The Ashram of Earning Money

[bhaktashab]

Haribol,

Recently I heard a lecture by H.H.Bhakti Vidya Purna Maharaja and he said that a Grihastha should only dedicate eight hours of his day collecting funds to maintain his family. He mentioned that people that work longer shifts are simply borrowing from their future earnings, money that they would have received regardless of their extra effort. He said that we are alloted a certain amount of wealth due to our karma and that we only get that much regardless of how much we over-endeavour. What I forgot to ask was does that mean we should only work eight hours a day seven days a week? Six days a week? Or five days a week? Any ideas?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

A cow tied to a tree is limited in movement by the length of the rope. Yet he can further reduce his movement by entangling the rope around the tree.

 

[theist]

What about python-yoga?

[Rati]

What ever happened to the eight hour work day and the two day weekend standard in corporate America? I know that the Europeans only worked thirty hour weeks and had several weeks of paid vacation instead of the standard 2 and 3 after five years of service, etc. I wonder if they still have that relaxed pace. This is just another device of corporate greed - to get employees to put in the longer hours at reduced pay and at the expense of their personal lives. It is starting to come back to haunt some of them already, with lawsuits pouring into the courts over unpaid overtime. I say it serves them right for exploiting the workers and padding their pockets with millions in the process.

 

Capitalism has its benefits, no doubt, but it also has its dark side.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-07-2002).]

[Rati]

There is a book I have heard of entitled "Free Agent Nation". I have not read it yet, but it could be good. If you can freelance and work from home, you are much better off and can set your own hours and time off without dealing with some top heavy bureacracy.

 

[Krsnacandra dasa]

I wonder if we get that same amount of alloted wealth if we under-endeavor ...

 

I'll go back to my corner now.

[stonehearted]

Originally posted by bhaktashab:

Haribol,

Recently I heard a lecture by H.H.Bhakti Vidya Purna Maharaja and he said that a Grihastha should only dedicate eight hours of his day collecting funds to maintain his family. He mentioned that people that work longer shifts are simply borrowing from their future earnings, money that they would have received regardless of their extra effort. He said that we are alloted a certain amount of wealth due to our karma and that we only get that much regardless of how much we over-endeavour. What I forgot to ask was does that mean we should only work eight hours a day seven days a week? Six days a week? Or five days a week? Any ideas?

 

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but this sounds to me as though it's the specultation of someone who, as far as I know, has never had to work for a living and support a family. Part of the karma is the kinds and amount of work we must do to earn that "allotted" amount. With all due respect, Maharaja's knowledge the conditions of life in developed countries seems severely limited.

 

It would be great to be able to work only 40 hours a week and live nicely; 20 hours would be even better. Throughout history, however, many folks had to work many hours a day, every day, just to get by. This is especially true since the advent of capitalism.

 

If you're not willing to sacrifice for others, don't get married and have a family. Also, if you're not willing to sacrifice for others, don't take sannyasa.

[bhaktashab]

Originally posted by stonehearted:

With all due respect, Maharaja's knowledge the conditions of life in developed countries seems severely limited.

 

Do you know Maharaja? Or do you come to that conclusion simply from my statement about a class he gave?

 

 

------------------

shab.

[Guest guest]

Have faith in Lord and throw your responsibilities on His shoulder. He likes to be responsible. Being responsible is dumb, I say - for us -

 

The key thing is to realize prakRti is at work. Not us. prakRti is at work in every part of the universe including the developed countries. I am heading a multi-million dollar project in the US and am completely irresponsible. I visit this forum while at work and sometimes just day-dream. I shaved up my head and stayed in the temple in the US for a few months. Then left the temple and got married. I was working for pea-nuts in India. But I was glad I was making Mahabharath movie. But it flopped. Suddently I realized that I was making peauts and some one named Krishnan (not the God) called me and landed me in a better job. On the job, I learnt astrology and did work well for something like 6 hours. My brain was sharp due to all the astrological calculations. I used to shout at my team for staying beyond six. At work, I also preached to my boss who humbly listened as I told him he is wasting his life. Got some shares from the company which I believe compensated for the "loss" of money due to leaving the US. I attribute the insane decisions in my life to the Lord and He is responsible for compensating them - He does. Then due to the influence of Rahu dasa I was thrown back to the US. When I came I was in a bad shape because it was too political. I was concerned because of family and other responsibilities. More so because I was getting distracted and purity of heart is requied to avoide the problems in the world. But putting some faith in the verse yatra yogeswara... I went on to head a multimillion dollar project. I cant and dont wine and dine. But astrologically, my mother checked it out, I will have bad time for next three months. I hate the verse matra sparsas tu ... but what to do ? Life brings its own share of trouble. My parents told me to come home and do kirtan as a family. Hope I will depend on the Lord and He will wage the war. If He didnot I will resort to billi sUnyam - (black magic)

