Women (according to Manu & others)

[Sarasvati]

"Where women are honored there the gods are pleased; but where they are not honored no sacred rite yields rewards," declares Manu Smriti (III.56) a text on social conduct.

 

"Women must be honored and adorned by their fathers, brothers, husbands and brothers-in-law, who desire their own welfare." (Manu Smriti III, 55)

 

" Where the female relations live in grief, the family soon wholly perishes; but that family where they are not unhappy ever prospers." (Manu Smriti III, 57).

 

"The houses on which female relations, not being duly honored, pronounce a curse, perish completely as if destroyed by magic." (Manu Smriti III, 58)

 

" Hence men who seek their own welfare, should always honor women on holidays and festivals with gifts of ornaments, clothes, and dainty food." (Manu Smriti III, 59)

 

Sir Monier Monier-Williams (1860-1888) Indologist and head of the Oxford's Boden Chair, wrote: "Indian wives often possess greater influence than wives of Europeans." He is not a true Hindu who does not regard a woman's body as sacred as the temple of God. He is an outcast who touches a woman's body with irreverence, hatred or anger."

 

"A woman's body," says Manu the law giver, "must not be struck hard, even with a flower, because it is sacred." It is for this reason that the Hindus do not allow capital punishment for women.

 

The idea of equality was most forcibly expressed in the Rig Veda (Book 5, hymn 61. verse 8). The commentator explains this passage thus: "The wife and husband, being the equal halves of one substance, are equal in every respect; therefore both should join and take equal parts in all work, religious and secular." No other Scripture of the world have ever given to the woman such equality with the man as the Vedas of the Hindus. The Old Testament, the Zend-Avesta and others, have made woman the scapegoat for all the crimes committed by man. The Old Testament, in describing the creation of woman and the fall of man, has established the idea that woman was created for man's pleasure; consequently her duty was to obey him implicitly. It makes her an instrument in the hands of Satan for the temptation and fall of the holy man with whom she was first enjoying the felicity of paradise.

 

The 126th hymn of the first book of the Rig Veda was revealed by a Hindu woman whose name was Romasha; the 179 hymn of the same book was by Lopamudra, another inspired Hindu woman. There are a dozen name of woman revealers of the Vedic wisdom, such as Visvavara, Shashvati, Gargi, Maitreyi, Apala, Ghosha, and Aditi, who instructed Indra, one of the Devas, in the higher knowledge of Brahman, the Universal Spirit. Everyone of them lived the ideal life of spirituality, being untouched by the things of the world. They are called in Sanskrit Brahmavadinis, the speakers and revealers of Brahman.

 

When Sankaracharya, the great commentator of the Vedanta, was discussing this philosophy with another philosopher, a Hindu lady, well versed in all the Scriptures, was requested to act as umpire. It is the special injuction of the Vedas that no married man shall perform any religious rite, ceremony, or sacrifice without being joined in by his wife; the wife is considered a partaker and partner in the spiritual life of her husband; she is called, in Sanskrit, Sahadharmini, "spiritual helpmate." This idea is very old, as old as the Hindu nation.

 

In the whole religious history of the world a second Sita will not be found. Her life was unique. She is worshipped as an Incarnation of God. India is the only country where prevails a belief that God incarnates in the form of a woman as well as in that of a man. In the Mahabharata we read the account of Sulabha, the great woman Yogi, who came to the court of King Janaka and showed wonderful powers and wisdom, which she had acquired through the practice of Yoga. This shows that women were allowed to practice Yoga. As in religion, Hindu woman of ancient times enjoyed equal rights and privileges with men, so in secular matters she had equal share and equal power with them. From the Vedic age women in India have had the same right to possess property as men; they could go to the courts of justice, plead their own cases, and ask for the protection of the law. Those who have read the famous Hindu drama called Shakuntala, know that Shakuntala pleaded her own case and claimed her rights in the court of King Dushyanata. Similar instance are mentioned in the 10th book of the Rig Veda. As early as 2000 B.C. Hindu women were allowed to go to the battle fields to fight against enemies. Sarama, one of the most powerful women of her day, was sent by her husband in search of robbers. She discovered their hiding place and then destroyed them. (source: India And Her People - By Swami Abhedananda - p. 255-267).

