The problem of evil - Sankara, Jesus, Buddha and Caitanya

[Guest guest]

One thing that motivates people to seek spiritual knowledge is the problems they face in life. If we just sit down about all the problems in the world, it is so disgusting that you will almost come to believe that there is no good thing in life. The words and visual representations are not enough to represent the experience of suffering.

 

Now spiritual paths/religions try to provide a permanent solution to these problems. Like going to goloka, the heaven in Islam and Christianity, attaining nirvana in Buddhism, brahman in advaitam. But none of them tell us why there is a problem in the first place. If there is a solution, why is that solution not universal ? Sankara and Buddha negate the material world and all its attendant problems. While this philosphically logical, it does not help for a hungry man to know that his hunger is ultimately an illusion. The Testaments claim it is the work of Satan but does not answer where the Devil got its power and freedom from given the Lord is all powerful and all merciful. The vaishnavites try to answer this by saying the jiva misuses its independance. But does not explain why it does so and why not the Lord intervene for the good of the jiva.

 

While all religions give the idea of ideal state that is eternal, science plays the game differently. It says that we are improving the situation. One day, we will conquer death, we will travel back in time and make all times golden. For now be satisfied with the little goodies we offer.

 

Why is the problem of evil so difficult to solve ???

[theist]

Originally posted by ram:

The vaishnavites try to answer this by saying the jiva misuses its independance. But does not explain why it does so and why not the Lord intervene for the good of the jiva.

 

Why the jiva misuses its independence is a question each jiva must answer for itself."Why did I misuse my independence"?

 

That ball always lands back in my side of the court.If there is some external reason then that negates the term independence.

 

This whole material manifestation can be seen as a place of reformation and therefore an intervention by the Lord.One that is so cleverly designed that it still allows for the jiva to have say in its destiny.

 

Well my two shillings are now spent.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Lets say you find yourself sitting in the hot sun,sweating profusely,and being very uncomfortable.

Nearby the ocean is beckoning you to jump in and refresh yourself.

But all you do is sit there and complain about the heat.

This is the problem.

The solution to your problem is at hand,but you focus on the problem instead of the solution.

 

The fact is the solution is there,easy for you to enjoy..why sit in the heat and meditate on the thing that is making you uncomfortable?

 

[Sarasvati]

If Lord intervened, then it wouldn't really be freedom. It would be something like fundamentalist Islam.

 

Beauty of vaishnavism is that we are truly free. We acknowledge that we (yes, we - not Jesus or some profet) is responsible for our own actions.

 

Of course, it is sad that the world is going in a bad way, but we do what we can. We do care about Mother Earth, and don't claim that it is all an illusion, yet at the same time our goal is our home, the spiritual world. We quest for the perfect world because we come from the perfect world.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by theist:

That ball always lands back in my side of the court.If there is some external reason then that negates the term independence.

 

This whole material manifestation can be seen as a place of reformation and therefore an intervention by the Lord.One that is so cleverly designed that it still allows for the jiva to have say in its destiny.

 

 

A vaishnava feels compassion for the fallen souls. It is by the mercy of the Lord that a devotee who surrenders to Lord attains him. Why dont the Lord give the mercy to every jIva unconditionally?

 

Originally posted by Shiva :

The fact is the solution is there,easy for you to enjoy..why sit in the heat and meditate on the thing that is making you uncomfortable?

 

Why is there a problem against His will ? Why does He not give me the impetus to run to the ocean ? You may say I dont have the sincerity. But then He can remove my ignorance. Why dont He ?

 

Originally posted by Sarawati:

If Lord intervened, then it wouldn't really be freedom. It would be something like fundamentalist Islam.

Beauty of vaishnavism is that we are truly free. We acknowledge that we (yes, we - not Jesus or some profet) is responsible for our own actions.

 

Is freedom more important than happiness ? Nobody is anyway free. The Lord can let us have freedom but give us the knowledge so that there is no misuse. Is He not all powerful ?

