Is Manu Smriti a part of the Vedas?

[vinay]

i would like to if manu smriti or the code of manu is a part of the vedas?

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by vinay:

i would like to if manu smriti or the code of manu is a part of the vedas?

 

Yes and No.

 

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by vinay:

i would like to if manu smriti or the code of manu is a part of the vedas?

Plain no. There is no mention in the vedas about any Manusmriti.

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by karthik_v:

Plain no. There is no mention in the vedas about any Manusmriti.

There is mention about Manu. His practces were Manu Smrtieven if he never wrote it down and stored it in his personal website.

 

No because whatever was taught to Manu was lost even before this yuga started. So what we have is spurious.

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Manu and his teachings are glorified throughout the scriptures, both in the Vedas, the Puranas and in the writings of the Acharyas.

 

Yajur Veda 2.2.10:

'Too much splendour is produced', they say, 'he is liable to become a leper'; he should insert the verses of Manu's; whatever Manu said is medicine."

 

The Bhagavatam states:

manvantarani sat-dharmah

 

"True religious principles are the injunctions of Manu."

 

See also

 

Sama Veda 1.1.5.10

Sama Veda 1.2.4.10

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 06-21-2002).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

No because whatever was taught to Manu was lost even before this yuga started. So what we have is spurious.

That is just your speculation. There is no mention that Manu's dharma shastra was lost. The dharma-shastras were being followed even in the time of Yudhishthira, but not by all.

 

The teachings of Manu that were lost (as referenced in the Gita) were the teachings of yoga, the process of linking with the Supreme Lord.

 

[vinay]

so was manu a god or just a human being like us?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Manu is a special incarnation of Lord Vishnu known as a manvantara avatara. For details, see the section on manvantara avataras here:

 

http://www.indiadivine.com/avatara-incarnations2.htm

 

There are two types of manvantara avataras, namely the incarnations that occur during the Manu's reign, and the incarnation of the Manu himself. Both are known by the same classification.

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 06-21-2002).]

[vinay]

i hav read the manu smriti, and i found to my dismay that the code set by manu is a lot discriminating to woman redcing them to something like menial workers. The caste system mentioned in the smriti is unbelievable that it gives the feeling as though caste system had something to do with hinduism.

how come an incarnaion of vishnu, give mankind, a set of codes that sets a sort of discriminative rules against the weaker sez, and the rigid caste system?

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by jndas:

That is just your speculation. There is no mention that Manu's dharma shastra was lost. The dharma-shastras were being followed even in the time of Yudhishthira, but not by all.

 

The teachings of Manu that were lost (as referenced in the Gita) were the teachings of yoga, the process of linking with the Supreme Lord.

Agree. Krishna never speaks about the loss of manu smrti.

 

 

[xxvvii]

I read its Chinese version. Frankly speaking, some terms intervene the jurisdiction of God, some terms make people attach to them instead of intangible truth, & some terms are diff. to put into practise at least now. However, it is of no problem to be used as a beneficial reference.

 

[This message has been edited by xxvvii (edited 06-23-2002).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

However, it is of no problem to be used as a beneficial reference.

I think all books, regardless of whether they are interpolated or not, need to be preserved for reference - and they should be made accessible as much as possible.

 

[devan]

Originally posted by vinay:

i hav read the manu smriti, and i found to my dismay that the code set by manu is a lot discriminating to woman redcing them to something like menial workers. The caste system mentioned in the smriti is unbelievable that it gives the feeling as though caste system had something to do with hinduism.

how come an incarnaion of vishnu, give mankind, a set of codes that sets a sort of discriminative rules against the weaker sez, and the rigid caste system?

can some1 give an xplanation for this?

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I think the interpretations will really depend on how one defines caste (varna). If we base it solely on birth, it appears to be very discriminatory. But if we accept it as being based on one's inner qualifications (i.e. levels of purity) then it does not seem to be discriminating. Anyone has the opportunity to perform any occupational duty provided they qualify themselves for that duty. And ultimately all duties are for the satisfaction of Lord Vishnu. Just because a sweeper isn't allowed to perform a surgery operation does not mean he is being unfairly discriminated against. If he qualifies himself through study, practice, and certification, he can also perform surgeries. But until then he has no right to perform such activities.

[theist]

Originally posted by jndas:

Anyone has the opportunity to perform any occupational duty provided they qualify themselves for that duty. And ultimately all duties are for the satisfaction of Lord Vishnu. Just because a sweeper isn't allowed to perform a surgery operation does not mean he is being unfairly discriminated against. If he qualifies himself through study, practice, and certification, he can also perform surgeries. But until then he has no right to perform such activities.

Qualifying takes an open educational system that allows those on the bottom the right to try to raise up to their full potential.

 

Things in this realm will never be equal.However there should be no prohibitions on someone of a lower station obtaining the necessary training to advance.

 

Also we must remember that our present stations were earned in the past lives.

 

 

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by theist:

Qualifying takes an open educational system that allows those on the bottom the right to try to raise up to their full potential.

 

Things in this realm will never be equal.However there should be no prohibitions on someone of a lower station obtaining the necessary training to advance.

 

Also we must remember that our present stations were earned in the past lives.

 

Excellent. Great acaryas like Ramanujacarya, Srila Prabhupad etc., gave that oppurtunity to everyone so that they can qualify themselves and rise. When a smriti says that molten lead should be poured into the ears of those who even inadvertantly listen to them, then we are denying oppurtunities.