 

Women must be honored and adorned by their father, brothers, husbands, and brother-in-law who desire great good fortune. Where women, verily are honored, there the gods rejoice; where, however, they are not honored, there all sacred rites prove fruitless. Where the female relations live in grief -- that family soon perishes completely; where, however, they do not suffer from any grievance -- that family always prospers. ..

 

Her father protects her in childhood, her husband protects her in youth, her sons protect her in old age. The father who does not give away his daughter in marriage at the proper time is censurable; censurable is the husband who does not approach his wife in due season; and after the husband is dead, the son, verily is censurable, who does not protect his mother. Even against the slightest provocations should women be particularly guarded; for unguarded they would bring grief to both the families.

 

(My own understanding is that protection is also a form of service.)

[Sarasvati]

More info on

http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Women_in_Hinduism.htm

 

[radharani]

since spirituality has been lost in society, gender roles dont mean so much. there is nothing special about a woman, or a man. women have to act as men and where did women go? all i see is men, and women trying to be men.

[radharani]

meanwhile the environment turns to crap, and everyone has to scramble to be the first to get the dollar

[radharani]

yeh, i know, welcome to the kali yuga

[Sarasvati]

"all i see is men, and women trying to be men. "

 

Hmm, maybe, yet the fact remains that women cannot totally ignore their biological side even in Kali-yuga. An example (not connected to Manu-Samhita, though) is that many women want to build up their career before building up their family, but by the time they finally try to have children, it is too late. Did you know that female fertility starts declining at the age of 27? I'm not trying to preach here, just stating interesting, less-known, scientific facts. So how much ever we try to be man-like, we still have our feminine bodies. I think it is good to remind ourselves that these woman's bodies are not all evil, but made in the image of Goddess.

 

As for women being special - well, I think we are pretty special (and men are special in their own wonderful way, too). Yes-yes, our bodies are perverted reflections of those in the spiritual world; that's one way of looking at it. But our bodies are also temples, and therefore they are special. For the past 5,000 years, the feminine temple has been ignored or ridiculed, taken advantage of or blamed for all the sins of the mankind. So it is good to remind ourselves that it's not always been like that.

 

People (especially those from Judeo-Xtian or Islamic background) view female bodies as somehow lesser in importance. What to speak of respecting an ordinary woman, they don't even respect Goddess.

 

So, respecting all the glorious women - that's my point here.

[Guest guest]

excellent points. when women respect themselves, it will be very good for them and also for the rest of the society.

 

but women are forced to be man-like because they need to protect themselves.

[radharani]

what i meant was, the special traits dont seem to be all that important anymore, the special traits are lost to most people.

[Sarasvati]

Special feminine traits, you mean? I think they are every bit as important today as in ancient times.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Sarasvati:

Special feminine traits, you mean? I think they are every bit as important today as in ancient times.

Feminine traits are more valuable today than in ancient times because they are very rare. But a woman has to be protected by a man. Today as the woman has to protect herself at school and work, she needs to act like a man. Thus she has to have two personalities. We are making life hard for a woman.

 

 

[sha]

Women and Scriptures

 

The following selection of verses are from Laksmi Tantra, Chapter 43, on the subject of women and their status in the Pancaratra tradition.

 

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na samret kamini nindam karmana manasa gira yatraham tatra tattvani tatraham tatra devatah (62)

 

A yogin should never abuse a woman, either in deed, speech or thought. Wherever I (Lakshmi) am, the realities are where ever I am the gods too are.

 

yo bhinindati tam narim laksmima bhinindati yo bhinindati tam laksmi trailokyama bhinindati (64)

 

He who abuses women abuses Laksmi herself; He who abuses Laksmi abuses the entire three worlds.