 

 

[stonehearted]

Originally posted by bhaktashab:

Do you know Maharaja? Or do you come to that conclusion simply from my statement about a class he gave?

 

In fact, I met Maharaja in 1982, when he was a brahmachari. We attended the annual gurukula headmasters' conference, which was held that year in Vrindavan during Kartika. He seemed a serious devotee who was intent on assimilating Bengali culture and values. I have known several men trained by him as well.

 

However, based on the quotation you posted, I said his knowledge of our life here seems (appears to be) limited. I hope you don't find that offensive; if you read it carefully, you'd see I was pointing out how that quotation appeared, not making an assertion about Maharaja's character.

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Sometimes a small quotation from a person can misrepresent their true perspectives on an issue. I don't know if it is the case here or not. Also the audience whom he was talking to would be a relevant point. If he was talking to some students in his gurukula in West Bengal, or if he was talking with some grihastha devotees in Los Angeles who work in outside jobs, it would be two different things altogether.

 

[Rati]

Don't fret Ram. I am sure we can pull together that business proposal we have been discussing. It might be a little rough in the beginning, but the going should get easier in the near future as the U.S. economy springs back (as it always does).

 

Radharani provides, as long as She sees that we are part of Her group.

 

 

[Gauracandra]

I think it would be interesting for devotees who have some business background to try to put together a generalized financial lifeplan for “simple living”. I’m thinking in terms of how much to save, where to invest it, what one can expect, etc…. at various stages of a devotee’s life. There are certainly models out there already which could be tailored towards a devotee’s goals in life. It’s something to consider. My own thinking is that a devotee plan would need to require a higher than average savings rate. This is just because ideally (not that it can always happen) I think devotees would want to be able to retire earlier to spend the last years focused on their spiritual pursuits. One important aspect to consider would be how the transition between India and America could accommodate an earlier retirement schedule. I know devotees who plan to or are retiring in India. This throws an entirely different dynamic into the equation. Someone could purchase some property in Mayapur, and probably live fairly comfortably off of just Social Security income. That is if they are acclimated to India. It most likely won’t be for everybody though.

[Rati]

Retiring to India could work, provided you have the finances to travel to Europe or America whenever you need medical or dental attention. The thought of putting one's health in the hands of whatever medieval facitilies are over there is quite frightening.

 

[atma]

Originally posted by Rati:

Retiring to India could work, provided you have the finances to travel to Europe or America whenever you need medical or dental attention. The thought of putting one's health in the hands of whatever medieval facitilies are over there is quite frightening.

I lived in India for 15 years and the dentists and doctors were excellent. I had my 2 kids in Calcutta by ceaserian (sp?)and 2 assistants took care of me and the babies day and night. No problem at all. I paid a fraction of what it would cost here.

In the big cities you find excellent facilities but in the rural side is scary. Once I had to take one of the gurukula boys to the Mayapur "hospital" for an emergency and it was so dirty and freaky that we run away inmediately after the poor kid was stiched on the forehead without anesthesia. Other tales of delivering babies in one of the hospitals in Vrindavan are too gross to tell here.

With a few hundred $$ a month you can live like a king in India

 

 

 

[Tarun]

I'd have to agree with Mhrj, but more in the sukha-duHkha sense.

Actual laxmi earned = increased wealth is difficult to calculate.

Inflation, borrowing, lending, credit cards, mortgages, exchange rates, wholesale, retail, goodwill... so many factors & variables.

Sometimes it pays to be poor. Sometimes only the poor pay.

That wife u r supporting. Is she your friend or enemy?

