Rasa

[sha]

Now, to propose that people in Vaikuntha start meditating on a gopi-svarupa and attain svarupa-siddhi, and then take birth in Bhauma Goloka in this world and then go to Goloka Vrindavana sounds like a very extraordinary proposal. I would tend to discard such a proposal.

The Blessed Wife of Maha Vishnu, Sri Mahalakshmi of Vaikuntha, did penances for thousands of years to enter the Maha Rasa Lila of Lord Krishna, but was not granted.

 

kasyAnubhavo 'sya na deva vidmahe

tavAGghrireNu sparzAdhikAraH

yadvAJchayA zrIrlalanAcarattapo

vihAya kAmAn suciraM dhrutavratA

 

(Padma Purana - and Bhagavatham 10.16.36,- and C.C.Adilila 5.223)

 

According to Padma Purana, Mahalakshmi had spent thosands of years in penance to attain the status of Gopis in Madhurya rasa but was not granted. The Lord allowed her to stay on His chest. She received only the Madhurya rasa of Queen Rukmini in Dwaraka.

 

Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu lovingly reminded the worshippers of Sri Lakshmi-Narayan that how much Mahalakshmi had longed for the Vraja Madhurya rasa while Gopis of Vrindavan did not care for the Aiswarya rasa of Narayana, as they showed no interest in the Mahavishnu form of Krishna.

 

(C.C.1.17.277-293)<small><font color="white">

 

[This message has been edited by sha (edited 06-04-2002).]

[atma]

Thank you for the answers, what I don't understand is if we feel atraction to a certain rasa while we are doing our sadhana is it because we experimented that particular rasa before? Another question is, why one soul will be in dasya rasa and other in madhurya, who determine that? Where is our free will? Our desires? Or we just want to serve the Lord in any capacity and He give us our service and we happily do it? Is that what we call unconditional love?

[sha]

Originally posted by atma:

What about the sages that saw Lord Ramachandra in the forest and later become gopis in Krsna leela?

Copied message from another board:

 

"Again, when we reflect upon the TWO descensions, Rama and Krishna, we will come to the conclusion that the descension of Lord Krishna is SWEETER. The number of Pastimes performed during this incarnation is also greater.

 

In the begining, the devotee's mind cannot attain stability through mere meditation upon a Form. It has to take the SUPPORT of Divine Lilas in order to ENGROSS the MIND in the spiritual realm.

 

The pastimes of Krishna are so irresistably charming, that the devotee's mind is forcibly attracted to them. Hence the meditation upon the pastimes becomes easy for him.

 

We have pastimes of ALL five BHAVAS (Santa, Dasya, Sakhya, Vatsalya and Madhurya) during the descension of Lord Krishna.

 

The devotee can CONTEMPLATE upon ANY pastime that PLEASES him according to his BHAVA and he can even change them whenever he desires to. In this way, DEVOTIONAL practice is made quite easy.

 

The second point is, although Rama and Krishna are One and the SAME, the most lovable expression of Bliss (Rasa) of Divine pastimes was MANIFESTED during the descension of Lord Krishna.

 

This is WHY the Realized Saints of Lord Rama's descension, RETURNED as Gopis during the advent of Lord Krishna in order to EXPERIENCE the Sweet Nectar of Divine Love.

 

Therefore, from the point of view of expiriencing the HIGHEST and SWEETEST Nectar of Divine Love, and ease in the PRACTICE of Devotion, Meditation upon Lord Krishna is the most suitable, as He is the infinitely beautiful and charming Ocean of Bliss, the Stealer of hearts, and Crown of the Rasik Saints.

 

He, the most Perfect, Absolute Brahman, Sri Krishna, becomes Radha-Krishna in the Field of Divine Pastimes."

 

(An excerpt from 'Prema-Rasa-Siddhant, Chapter.14'- The Philosophy of Divine Love)

 

 

 

Another copied message from the same board :

 

C.C.2.8.82. "There are various means and relationships by which one may attain the favor of Lord Krshna.

