daiva-varnasrama

[kailasa]

Lord Caitanya through Ramananda Ray shortly has described process of fidelity. In the other case on a question the Lord Caitanya that there is a perfection of fidelity, Ramananda Ray would answer at one. Nevertheless for the real boon everything, Lord began with “A person who is sincere in his occupational duty will gradually develop a sense of God consciousness.”

 

Srila Prabhupada -

 

"This may be astonishing to persons who are not very interested in establishing daiva-varëäçrama, the transcendental system of four social orders and four spiritual orders. Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura, however, wanted to reestablish daiva-varëäçrama. In daiva-varëäçrama there cannot be acknowledgement of social status according to birthright because in Bhagavad-gétä it is said that the determining considerations are guëa and karma, one’s qualities and work. It is this daiva-varëäçrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Krisna consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Krisna conscious society."

 

Thus varnasrama this continuation of perfection of a society of Consciousness Êrisna, about what as speaks SBST.

[Rati]

I just have one question for you: If Bhaktisiddhanta was right about the need for varnashram, then why did not the six Goswamis express that? It appears that the sankirtan movement was founded on a principle of breaking out of that mold, unless I am somehow missing something.

 

Besides, to think that such a system is ever going to be acceptible in the West is quite a stretch. If you overlay it on the existing capitalistic representative form of government, then you are going to end up with something quite different - but then it might actually be tenable. Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

[bhaktashab]

For example, were Vaisnavas to produce more Krishna conscious multimedia in the forms of television and film would that be part of daiva-varnasrama culture or an overlay on our existing culture? Maybe I'm missing the point here but I know that Srila Prabhupada said utility is the principle - and so this technological age that we are heading into will have many interesting possibilities for preaching Krishna consciousness. To my knowledge daiva-varnasrama is an agrarian culture - but perhaps that is also beside the point... I don't really know. So what are the essentials of daiva-varnasrama? What should be implemented and practiced? What is allowed and not allowed?

 

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shab.

[Jagat]

Changing times.

[Rati]

I think we need to start with an overhaul of the whole political machine (at least here in the USA) first, then maybe we can think about how to introduce such a lofty utopian system. There has been this move to control campaign contributions, ostensibly to curb the tide of corruption, however, the problems run much deeper than that. There is this whole miasma of special interest groups and political action committees controlling the elected representatives via the purse strings. I do not advocate a Marxist overthrow of the leaders, since we saw how badly that went in Czarist Russia, rather a cleaning of house working within the system. Not such an easy task, by a long shot, but worth striving for.

 

I use to have good health insurance when working for the big fat cat corporations, but now that I own a small business I have had nothing but trouble getting coverage on an individual policy and currently am stuck on a horrible HMO and its insidious bureacracy. Clinton said he was going to address the whole health care mess, but those good intentions quickly fell by the wayside in his first term in office.

 

Now many state governments are severely in the red, which only is portentous for the already crumbling infrastructure. Wars have generally been good for the economy in the past, but this current campaign against Al Qaeda (don't get me wrong - I am fully behind Bush's efforts on the military front - just skeptial of his stance on the environment) has yet to show any positive effects along those lines.

 

What else can we do for now but focus on our own bhajan and pray that we don't get nuked in the near future?

 

[theist]

One thing about the USA is it is possible to set up smaller communities within the larger social structure.

 

If you have a group of people that want to live a communal life stlye you can do that.Within that group some will rise up as leaders and managers some workers and some will bring in more money.And somebody else will become recognized as wiser in ways spiritual.

 

As I see it it is just a question of working according to one's natural proclivities and then offering the fruits to Krsna, within a group setting.

 

It should be recognized however that if we can't do that on a small scale trying to force a huge govt. to do it is dreaming.

 

In this age it is often hard to live simply.A few will catch on but they are the exceptions I'm afraid.

[kailasa]

Am reply later, about rasa too. Exuse.

[krishnas]

Originally posted by Rati:

I just have one question for you: If Bhaktisiddhanta was right about the need for varnashram, then why did not the six Goswamis express that? It appears that the sankirtan movement was founded on a principle of breaking out of that mold, unless I am somehow missing something.

 

The sankiirtana movement is founded on the principle of spreading the glories of the Holy Name to every town and village, as Shrii Chaitanya wanted. The adoption of varnaashrama dharma was just a means to an end for propagating it within India.

 

 

 

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www.achintya.org

[Rati]

Yes, however I think we were discussing the idea of institution varnrashram in a purer form worldwide - or did I miss something?

 

It is kind of walking a fine line, IMHO, between being aloof from the material world and focussing on spiritual advancement and getting actively involved in any kind of politics, without losing one's suddha-sattva platform. Look at the example of those siddha mahatmas that would not even handle money or take prasad that was financed by materially motivated persons (caste Hindus even).