 

jyotsnam iva striyam drstva yasya cittam prasidati napadhyayati yatkincit sa me priyatmano matah (66)

 

He whose heart is gladdened by the sight of women, like moonlight, and who never entertains evil thoughts about them, he is most dear to Me.

 

aruna hyapaga yadvattatha simantini vara yadasmi janani nama trayanam jagatamaham (69)

 

As also the Aruna river, so too are all women revered as being sinless.

 

mattanurvanita saksad yogi kasmanna pujayet na kuryad vrjinam naryah kuvrttam na smaret striyah (71)

 

Knowing women as my direct manifestation, how can a yogi refrain from revering them? Women should always be worshipped and treated with affection.

 

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The Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva, Section XLVI Bhishma said:

 

"Respect, kind treatment and everything else that is agreeable, should all be given unto the maiden whose hand is taken in marriage. Her sire and brothers and father-in law and husband's brothers should show her every respect and adorn her with ornaments. If they be desirous of reaping benefits, for such conduct on their part always leads to considerable happiness and advantage.

 

"Women should always be worshipped and treated with affection. There where women are treated with respect, the very deities are said to be filled with joy. There where women are not worshipped, all acts become fruitless. If the women of a family, in consequence of the treatment they receive, grieve and shed tears, that family soon becomes extinct. Those houses that are cursed by women meet with destruction and ruin as if scorched by some Atharvan rite. Such houses lose their splendor. Their growth and prosperity cease. Women are disposed to accept the love that is offered to them, and devoted to truth. Women deserve to be honored.

 

"Do ye men show them honor. The righteousness of men depends upon women. All pleasures and enjoyments also completely depend upon them. Do ye serve them and worship them. Do ye bend your wills before them. The begetting of offspring, the nursing of children already born, and the accomplishment of all acts necessary for the needs of society, behold, all these have women for their cause.

 

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"By honoring women, ye are sure to attain to the fruition of all objects. Deities of prosperity are women. The persons that desire prosperity should honor them. By cherishing women, one cherishes the goddess of prosperity herself, and by afflicting her, one is said to afflict the goddess of prosperity."<small><font color="cfcfcf">

 

[This message has been edited by sha (edited 07-06-2002).]

[radharani]

Originally posted by radharani:

since spirituality has been lost in society, gender roles dont mean so much. there is nothing special about a woman, or a man. women have to act as men and where did women go? all i see is men, and women trying to be men.

Ok. I'll try this again. The main point to what I was saying was, 'since spirituality has been lost in society'

 

I was not saying there is nothing special about men or women, I was saying that from the viewpoint of modern society, these special traits arent as important, as say, how much money one is capable of earning, for example.

 

Women acting as men: the point I was making here is that with women having equal employment opportunites in comparison with 1900, 1920, etc, instead of bringing the uniqueness that a feminine viewpoint has to offer, women instead fill men's shoes, it seems to me, doing the jobs the way a man would do them, rather than the way a woman would. But probably the way a woman would do something is on its way to being forgotten by many (it seems to me). I think of the evening news, for example, when I'm thinking this, or of all the various other jobs that a woman can do if only she acts like a man.

[Sarasvati]

Originally by Ram:

"But a woman has to be protected by a man. Today as the woman has to protect herself at school and work, she needs to act like a man. Thus she has to have two personalities. We are making life hard for a woman"

 

Yes, indeed, life is made hard for a woman.

 

I'd like to elaborate on the protection point. It is not that men must protect women to keep them confined or something - this is a point often misunderstood by many - but rather to render them the service of protection. Everyone, including the feminist, is happy with that understanding. It is not that women cannot fight, etc. if there is a need. 150 years ago Rani of Jhansi fought the British with her son wrapped on her back, the reins of her horse in her mouth, and both hands yielding the sword. But this was because of the extraordinary situation (and definitely most shocking and indecent in the eyes of the Victorian Englishmen). Normally, she had bodyguards. Normally, women like to have bodyguard(s). And men like to show their chivalry by accepting that role.