 

For example, Srila Prabhupad occasionally quotes the vedic samhitas and upanishads [which are part of the vedas as samhitas are], even while talking to shudra audience. In fact, those tapes are distributed to everyone. If we take Manu seriously, then SP was wrong. I would rather think as follows:

 

There once existed a MS that was bonafide. It has been quoted by the acaryas. But, to take every line of today's MS as authentic doesn't gel. Did SP ever say that every line of today's MS is authentic? I have never come across any king in history deploying MS as his code. So, why do we presume a continuous tradition?

 

Sha quoted many vedic verses that avocate non-discrimination. And that the vedas be listened to by all. So, I am more inclined to believe that MS injunctions that go against the shruti are interpolations.

 

J N Das gave a nice anology of sweeper and surgeon. I agree that vedic recitation requires qualifications which must be acquired. Are those birth based are guna based? Second, why does it proscribe somebody listening to the vedic recitation?

 

 

[devan]

the Code of Manu states, "In childhood a female must be subject to her father, in youth to her husband, then to her sons; a woman must never be independent. There is no God on earth for a woman than her husband.....She must on the death of her husband allow herself to be burnt alive on the same funeral pyre. That everyone will praise her virtue."

 

this is a verse from the manu smriti. can some1 explain y woman is portrayed in such a manner. especially the last line which actually is SATI, which has been abolished in india now, since it was one of the biggest social evils to exist in the society

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by devan:

the Code of Manu states, "In childhood a female must be subject to her father, in youth to her husband, then to her sons; a woman must never be independent. There is no God on earth for a woman than her husband.....She must on the death of her husband allow herself to be burnt alive on the same funeral pyre. That everyone will praise her virtue."

 

this is a verse from the manu smriti. can some1 explain y woman is portrayed in such a manner. especially the last line which actually is SATI, which has been abolished in india now, since it was one of the biggest social evils to exist in the society

Arjuna tells in BG that if the war took place, women will be without protection and cause varna sankara or unwanted population. This shows that women were not forced to perform Sati. There was always a likelihood of them committing adultery after the death of their husbands. But a woman who committed Sati was considered virtuous. For an honourable person dishonour is worse than death. A woman without protection would have to live at the mercy of the society and it is hard to say if she will be able to remain chaste. It was also considered that widowhood is due to one's past karma. Instead of incurring more karma for the mere maintainence of the body, one gets rid of all the karma by offering the body in fire.

 

I am ready to agree with all these arguments under just one condition. Can some one knowledgeable let me know which section of the Vedas contain the mantras to be chanted during performance of Sati ? In the absence of such mantras, I find it difficult to accept that Sati is a bonafide Vedic truth.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Sati is really too misunderstood to even begin a discussion.

 

I will have to side with one of the previous posters (maybe another thread) who considered it a mystical activity - not a suicide - which was only possible in previous ages (not for the last 5,000 years).

 

[bhaktajoy]

Yes in those days they had powers and could leave body at will.There was no pain involved and combustion was from within not some outside fire.This way wifes followed their husbands where ever they went.There was nothing wrong in the process.But in kali yuga people are not very intelligent thus sati is misunderstood and even some women are murdered in the name of sati.

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by ram:

I am ready to agree with all these arguments under just one condition. Can some one knowledgeable let me know which section of the Vedas contain the mantras to be chanted during performance of Sati ? In the absence of such mantras, I find it difficult to accept that Sati is a bonafide Vedic truth.

Even that is no guarantee that "sati" is approved in the vedas. Even in case of "bride burning" or "dowry deaths", the same funeral hymns are chanted. Does it mean that the vedas recognize "dowry deaths"? Sati will have a shastric basis only if the vedas explicitly approve them. I am not aware of any such approval.

 

Often times, social mores got incorporated into dharma shastras. That doesn't mean that they existed forever. Also, just because an acarya didn't condemn it or even approved it, doesn't mean it has any validity. How many acaryas have condemned "bonded labour", "untouchability" etc., which existed in India for the past 300 years? Hardly any. Do these things have any sanction in the vedas or smritis? They were prevalent, yet, why didn't any acarya criticize them?

 

Acaryas were certainly highly elevated, but except Krishna nobody is perfect. Every acarya had a few defects too. Seeing that doesn't lower him in my eyes. He was a product of the circumstances and was bound by maya to some extent. Often times, he might not have thought it feasible to condemn such widespread deterioration or even might have been an accomplice to that.

 

Real dangers creep in only when we insist that an acarya is all perfect and that every word and action of his is final.

 

 

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by bhaktajoy:

Yes in those days they had powers and could leave body at will.There was no pain involved and combustion was from within not some outside fire.This way wifes followed their husbands where ever they went.There was nothing wrong in the process.But in kali yuga people are not very intelligent thus sati is misunderstood and even some women are murdered in the name of sati.

I have read that the funeral hymns and the marriage hymns of the Rg veda are followed ditto today. This means that they were also burnt. Yes, there were a few cases, the devotee being exalted, where the combustion was from within. Is there anything to suggest that it was the norm?

[ramakrishna]

what will happen if the woman had children and her husband died?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

In the case of Kunti and her co-wife, it was agreed that one should live to raise the children and one should perform sati.

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by karthik_v:

I have read that the funeral hymns and the marriage hymns of the Rg veda are followed ditto today. This means that they were also burnt.

Pl. explain. Does marriage hymns talk about wife being burnt when husband dies ?