R your kids assets or liabilities? Don't we all lie a bit?

Don't lie down with the wrong customer. U may become accustomed.

It may cost u.

devarSi bhUtApta nRNaM pitRNAM:

how much we owe we don't even know, so which formula to apply?

According to ZrIla ZrIdhardev:

if one layer of ego consumes many births, who's really rich?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Personally I find the dentistry to be good in India, but the government medical facilities to be terrible.

 

Most Indians dont go to the dentist. So their bad teeth are more or less their own fault.

 

Certainly the dentistry doesn't compare to the west, but it is pretty decent and inexpensive.

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 06-12-2002).]

[Rati]

atma: So you think that the dentistry over there is excellent? I find that hard to believe. My sister is a dental hygienist that has quite a few Indian patients. Just about all of them have advanced gum disease, even those that are only in their early twenties. That is not true for the Indian Americans that have been seeing American dentists their whole lives.

 

I have discussed the issue of the practice of dentistry outside America with my own dentist (who is quite good at what he does) and apparently the only other country that has standards that even come close is Switzerland. This was surprising to hear, as I thought at least Canada would be about the same.

 

 

[Dharma]

Southern Pastor Works to Deliver His Flock From Credit-Card Debt

The Wall Street Journal | Wednesday, June 12, 2002 | ELLEN GRAHAM

 

NORFOLK, Va. -- Carl and Janice Beaver went to church one night recently owing $10,500 on a slew of credit cards. When they walked out two hours later, they were debt-free.

 

Now all they owe is gratitude to their brethren at Mount Carmel Baptist Church. About once a month the church holds a "debt liquidation revival," a foot-stomping, hand-clapping outpouring of music and financial generosity aimed at lifting members out of credit-card debt. How generous? The Beavers are the 56th family to have been "delivered" from debt since the revivals began about a year ago.

 

In a single night in May, church members not only raised the Beavers' $10,500, but an additional $5,400 to liquidate the debt of another couple, and there was $500 left over for next time. To date, the congregation has wiped out a total of $318,000 of debt.

 

Their feat is all the more striking because Mount Carmel isn't some suburban megachurch catering to the country-club set. It is in a vaguely seedy section of downtown Norfolk, and volunteer security guards watch parked cars during services. The church's predominantly African-American members are mostly under 50 and are drawn from across the economic spectrum. Many are from military families posted at the huge naval base here, home port of the Atlantic Fleet.

 

"The credit-card companies don't like me too well," says Mount Carmel's pastor, 48-year-old Bishop C. Vernie Russell Jr., an imposing figure with a graying, Santa Claus beard who accounts for all repaid debts in a pocket-sized, green notebook. But, he insists, "you can't serve your Master and MasterCard at the same time."

 

To an overextended generation accustomed to instant plastic gratification, Bishop Russell preaches the evils of 20% interest rates and the virtues of saving money and paying cash. At his urging, 1,000 church members have cut up their credit cards, and the shards are kept in a glass urn on the pulpit. People whose debt has been liquidated are asked to donate at least $300 at subsequent revival meetings to help other families.

 

This self-help refinancing project has had a salubrious effect on church coffers as well. As credit-card balances decline, disposable incomes -- and church donations -- have risen.

 

The amount tithed, for example, is up 25% in the past year, according to Bishop Russell. In addition to money collected at debt revivals, Mount Carmel takes in more than $2 million annually to fund operations and community-outreach missions, such as feeding and clothing the homeless. The goal is to have the 3,000-member congregation debt-free, except for mortgages and car loans. "When you do something collectively, it's better," Bishop Russell says.

 

Others' Good Fortune

 

Quivering excitement pulsed through the congregation as members streamed into Mount Carmel's sanctuary on a recent Friday night. The floorboards throbbed with the beat of a brass, drum and keyboard combo. Plump grandmothers in flowered dresses waved fans and handkerchiefs. Dressed-for-success working couples cuddled infants snoozing peacefully through the din. A phalanx of somber-suited deacons huddled before the pulpit.

 

Janice Beaver arrived figuring she'd "have a good time getting someone out of debt." For a year the 40-year-old retired Navy cook has regularly attended debt revivals, reveling in others' good fortune. But, she conceded, "You definitely hope the Lord will bless you too.''