[shivaji]

Thank you Sarasvati for your original post, I enjoyed it very much. And the pictures posted by 'sha' were great.

[Tarun]

Good thread. Don't shy away.

SarasvatI: "Did you know that female fertility starts declining at the age of 27? I'm not trying to preach here, just stating interesting, less known..."

Yes, my 1st wife had all pregnancies betwixt age 17-27.

Percentage of women competing with men for jobs has greatly increased.

Many men feel they've all but lost their fatherly position.

Some say it's one of Mother Nature's many ways to curtail overpop.

ZrIla Bv NArAyaN Mhrj has many single western fem ziSyas.

He advised them to get themselves under some vaiSNava's protection.

Dealing with them head-on so to speak has become a relative burden.

[krishnas]

Originally posted by ram:

Feminine traits are more valuable today than in ancient times because they are very rare.

 

This reminds me of an encounter my wife and I recently had. She is of course, of Indian birth and upbringing, and even more importantly, from a very conservative and traditional family. She isn't cut throat or ambitious like many of the American born Indian women whom I have met. Rather, she tends to be very gentle and polite, even to those who clearly don't deserve it.

 

One elderly American lady who stays in our complex always made it a point to greet us, especially my wife. I never really got to know her. But when my father-in-law came to visit us, this lady approached him rather boldly and began immediately complementing him on raising such a polite, respectful and well-mannered daughter. She actually started to lament that her own daughter wasn't like this. We barely even knew this lady, so we were shocked that she would speak like this.

 

What did I take back from this? I guess it made me realize that the gentle, well-mannered traits that are instilled in Indian women from orthodox families are nothing to be discounted. When even American people can appreciate them so spontaneously, perhaps as Indians (or practitioners of Indian/Vedic culture) we shouldn't be quick to discard them as irrelevant to today's society. It's a shame that many Indian girls in the Western hemisphere are so quick to take up the mantle of the "independent, ambitious" careerwoman.

 

 

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www.achintya.org

[Guest guest]

Look.

Krishna prays in Radha Kund for a chance to have 'darshan' of Srimati Radharani.

He wears the footprints of Srimati Radharani on his head, and proudly.

And this is the lord of the three worlds, placing the dust of Srimati Radharani's lotus feet on his *forehead*

Gender roles?

Case closed.

[Guest guest]

One last thing, might be a little too deep for some people.

We are all prakriti, Krishna is the one and only Purusha.

What does this mean?

Prakriti = female

Purusha = male

 

Food for thought.

[Avinash]

Why is there a thum-down icon for this thread? If I remember correctly, Sarasvati ji had put a smiling face.

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

The icons got renamed and mixed up. So smile.gif became a thumbs down.

 

I will fix it a little later.

 

[Dharma]

Here is an excerpt from The Dharma of Kalki-An introduction

 

"Women have long been victimized and have been vulnerable across the length and breadth of the globe. Even today, even in the most developed nations of the world, the vulnerability of the women is pronounced. Superficially there may have been changes, but deep down, the vulnerabilities remain. Especially when it comes to matters spiritual, even though India has been a country with women saints and philosophers being widely respected, the situation has been very dsmal except during the earliest days of recorded history.

 

There have been many encouraging developments in the land where Mirabai and Andal have been revered as saints. Recently, an interesting trend in Maharashastra has been the fact that there has been a sudden spurt in the number of femal Purohits, not just from the Brahmin community but from all castes and creeds of society. However our land, which has encouraged even in Vedic times, girls to attend Veda Pathashalas, a land which a great Avatara Purusha, Sri Parshvanath had 38,000 Sanyasinis under a Sanyasini leader, Acharya Sri Pshpakula and 3,27,000 of lay women devotees under the leadership of a spiritual teacher named Acharya Sri Sunanda: a land in which the Brahmavadinis had grown to great stature and fame; in that very same land Kalki has now arisen reminding us of the consequences of a life-style which disrespects women. He is emphatic in stating that no house, community, or nation will prosper if there is disrespect shown to women. At the same time, He has placed a very great responsibility on the shoulders of all women. He wants them to awaken to His call and spiritually rejuvenate themselves, so to become His agents for a global transition into a different state of consciousness.

