Gauracandra Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 There has been a general deemphasis of the concept of Hell among various Christian groups. It just doesn't poll that well with congregation members. If you are preaching to yuppie, volvo driving soccer moms, the notion of everlasting damnation (Christian perspective) just doesn't sit very well. I was speaking with my Jewish friend about this briefly once (most of our conversations tend to be fairly brief) and he explained the Jewish concept of hell. Basically, in Judaism hell is a place to cleanse oneself. Sin is like a stain, and you go to a hell to scrub off the sin. He made an interesting point that one will not stay in hell for more than 11 months (thats the maximum), after which one is allowed to go to heaven. Where the 11 months comes from I don't know. While discussing this he did say that it was possible a person would not be let into heaven if they still had things that needed to be done back on earth. In this case the soul of the person would take birth again as a human to finish off the needed tasks. This was very interesting to me as it showed the concept of reincarnation in Judaic thought. I don't believe they accept that a person will reincarnate except as a human (ie. you don't have reincarnation through species). He said such individuals are known as "old souls". Back to the subject of hell. Alot of Christian preachers today want to deemphasize this final judgment. I read a quote from Billy Graham even where he completely reversed his old stance. He used to say there was a place called hell where people would be judged. But today he just says that hell is a separation from God (more a concept than a place). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 Originally posted by Gauracandra: Back to the subject of hell. Alot of Christian preachers today want to deemphasize this final judgment. I read a quote from Billy Graham even where he completely reversed his old stance. He used to say there was a place called hell where people would be judged. But today he just says that hell is a separation from God (more a concept than a place). One thing is that every place or thing in the manifested universes is an effect of someones concept.From the mental plane the grosser forms of matter are generated. So if one has a hellish concept of how life should be experienced a place is provided for that experience to be played out in. Where the so-called Christians go wrong is in their one strike and you are out for ever fantasy.No second chance. Until they get a grasp of reincarnation they will flip flop from believing this to believing that and then back again. And no one can really get a firm grasp on reincarnation without understanding the distinction between the spiritself and the bodies subtle and gross. They are in a difficult position because they have been taught that there is no other book of divine wisdom other than their Bible and the Bible never makes these points clear enough. The Gita begins at this point but how to bridge the gap in a way that they can accept? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarun Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 HELL HAS SO MANY definitions. At least 8,400,000. 1) absence of vaiSNav-sanga 2) working for false ego = body designation, as opposed to real ego 3) ignorance 4) mining 5) marriage to the wrong person 6) shooting the wrong person 7) shooting that wrong person you married Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauracandra Posted July 10, 2002 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 With regard to the Judaic view of the soul and reincarnation, I think I have read about it in one of Steven Rosen's books. Most likely "Om Shalom". I'll see if I can find anything specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauracandra Posted July 10, 2002 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 Here is something quickly I found in "Om Shalom". I'll try to find something more specific to the notion of hell. Rabbi Shimmel: Very good question... these souls do go to God, to the world-to-come, but they expand to accomodate new Jewish generations as well. It's as if part of the soul - or one level of the soul - goes to God and part stays here to accomodate Jewish birth. I'm not sure that I could answer more satisfactorily than that. You know, this is a very esoteric subject... You would need to speak to someone who is accomplished in Kabbalah. My area is Torah and Talmud, primarily. I am also studying Kabbalah - but this is a vast subject. The Jewish spirit, or soul, is dealt with at length... There are 600,000 Jewish souls, but there are more than 15,000,000 Jews in the world today. Conversion is a factor, too. So there is the concept of "fragmented souls" as I've just mentioned. In Kabbalistic terms, this concept is also known as "repairing the vessels." So Jewish souls expand to accomodate many different bodies - the growing number of Jews... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atma Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 I didn't get the part of the Jewish souls. Do they think there're only 600.000 Jewish souls? To explain the 15 million of them here they accept the expansion of the soul? Soul is soul, what is this Jewish soul concept? