Srila Prabhupada's Purport to [i]Srimad Bhagavatam[/i] 4.25.41

[leyh]

 

 

In his purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 4.25.41, Srila Prabhupada wrote:

 

"A man is always famous for his aggression toward a beautiful woman, and such aggression is sometimes considered rape. Although rape is not legally allowed, it is a fact that a woman likes a man who is very expert at rape."

 

There is no doubt in my mind that Srila Prabhupada is a saintly personality and an empowered representative of the Lord.A mundane person or a cheater could not have achieved what Srila Prabhupada has achieevd and is still achieveing --- spreading the holy names to men and women all over the world.

 

Also,I absloutely believe that Srila Prabhupada is not a woman-hater.From reading the many loving accounts of female devotees who have had personal association with Srila Prabhupada --- Govinda dasi,Jadurani dasi,etc. one gets the impression of a loving spiritual master eager only to engage his female (and of course male) disciples in the service of the Supreme Lord.

 

Is there an intelligent and reasonable explanation for the above mentioned excerpt from Srila Prabhupada's purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 4.25.41?

 

I apologize if this post has offended any of the devotees here.In a letter to the late George Harrison,Srila Prabhupada wrote:

 

"Please try to understand this simple philosophy by critical analysis, and I hope by the grace of Krsna you will be a great servant of His in fulfilling His desire that He may be known by His Holy Name in every village and every city all over the world, and thus the people will become happy." (Letter to George Harrison,Los Angeles, 16 February, 1970)

 

As devotees or aspiring devotees,we should not shy away from the hard questions,but ask Krsna to give us the intelligence to solve these questions with critical analysis.I am sure that such an approach would meet with Srila Prabhupada's approval.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 06-30-2002).]

[theist]

Decided I should rethink my post after reading his word choice again.

 

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 06-30-2002).]

[atma]

I always took that passage like women in general prefer an agressive guy sexually, somebody that dominates them, feel like the guy is so smitten by her that he can't control himself and if you hear women talking, in general is like that. When the man doesn't show too much interest in sex the woman may feel ugly, fat, unatractive, etc. She may take it personal. Of course we are not talking of devotees here, where the goals are completely different. If you by chance see one of those dates shows on TV the all thing is about sexual attraction and how the women dress very provocative to seduce the men and how the guys go for it.

I'm talking here about sex between consenting adults.

 

See it in the context that Prabhupada is saying it too, about the story of King Puranjana and all the thing that is going on with sexual desires. The girl is chaste and Puranjana has to be agressive but both of them are in accord.

 

Not to be misunderstood here, I'm sure that no woman will like an expert rapist but I always took Srila Prabhupada's words in the way I tried to explain above.

[suryaz]

Originally posted by atma:

I always took that passage like women in general prefer an agressive guy sexually, somebody that dominates them, feel like the guy is so smitten by her that he can't control himself and if you hear women talking, in general is like that. When the man doesn't show too much interest in sex the woman may feel ugly, fat, unatractive, etc. She may take it personal. Of course we are not talking of devotees here, where the goals are completely different. If you by chance see one of those dates shows on TV the all thing is about sexual attraction and how the women dress very provocative to seduce the men and how the guys go for it.

I'm talking here about sex between consenting adults.

 

See it in the context that Prabhupada is saying it too, about the story of King Puranjana and all the thing that is going on with sexual desires. The girl is chaste and Puranjana has to be agressive but both of them are in accord.

 

Not to be misunderstood here, I'm sure that no woman will like an expert rapist but I always took Srila Prabhupada's words in the way I tried to explain above.

Atma,

 

You are way off any kind of moral content, Be careful of your use of language.

 

For further reference see:

http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000708.html

 

 

 

[leyh]

Originally posted by atma:

I always took that passage like women in general prefer an agressive guy sexually, somebody that dominates them, feel like the guy is so smitten by her that he can't control himself and if you hear women talking, in general is like that. When the man doesn't show too much interest in sex the woman may feel ugly, fat, unatractive, etc. She may take it personal. Of course we are not talking of devotees here, where the goals are completely different. If you by chance see one of those dates shows on TV the all thing is about sexual attraction and how the women dress very provocative to seduce the men and how the guys go for it.

I'm talking here about sex between consenting adults.

 

See it in the context that Prabhupada is saying it too, about the story of King Puranjana and all the thing that is going on with sexual desires. The girl is chaste and Puranjana has to be agressive but both of them are in accord.

 

Not to be misunderstood here, I'm sure that no woman will like an expert rapist but I always took Srila Prabhupada's words in the way I tried to explain above.

Atma:

 

I agree with you.I think that Srila Prabhupada was simply saying in the purport that women liked sexually aggressive men.Maybe Srila Prabhupada's understanding and use of the word "rape" were based on a culture different from us.Also,the purport has to be taken in its proper context.