All those transcendental relationships will be studied from the

viewpoint of COMPARATIVE IMPORTANCE."

 

83. "IT IS TRUE WHATEVER RELATIONSHIP A PARTICULAR DEVOTEE HAS WITH THE LORD IS THE BEST FOR HIM;

 

STILL, WHEN WE STUDY ALL THE DIFFERENT RASAS,

FROM NEUTRAL POSITION (SANTA RASA), WE CAN UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE HIGHER AND LOWER DEGREES OF LOVE."

 

84. "INCREASING LOVE IS EXPERIENCED IN VARIOUS RASAS, ONE ABOVE THE ANOTHER.

BUT THAT LOVE WHICH HAS THE HIGHEST RASA MANIFESTS ITSELF IN THE FORM OF MADHURYA RASA, CONUGAL LOVE"

 

88. "COMPLETE ATTAINMENT OF THE LOTUS FEET OF LORD KRISHNA IS MADE POSSIBLE BY LOVE OF GODHEAD, SPECIALLY MADHURYA RASA OR CONJUGAL LOVE.

 

LORD KRISHNA INDEED CAPTIVATED BY THIS RASA, THIS STANDARD OF LOVE.

THIS IS ALSO STATED IN SRIMADBHGAVATHAM.

 

 

[suryaz]

Originally posted by atma:

Thank you for the answers, what I don't understand is if we feel atraction to a certain rasa while we are doing our sadhana is it because we experimented that particular rasa before? Another question is, why one soul will be in dasya rasa and other in madhurya, who determine that? Where is our free will? Our desires? Or we just want to serve the Lord in any capacity and He give us our service and we happily do it? Is that what we call unconditional love?

 

Mahaprabhu provides the answer in the 8th verse of his Siksastakam

 

"I know no one but Krsna as my Lord, and He shall remain so even if He handles me roughly by His embrace or makes me broken-hearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, for He is always my worshipful Lord unconditionally."

 

I think the line: "He is completely free to do anything and everything, for He is always my worshipful Lord unconditionally."

is the key.

 

 

[This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 06-05-2002).]

[raga]

Of course we must understand that the nitya-parikaras of the Lord may descend in different forms during His different avataras. We have innumerable examples of Vraja-parikaras in madhurya-rasa, who exhibited the suddha-dasyam of Mahaprabhu in Navadvipa.

 

Additionally, some Vraja-parikaras have two identities. For instance from our lineage (Jahnava Parivara), we have Dhananjaya Pandit, who is one of the dvadasa-gopalas called Vasudhama who descended with Nityananda Prabhu. Additionally he also serves in a manjari-svarupa in Vraja-lila on account of his participation as a sadhaka in Gaura-lila and receiving the unprecedented gift of Mahaprabhu (sva-bhakti sriyam -- manjari bhava). Now, don't ask when he attained it -- Gaura-lila has been going on since beginningless time.

 

In other words, when I say there is no change in rasa, it means there is no rejection of the particular sthayi-bhava which has been attained. There may be evolution and expansion into multiforms under the divine arrangements of the svarupa-shakti, but there is no rejection of that which was perfectly attained.

 

[raga]

Originally posted by atma:

Thank you for the answers, what I don't understand is if we feel atraction to a certain rasa while we are doing our sadhana is it because we experimented that particular rasa before? Another question is, why one soul will be in dasya rasa and other in madhurya, who determine that? Where is our free will? Our desires? Or we just want to serve the Lord in any capacity and He give us our service and we happily do it? Is that what we call unconditional love?

Now, there is some doctrinal division over that within the Gaudiya sampdaraya. Some take it that the svarupa (and rasa) of the jiva is inherent within the heart of the jiva, and others understand that a jiva develops a particular rasa in accordance with his association. This includes a heap of theological controversies including the one about the origin of the jiva, and initiating such a debate would invoke a long and a laborious task. I suggest we don't do it in this thread.