 

Still, she had no reason to believe that she and her 43-year-old husband, Carl, also recently retired from the Navy, would be blessed that night. The bishop never chooses beneficiaries before arriving at church and says he has no special criteria for picking candidates. "The Lord gives me insight as to who should be called," he explains.

 

When the Beavers married two years ago, their credit-card debt totaled $40,000. Since then they have cut up their credit cards, increased their monthly payments and applied a bequest from Mrs. Beaver's grandfather to the balance. In the past year, they've paid off nearly $30,000 while starting second careers. They've also managed to give $200 and sometimes even $300 at each monthly revival meeting.

 

Perched in a pew up front, Mrs. Beaver smiled radiantly as she jabbed the air overhead and clapped in sync with the choir. "The devil is defeated, he is defeated," the congregation chanted. A troupe of young dancers in black T-shirts fanned out into the aisles, and soon everyone was on their feet, elbows akimbo, stomping and strutting. "Stomp, stomp, stomp on the devil!" they shouted.

 

Whoops of delight greeted the announcement that Earl and Lanitha Hudson had been chosen to get out of debt. Elder Ronda Russell, the Bishop's wife, summoned debt-free parishioners to come forward with offerings. "Thank you, Lord, for allowing us to have something to give," she said. "Those who can plant a seed of $1,000 get in line." Behind them came those offering $500, then $300, then $100, on down to those who gave small amounts. People wrote checks as they waited in line. Small children clutched dollar bills. The deacons collected and counted the contributions while the pastor snipped credit cards with large shears.

 

Finally, the good news resounded: "The Hudsons are out of debt!" the pastor shouted. A tide of joyful noise swept the sanctuary.

 

"We have $7,000 left," Bishop Russell announced. "It's time for somebody else -- Brother and Sister Beaver!" Janice Beaver gasped and sank down in her seat, as friends rushed to embrace her. "We need $3,500 more," Bishop Russell said, as people dropped checks and cash into a basket. "Here's $500. Here's another $100, $200," he shouted. The music swelled and people leapt to their feet. "We need $600 more. $182 more. $141. ... $36. ... $31." And then: "The Beavers are out of debt!" The choir and congregation sang out, "We got a victory!"

 

The next day Mrs. Beaver still felt like she was "floating on clouds," she says. "You would never think people would give so much to someone who isn't a relative. Some I don't even know. But they were there to help me like I was there to help them."

 

During Bishop Russell's 19 years at its helm, Mount Carmel has grown from 35 to 3,000 members. Three Sunday-morning services are needed to accommodate the crush. It was overcrowding that indirectly inspired him to begin the revivals.

 

'People Were Hurting'

 

How could he ask his congregation to support a new-building fund, he wondered, when so many struggled to pay their own bills? He remembered his own worries as a young father of three, juggling a mortgage, car payments and furniture bills. "A lot of people were hurting, but they hadn't complained and nobody was aware," he says. Some were in bankruptcy, others were in danger of losing their houses.

 

Turning to the Scriptures, he read in Acts about the early Christians who shared what they had with each other. The notion of following their example "was something the Lord placed on my heart," he says. He presented the idea of debt liquidation at worship the following Sunday. "The first revival was the hardest," he says, because there were no previous beneficiaries pledged to help the others. Still, that day $5,600 was raised. The biggest debt the church has tackled so far was $21,000, raised over three successive days.

 

Church members whose debts are erased bring their bills to Bishop Russell after the meeting. He goes over the figures, initials the statements and gives them to a church trustee who writes checks to the creditors.

 

Those newly freed from debt must attend a seminar on staying solvent. Then the pastor meets with them periodically to see where they stand. So far, he says, there have been no backsliders. "Once you get that weight off your shoulders, you never want to go back," says Mr. Beaver.

 

Still, money being the temptation it is, isn't it possible some people have joined the church simply to get their bills paid? Bishop Russell doubts it -- for one thing, the church hasn't had a sudden influx of new members since the revivals began. And every beneficiary has been a member for over a year.

