The problem of evil - Sankara, Jesus, Buddha and Caitanya

[theist]

So then are we to conclude that animals are not suffering just because they are too dull to perceive their state as one of suffering?

[radharani]

I dont see animals as dull at all. I see them as opressed.

[theist]

Oppressed yes.Dull yes.

 

radharani,Of those animals that are roaming free from human interference, do you imagine they are out there actively trying to raise their consciousness in some way?

 

Consciousness when covered by the material conception can be said to be dulled in varying degrees.

 

My consciousness is also quite dull.I meant no offense to those embodied in animal forms.

[gHari]

Originally posted by ram:

Why didn't you know the corrective procedure was so involved and painful ? Why didn't He let us know that if we didn't love Him, we will face pain ?

 

That was a joke. I have no idea why this false ego developed. I'm okay with that. I am not expecting my intellect to rescue me. I expect it only to maintain a humble perspective of my insignificance, and my complete dependence on Sri Krsna. It was Krsna who said that to those who constantly worship Him with love and devotion He gives the understanding by which they can come to Him. That is my only escape route.

 

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 06-29-2002).]

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by karthik_v:

I too agree with you that first men have to follow the rules to perfection and then the women have to follow them..

I strongly disagree. The spirit soul, whether in a male or female body, has to follow in the footsteps of the damsels of Vraja and submit to the sweet will of the Lord. Krishna is the Father and true Husband of the soul (as Bhaktivinode called Him)yet He is submissive to Love alone. Similarly, we parts and parcels can never (truly) surrender to anything less.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by gHari:

That was a joke. I have no idea why this false ego developed. I'm okay with that. I am not expecting my intellect to rescue me. I expect it only to maintain a humble perspective of my insignificance, and my complete dependence on Sri Krsna. It was Krsna who said that to those who constantly worship Him with love and devotion He gives the understanding by which they can come to Him. That is my only escape route.

 

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 06-29-2002).]

Devotion is beyond debate. Hari Hari Bol.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

I strongly disagree. The spirit soul, whether in a male or female body, has to follow in the footsteps of the damsels of Vraja and submit to the sweet will of the Lord. Krishna is the Father and true Husband of the soul (as Bhaktivinode called Him)yet He is submissive to Love alone. Similarly, we parts and parcels can never (truly) surrender to anything less.

 

 

Devotion to Krishna does not exclude respect to elders. Ofcourse, in modern times one cannot be dogmatic because men are not qualified. But one who is devoted, when the opportunity is available, will show respect to husband, father etc. By following these injunctions one can relish the nectar because these injunctions come from the Lord.

 

 

[radharani]

Originally posted by theist:

Oppressed yes.Dull yes.

 

radharani,Of those animals that are roaming free from human interference, do you imagine they are out there actively trying to raise their consciousness in some way?

 

 

I see animals as children in a way, they need to be nurtured and cared for, in order for their intelligence to develop. Belief is a powerful thing and believing animals are unintelligent purely instinctual creatures continues that cycle and creates opression. I see the negative qualites in animals as reflections of negative qualites in humans, not the other way around.

 

When humans are forced into survival mode they become instinctual creatures too.

[radharani]

Originally posted by radharani:

I see animals as children in a way, they need to be nurtured and cared for, in order for their intelligence to develop.

 

To bring them out of the opression; I dont think animals were originally dull-minded; we just lost our ability to communicate with them since they dont communicate verbally; and humans started seeing them as unintelligent, when it was really humans who became unintelligent (only capable of communicating with each other through language).

 

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by radharani:

To bring them out of the opression; I dont think animals were originally dull-minded; we just lost our ability to communicate with them since they dont communicate verbally; and humans started seeing them as unintelligent, when it was really humans who became unintelligent (only capable of communicating with each other through language).

 

 

Breakthrough thinking. We dont have the technology to build a spider web and we call spiders stupid. We must be joking!