 

As for why one soul is in one rasa and one in another rasa, originally this is certainly the desire of the Lord. The jivas' free will is limited, while the Lords' is unlimited. The jiva, being a part and parcel of the Lord, naturally reflects the Lord's desires when it is in a state free from selfishness.

 

To be practical about it, Rupa Gosvamipada advises us in regards to sadhu sanga:

 

sajAtiyAzaye snigdhe sAdhau saGgaH svato'vare.

 

One should associate with sadhus who are similarly disposed (towards attaining a particular rasa) as oneself, who are affectionate towards oneself, and more advanced than oneself. Recently I put together something on three categories of sthayi-bhava presented in the Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu. If you like, you can read about it here.

 

Just sincerely pray to the Lord within the heart, and he will awaken a certain attraction within your heart and guide you to similarly inclined devotees. In a position where attraction has not awaken, questions on predetermination vs. free will in obtaining a rasa seem to be very important, but in truth, to pursue such questions instead of praying to the Lord and trying to undertand his desire with us is to have more inclination for the path of jnana than for the path of bhakti. Of course a certain degree of understanding is helpful, but really we are here to love and to serve.

 

 

[sha]

Originally posted by suryaz:

Mahaprabhu provides the answer in the 8th verse of his Siksastakam

 

"I know no one but Krsna as my Lord, and He shall remain so even if He handles me roughly by His embrace or makes me broken-hearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, for He is always my worshipful Lord unconditionally."

 

I think the line: "He is completely free to do anything and everything, for He is always my worshipful Lord unconditionally."

is the key.

 

 

[This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 06-05-2002).]

<font color="blue">AzliSya vA pAdaratAM pinaSTu mAm

adarzanAn marmahatAM karotu vA

yathA tathA vA vidadhAtu lampaTo

mat prANa nAthas tu sa eva nAparaH</font>

 

(Sikshashtakam. 8)

 

Yes, this unconditional love can be experienced only in the highest Madhurya Rasa of Gopis (Sri Radha) as Sri Prabhu Himself is expressing this verse in<font color="blue"> Radha Bhava,</font> addressing the Lord as 'lampaTa' meaning, Playboy or Debauchee.

 

No other devotee belonging to any other 'Rasa' like Dasya, Sakhya, or Vatsalya has 'adhikara' - privilege or right to address the Lord with that much intimacy!

 

This verse itself supremly glorifies the Madhurya Rasa of Gopis.

[raga]

Let me give another try in addressing atmaji's questions.

 

1. If we feel atraction to a certain rasa while we are doing our sadhana is it because we experimented that particular rasa before?

 

Strong attraction towards a certain rasa is called "lobha", or "greed". Visvanatha explains in his Raga Vartma Candrika the causes for the appearance of lobha as follows:

<blockquote><font color=blue>There are two causes for the appearance of the aforementioned sacred greed: The mercy of God or the mercy of another anuragi devotee. There are again two kinds of mercy bestowed by a devotee: praktana and adhunika. Praktana means mercy bestowed by a raganuga bhakta in a previous life, and adhunika is mercy bestowed in the present birth. The praktana devotee takes shelter of the lotus feet of a raganuga guru after the sacred greed has arisen in him, and the adhunika will get that sacred greed only after having surrendered to the feet of such a guru. It is said (in the Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu): "The only causes for the appearance of sacred greed are the mercy of Krishna and His devotee. Therefore some call the path of raganuga bhakti also the path of grace."</font></blockquote>

In other words, there are people in whom this greed awakens very suddenly and spontaneously on account of their having been attracted to the same in their previous lives. On the other hand, some persons come in contact with rasika devotees and bhakti scriptures in this life for the first time. If we have not been in touch with devotees who have a strong inclination towards a certain rasa, having not heard from them descriptions saturated with their cherished mood, and nevertheless attraction arises in our heart, then it is likely that we have been in touch with activities related with that rasa before.