[Gauracandra]

Is it possible to have good without evil? Think of things atleast relatively. Suppose everyone looked like Cindy Crawford (I mean for women, for guys pick Tom Cruise). Would ugliness disappear? or would it be relative. Would we have "ugly" Tom Cruises (he does have a big nose if you get a side view) or would we all say everyone is beautiful. I guess there can be an absolute evil, and an absolute good. But then everything in between must be some gradation I would think. So they would need each other. As someone else has pointed out, unless we can exercise our free will, what is the meaning of free will.

 

[This message has been edited by Gauracandra (edited 06-21-2002).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

Is it possible to have good without evil?

[This message has been edited by Gauracandra (edited 06-21-2002).]

But there is no evil in vaikuntha.

 

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

As someone else has pointed out, unless we can exercise our free will, what is the meaning of free will.

 

Is freedom more important than happiness ? Anyway, no body is really free. Ignorance is the cause of misuse of freedom. Then is it not desirable that the Lord preclude this ignorance in every one ?

[Sarasvati]

Is freedom more important than happiness? Some people would say so. The black slaves in the American past might have had nice masters (well, some of them) but they still longed to be free.

 

The main thing is, love cannot be forced. It HAS to grow out of freedom. If we were forced by Krishna to accept him, we would be like unhappy wives who do everything to their husband, but don't really love him.

 

Anyway, this is off my point, but Gaurachandra: who wants to look like Cindy Crawford, anyway? She's got a mole on her face.

[Bhaktavasya]

 

Some comments on the 'beautiful and rich people' as some kind of perfection state. When we think about it, the lives of the Hollywood/super-model crowd GENERALLY (I hear Robert Redford is opposed to going under the knife to smooth out the wrinkles, remodel the nose,etc)must be filled with anxiety and paranoia. Security alone must cost in a day what a low-income person has to live on for the month. If you have children there's always the fear of kidnappers; all it takes is one crazed 'fan' whose goal in life is to be with you even if it means knocking you off to get his/her name in the paper beside your's. If you happen to be single, or between marriages, Maya 'in the form of a beautiful woman or man' (as we know Maya is very complex, 'ultimately' She's just doing Her job to get us all back to Godhead)will pull every trick in the book, the beguiling smile, the 'come into my world and heavenly delights await you' hypnotic glances. Meanwhile, his or her eyes may be glazed over not out of love for you, but love for the vision of all that money he/she will be spending in the future. The beguiling smile actually meant "Two or three years with you, dear, and I'm rich for the rest of my life after I take your butt to court for, I don't know, irreconcilable differences? I hate your taste in music, but I'm not going to tell you now, am I."

 

Beauty, as it's been said, is only skin deep and temporairy as a beautiful rose in full bloom. Spiritual beauty lasts and shines through on the face of an even not so asthetically beautiful person. Not that good-looking people can't be beautiful on the inside too, but you get the point.

 

In conclusion I'd say that the very rich and famous, the destitute and forgotten, and all the shades in between have their particular brand of the 3-fold miseries to contend with in life. I'd say the cycle (wheel)of samsara begins to come to a halt when we stop desiring to be rich, famous, beautiful, or even poor (if you're rich and wonder too much about what it would be like to be poor). That why praying for, desiring to be 'engaged' in Their service birth after birth is soooo liberating.

 

 

[radharani]

I know this may be somewhat outlandish, but is it mentioned in any of the Vedic texts that men came to earth from Mars (a long long time ago), and this is where evil originated, in another materialistic civilization such as this one (on Mars)? Then women were introduced to men to try to reduce/eliminate the evil?

 

[This message has been edited by radharani (edited 06-22-2002).]

[theist]

Originally posted by radharani:

I know this may be somewhat outlandish, but is it mentioned in any of the Vedic texts that men came to earth from Mars (a long long time ago), and this is where evil originated, in another materialistic civilization such as this one (on Mars)? Then women were introduced to men to try to reduce/eliminate the evil?

 

 

Close but you seem to have it reversed.Don't be embarrassed,ladies often do that.

 

Actually women came first to earth from the planet Evenus a long long time ago.That is where evil originated.

 

Women were here without man and so indulged in all sorts of evil practices imported from Evenus. Man was sent to try and help woman to turn away from evil but instead fell for her temptations and came under her spell.

 

That is how kali-yuga began.This can only be rectified by women completely submitting herself to the will of man.When this proper order is established it will then be known as the golden age and evil will be no more on Earth.