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by leyh:

Atma:

 

I agree with you.I think that Srila Prabhupada was simply saying in the purport that women liked sexually aggressive men.Maybe Srila Prabhupada's understanding and use of the word "rape" were based on a culture different from us.Also,the purport has to be taken in its proper context.

Srila Prabhupada is using it in the context mentioned by atma in my opinion also. The society at large will have sex going on. It is healthy for men to be masculine and women to be feminine. Redefinition of these roles has reality but in fantasy and leads to loss of mental control.

 

We should realize that Srila Prabhupada is teaching not only to renunciates but also society at large.

[Avinash]

Atma,

 

You are way off any kind of moral content, Be careful of your use of language.

 

I do not see anything wrong in Atma ji's usage of language. I am not saying that I agree with everything she has written. She has voiced an opinion. She has mentioned how she understands what SP was trying to say. May be that SP was trying to say that or may be he was trying to say something different. But, in any case, there is nothing immoral in what Atma ji has written.

 

[Yashoda_dd]

Women and men have different roles: women are ones that have to take care for the children,and men have to protect and fight against all evil that come in this material world.

 

It is natural that women prefer more aggresive and stronger men, which give them and their children more protection and better situation in the society.

 

We should not forget that Rukmini actually asked Sri Krishna to kidnap her. It means Rukmini asked Sri Krishan to "rape" her.

 

Srila Prabhupada, when speaking about sex, does not speak only those few minutes of intercourse between two bodies: he means the bigger picture. He is not speaking about details about having sex when people use different sick ways of sex, which make their own brain into soup.

 

I also spoke with Jadurani devi, and I read her book about life as a daughter of Srila Prabhupada. He never, ever took his lady disciples to be oridinary women, because they are not.

 

Once you look into Srila Prabhupada's heart, you are no longer member of this world.

 

 

[mahak]

Terminology only. Youll see in the classic sense, rape is often used in place of agressive sex or even certain marriages where the man takes by force. Bottacelli has a painting called Rape of Europa, and it is simply depicting the passion of sex life.

 

Rape is used differently today than in the classical sense. We see rape as a hate crime devoid of sex life. It is anger produced violence, not lust produced. Lust is satisfied very easily and is not violent, but when it turns to anger, this is when loss of intelligence takes place.

 

I am certain that wording would be quite different today, as most of today's crimes called rape have nothing to do with sex life, rather involves beating and even murder, which is never enjoyed by a sane man or woman.

[theist]

I think along the lines that atma wrote also.Although I find the phrase "not legally allowed" curious.

 

The fact that women like to be "taken" is understood.

 

And remember Prabhupada has used the word prostitute in place of our term girlfriend.

 

Just a semantic glich.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by mahak:

Terminology only. Youll see in the classic sense, rape is often used in place of agressive sex or even certain marriages where the man takes by force. Bottacelli has a painting called Rape of Europa, and it is simply depicting the passion of sex life.

 

Rape is used differently today than in the classical sense. We see rape as a hate crime devoid of sex life. It is anger produced violence, not lust produced. Lust is satisfied very easily and is not violent, but when it turns to anger, this is when loss of intelligence takes place.

 

I am certain that wording would be quite different today, as most of today's crimes called rape have nothing to do with sex life, rather involves beating and even murder, which is never enjoyed by a sane man or woman.

 

I never knew this meaning of rape.

 

[kailasa]

**man who is very expert at rape.

 

It is no ordinary rape. Desire man have women, desire women otherwise. Because this is basic desire women SP mention this.

[Avinash]

Why did Prabhupada have to use these words?

[stonehearted]

Originally posted by theist:

The fact that women like to be "taken" is understood.

 

This is a very interesting sentence. First, you posit this attitude as factual. "The idea that women like to be 'taken'" might be more neutral, don't you think? Further, the passive voice in this sentence makes me want to ask, "Understood by whom? By women?" Any women like to comment?

 

[theist]

Originally posted by stonehearted:

This is a very interesting sentence. First, you posit this attitude as factual. "The idea that women like to be 'taken'" might be more neutral, don't you think? Further, the passive voice in this sentence makes me want to ask, "Understood by whom? By women?" Any women like to comment?

Fair enough.But understand "taken" does not mean against ones will as in a predator type rape scenario.

 

I believe 99% of all women are of two minds on this issue.Not that that is contradictory.It's really not.They like the type of man that will provide and show sensitivity in a variety of ways.They also like the type of man that will push them back onto the bed, pull their hair back and just take them.

 

I recently saw the results of a facial study of men where the softer looking men's faces were considered by women to be desirable as providers and life partners whereas the same face drawn with sharper harder edges was desired by the same women for sex.Same face was used mind you with only a slight alteration.

 

I believe part of the problem in relationships is that men don't understand that women really want both characteristics in the same man, not either or.