 

However, let us recognize a difference between lobha and attraction born out of our mundane conditioning. Back in the days when I used to distribute books on the streets, it is not one or two Harley Davidson guys who liked the picture of Narasimha Deva on the cover of the Bhagavata 7th Canto. And as said by Swami Bhaktivedanta in his preface to the Krishna Book, many people are also attracted to the pastimes of Radha and Krishna because they resemble the activites of boys and girls in this world. There would be numerous examples one could give to illustrate attraction towards a certain feature or pastime of Krishna arisen out of our mundane nature. Of course this is also great, but it need not be a symptom of having undergone raganuga bhakti sadhana in our previous lives.

 

 

2. Why one soul will be in dasya rasa and other in madhurya, who determine that?

 

Essentially the Lord does. The individual souls, being bhedAbheda part and parcel of the Lord, begin to reflect His desires when they come in contact with their constitutional nature of bhakti service.

 

 

3. Where is our free will? Our desires? Or we just want to serve the Lord in any capacity and He give us our service and we happily do it? Is that what we call unconditional love?

 

Unconditional love means to do that which gives happiness to the beloved, and to do it devoid of selfish considerations. Parama purusa sukha matra sva-sukhatvam -- The happiness of the Supreme Enjoyer is your happiness.

[paul108]

What about Jaya and Vijaya? They went from being gatekeepers of Vaikuntha to being Lord Caitanya and Nityananda's devotees. Did Lord Caitanya send them back to the gates when He finished His pastimes on Earth? It seems unlikely, but I haven't heard anything about it.....

[sha]

Originally posted by atma:

Thank you for the answers, what I don't understand is if we feel atraction to a certain rasa while we are doing our sadhana is it because we experimented that particular rasa before? (1)

Another question is, why one soul will be in dasya rasa and other in madhurya, who determine that? (2)

Where is our free will? Our desires? (3)

Or we just want to serve the Lord in any capacity and He give us our service and we happily do it? (4)

Is that what we call unconditional love?(5)

Dear Atmaji,

 

Your genuine questions do need profound answers. I am afraid no simple message would sufficiently cover explaining all your questions, as it would raise more and more queries.

If you have a Rasik Spiritual guide (Sat Guru) or teacher, you can inquire more confidentially from that person. (on one to one basis)

But I'll post some general information collected in this regard from other boards.

 

You can also read C.C.2.8- Mahaprabhu's discussion with Ramananda Raya, His teachings to Roopa and Sanatana in other chapters.

More philosophical truths are also revealed in Adilila.

 

Mahaprabhu had explained this as:

 

1. Sambandha

2. Prameya

3. Prayojana

[raga]

Originally posted by paul108:

What about Jaya and Vijaya? They went from being gatekeepers of Vaikuntha to being Lord Caitanya and Nityananda's devotees. Did Lord Caitanya send them back to the gates when He finished His pastimes on Earth? It seems unlikely, but I haven't heard anything about it.....

It has been explained by the acaryas that one forms of Jaya and Vijaya were left on the gates of Vaikuntha, and other forms went through the cycle Hiranyakasipu-Hiranyaksa -> Ravana-Kumbhakarna -> Sisupala-Dantavakra. They also chose to appear as Jagai-Madhai. Hence this was an expansion of rasa. Unfortunately I don't have the exact commentary at hand. I'll post it in when I get it.

 

[BVI]

ATMA:1. If we feel atraction to a certain rasa while we are doing our sadhana is it because we experimented that particular rasa before?

 

Whether you had previously "experimented" with a rasa is not a relevant issue. There is no way to determine that except by chanting. Through chanting you may come to know of your past lives according to Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Bhajan Rahasya. The important thing is that you have some attraction, and that is a good thing that gives encouragement and hope to continue further. Keep on truckin.

