JRdd Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 theist is a bear. Ask him about this. BV: I like how you threw in the extra word to this thread's theme: Are men ALL more intelligent than women? Without it, the argument seems too black and white. JRdd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 Originally posted by JRdd: Interesting! I would love to see his comment on this verse. Is it available? JR Whose comment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRdd Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 Oh, sorry! I was referring to the five signs of intelligence you cited. JR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 Originally posted by JRdd: Oh, sorry! I was referring to the five signs of intelligence you cited. JR Yes I understand, but whose comments on that verse would you like to see? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shashi Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 Originally posted by JRdd: theist is a bear. Theist is Lalita's cow! Any intelligent person can be seeing this! And does anyone knowing that cows are ALL more intelligent than bulls? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 Mooo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shashi Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 Originally posted by theist: Mooo Is that being Mooo for Madhu or Mooo for Maitreya? After all Mooo for Mudha is an apparent contradiction! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRdd Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 Originally posted by Shashi: [bAnd does anyone knowing that cows are ALL more intelligent than bulls? Of course. JR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shashi Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 Originally posted by JRdd: Of course. JR You! How dare you be calling him a bear?!!!! Anyway are you not being sick? You should be in bed. If not why are not at school? Maybe you are being UNUSWALLY unintelligent for the female kind and perhaps no school will be wanting you? Bear indeed! BTW are you a dear? Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 Of course, she is very dear to everyone here. And, so are you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atma Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 "We are Vaisnavas. We are not concerned with male or female position in life. That is simple bodily concept of life. It is not spiritual. Whether one is male or female, it doesn't matter, simply chant Hare Krsna and follow the four regulative principles and your life will be perfect." (SPL to Jennifer,15th February,1975) "Now I see that in our society the girls are more intelligent than the boys." (SPL to Krsna Devi, 17th February,1970) "I am so much pleased to receive your letter dated Hrsikesa 22, 484 Caitanya Era and I am so glad to learn that our London temple is very, very well managed under your supervision. Kindly continue this standard of temple management-that will make me very happy." (SPL to Yamuna, 16th September, 1970) "...So far as girls or boys lecturing in the morning, that doesn't make any difference. Either girl or boy devotees may deliver lecture if they choose to do. We have no such distinction of bodily designations, male or female...". (SPL to Syama dasi, 21st October, 1968) "Regarding lecturing by women devotees: I have informed you that in the service of the Lord there is no distinction of caste, or creed, colour, or sex. In the Bhagavad -gita, the Lord especially mentions that even a woman who has taken seriously is also destined to reach Him. We require a person who is in the knowledge of Krsna, that is the only qualification of a person speaking. It doesn't matter what he is. Materially a woman may be les intelligent than a man, but spiritually everyone is pure soul. In the absolute plane there is no gradation of higher and lower, If a woman can lecture nicely and to the point, we should hear her carefully. That is our philosophy. But if a man can speak better than a woman, the man should be given first preference. But even though a woman is less intelligent, a sincere soul should be given proper chance to speak, because we want so many preachers, both men and women." (SPL to Jayagovinda, 8th February, 1968) "....Jadurani has now become a nice preacher. I have report from Satsvarupa that she gives lectures very nicely. If we open a pavillion I shall take Jadurani also at that time so she will deliver nice lectures...." (SPL to Mahapurusa, March 28th, 1968) "regarding your question, yes a woman can certaintly reach the perfectional stage of devotion to Krsna. And the gopis of Vrindavan are the best example of this. They are simple cowherd girls and Lord Caitanya has praised their worship of Lord Krsna as the highest form of worship. Krsna consciousness is trascendental to all such mundane considerations as if one's body is male or female. This is the meaning of spiritual: Krsna consciousness is beyond the limited body idea." (SPL to Krsna devi, 2nd November, 1969) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 Shashi,M is for mistaken identity. atma has been doing some investigative work, and those quotes are very straight forward. Jennifer is especially interesting as this was someone who was male bodied and considering switching over in mid-stream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhaktajoy Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 Atma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atma Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 I like the one to Krsna devi: "now I see that in our society the girls are more intelligent than the boys." "...So I am especially proud how my householder disciples are preaching Lord chaitanya's mission. This is a new thing in the history of the sankirtana movement. In India all the Acharyas and their descendants later on acted only from the man's side. Their wives were at home because that is the system from old times that women are not required to go out. But in Bhagavad-gita we find that women are also equally competent like the men in the matter of Krsna consciousness movement. Please therefore carry on these missionary activities, and prove it by practical example that there is no bar for anyone in the matter of preaching work for Krsna consciousness.