An Apparent Contradiction

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by JRdd:

I know theist is joking, and that doesn't bother me. But I am surprised and dismayed at Ram, who until now I considered to be very intelligent. Well, there are differnt types of intelligence, as we can see!

 

Prabhu, to be considered intelligent, I am ready to consider everyone intelligent -

 

But on a serious note, I think your points about the effects of not respecting women on the society are very valid. Humor in light vein may be fine. But there should not be any discriminatory treatment as it would affect the overall growth of the society.

 

Historically, ill-treatment of women is a medieval concept. I have heard from some one that during the Vedic times, even in the material spehere women were not given any secondary position. According to him, the Vedic times encouraged women to become doctors, engineers, poets etc.

 

Spritually, I heard that the women did not chant the Vedic hymns or gAyatri because the austerities undertaken to chant these mantras give so much potency that the chakras in their body cannot hold it without causing negative effect on their health or their foetus. (Chakras in women rotate in the oppsite direction). But they did get the benefit from their husband.

[theist]

Originally posted by raga:

According to Kapiladeva's Bhagavat Sankhya, intelligence has five prominent features, which are as follows (3.26.30):<blockquote><center>saMzayo ’tha viparyAso

nizcayaH smRtir eva ca

svApa ity ucyate buddher

lakSaNaM vRttitaH pRthak</center>

Doubt, misapprehension, correct apprehension, memory and sleep, as determined by their different functions, are said to be the distinct characteristics of intelligence.</blockquote>I would love to see an analysis of intelligence among men and women based on this definition of intelligence.

Sleep?Well I can doubt and sleep.2 out of 5.

 

How is sleep a sign or activity of intelligence ram?

 

 

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

I never had access Srila Prabhupad's corresponence to various disciples, and it just may have been during a personal darshan in India at the time. I do remember that it was at the height of the 'women are maya' fever than was dominating most classes and it must have had some validity because it was begudging accepted when the famous dismissal of Canyaka as a 'bonefide source' was issued. Maybe Jaya Radhe had some recollection of it, whether it was in a letter or 'latest news' after a Mayapur festival. The date was approximately 1978.

 

 

Sorry, the date would have had to to have bben before November of 1977. The reason the date 1978 stuck out in my mind is that I was in a temple in South Africa at the time when the Canyaka quotes being refuted most vigorously by some grhastas. As I said previously Canyaka's words as good as scripture only subsided for a while. There are still some 'hangers-on-ers' who left Iskcon years ago yet still like to use those quotes as a way to dismiss and insult women. As could be expected, it ALWAYS turns people of who are new to Krishna Conscious philosophy, especially women.

 

 

[Bhaktavasya]

 

Another note on intelligence. I can't remember whether it was in a purport or an actual verse, but Prabhupad defined intelligence as the ability to distinguish between spirit and matter. So anyone who identifies with the body as the self would be less intelligent.

 

At a philosopy cafe that I go to the topic two weeks ago was intelligence. The discussion covered the different types of intelligence. For example emotional intelligence and what is called common sense is a kind of intelligence that has been overlooked by even great philosophers since the time of Plato, and just recently has been figured into the intelligence quota.

 

I'm reminded of the story of the boatman, the scientist, the movie star and the rich man. It was re-enacted as a play in some temples. As the story goes, the scientist, movie star and rich man hired a boat man to ferry them across the river. The passengers were bragging about their worldy accomplishments, always finishing thier self-congratulatory comments with "Did you know that, boatman?" and "have you ever done that, boatman?" Always the boatman would reply "No", he didn't know, never experienced. The boat springs a leak and everyone but the boatman panics. Turns out the boatman was the only one who knew how to swim!

 

 

[theist]

Prabhupäda: Canakya, Canakya Pandit. He was a great politician and brähmaëa.

Yamunä: Was he in Lord Caitanya’s time?

Prabhupäda: No, no. He was five thousand years..., not. Three thousand years.

Haàsadüta: He was a great devotee?

Devotee: No.

Haàsadüta: No?

Guest (1): He was politician. He was a mathematician.

Prabhupäda: He was very learned scholar, brähmaëa, rigid brähmaëa. That’s all.

 

----------

 

In different births we play different roles.I think women have many advantages in spiritual practice.Not getting the respect or appreciation you deserve?Krsna's mercy.