 

He concedes that some members probably are growing impatient waiting their turn. But he points out that if a family is $8,000 in debt at 19% interest and is paying off only the minimum every month, it will take 55 years to retire that debt. "If it takes the church two years to get around to them, they are still 53 years ahead of the game," he says.

 

If current trends continue, everyone at Mount Carmel should be out of debt in another year's time, Bishop Russell estimates. He has told his flock he will be the last to be called for debt liquidation because, he jokes, "You guys will have so much more money then."

 

In fact, he says, he pays off the full balance on his single American Express card each month."""

*********************************************

Now that's Karma Yoga!

 

 

[This message has been edited by Dharma (edited 06-15-2002).]

[Guest guest]

Agree with Gauracandra that it is very important to build a simple living plan for devotees. Working for some one, you will always get a fraction of what is due. Secondly, the idea of saving money is no more good in this economy. In the last 20 years rupee has gone down by 10% every year against the dollar. This means that even @ 8% interest after tax, the actual value of money is less than what you invested in banks. But you think that you actually got good interest. In the US, the dollar value does not go down because the US is a very powerful economy today. So at about 5% interest rate, you actually gain a little. Inflation and interest rates are balanced in the US. So if you save up enough dollars, then it may be possible to have your money as long as the US economy remains the best. I am thinking that it will be the case for next 10 r 20 years. The problem is that the needs of life are increased artificially in the western countries. Also if you dont save up, you have to work through all your life. Damned if you save damned if you dont. One option is to make a lot of money through business and try to save enough to beat the inflation and interest rate falls.

 

The best solution is to come up with self sustained village based economy. Aurobindo Ashram has tried that. And they have come up with Auroville near Pondicherry in India. But it is luxurious due to the international audience it is catering to. The main problem is setting up a self sustained village based economy is that it needs true simple thinking. Simple thinking precedes simple living. It depends on whether I draw my sense of security from the Lord or from my education and earnings. Whether I can give up the opportunity to "enjoy" the comforts of city life like great roads, hospitals etc. Will our children be comfortable without the opportunity to take the world (which is in reality nothing more than slogging for some corporate house). In these times of war and strife, will there be enough security in such villages. Truly safe, self sufficient villages can be created in the us, india or any where in the world. But it needs lifelong commitment between the people involved. This is another major problem.

 

I personally dont see solution to these problems. I dont know what other devotees think of here. I think Caitanya's recommendation being situated inone's position makes sense in modern times. But the joy of devotional mellows will be disturbed by the rigamarole of modern life for any ordinary person.

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 06-15-2002).]

[Tarun]

Don't jump in deep water unless & until u can at least float.

[radharani]

I thought if I became interested in spiritual life and became a devotee I wouldnt have to worry about money! HA! HA!HAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest guest]

 

udyamena hi shidhyanti kAryANi na manorathih

na hi suptasya simhasta prqvishyant mukhe mrugAh

 

jai sri prabhupada!

 

 

[srinivas]

Very true spiritual life means not worrying about money.Not worryig about money means to be atleast self sufficient.

 

my father has been very practical.As a indian father it becomes the responsibility of parents to provide education for all children.And bear the marraige expenses if he had a daughter.

 

So i asked him once how much money is needed to be self sufficient.He said plan ahead for retirement , keep you needs to minimum.The only responsibility is giving good education to children.

 

This will solve all our material problems for life.

 

He is 65 yrs old and self sufficient.He never did business and he worked 8 hrs a day in a private firm .He invested his saving in fixed deposit.Took a housing loan for 20 yrs repayment and at retirement he sold the old house amd he was able to buy a new house a smaller one for him and my mom with his retirement benefits in a town.We lived in the city before.

 

The secret of good financial independence is defintly:

 

1.Keeping our needs to minimum and saving money

2.Educating the children so they can be independent too.

3.Having ones own house at retirement

4.Have a health insurance

5.Move from city to town

6.If lucky the children will always be there to help them in financial and emotional support.

7.my parents spendig their retirement visiting holy places in india every 6 months.

8.Chant and be happy (most important)

[krsna]

Chant and be happy (most important)

 

If we chant money will come but this is nama -aparadha.

 

If we chant purely Krsna will take away all our money and then give Himself to you.

 

Know money, no Krsna. No money, know Krsna.