 

 

2. Why one soul will be in dasya rasa and other in madhurya, who determine that?

 

You are what you are. You have always been that. Krishna determined it through the inconceivable lottery system, or His whim. Whatever you want to call it. It made Him happy, so just go with it, water His root, and you will be perfectly happy with whoever you are eternally beyond your wildest imagination. There is a plan for you and your happiness--that is what Krishna meditates on while you meditate on pleasing Him. He can please you must more than you can please Him, but that is what competition is all about. Prove your might and do everything in your capacity to please Him.

 

3. Where is our free will? Our desires? Or we just want to serve the Lord in any capacity and He give us our service and we happily do it? Is that what we call unconditional love?

 

 

Your free will is not defined or exercised in relationship to your eternal identity. You are who you are and you will love it when you get there to realize it. Don't even worry about something being forced on you. You are you, and that is the perfect thing for you and for Krishna's pleasure. He wants you to be yourself, and so will you when you realize it. There is nothing in the creation that could be better for you. You are the ultimate you. When you realize who you are you will be totally stoked and happy beyond expression. You will laugh to yourself and happily say, "That's me eternally. Very cool. I am so happy to have such an intimate and confidential relationship with Radharani who is so kind and merciful to me. She is my best friend. She is looking out for me and I will give my life and everything to Her just to make Her happy. She is the best."

 

Just be your real self. You are great-the real you. Now as far as your false identity, that stinks. But that is only temporary. Soon you will be home in good company serving your most dear ones as if nothing ever happened down here. Maya is completely conspicuous by her absence.

 

Your Servant

[atma]

Thank you prabhus for your answers.

[kailasa]

“.... Those who engage in the service of Lord Nityänanda Prabhu and Lord Advaita Prabhu generally have relationships of parental love, fraternity, servitude and neutrality. When such devotees develop great attachment for Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu, they too become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love.” Adi 7-17.

 

 

"The internal devotees or potencies are all eternal associates in the pastimes of the Lord. Only with them does the Lord advent to propound the saìkértana movement, only with them does the Lord taste the mellow of conjugal love, and only with them does He distribute this love of God to people in general."

 

PURPORT

 

Distinguishing between pure devotees and internal or confidential devotees, Çré Rüpa Gosvämé, in his book Upadeçämåta, traces the following gradual process of development. Out of many thousands of karmés, one is better when he is situated in perfect Vedic knowledge. Out of many such learned scholars and philosophers, one who is actually liberated from material bondage is better, and out of many such persons who are actually liberated, one who is a devotee of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is considered to be the best. Among the many such transcendental lovers of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the gopés are the best, and among the gopés Çrématé Rädhikä is the best. Çrématé Rädhikä is very dear to Lord Kåñëa, and similarly Her ponds, namely, Çyäma-kuëòa and Rädhä-kuëòa, are also very dear to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura comments in his Anubhäñya that among the five tattvas, two are energies (çakti-tattva) and the three others are energetic (çaktimän tattva). Unalloyed and internal devotees are both engaged in the favorable culture of Kåñëa consciousness untinged by philosophical speculation or fruitive activities. They are all understood to be pure devotees, and those among them who simply engage in conjugal love are called mädhurya-bhaktas, or internal devotees. The loving services in parental love, fraternity and servitude are included in conjugal love of God. In conclusion, therefore, every confidential devotee is a pure devotee of the Lord.

Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu enjoys His pastimes with His immediate expansion Nityänanda Prabhu. His pure devotees and His three puruña incarnations, namely, Käraëodakaçäyé Viñëu, Garbhodakaçäyé Viñëu and Kñérodakaçäyé Viñëu, always accompany the Supreme Lord to propound the saìkértana movement.

Ädi 7.20-21

 

Çré Païca-tattva themselves danced again and again and thus made it easier to drink nectarean love of Godhead. They danced, cried, laughed and chanted like madmen, and in this way they distributed love of Godhead.

 

Although the members of the Païca-tattva plundered the storehouse of love of Godhead and ate and distributed its contents, there was no scarcity, for this wonderful storehouse is so complete that as the love is distributed, the supply increases hundreds of times.