 

Let those in the male forms climb to the top of the instituional ladder.Who cares.Krsna is not attracted by that attainment but by humble bhakti.I believe the female pyscho/emotional makeup is more conducive to developing a soft heart.I might be wrong but I see that as a plus to their side of the ledger.

 

Especially when considering the ultimate rasa as taught by the Gaudiya Vaisnavas is femine in nature.

 

We shouldn't sweat the external circunstances too much.Respect to all souls is a sign of true intelligence where all are seen as Krsna's parts.Who is left to disrespect?

[gHari]

Aptly named, our Theist has just struck the nail dead-center, upon the hearts and head of all devotees. This nonsense is now finished forever.

[theist]

That story of the boatman that Bhaktyavasya spoke of is one of my favorites.

 

A slightly different variation that I heard:

 

A great and celebrated scholar hires a boatman to take him across the river.While crossing he asks the boatman"Boatman have you studied mathematics?No sir" replied the boatman."Ah then 25% of your life has been wasted" says the scholar."Have you studied literature?No sir" said the boatman as he kept rowing."Then 50% of your life is wasted" and then the scholar asked if the boatman knew of astronomy and again the boatman answered "No sir" as he looked to the sky. "A pity,75% of your life has been wasted".

 

While looking to the sky the boatman noticed a strong storm was quickly approaching and they were still far from shore, so he asked the scholar"Sir, do you know how to swim?"The scholar said no."Oh sir, then 100% percent of your life is now wasted".

 

 

[theist]

Does anyone know the story of how the rabbit killed the lion?

 

Please post if you know.

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by JRdd:

Yes, I remember exactly the same thing, and I also put the date around the mid-seventies, when this was circulated around all the temples. I reemmber that Srila Prabhupada said he was a politician (and we know he was aide to a king, if I am not mistaken on this point). I wonder if anyone can come up with source material? In the early days (maybe not so much as in the mid-seventies, but earlier than that) I remember that the movement was small enough that we had an almost instant grapevine, all the time. In those days, most devotees even knew of most of the other devotees in the movement, by name, and what they were known for, or some pastime about them, even if they had never met. For example, I was surprised to discover that little me was known for my cooking among some temples I'd never been to.

 

My point is, a lot of what Srila Prabhupada said may not be recorded, or provable now, but I doubt whether many men, in the positions to share what Srila Prabhupada told them, would be so inclined to make this up, since it was so popular among many men, as Bhaktavasya prabhu said, to think contrarily to this statement. I remember as early as 1976, though, getting my first glimmer of this type of attitude and prejudice, which somehow was never taken to that extent in the earlier days. We were as a happy family unit of brothers and sisters, some of us married, some not. Around the time I saw this starting, I noticed how a lot of negativity and divisiveness was spreading its evil tentacles throughout the movement. I have always always considered this one of the major causes of the breakdown of our society (and of course this phenomenon is backed by Lord Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita). And it is no better than male-bashing is. It's a terrible attitude for anyone calling himself a devotee to have, and will surely have a profound affect on his spiritual growth.

 

Whether Srila Prabhupada said it or not, the fact is that Canakya Pandit was not a devotee.

 

Another, much more important fact is, regardless of what Srila Prabhupada said, he never ever intended any of his words to be used as an excuse for men bringing their childhood hangups to the movement and using them against women, or to boost their egos, which is most unconducive to spiritual life.

 

I know theist is joking, and that doesn't bother me. But I am surprised and dismayed at Ram, who until now I considered to be very intelligent. Well, there are differnt types of intelligence, as we can see!

 

I have to go now. There is a tiny round red bug circumambulating on my keyboard, no kidding, and I want to watch it for a while. the other day, a strange flying beetle thing that looked like an iridescent black feather chased me, on the ground, all over the yard. I would move two feet this way, he would follow. I would move three feet another way, there he would come. I made him walk in a complete circle by moving around. I was awestruck by the intelligence of this creature. Just shows brain mass proves nuttin'.

JR

Jayaradhe; vancha kalpa and all that, okay? Yes, the good old days that really were. The c-r-a-p that pulled It all down. Or so it seemed.

I submitted my condensed story for a contest for a local/international (CHUM of Much and Much More Music, BRAVO, the Originals, etc) television station and film company, and we applicants were supposed to hear by the end of May which stories would be selected for film production. When I phoned on May 31st the girl on the phone said they were still deciding. I believe in truth that Krishna is the One controllng the scene when it's his story that is at stake. My story is part of it, but it can't be told unless and until the ones who were there, did that, can have their say.