 

 

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by ram:

Devotion to Krishna does not exclude respect to elders. Ofcourse, in modern times one cannot be dogmatic because men are not qualified. But one who is devoted, when the opportunity is available, will show respect to husband, father etc. By following these injunctions one can relish the nectar because these injunctions come from the Lord.

 

 

Lord Caitanya said to offer respects to everyone without seeking respect for oneself. If everyone accepted this instruction then there is no problem with offering respect to one's elders, husband and one's wife. Agreed?

 

[theist]

Originally posted by ram:

Breakthrough thinking. We dont have the technology to build a spider web and we call spiders stupid. We must be joking!

 

 

Intelligence is exhibited everywhere.But it's Krsna's and not the spiders.Spiders are stupid.

 

 

[gHari]

Krsna bestows creatures with varieties of acintya-sakti, inconceivable powers.

 

The spider can spin a web. I cannot.

 

The bird can soar in the sky. I cannot.

 

The fish can live in the ocean. I cannot.

 

I can see Krsna. Most of them cannot, except for the very fortunate, like the dog who was taught to chant by Lord Gauranga, Himself.

 

I must chant Krsna's Names loudly so the animals and plants will benefit. The tigers and deer in the jungle kissed when they heard Sri Caitanya sing Krsna's Names, forgetting their natural enmity, overpowered by their true identities as spirit souls. Haridas Thakura, speaking to Lord Caitanya, said that the loud chanting of the Mahamantra will purify even the animals and creepers who hear it.

 

I sat down beside a cat this winter and began chanting the Panca Tattva mantra, the names of Their Lordships Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Nityananda Prabhu, and Their most intimate associates. Days later the cat pranced up to me, as though proud to be my friend. Completely ignoring the busy gathering, she bowed down before me, then sat at my feet very elegantly and stared at feet. Then she raised her eyes to mine and said "Meow." I considered her to be the most elevated jiva in the room of red-necks.

 

All glories to the Names of Sri Krsna.

 

Hari Bol

[gHari]

Originally posted by gHari:

[...] Then she raised her eyes to mine and said "Meow." [...]

Yes, I too almost expected her to say "Hare Krsna". She was that classy.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by gHari:

Yes, I too almost expected her to say "Hare Krsna". She was that classy.

Once I was living with a devotee on this forum. We used to have chanting retreats near a pond. The ducks there used to get attracted to his feet.

 

 

[pete1]

Why has god set up a system where one is forced to surrender at the end, brought to his knees by suffering ?

 

Isnt surrender supposed to be voluntary and out of love.How can I love a god who sets up a system like this ?

[radharani]

because krsna wants to help everyone to be more like him, in whatever respects he or she is able to handle; if one experiences suffering, he is unlikely to inflict it or cause it if he attains some of the powers or knowledge of krsna. he doesnt want to rule forever and ever and be the only one to enjoy creating,etc (although i'm sure he will be ruling for a very very very very long time before anyone comes that close to his wisdom, so it probably isnt even worth discussing . . . but i do think the suffering is meant to show us what we ourselves are capable of doing, (in part).just my view on the subject, just a theory. it's like creator-boot-camp.

[theist]

Originally posted by pete1:

Why has god set up a system where one is forced to surrender at the end, brought to his knees by suffering ?

 

Isnt surrender supposed to be voluntary and out of love.How can I love a god who sets up a system like this ?

We don't have to surrender in love to Krsna.We can try to stay afloat in heaven for as long as we can or we can go to sleep in His aura for as long as we like.

 

What we can't do is have the spirtual side of the kingdom of God with God.

 

 

[pete1]

I am totally stuck with this question, because the suffering experienced by some people of this world is so intense and gruesome. For excample just remember pictures of the holocaust during the 2end worldwar in germany, they are totally grotesque. Just think of the agony, the pain, the tortures these people experienced and the daubting questions of god being really all loving and full of mercy appear automatically.

 

This is a reward and punishing system created by god allowing the souls to really dig themselfes into deep shit, or become kings, without the souls really knowing what they are doing. That in itself is a cruel part of the whole thing.

