are related with Kåñëa. That is called svarüpa-siddhi. But that is attained when you are actually perfect in devotional service. Just like in our family, we enjoy different rasas. We have got one kind of relationship with wife, one kind of relationship with sons and daughters, one kind of relation with friends, one kind of relationship with servants, one kind of relationship with property. So similarly, Kåñëa... The whole creation is His family, and He has got relationship in that way. So why the son will change his relationship into husband and wife? Haàsadüta: I see. Prabhupäda: Yes. Because every relationship is very palatable. The gentleman, the head of the family, his relationship with wife and his relationship with servant is as much palatable. Maybe some degradation, but it is palatable. There is no question of changing. Not that “I am tasting this rasa at the present moment. Then I will get better rasas.” No, that is not. Everyone thinks, “My rasa is the best.” Although there is comparative gradation, but everyone thinks. These things are explained in Caitanya-caritämåta. Why don’t you see? Haàsadüta: And Nectar of Devotion. Prabhupäda: Yes. Everyone thinks, “My relationship with Kåñëa is the best.” Haàsadüta: So it’s not a matter of aspiring to some... Prabhupäda: No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationship with Kåñëa. Even the trees in Våndävana, they want to serve Kåñëa silently in that way, supplying fruits and flowers. That is their änanda, everyone enjoying the supreme bliss. When Kåñëa comes, takes a flower or fruit, that is their enjoyment: “Oh...” Revaténandana: When Kåñëa doesn’t come, then they are feeling separation? Prabhupäda: Yes, certainly. That is another bliss, to feel separation from Kåñëa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Originally posted by atma: What about the sages that saw Lord Ramachandra in the forest and later become gopis in Krsna leela? This is during sadhana, not siddhi. As I said, due to new impetus or aparadha, inclunation for obtaining a certain rasa may change during the time of sadhana (I'll look this up later today from BRS). When siddhi is attained, it is permanent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shashi Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Originally posted by raga: Once you're there, there will be no change. The Lila is showing otherwise. Are you not knowing Gopis concerns when they are thinking Kaliya will drown Lord? It is Vatsalya. You are not prpoerly understand the synchronicities of the rasas and are implanting rigidities on same. Are you eating too much salt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shashi Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Originally posted by atma: Dasya rasa is also permanent? Why be worrying AtmaJi? Every rasa having unlimited getting more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Originally posted by Shashi: The Lila is showing otherwise. Are you not knowing Gopis concerns when they are thinking Kaliya will drown Lord? It is Vatsalya. You are not prpoerly understand the synchronicities of the rasas and are implanting rigidities on same. Are you eating too much salt? Shashiji, I recommend you study Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu, the second section of the ocean of devotion. Do you know the five constituents of bhakti-rasa? The sthayi-bhava of the gopis does not change. Waves of other feelings may rise and fall in the ocean of their sthayi-bhava, which is and remains madhurya-rati. <small> [This message has been edited by raga (edited 06-04-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Originally posted by atma: Dasya rasa is also permanent? In Vaikuntha, dasya is permanent. In Vrindavana, there is no suddha-dasya, but dasya is always mixed with friendship, parental affection or amorous affection. Nevertheless, it is also permanent. Please do understand that there are various vyabhicari-bhavas, various emotions which are like waves rising and falling in the vast ocean of sthayi-bhava (permanent basic emotion, one of the five). Wherever one is in a perfected state, there his sthayi-bhava (santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhurya) is a permanent foundational emotion. <small> [This message has been edited by raga (edited 06-04-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhaktavasya Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 I haven't got scriptural reference, but I believe it is in Nectar of Devotion that says in madhurya rasa all other rasas are contained. In other words, when a devotee is in love with Krishna as lover and beloved there are emotions of wanting to protect the Lord, that Krishna is one's best friend, and eternal servitude. True? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Originally posted by Bhaktavasya: I haven't got scriptural reference, but I believe it is in Nectar of Devotion that says in madhurya rasa all other rasas are contained. In other words, when a devotee is in love with Krishna as lover and beloved there are emotions of wanting to protect the Lord, that Krishna is one's best friend, and eternal servitude. True? <blockquote><font color=blue><center>yathottaram asau svAda-vizeSollAsa-mayy api ratir vAsanayA svAdvI bhAsate kApi kasyacit</center> "Increasing love is experienced in various tastes, one above another. But that love which has the highest taste in the gradual succession of desires manifests itself in the form of conjugal love." (Bhakti-rasAmRta-sindhu, 2.5.38) <center>pUrva-pUrva-rasera guNa——pare pare haya dui-tina gaNane paJca paryanta bADaya</center> "Of each previous rasa, its qualities exist in the following one. Thus we count two, three and up to five." <center>guNAdhikye svAdAdhikya bADe prati-rase zAnta-dAsya-sakhya-vAtsalyera guNa madhurete vaise</center> "As the qualities increase, so the taste also increases in each and every mellow. Therefore the qualities found in zAnta-rasa, dAsya-rasa, sakhya-rasa and vAtsalya-rasa are all manifested in mAdhurya-rasa." <center> (Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya-lila 8.84-86)<blockquote> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sha Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Originally