 

One of the essential pre-requisites for the establishment of the Dharma of Kalki and the reception of His Grace undoubtably is the growth in the spiritual status of women. No macro-level transformation in the world is possible without the fulfillment of this cause.

 

For in His Mahavakya, He says clearly, "Respect women and You shall receieve My Grace immediately."

___________

Interestingly many of the female devotees and dasas of Kalki Bhagavan & Ama, more so than the men are jiva mukti. I was still surprised to here one of the male Acharyas announce at a retreat that in the spiritual realm women are superior in every way. (not half as surprised though as the men I suppose).

 

Another interesting phenomenon is that when many of the young men in that dharma are looking for wives they appraoch the dasas of Kalki and ask who is close to enlightenment, who is making spiritual progress, whose heart is flowering. The focus is not so much on beauty, income or social status. The enlightened or awakened wife is prized above the others.

 

If there is financial struggling the devotees are urged to look at their relationships with women-particularly the mother as definately a household with an unhappy woman will not prosper, as you mentioned in your post. In many causes treating the women of the house with respect and working on perfecting one's relationships with women brings more financial gain than sending them out into the workforce.

 

Like the saying goes: "If momma ain't happy ain't nobody happy."

 

[Dharma]

quoteIt's a shame that many Indian girls in the Western hemisphere are so quick to take up the mantle of the "independent, ambitious" careerwoman.

 

Possibly because in the West we were taught to ape men.

 

It is what was expected in the business world. Problem is then we find we don't really need men so much and its scarey to men. I think maybe the plan might have backfired. Even the Amish women say "It takes a mighty fine man to be better than no man."

 

Up until the recent sexaul harrasment and discrimination laws you pretty much had to be tough, act like a man or at least know karate if your husband expected you to work, as some the the employers and supervisors were very predatory in a sexual way. Alot of ultimatums were given to women by their male employers in previous decades. Still goes on but now there is some protection of the law.

 

Here the working wife and the beautiful wife are prized above all others. Did you know that here beautiful women generally marry more well-to-do and interesting men?

 

Kind of funny. Makes for alot of plastic surgery anyway!

 

Your wife sounds like a very lovely person.

[Katwoman973]

This may sound like quite a naive question to some, but if we're all souls and all part of the same whole just in this physical body for a time isn't this whole debate irrelevant?

Shouldn't we be (according to ANY Holy scripture) loving, respecting and caring for each other no matter what the outer body looks like because we are focused on the inner God-self and soul? Taken in that context it should not matter if our outer body is black or white, male or female, blond or redhead, correct? Each of us should respect love and honor every person we come across in the same manner, because each person, in fact each thing, is another part of us. If we disrespect anyone else or anything else due to it's outer "trappings" are we not disrespecting ourselves?

I guess I just wanted to see other's point of view, because this is a debate I see in anything from my sports groups to my spiritual groups....women Vs men. Shouldn't it be women AND men, each has it's unique gifts from God which are meant to be shared during this (and other) lifetimes and each follows her/his own path as God intends. Respect and love should not be given to the outer trappings, but the inner soul which connects us all.

As for the "trying to be" (like men, or more modern, or more beautiful) isn't that part of the world of maya? We are all trying to be-something, instead of just learning to BE. If we learn to just BE, and BE from our hearts then again, the outer trappings become irrelevant.

I don't mean to offend, or put down anyone's point of view...but as a woman, sometimes these debates get tiring, because I want to be respected for the whole being I am, not just because I am a woman, or of a certain race, or even because of the country I come from. Love and respect me for the be-ing you see and FEEL inside, not my outer trappings.

 

Just the meanderings of a mind...

 

Namaste,

Kenyatta