(SPL to Himavati. December 20th,1969) Srila Prabhupada is the perfect acharya who gave the mercy to everybody, including "Jennifer".... "Regarding the disturbance made by women devotees, they are also living beings. They also came to Krsna. So consciously I cannot deny them. If our male members, the brahmacaris and sannyasis, if they became steady in Krsna consciousness, there is no problem. It is the duty of the male members to be very steady and cautious. This can be done by regular chanting like Haridasa Thakura did. Whenever there is a young woman, we should remember Haridasa Thakur and beg his mercy to protect us, and we should think that this beautiful gopis are meant for the enjoyment of Krsna. It is a dilemma for our society that we cannot deny these girls, and at the same time they are a great dangerous allurement to the young boys. Yes. as you say, I necer think in terms of Indian or American regarding my students. I take you all as parts and parcels of Krsna." (SPL to Gargamuni Swami, 29th September,1975) I think that it is very clear that less or more intelligent is the material side because spiritually we're all equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atma Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 I'm reading Srila Prabhupada's letters and I think theist will appreciate this one very much: "....I am still more glad to learn that you are going to observe the third birthday of Miss Kamla Agarwal on Saturday next. On this occasion I should have prepared her some ornaments but as I am a sannyasi I simply offer my blessings for her long life and good prosperity, She cannot now read otherwise at least I should have presented her a set of my books. But you set aside one set of my books for her future reading when she will grow up a beautiful and educated girl with full God consciousness. I am obliged to your good daughter for awarding me a good degree as 'SWAMI JESUS' which is actually a great honor for me." (SPL to Sally, 19th November, 1965) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhaktavasya Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 Atma; great mined jewells! Here's another Prabhupad saying: "On the dance floor, everyone is equal." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 atma, that was great.So sweet.The first post I read today which I'm taking as an omen of great auspiciousness. Where is 'little' Kamala today I wonder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karthik_v Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 Priginally posted by Ram: Historically, ill-treatment of women is a medieval concept. I have heard from some one that during the Vedic times, even in the material spehere women were not given any secondary position. According to him, the Vedic times encouraged women to become doctors, engineers, poets etc. What about computer programmers, pilots and internet hackers? Is there any samhita or upanishad that talks of women being encouraged to become a neuro-surgeon? Thanks in advance for the information Originally posted by Ram: Spritually, I heard that the women did not chant the Vedic hymns or gAyatri because the austerities undertaken to chant these mantras give so much potency that the chakras in their body cannot hold it without causing negative effect on their health or their foetus. (Chakras in women rotate in the oppsite direction). But they did get the benefit from their husband. Did you hear it from a mullah? If so, then how come sarvanukramanis list 21 of the 400 + compilers in the vedas as rishikas? If those women were qualified enough to be revealed the vedas, then how come they weren't qualified enough to recite the gayatri mantra that came of the vedas? Or could it be that when the vedas were revealed to them, their enlightened husbands stood nearby and rotated their chakras in anti-clockwise direction so that they don't get ill? I seriously wonder if the man as the all pervading boss of the family concept existed in the distant past. Rk veda [funeral hymn] talks of the wife being told to go ahead and chose any man she wants after her husband was cremated. If so, perversions like tonsuring of the widows or wretched treatment of women might not have existed in the vedic era. Atleast there is nothing in the vedas to suggest that they did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shashi Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 <font color=red>"On the dance floor, everyone is equal."</font> Originally posted by Shashi: -----why are not at school? Maybe you are being UNUSWALLY unintelligent for the female kind and perhaps no school will be wanting you? ---- BTW are you a dear? Last night I am dreaming that I am seeing JRdd dance with a school of dolphins in Ma Jamuna. Whoever heard of such a thing? A dear with dolphins. Most unequal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 quote: -- Priginally posted by Ram: Historically, ill-treatment of women is a medieval concept. I have heard from some one that during the Vedic times, even in the material spehere women were not given any secondary position. According to him, the Vedic times encouraged women to become doctors, engineers, poets etc. -- What about computer programmers, pilots and internet hackers? Is there any samhita or upanishad that talks of women being encouraged to become a neuro-surgeon? Thanks in advance for the information In the vedic times, there was no internet hacking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 Originally posted by karthik_v: Did you hear it from a mullah? If so, then how come sarvanukramanis list 21 of the 400 + compilers in the vedas as rishikas? If those women were qualified enough to be revealed the vedas, then how come they weren't qualified enough to recite the gayatri mantra that came of the vedas? Or could it be that when the vedas were revealed to them, their enlightened husbands stood nearby and rotated their chakras in anti-clockwise direction so that they don't get ill? I seriously wonder if the man as the all pervading boss of the family concept existed in the distant past. Rk veda [funeral hymn] talks of the wife being told to go ahead and chose any man she wants after her husband was cremated. If so, perversions like tonsuring of the