 

Then again, we must be pragmatic. Something of the magnitude of a varnashram system is going to require massive planning and maharaja scale resources, if it is ever to be ported from the small agrarian community to the world at large. It is also not likely to be done in one step, but rather phased in gradually - after all people grouped in organizational hierarchies have this inherent inertia and resist any kind of change to the status quo.

 

Just some thoughts. I really have not pondered the details as of yet - rather just reflected upon the subject abstractly.

 

 

[kailasa]

The fifth Sandarbha is called Bhakti-sandarbha, and in this book there is a discussion of how devotional service can be directly executed, and how such service can be adjusted, either directly or indirectly. There is a discussion of the knowledge of all kinds of scripture,

 

the establishment of the Vedic institution of varnasrama,

 

bhakti as superior to fruitive activity, and so forth. It is also stated that without devotional service even a brähmaëa is condemned. There are discussions of the process of karma-tyäga (the giving of the results of karma to the Supreme Personality of Godhead), and the practices of mystic yoga and philosophical speculation, which are deprecated as simply hard labor. Worship of the demigods is discouraged, and worship of a Vaiñëava is considered exalted. No respect is given to the nondevotees. There are discussions of how one can be liberated even in this life (jévan-mukta), Lord Çiva as a devotee, and how a bhakta and his devotional service are eternally existing. It is stated that through bhakti one can attain all success because for bhakti is transcendental to the material qualities. There is a discussion of how the self is manifest through bhakti. There is also a discussion of the self’s bliss, as well as how bhakti, even imperfectly executed, enables one to attain the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Unmotivated devotional service is highly praised, and an explanation is given of how each devotee can achieve the platform of unmotivated service by association with other devotees. There is a discussion of the differences between the mahä-bhägavata and the ordinary devotee, the symptoms of philosophical speculation, the symptoms of self-worship, or ahaìgrahopäsanä, the symptoms of devotional service, the symptoms of imaginary perfection, the acceptance of regulative principles, service to the spiritual master, the mahä-bhägavata (liberated devotee) and service to him, service to Vaiñëavas in general, the principles of hearing, chanting, remembering and serving the lotus feet of the Lord, offenses in worship, offensive effects, prayers, engaging oneself as an eternal servant of the Lord, making friendships with the Lord and surrendering everything for His pleasure. There is also a discussion of rägänugä-bhakti (spontaneous love of Godhead), of the specific purpose of becoming a devotee of Lord Kåñëa, and a comparative study of other perfectional stages.

[Rati]

I was not actually commenting on the merits of the daiva-varnashram concept, which should be self-evident. I was reflecting on the practical application of the principles according to current time and circumstances here in the West. Perhaps you were not responding to my earlier post, but to someone else's comments. It is really impossible for me to tell, without reading back through the whole thread, which I do not have time for at the moment.

 

[kailasa]

Now am computers club, home read and answer. Excuse. Varnasram is CONSTANT sistem, not nowbody out varnasrama, only transcendent level. Varnasrama needs for pracar, God have all in spiritual world, not only small sect. If me low level me higt tinking about ourself.

[Sharma-SN]

Originally posted by kailasa:

. It is this daiva-varëäçrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Krisna consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Krisna conscious society."

 

Thus varnasrama this continuation of perfection of a society of Consciousness Êrisna, about what as speaks SBST.

I feel real Dharma functions all by itself without the need for any external agency to establish it or force it. For example the dharma of gurutvaakarshana (Gravity)does not need any body to establish it. The Bhagavatgeeta concept of varnashrama "Guna Karma vibhagena..." has been functioning right from the beginning and continues to be so in the future also. Today we have business class, intellectual class, worker class, clerical class etc., etc., and no body can stop it or take the trouble of establising it. In may opinion anything that is to be established is not repeat not Dharma. Such forced or established dharmas will cease to exist unless they are real Dharmas.

 

 

 

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sharmasn

[kailasa]

**I was not actually commenting on the merits of the daiva-varnashram concept, which should be self-evident.

 

I agree with you.

 

**Perhaps you were not responding to my earlier post, but to someone else's comments.

 

Yes. It is about clauses concerning parakiya rasa.

 

Varnasrama will unit all religion. Though on the other hand varnasrama it does not mean village life if now to put the God in the centre, it too will be varnasrama. The simply modern technology long will not live, as she almost all wrong.

[kailasa]

**any external agency to establish it or force it.

 

No problem is many ways, natural too.

 

**that is to be established is not repeat not Dharma.

 

Manu Samhita begins - "world drive law". Now it is presents. People may make with conciosness.