 

 

[radhe]

There is nothing like 'Evil' really.. Everything is Krishna.. Krishna is there everywhere..playing with himself.. The reason for pain , suffering is ignorance. Once one grows into a divine conciousness, he becomes completely surrendered ..lo.. everything is god... All this might seem to be vain theory.. to the "mind".. But this becomes the reality to the person who goes beyond the mental conciousness....

 

Man, a mental being has evolved from the animal. As per sri aurobindo, a being with "truth" conciousness will eventually evolve out of man. As per his philosophy, God is involved in matter.. but has manifested himself in an ignorant state. In the process of rediscovering himself, came Plants, Animals. & finally man.. But man is not the end.. Man has to and will outgrow into a being with "truth" conciousness....

[Guest guest]

 

You guys are kidding right,your posts seem like they came from uranus.

 

Evenus,mars? what a country!

Whats next urantia?

[theist]

Uranus?Hmmm....Did he mean it that way?No couldn't have.

 

Evil is an interesting quetsion.Krsna is all good in His actions.Yet the potentiality for evil must have come from Him as he is the ultimate source.Hmmm...

 

What would be a good one sentence definition for evil I wonder?

[Guest guest]

 

A one sentence definition of evil....

 

MTV reality shows!

 

another one....

 

Self righteous people trying to force their

puritanical self deluded conceptions and fascist political agendas on people because they believe freedom is another word for satan and also that enjoying life is satanic and only through self denial prayer and false piety can society be redeemed from evil that is everywhere influencing everyone who is not in compliance with their childish cynical self righteous mindset...whew

[radharani]

Hmm . . .maybe you're right. I suppose now I should look for someone to submit to . . .

[Guest guest]

My definition of evil is something which causes harm. Every thing that is there is Krishna. But this realization is not there for us. For a pure devotee there is no evil may be. But it is there for all others. So why does the Lord allow it ?

[Guest guest]

 

to radharani

 

yeah baby!

 

 

[Gauracandra]

But there is no evil in vaikuntha.

This is true. Thats why the material world could be the other side. There is no evil in Vaikuntha, but there is evil in this world. So we get both sides.

 

 

[gHari]

Perhaps:

 

Good = That which pleases Krsna.

 

Bad = That which does not please Krsna.

 

Evil = That which displeases Krsna.

 

Or in a word they could be compared to devotion, apathy, or enmity.

 

I fear this takes us back to the question of why the atma begins to associate with maya, this temporary anxiety of material existence.

 

Some evil (like Jaya and Vijaya) exists to please the Lord in pastime. Some likely exists to provide negative reinforcement karmic reactions for naughty jivas. Attachment to the evil natures of previous animal existences would likely explain things like flesh-eating.

 

Original sin? Starting at a paramecium, we are likely to develop numerous non-devotional habits. Perhaps that is all planned in the progression through the eight million lower species, just as we laid dormant for eons, unmanifest, to build up our attachment to the universe of maya.

 

When we speculated that the atma is enjoying bliss right now, while my false temporary internet self has been labouring down here seemingly forever really made me mad at my Self. Why didn't he help me out? Sheesh! Just not knowing that I would exist forever - what a hell that was! Now we have Krsna and the Vedas and sadhus and gurus; and it's not all that bad. But so much grief before.

 

But it's all Krsna's mercy - anxiety, good, evil, stubbed toes - everything. We have the most kind and wise friend in the Lord.

[bhaktajoy]

yeah as we go higher and higher there is less negative thinking and at last upon reaching the spiritual world we are free.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by gHari:

When we speculated that the atma is enjoying bliss right now, while my false temporary internet self has been labouring down here seemingly forever really made me mad at my Self. Why didn't he help me out? Sheesh!

Prabhu, does it not make us mad at Krishna that He, the Self of all has not saved the selfs that are suffering from time memorial ?

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 06-26-2002).]

[gHari]

Hell no. I could never be mad at Krsna.

 

I know it's my own damn fault.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by gHari:

Hell no. I could never be mad at Krsna.

 

I know it's my own damn fault.

What is the cause of your fault ?

 

 

[theist]

I've tried blaming Krsna.It doesn't work.He just keeps smiling and looking beautiful.