 

Speaking of someone with a lot to say, how is the (retired?)High Priestess? We quarelled, e-mail addresses were deleted, give my vancha kalpas to her too.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Bhaktavasya (edited 06-16-2002).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

As I said previously Canyaka's words as good as scripture only subsided for a while.

The funny thing is Chanakya's words are scripture, or at least word for word quotations from it. Not just the Manu samhita, but a number of scriptural texts have nearly identical verses as Chanakya's writings - for example Brihaspati-niti Sara.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by theist:

Sleep?Well I can doubt and sleep.2 out of 5.

 

How is sleep a sign or activity of intelligence ram?

 

 

Sleep is the highest sign of intelligence. If we read the verse that Raga posted it shows not just the signs but a gradation of signs. First one gets doubt. This agitates the mind. Then one forms wrong conclusions. Most people get stuck at this stage due to dogmatism. The intelligent ones progress towards correct conclusions. Even at this stage some may forget. For example, devotees in their low ebb may forget the highs in devotion. But the really intelligent ones remember. So memory is even higher. Even Krishna says that loss of memory leads to delusion. Krishna also says that a yogi (devotee) should sleep for the right amount of time. In sleep the memory becomes persistent. Intelligence is for conquest over doubt which caused the agitation of the mind, loss of peace and unhappiness. One who has conquered over doubt and is fixed in proper knowledge can actually sleep happily. So it is the highest sign of intelligence. So, if you can doubt and sleep, then you have all the symptoms of intelligence. Is this some tricky way to declare intelligence while sounding humble ? -

 

Side note : Modern research shows that it is in sleep memory is strengthened.

[JRdd]

Originally posted by ram:

The only intelligent woman I know in the 14 worlds is Goddess Saraswati. But you know my knowledge is limited. You may be right.

Your experience may also be limited. How old are you?

 

JR

 

 

[JRdd]

Originally posted by jndas:

Well, not an ISKCON devotee.

 

He shows signs of devotion to both Shiva and Vishnu in some of his writings. Perhaps he belonged to the panchopasana school (worship of five divinities).

 

Manu on the other hand is a vaishnava pure devotee, one of the Mahajanas whom we follow (Manu Samhita is written by Svayambhuva Manu).

 

It really isn't all that important of a subject, as devotees receive spiritual knowledge directly from Krishna and do not depend on their material faculties.

I felt I was walking a shaky path when I stated that he was not a devotee. Thanks for the clarification.

 

I guess I had a temporary glitch in my intelligence.

 

JR

 

[JRdd]

Originally posted by JRdd:

...you have omitted the many types of intelligence that women have too. Common sense is one very good example. and don't forget, Draupadi managed five husbands, kept their accounts, kept charge of the servants, etc. etc.

 

Originally posted by theist:

 

Good example.The exception that proves the rule.Draupadi was certainly glorious.

 

I thought we were talking about intelligence of women in this sphere. Of course none of us measure up to Draupadi. But to use her glorious example (which is told for our aspiration) as a way to prove others' lack of intelligence is unintelligent. (And a to you too!)

 

originally posted by JRdd:

Women are famous for having the flexibility and intelligence for multi-tasking.

 

Agreed.Cleaning the house, watching soap operas,shopping,watching soap operas,laundry,gossiping with friends,thawing out the frozen food for dinner.

 

I personally know no woman whose life consists mainly of these activities. I'm so sorry that your experience has limited you to knowing only the type of woman you describe above. (And another )

 

I contributed [examples of women's intelligence] above.I should add they are also very very tricky.

 

Tricky? Maybe to you they are. I found them a walk in the park.

(I'm starting to get the hang of this winking thing. It lets you get away with saying anything, doesn't it? )

 

Any others...?

 

Just this: It is only your post of 7:01 that vindicates you from these statements. At least in part. Oh yeah:

 

JR

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 06-16-2002).]

[Bhaktavasya]

 

Jayradhe; last night I posted a concilatory (make-ing up after 'quarelling) post to you, which was deleted.

 

Jndas; I don't get it. My post was in praise of 'the good times' of the early Iskcon days, with only a passing comment of the 'stuff' that ALMOST ruined the movement. Can't you at least give a reason why my post was deleted?