 

Its like a father who knows very well that there is an open fire in the living room (material world) and he still allows his baby into the room, knowing in advance what will happen. Then he leaves the kid to itself and only ones in a blue moon enters the room to show himself. Then finally when the kid is all brused, burned and dented he demands from the kid to love him totally before he allows it to leave the room.

 

I also got kids, but even in my wildest dreams, I could not think up such a situation for them.

 

The answer of karma is cold and unemotional it might explain something, but not this.

[pete1]

In the of Srila Bhaktivinode is written, that for God to show real mercy, the pain and the suffering of the soul can not be unreal but factual, so that when the soul finally cries out to God in utter helplesness and dispair caused by endless suffering it is real and therfore gods mercy is also real.

 

Then the union of the soul with god is pleasurable for both and God can enjoy what he can not enjoy in the spiritual world "that is giving his causeless mercy"

 

When I read this I thought "bloody hell !!" thats terrible, the whole thing is a setup by God, involving the suffering of the jivas beyond anyones minds comprehension, only so that he can give his causeless mercy ?????????

 

Cant be...

[pete1]

Sorry, that was from the JIva Dharma by Bhaktivinode.

[syama]

Pete I too am totally stuck with this point.

Someone earlier suggested "if it is too hot jump in the sea, philosophy", this is standard because for a intellectually honest person no religious system or religious philosophy can answer this dilemma thoroughly. In the end it comes down to what makes you happy and if the happiness you are recieving outweighs the 'need to know'spiritual dilemmas, then it no longer matters and one can enjoy his spiritual pursuit.

When you are stuck at a point that prevents your faith from growing on a path your heart is attracted to, and due to this you can't apply anymore faith it is a horribly upsetting and frustrating place to be, I wish you find the answers you need and hope you will enlighten me when you do, but I have exhausted all my enquiries and have found no satisfactory answers, there will always be objections and loopholes within any given answer which is why all religion is based on faith only.

[theist]

No love without free will.Free will has no meaning if there is no alternate course of life to choose from.

 

Good or evil.To serve or exploit.The choice is there.

 

I see it like when a child crys out at night from having a nightmare the parent goes to see what's wrong.Seeing the child in bed still asleep one says "Oh its only a nightmare..." wakes the child, comforts it, and explains it was only a bad dream and its over now, all is well.

 

We are in the midst of a nightmare and need to be awakened.But we still have a operative free will and we wrongly excercise it by remaining asleep and trying to readjust the nightmare in a way that we think will be favorable to us.

 

Why am I suffering this nightmare?Because I choose to remain asleep.

[pete1]

When you are stuck at a point that prevents your faith from growing on a path your heart is attracted to, and due to this you can't apply anymore faith it is a horribly upsetting and frustrating place to be.......

 

 

Thats how it feels, not only that, I have spend 20 years trying to be a devotee, was initiated by Srila Prabhupada. I became desperatly frustraited and ridden with guilt over the years when I realised that I wasnt able to follow properly. I always tried again and again until I finally gave in and accepted my endevours as pointless. I have nothing to show for spiritually and stopped practicing ages ago.

 

The funny thing is that the Hare Krishna mantra repeats itself within my head constantly, cant turn it off at all, first thing in the morning last thing at night, its always there. It doesnt bother me, I just find it funny that wherever I go and whatever I do, it accompanies me constantly.

 

Maybe that is why I still hang arround

[shvu]

 

 

Why didn't you know the corrective procedure was so involved and painful ? Why didn't He let us know that if we didn't love Him, we will face pain ?

There are plenty of people who *love* God and are yet in pain. There are plenty of others who do not think of God at all, and yet are doing just fine. The simple fact is there is no reason/logic behind why some people suffer while some others sail through life with little or no pain. Loving or not loving God has nothing to do with it.

 

To add, you are asking questions for which no one has answers. Rather than making the Gurus and the know-alls uncomfortable, you should stick to simpler questions for which they have masala type answers [viz., Karma, past life, etc, etc]. There are answers to all questions so long as you are content with superificial answers and don't pry deep into the issue.

 

Cheers