posted by Bhaktavasya: I haven't got scriptural reference, but I believe it is in Nectar of Devotion that says in madhurya rasa all other rasas are contained. In other words, when a devotee is in love with Krishna as lover and beloved there are emotions of wanting to protect the Lord, that Krishna is one's best friend, and eternal servitude. True? If you have $100.00, $1.00 is also included in it but $1.00 do not contain $100.00. Similarly, a devotee situated in Madhurya rasa some times enjoys serving the Lord in other 'rasa' like, Vatsalya, Sakhya, Dasya but the other devotees of three rasas, namely Vatsalya, Sakhya, Dasya have no 'adhicaara' and can not serve their Lord in the topmost 'Madhurya Rasa'. It is our experience also that a wife some times acts like a friend, takes orders as a servant and feeds like a mother but the friend, servant and mother can never have the right nor desire to make love as the wife. Another thing, 'Santa rasa' is the bliss experienced by Yogis and Jnanis through their meditation on Impersonal Brahman and it has no place in Vrindavan according to the Rasik Acaryas. Here is an excerpt from another site (Bhajan Kutir) about Santarasa: 20) There is no santa-rasa in Vraja; the animals and non-moving species are not in santa rasa. Mahaprabhu proclaims in Caitanya-caritamrta that He makes the three worlds dance in four rasas (cari bhava bhakti diya nacaimu bhuvana), not in five. Hantayam adrir abala haridasa varyah (Bhag. 10.21.18) confirms that mountains like Giriraja are in dasya-rasa. The cows in Vraja are in vatsalya-rasa (see the Bhagavata Canto 10, Chapter 13). The statement vamsi priyasakhi from the Brahma-samhita .56 proves that even the flute is in madhura-rasa. If you read the purports of C.C.2.8. 294 and C.C. 2.19. 183-184 by ACBVSP you can understand more about Santa rasa. <small><font color="white"> [This message has been edited by sha (edited 06-04-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Bhagavata 11.12.8: kevalena hi bhavena gopyo gavo naga mrgah ye ’nye mudha-dhiyo nagah siddha mam iyur anjasa The inhabitants of Vrndavana, including the gopis, cows, unmoving creatures such as the twin arjuna trees, animals, living entities with stunted consciousness such as bushes and thickets, and snakes such as Kaliya, all achieved the perfection of life by unalloyed love for Me and thus very easily achieved Me. An excerpt from Visvanatha’s commentary: The cows loved Lord Krsna in vatsalya-rasa, or the love of parents for a child, because the cows were always supplying milk to child Krsna. Unmoving objects like Govardhana Hill and other hills and mountains loved Lord Krsna as a friend, and the ordinary animals, trees and bushes of Vrndavana loved Lord Krsna in dasya-rasa, or with love of a servant for his master. Snakes like Kaliya also developed this love in servitude, and after relishing their loving service to Lord Krsna, all of them went back home, back to Godhead. <small> [This message has been edited by raga (edited 06-04-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sha Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 The statement vamsi priyasakhi from the Brahma-samhita .56 proves that even the flute is in madhura-rasa. Sri Roopagoswami has also confirmed this in Sri Ujjvala Nilamani. 2.18-20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shashi Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Originally posted by raga: Wherever one is in a perfected state, there his sthayi-bhava (santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhurya) is a permanent foundational emotion. ] Yes and in the Braj, Jasodha Maiya is foundational in the Vatsalya and never the Madhurya which is what you are now saying. There is no Madhurya in same. [This message has been edited by Shashi (edited 06-04-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shashi Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Originally posted by Bhaktavasya: I haven't got scriptural reference, but I believe it is in Nectar of Devotion that says in madhurya rasa all other rasas are contained. In other words, when a devotee is in love with Krishna as lover and beloved there are emotions of wanting to protect the Lord, that Krishna is one's best friend, and eternal servitude. True? True, I am seeing that somewhere also. Are you feeling the better now? You must be knowing I was only jjokings with you in the JijaJi's toking topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shashi Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Originally posted by Sha: If you have $100.00, $1.00 is also included in it but $1.00 do not contain $100.00. On the other hand but we must also be considering that Tamil Nadu is in India and not India in Tamil Nadu and STILL we may arrive in Tamil Nadu and and be saying "Mother India at last". Is this being a proper counter to your reasoned demonstrations ShaJi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 -- Originally posted by raga: Wherever one is in a perfected state, there his sthayi-bhava (santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhurya) is a permanent foundational emotion. -- Originally posted by Shashi: Yes and in the Braj, Jasodha Maiya is foundational in the Vatsalya and never the Madhurya which is what you are now saying. There is no Madhurya in same. What are you speaking about? You may want to refer to the post in which I said the thing on which you are commenting. It absolutely does not say so in my post quoted above. You are not prpoerly understand the synchronicities of the rasas and are implanting rigidities on same. Are you eating too much salt? And please spare me from this, particularly if you have no intention to seriously respond to what I write. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shashi Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Originally posted by raga: And please spare me from this, particularly if you have no intention to seriously respond to what I write. I am being most serious on this topics but weather my pwoints are worthy of your serious attentions that is being another matter. Sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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