widows or wretched treatment of women might not have existed in the vedic era. Atleast there is nothing in the vedas to suggest that they did. Can you give me the source of 21/400 compilers of Vedas being women ? If that is so then all the modern concepts about vedic concept of women comes under question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 Prabhupada told this story in a lecture on the SB sixth canto.Better heard than read though.You get the sense of being in the room with him. On intelligence being real power, How the Rabbit Killed the Lion: There is a story that a lion was killed by a rabbit. Çaçakena nipätitaù. Why? Now, buddhir yasya balaà tasya: “One who has got intelligence, he has got power.” A lion is very mighty, ferocious animal, and a çaçaka, a ordinary rabbit, he killed a lion. How? Now the lion was disturbing all animals, so all the animals held a meeting and called the lion: “Sir, you do not try to kill us all, hunting after everyone. We shall go voluntarily every day, one of us. So you don’t create disturbance. Let us become peaceful.” So lion agreed, “All right, if you voluntarily come, I will sleep, and if you enter in my mouth...” So this was the agreement. There was the turn of one rabbit. So he planned something. So he went to the lion a little late. So lion was very angry that “Why you have come late? I am very hungry, and you did not come.” (laughter) So the rabbit said, “Sir, there was a danger in the way.” “What is that?” “There is another lion, and he wanted to kill me and eat, so I protested, ‘No, sir, you cannot kill me. (laughter) I am destined to be killed by such and such lion, so you cannot do it.’ ” So he was very much pleased: “Where is that lion?” “Please come. I will show you.” So he took him near one well. So he... The rabbit said, “He is living within this.” (laughter) The lion immediately... “Come on. Make a how!’ ”[Prabhupada makes the sound of the lion roaring into the well] So there was vibration[echo], still higher sound, and he saw his photo, yes, shadow[reflection]. So he thought it, “Yes, there is lion.” He immediately jumped over him.[into the well to kill the imagined lion] (devotees laugh) Finished. So how the lion was killed by the rabbit? Now, buddhir yasya balaà tasya: “One who has got intelligence, he has got power.” [This message has been edited by theist (edited 06-18-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atma Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 Tonight while I was walking in the neighborhood I saw one of my kids talking with her devotee friends and she stopped me and very angry told me: "tell him to shut up because he is not listening to me", I sent her home instead of fighting her battles with the boys and at home before going to bed she asked me: "Is Srila Prabhupada racist?", I told her no and asked her why she asked that and she told me that one of the boys was saying: "Prabhupada was racist because he said all the black people were monkeys in their previous life and the women are less intelligent". I assured her that Srila Prabhupada saw all of us as parts and parcels of Lord Krsna and many people said "Prabhupada said" that were never told by Him but in anycase about women are less intelligent that is only in the material platform and that Srila Prabhupada always gave his mercy, encouragement and service to all the girls that came to this movement. He had Himavati giving lecture in the pandals programs in India, Jamuna leading kirtan in front of thousands of people and I gave her other examples. Then she said: "why they have us in the back of the temple room if we're all equals?", well,is not like that in all temples, depends in the authorities, in Mayapur one side is for the ladies and the other side is for the men, no problem at all. I told her that sometimes men have problems controlling their senses and they can't see women as mothers and they prefer to put the "problem" in the back of the room. Like that we had a long conversation, she told me that her teacher told her that women are smarter than men because now in college women are a mayority (I don't know how true is that). My conclusion was that in this lifetime we got these women's bodies with all the blessings and courses that come with it and we should try to trascend all this material designations, we have limits because of the body and we should become devotees of the Lord and never take birth again. Her conclusion was that she doesn't want to go to college because she wants to become a preacher and she'll be in front of the deities for every aratik and darshan and she will stuck up for the women and children because women and children come first. So for this summer the new program is to read Bhagavad-gita and Bhagavatam otherwise how can she become a preacher. Tomorrow I'll read to her from Prabhupada's letters about devotee women and I want them to know the philosophy very nicely so they can shut up non-sense boys that think they know it all just because his father is guru and GBC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 Since JRdd ji is not well, it may affect her health if she posts here frequently. If we ask her to post here, then she may do it to please her. But it will not be good if she does harm to herself in order to make us happy. She needs proper medication and rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shashi Posted June 18, 2002 Report Share Posted June 18, 2002 Originally posted by Avinash: Since JRdd ji is not well, it may affect her health if she posts here frequently. If we ask her to post here, then she may do it to please her. But it will not be good if she does harm to herself in order to make us happy. She needs proper medication and rest. Medication and rest AND pleasing utterances. AvinashJi, it is being medical and pschological fact that patients who are feeling loved and valued will be getting better faster. I am not insisting she be posting messages against her healthiness. My message for her was being my way of saying I am value her. Are you not understanding differences between the inspiring and the demanding? It is one thing that is dividing the great doctor from the mediocher one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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