 

Ladies?Be honest please.

 

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 07-02-2002).]

[Bhaktavasya]

 

In my experience and observations I'd say that women like to be courted but never coerced. Self-confident but not arrogant. Shy and sensitive (really) but not wussy. As for the romantic interplay that goes on between committed lovers, some men prefer the woman to be more aggressive and some ladies like it when the man shows (gently)that he desires her. Contrary to popular myth, many women are not turned on by the lusty, controrted face of a man approaching her, even if it is her spouse. We are turned on by a face that is soft with amourous affection.

 

 

[theist]

Contorted face?No one, from either sex,likes contorted faces.

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by theist:

Contorted face?No one, from either sex,likes contorted faces.

Didn't you ask for a woman's opinion on being 'taken'? In all fairness, I've never been confronted with a twisted, lust-filled face of a woman wanting to aggressively overpower me for sex. But you're right, love and lust according to Caitanya Caritamrita is like the difference between gold and iron. Some people of either sex get off on lust while those who are won over by love and kindness are repelled by it.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Bhaktavasya (edited 07-03-2002).]

[theist]

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

Didn't you ask for a woman's opinion on being 'taken'? In all fairness, I've never been confronted with a twisted, lust-filled face of a woman wanting to aggressively overpower me for sex. But you're right, love and lust according to Caitanya Caritamrita is like the difference between gold and iron. Some people of either sex get off on lust while those who are won over by love and kindness are repelled by it.

 

 

Yes, I echoed stonehearteds request for the womans viewpoint.

 

I think this world has at least a 99% to 1% lust to love ratio.

 

I also think that people are of two minds on many subjects.The mind is a field of conflicting desires thoughts and emotions.Women are not exempt, nor are men.

 

Nothing more from me on this one.

 

Haribol

 

 

[kailasa]

**Why did Prabhupada have to use these words?

 

Their desire rape, but - very expert. May be many not know about this, may be.

[Guest guest]

No woman would like sexual violence because the man is harmful in this case.

 

Women enjoy aggressive sex but the level of aggression depends on their nature. An expert who is interested in sex with women takes her from one level to the next transgressing always but one step at a time. Some times the steps may be large but always some thing that a woman can eventually adjust to. But the success depends on palpable love the man has for her. Also no one likes even sexual aggression if it is meant to demean her or only to assert masculine"sense of superiority".

 

A mere act of rape can never be attractive to women because

1. it stays as a nightmare in her life

2. it prevents any kind of intimacy in future

3. it devalues her in the society and thus she is punished twice

4. in some cultures she becomes unsuitable for a worthy marriage

 

The only context in which rape will be enjoyable to a woman is when a man of her dreams enjoys aggressive sex with her out of over whelming love and attraction for her followed by lifelong commitment.

 

The context in which SP discusses rape as enjoyable is one in Calcutta, where a man rapes the woman. Then the lawyer tricks her into admitting that she enjoyed it. One may say how can some one trick a woman in to admitting enjoyment if she actually suffered. That is the complex nature of sex, rape and courts. This is how one could trick.

 

Day 1 ::::

L : When your husband kisses you, do you close your eyes ?

W : Yes

L : What do you think of ?

W : Some times nothing. I just get involved in the situation.

L : Without feeling shy, tell me. You enjoy the sensation ?

W : Yes.

 

Day 10 ::::

(The woman forgets the discussion on day 1)

Lawyer : When he attacked you were you scared ?

Woman : Yes

L : Did you close your eyes ?

W : Yes

L : When he forcibly kissed you, what did you think of ?

W : I could not think of anything. I was carried by the scene.

L : Did you experience the sensation of kiss ?

W : Yes

 

The lawyer makes a case by saying that the woman enjoyed the kiss. And that her suffering now is only the imposition of the societal fear. As she enjoyed, the rapist cannot be convicted of actually raping. It was only consentful sex between two adults.

 

I think SP makes a mistake by buying in to old wine psychology and very wrong use of words. We dont expect even a pure devotee to be an expert in Qantum Mechanics. We need not expect thourough understanding of psychology either. Some of these statements are to be rejected as relative statements. But dogmatic followers tend to agree with the guru word for word transforming sanatana dharma in to a mere cult.

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 07-05-2002).]

[Janardana das]

" Although rape is not legally allowed, it is a fact that a woman likes a man who is very expert at rape."

 

I believe only a woman could truly understand this purport, and to do so she would have to be completely honest.

 

There are some aspects to rape that are totally brutal and heinous, and i can't imagine any woman liking it. This is why the purport is so confusing to me.

 

However when Prabhupada speaks of a "prostitute," his definition is slightly different from that of the modern day perception of a prostitute, so maybe his definition of "rape" is of the same or similar difference.

 

I suppose we need to understand what is meant by "expert at rape."

 

Love

 

Jan Ardena.