An Apparent Contradiction

[leyh]

Recently,in the course of my reading of Bhagavad-gita As It Is, I detected an apparent contradiction in the subject of women and intelligence.In his purport to Bhagavad-gita 1.40 ("When irreligion is prominent in the family, O Krsna, the women of the family become corrupt, and from the degradation of womanhood, O descendant of Vrsni, comes unwanted progeny."),His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada wrote:

 

"According to Canakya Pandita, women are generally not very intelligent and therefore not trustworthy."

 

But later on,in his purport to Bhagavad-gita 10.34 ("I am all-devouring death, and I am the generator of all things yet to be. Among women I am fame, fortune, speech, memory, intelligence, faithfulness and patience."),Srila Prabhupada writes:

 

"The six opulences listed are considered to be feminine. If a woman possesses all of them or some of them she becomes glorious."

 

So if intelligence,which is one of the six opulences listed in Bhagavad-gita10.34 as feminine,why should women be considered "generally not very intelligent"? There seems to be a contradiction here.Any suggestions as to how it can be resolved?

 

(Subesequently re-edited for various typing mistakes)

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-15-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-17-2002).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

The divine personalities behind these qualities are female.

 

[Guest guest]

Does any one know the personalities representing

 

fortune - lakshmi ?

speech - ???

memory - ???

intelligence - ???

faithfulness - ???

patience - ???

[shvu]

 

Saraswati is the Goddess of Speech. In all probability, she is Goddess for Memory and Intelligence too.

 

Cheers

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by shvu:

Saraswati is the Goddess of Speech. In all probability, she is Goddess for Memory and Intelligence too.

 

Cheers

I would guess Bhumi is the Goddess of patience.

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 06-15-2002).]

[Guest guest]

 

Krsna is describing how the qualities found in women, fortune, speech etc., are all manifestations of God's qualities.

 

These qualities are manifest by the desire of God,therefore Krsna says "I am these things,they are coming from me,they are divine qualities, manifesting in women".

 

 

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by leyh:

"According to Canakya Pandita, women are generally not very intelligent and therefore not trustworthy."

 

 

There was a time during the mid-70's in Iskcon when the men (generally) were quoting that Canakya Pandit saying until a woman was so disturbed by it she asked Srila Prabhupad about it and he said that Canakya wasn't a devotee. That sort of shut the guys up..for a while.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by shiva:

Krsna is describing how the qualities found in women, fortune, speech etc., are all manifestations of God's qualities.

 

These qualities are manifest by the desire of God,therefore Krsna says "I am these things,they are coming from me,they are divine qualities, manifesting in women".

 

 

That is a new realization. All along I thought BG was lacking in humor. Today, that is gone. Intelligent Women. That must be a joke -

 

 

[leyh]

Originally posted by ram:

That is a new realization. All along I thought BG was lacking in humor. Today, that is gone. Intelligent Women. That must be a joke -

 

 

Bhagavad-gita was spoken on a battlefield before a great world war and Arjuna was facing a serious moral dilemma.I don't think Krsna would joke under such circumstances.It was a crisis situation.Besides,what's so funny about intelligent women? They do exist,you know.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-16-2002).]

[JRdd]

and finally (leyh):

 

[leyh]

Originally posted by JRdd:

and finally (leyh):

Hi JRdd:

 

Its nice to hear from you again!

 

 

[Krsnacandra dasa]

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

There was a time during the mid-70's in Iskcon when the men (generally) were quoting that Canakya Pandit saying until a woman was so disturbed by it she asked Srila Prabhupad about it and he said that Canakya wasn't a devotee. That sort of shut the guys up..for a while.

 

 

Fascinating. Do you know of the date and place, where and when Srila Prabhupad uttered this quotation? Not that I believe your words to be untrue, I just want to be 108% sure. I never particularly cared for the quotations of Chankaya Pandit, but then again, maybe that was because I never cared for some of those who chose to cite his quotations. Instead, I'd rather rely on our actual Gaudiya Guru Parampara for reliable information.

 

Now all we have to do is reconcile our understanding of the Manu Samhita ... Heraculean task right there for many people.

 

[This message has been edited by Krsnacandra dasa (edited 06-16-2002).]

[theist]

"The six opulences listed are considered to be feminine. If a woman possesses all

of them or some of them she becomes glorious."

 

Glorious due to its being such a rare attainment?