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by JRdd:

Your experience may also be limited. How old are you?

 

JR

 

 

 

Krishna says I am purana - the oldest. There was never a time when I did not exist. Given that I can track my life back to almost 30 years, I am sure the Lord is very close to the truth. -

 

[JRdd]

Ram prabhu:

 

I read your last post (the one in which you most cleverly and amusingly analyzed the five signs of intelligence raga posted), and changed my mind about your intelligence. I think.

 

But I have a few comments or questions on this post....

 

 

Originally posted by ram:

But on a serious note, I think your points about the effects of not respecting women on the society are very valid. Humor in light vein may be fine. But there should not be any discriminatory treatment as it would affect the overall growth of the society.

 

 

There shouldn't be discriminatory treatment anyway. Not just to keep society going. It it simply ignorant, and of course ignorance opposes enlightenment. Discrimination and nondiscrimination have everything to do with the individual. Not just society, and organization. And if in our own personal lives, we can not appreciate those around us, and act with loving-kindness, but instead deride them, we are missing a great opportunity to grow spiritually. One should be very very concerned about his/her own spiritual advancement as expressed by his/her attitudes, thoughts, words, and behaviour.

 

Historically, ill-treatment of women is a medieval concept. I have heard from some one that during the Vedic times, even in the material sphere women were not given any secondary position.

 

I feel you are getting off the point here because you do not want to admit to intelligence in women. Ill-treatment of women is a side-issue, and a relevant one for sure, but it is the derogatory attitudes toward women (including refusal to acknowledge their intelligence, and/or engage them accordingly) is not only immature, but it causes the ill treatment you speak of. You are still not admitting to women's intelligence, here.

 

According to him, the Vedic times encouraged women to become doctors, engineers, poets etc.

 

According to who? I never heard this before. I do not mean to say this challengingly. I am interested.

 

Spritually, I heard that the women did not chant the Vedic hymns or gAyatri because the austerities undertaken to chant these mantras give so much potency that the chakras in their body cannot hold it without causing negative effect on their health or their foetus. (Chakras in women rotate in the oppsite direction). But they did get the benefit from their husband.

 

These days, neither those in male bodies nor those in female bodies have the ability to perform the austerities previously performed. And rare is the husband who will lead his wife spiritually. Srila Prabhupada encouraged a lot of friendship and mutual support in our relationships. With his excpetional perceptions, he was able to easily assess the conditions of his disciples, and instruct accordingly.

 

Personally, I adored following his instructions to serve the husband faithfully. A woman is naturally prone to be submissive, and likes when a man takes charge (not to control or manipulate), and protect her while he loves her. But we are not fanatics who adhere to a tenet at any cost, and if the man has not the qualities to perform his side of the deal with at least a certain amount of pure intentions, it just doesn't work. And it is truly heart-breaking and tragic. It upsets me when devotees spend time trying to defeat women's obvious intelligence, instead of looking within to see how they can contribute to world and universal and transcendental peace and love, both within and without, by adjusting their attitudes toward, and treatment of, others.

 

I do not believe this is possible, however, without acquiring transcendental vision, through vigorous chanting, for even respectfulness on a mundane level is sorely lacking all over. Most likely, we are all prejudiced in some way or other. We must be, to be in this conditioned state. But that doesn't mean we can't strive to modify ourselves along the way to transcendence. Fortunately, we're excused for our thoughts in this age. Krsna changed the rules, added a handicap, to allow for our exceptional blindness. By acting in a certain way, we may change our thoughts, just like smiling can immediately lift a mood.

 

thanks, JR

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 06-16-2002).]

[theist]

Bhaktyavasya, I think the post you refer to is still there.Also I knew you were just giving a synopsis of the boatman story.I like it so I flushed it out a bit.Not trying to compete.

 

JRdd, Touche I get a lot of mileage out of the icon.

 

Ram, In my reply to the above list I had mistakenly attributed it to your posting instead of Raga.Perhaps Raga will also offer an explanation if different from yours.

 

I am not convinced on the sleep answer though.Bodily growth also occurs during sleep.Is a bear intelligent?I probably just don't get it yet so I am excercising my doubting ability a bit.

 

You are right about me trying to appear humble. Since I have no true humility I must resort to faking it, like this.

 

Me so fallen, nay, the most fallen.