 

Just asking.Not trying to stir anything up

[gHari]

Vaisnava women I have met have been glorious.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by leyh:

Bhagavad-gita was spoken on a battlefield before a great world war and Arjuna was facing a serious moral dilemma.I don't think Krsna would joke under such circumstances.It was a crisis situation.Besides,what's so funny about intelligent women? They do exist,you know.

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-16-2002).]

Krishna can joke or laugh under all circumstances. He was smiling in the midst of two armies - prahAsann iva bhAratha - which is not so common. I still have a strong feeling that this must have been a joke. Intelligent woman. The only intelligent woman I know in the 14 worlds is Goddess Saraswati. But you know my knowledge is limited. You may be right.

[raga]

I have met a lot of men who are unable to recognize intelligent women on account of their own poor fund of intelligence.

 

Food for thought.

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by Krsnacandra dasa:

Fascinating. Do you know of the date and place, where and when Srila Prabhupad uttered this quotation? Not that I believe your words to be untrue, I just want to be 108% sure. I never particularly cared for the quotations of Chankaya Pandit, but then again, maybe that was because I never cared for some of those who chose to cite his quotations. Instead, I'd rather rely on our actual Gaudiya Guru Parampara for reliable information.

 

Now all we have to do is reconcile our understanding of the Manu Samhita ... Heraculean task right there for many people.

 

[This message has been edited by Krsnacandra dasa (edited 06-16-2002).]

I never had access Srila Prabhupad's corresponence to various disciples, and it just may have been during a personal darshan in India at the time. I do remember that it was at the height of the 'women are maya' fever than was dominating most classes and it must have had some validity because it was begudging accepted when the famous dismissal of Canyaka as a 'bonefide source' was issued. Maybe Jaya Radhe had some recollection of it, whether it was in a letter or 'latest news' after a Mayapur festival. The date was approximately 1978.

 

 

 

[theist]

Men display more material intelligence.That doesn't mean that material inelligence can't be sorely misdirected.An example could be the space program.It was largely put together by men, based on scientific discoveries that came via men.Intelligence is needed for sure to put that and similar efforts together.But it is an unintelligent waste of time according to spiritual intelligence.

 

Spiritual intelligence would direct us away from identifying with either gender and their inherent characteristics.

[JRdd]

Yes, I remember exactly the same thing, and I also put the date around the mid-seventies, when this was circulated around all the temples. I reemmber that Srila Prabhupada said he was a politician (and we know he was aide to a king, if I am not mistaken on this point). I wonder if anyone can come up with source material? In the early days (maybe not so much as in the mid-seventies, but earlier than that) I remember that the movement was small enough that we had an almost instant grapevine, all the time. In those days, most devotees even knew of most of the other devotees in the movement, by name, and what they were known for, or some pastime about them, even if they had never met. For example, I was surprised to discover that little me was known for my cooking among some temples I'd never been to.

 

My point is, a lot of what Srila Prabhupada said may not be recorded, or provable now, but I doubt whether many men, in the positions to share what Srila Prabhupada told them, would be so inclined to make this up, since it was so popular among many men, as Bhaktavasya prabhu said, to think contrarily to this statement. I remember as early as 1976, though, getting my first glimmer of this type of attitude and prejudice, which somehow was never taken to that extent in the earlier days. We were as a happy family unit of brothers and sisters, some of us married, some not. Around the time I saw this starting, I noticed how a lot of negativity and divisiveness was spreading its evil tentacles throughout the movement. I have always always considered this one of the major causes of the breakdown of our society (and of course this phenomenon is backed by Lord Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita). And it is no better than male-bashing is. It's a terrible attitude for anyone calling himself a devotee to have, and will surely have a profound affect on his spiritual growth.

 

Whether Srila Prabhupada said it or not, the fact is that Canakya Pandit was not a devotee.

 

Another, much more important fact is, regardless of what Srila Prabhupada said, he never ever intended any of his words to be used as an excuse for men bringing their childhood hangups to the movement and using them against women, or to boost their egos, which is most unconducive to spiritual life.

 

I know theist is joking, and that doesn't bother me. But I am surprised and dismayed at Ram, who until now I considered to be very intelligent. Well, there are differnt types of intelligence, as we can see!

 

I have to go now. There is a tiny round red bug circumambulating on my keyboard, no kidding, and I want to watch it for a while. the other day, a strange flying beetle thing that looked like an iridescent black feather chased me, on the ground, all over the yard. I would move two feet this way, he would follow. I would move three feet another way, there he would come. I made him walk in a complete circle by moving around. I was awestruck by the intelligence of this creature. Just shows brain mass proves nuttin'.

JR

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by raga:

I have met a lot of men who are unable to recognize intelligent women on account of their own poor fund of intelligence.

 

Food for thought.

Digested. Let me improve my stand.

 

Those devotees, incl.women, who are worshipping the Lord by sankirtan are intelligent (su medsah).

 

 

 

[JRdd]

Hi, theist. I didn't know anyonme else was here. I agree with everything you say in this latest post, but you have omitted the many types of intelligence that women have too. Common sense is one very good example. and don't forget, Draupadi managed five husbands, kept their accounts, kept charge of the servants, etc. etc. Women are famous for having the flexibility and intelligence for multi-tasking. I could go on and on thinking of different types of intelligence particular to women, but it would be funner to see someone else add to the list. Even funner would be if a male-bodied forumite did.

JR

[leyh]

Originally posted by ram:

Krishna can joke or laugh under all circumstances. He was smiling in the midst of two armies - prahAsann iva bhAratha - which is not so common. I still have a strong feeling that this must have been a joke. Intelligent woman. The only intelligent woman I know in the 14 worlds is Goddess Saraswati. But you know my knowledge is limited. You may be right.

I'm not saying that Krsna is incapable of humour.One of things I find attractive about Krsna is His irreverent side.For example in His joking request to Rukmini to abandon Him and find another husband.But the battlefield of Kuruksetra was a serious occasion and Arjuna's dilemma was a crisis and it was not a time and place for jokes,as confirmed by Srila Prabhupada in his purport to Bhagavad-gita 2.7:

 

"Being intelligent, Arjuna could understand that his affection for family members and his wish to protect them from death were the causes of his perplexities. Although he could understand that his duty to fight was awaiting him, still, on account of miserly weakness, he could not discharge the duties. He is therefore asking Lord Krsna, the supreme spiritual master, to make a definite solution. He offers himself to Krsna as a disciple. He wants to stop friendly talks. Talks between the master and the disciple are serious, and now Arjuna wants to talk very seriously before the recognized spiritual master. (italics added)"

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-16-2002).]

[raga]

According to Kapiladeva's Bhagavat Sankhya, intelligence has five prominent features, which are as follows (3.26.30):<blockquote><center>saMzayo ’tha viparyAso

nizcayaH smRtir eva ca

svApa ity ucyate buddher

lakSaNaM vRttitaH pRthak</center>

Doubt, misapprehension, correct apprehension, memory and sleep, as determined by their different functions, are said to be the distinct characteristics of intelligence.</blockquote>I would love to see an analysis of intelligence among men and women based on this definition of intelligence.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Whether Srila Prabhupada said it or not, the fact is that Canakya Pandit was not a devotee.

Well, not an ISKCON devotee.

 

He shows signs of devotion to both Shiva and Vishnu in some of his writings. Perhaps he belonged to the panchopasana school (worship of five divinities).

 

Manu on the other hand is a vaishnava pure devotee, one of the Mahajanas whom we follow (Manu Samhita is written by Svayambhuva Manu).

 

It really isn't all that important of a subject, as devotees receive spiritual knowledge directly from Krishna and do not depend on their material faculties.

[theist]

 

Originally posted by JRdd:

Hi, theist. I didn't know anyonme else was here. I agree with everything you say in this latest post, but you have omitted the many types of intelligence that women have too. Common sense is one very good example. and don't forget, Draupadi managed five husbands, kept their accounts, kept charge of the servants, etc. etc.

 

Hi JRdd,

 

Good example.The exception that proves the rule.Draupadi was certainly glorious.

 

 

Women are famous for having the flexibility and intelligence for multi-tasking.

Agreed.Cleaning the house, watching soap operas,shopping,watching soap operas,laundry,gossiping with friends,thawing out the frozen food for dinner.

 

A current exception would be Karen Hughes from the Bush administration.

 

I could go on and on thinking of different types of intelligence particular to women, but it would be funner to see someone else add to the list. Even funner would be if a male-bodied forumite did.

JR

 

I contributed above.I should add they are also very very tricky.

 

Any others...?