 

theist(the lowly)

[JRdd]

Originally posted by raga:

According to Kapiladeva's Bhagavat Sankhya, intelligence has five prominent features, which are as follows (3.26.30):<blockquote><center>saMzayo ’tha viparyAso

nizcayaH smRtir eva ca

svApa ity ucyate buddher

lakSaNaM vRttitaH pRthak</center>

Doubt, misapprehension, correct apprehension, memory and sleep, as determined by their different functions, are said to be the distinct characteristics of intelligence.</blockquote>I would love to see an analysis of intelligence among men and women based on this definition of intelligence.

Interesting! I would love to see his comment on this verse. Is it available?

 

JR

 

 

[JRdd]

 

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

As I said previously Canyaka's words as good as scripture only subsided for a while. There are still some 'hangers-on-ers' who left Iskcon years ago yet still like to use those quotes as a way to dismiss and insult women. As could be expected, it ALWAYS turns people of who are new to Krishna Conscious philosophy, especially women.

 

HI, BV. Of course vanaca kalpa tarubhyas ca....I remember how harmonious temple life was, and how in the very rare moments of misunderstandings, one of the contestants would bow at the others' feet and offer this humble prayer. The other one would immediately melt to the ground too. No one had to say anything else on the matter; it was immediately no longer a source of contention for either devotee, and was also easily seen as just part of reacting under the modes of material nature.

 

It is scary that the negative attitude towards women still prevails in some transcendental aspirants. Just see how important our actions are, how their effects can be felt even decades later. We should be so responsible about this.

 

JR

 

 

 

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by theist:

Bhaktyavasya, I think the post you refer to is still there.Also I knew you were just giving a synopsis of the boatman story.I like it so I flushed it out a bit.Not trying to compete.

 

 

Oops. My apologies to Jndas. From Krishna comes all knowledge, forgetfullness and it seems temporairy blindness too. (Sure, blame it on Krishna now). I must've been attached to my posting, now I am duly humbled.

 

 

[JRdd]

Originally posted by gHari:

Aptly named, our Theist has just struck the nail dead-center, upon the hearts and head of all devotees. This nonsense is now finished forever.

Right on.

 

JR

 

 

[JRdd]

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

Jndas; I don't get it.... Can't you at least give a reason why my post was deleted?

I don't know anything about this. If it was highly personal (as in private), I can understand why it was deleted. It's not right to talk about personal things about others in a public forum. It is our own choice how much we want to share of ourselves here, but it is unfair to share someone else's personal life here. Please forgive me if I shot short of the mark here, though.

 

JR

 

 

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by JRdd:

 

I agree. In the visible world people often carry grudges that last a lifetime. I recall Prabhupad saying that even if a devotee is not liberated, once beginning the path of devotional service some day he(she) will be, it's just a matter of time. Interestingly, the person who currently still likes to quote anti-women stuff also has only bad memories of Iskcon and a sharp memory when it comes to anyone's faults and falldowns. There is a circle of devotee friends and friends who are attracted to Krishna Consciousness who get together for picnics and celebrations who have become so fed up with his negativity that his assosiation is avoided. Even his girlfriend at one time, who was being introduced to Krishna consciousness through him, became turned off by his fault-finding tendencies when they came to visit me just after I recieved some CDs by Tripurari in the mail, which lifted my spirit up from the malaise I'd been stewing in for a long time. As soon as I mentioned Tripurari's name this man instantly began deriding him. She looked really uncomfortable as if to say "Not again!" It was the last time I invited him into my home. The bizarre thing was she got pregnant with his child and he pulled the "I am renounced from family life and am just a travelling minstrel" excuse to avoid responsiblity. Fortunately her attraction to Krishna outweighs her dismay at being treated so shabbily by 'a devotee' and she is trying to learn to forgive and let go.

 

In keeping with the "are men all more intelligent than women?" topic, here's a man who is materially intelligent enough to memorize mantras, 'selected' quotes, stories from the Mahabharat but cannot give respects to devotees who are at least trying to spread the glories of the holy name. The woman, although 'new' to bhakti yoga, is intelligent enough not to blame Krishna or 'the devotees' for her unfortunate circumstances. BTW, she had the baby and named him Hari.

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by theist:

Is a bear intelligent?I probably just don't get it yet so I am excercising my doubting ability a bit.

 

The material intelligence of lower animals cannot be underestimated. The intelligence with which the spider builds its web or the beavers build the dam. They are marvellous wonders of nature.