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 While reading the English translations of Hindu scriptures, I have found that sometimes different words of Sanskrit are translated into the same word in English even though these Sanskrit words do not mean the same thing. As an example, both 'atma' and 'jiva' have been translated into 'soul'. But when I study the details of these two given in the scriptures, I find that these two are not the same. In fact, the word 'soul' is used in so many different meanings that this word is often confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atma Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 About the concept of the souls going to hell for cleansing, Don't we have something similar? As far as I remember sinful souls go to hell for a while and later take birth accordingly. I remember Harikesh mentioning a number of months, unfortunately I don't remember exactly. What is the Vedic concept? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete1 Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 And I heard that Srila Bhaktivinode wrote that the conception of hell was invented to frighten the s*** out of the demons and atheists. For many people and creatures hell is happening on earth this very moment. Theist wrote....So if one has a hellish concept of how life should be experienced a place is provided for that experience to be played out in.... So the followers of Alex Cooper and Ozzy Osborne, satanist e.g. will go to a place where what is now fashion for them becomes a reality where the devil is real? Everything we can imagine exists somewhere ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kailasa Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 **in hell for more than 11 months (thats the maximum It is planet Agny for purification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete1 Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 My grandmother saw dark (humanform )shadows appear around her bed before she died, she was terribly frightend. My wife knew when her grandmother died, at 13pm she said to me "my grandma is dead" 30 minutes later her mother rung to say that jennies grandmother had died in the old peoples home at 13pm At that evening at arround 20pm, we both felt a warm presence in our livingroom, which we both recognised at the same time. This presence was very light and friendly and seem to hover right above our TV. The presence came from two spirits, one of them was her grandfather who died 12 years before and who had waited for his wife all this time. For the past few years Jennies grandmother used to say that she could feel her husband with her many times and she always believed that he was still arround. Anyway it seemed that both of them came to visit us to say goodby, they where arround us for about 15 minutes, and I took the opportunity to open the Bhagavad Gita and showed them different slokas and pictures of Radha and Krishna, then suddenly they where gone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauracandra Posted July 11, 2002 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2002 I'll have to ask my friend about the Jewish conception of the soul. The idea of 600,000 Jewish souls does seem a bit of an odd concept to grasp. The problem is always how to introduce the subject into polite conversation. Its a bit difficult to just pop in and say "Hey, whats this I hear about there only being 600,000 Jewish souls?" So I'll see if I can find a good point to ask some general questions. He usually answers fairly directly, but also often trails off with "Its a bit complicated...." So I don't know if I'll get a real good handle on it. As for Pete's statement about his grandmother, I've heard of similar stories before. Kind of scary to think about actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atma Posted July 11, 2002 Report Share Posted July 11, 2002 Isn't scary if the departed souls who come to visit are your wellwishers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted July 11, 2002 Report Share Posted July 11, 2002 Isn't scary if the departed souls who come to visit are your wellwishers. But I am very much afraid of bhooooooooooot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete1 Posted July 11, 2002 Report Share Posted July 11, 2002 I tell Buffy the vampire slayer, .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahak Posted July 12, 2002 Report Share Posted July 12, 2002 hell is finding out "till death do you part" is not true, and death does not end the suffering in the slighest degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahak Posted July 12, 2002 Report Share Posted July 12, 2002 hell is finding out "till death do you part" is not true, and death does not end the suffering in the slighest degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarun Posted July 18, 2002 Report Share Posted July 18, 2002 Hell means to have the means sans ever attaining your desired end. Hell means to have no means to ever attain your desired end. Hell means where all r mean, even all pseudo-friends & family members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leyh Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 Personally I find the idea of an eternal hell to be repulsive and contradictory to the idea of a loving God.How could a loving God tolerate anyone of His children burning for ever and ever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted July 19, 2002 Report Share Posted July 19, 2002 Originally posted by leyh: Personally I find the idea of an eternal hell to be repulsive and contradictory to the idea of a loving God.How could a loving God tolerate anyone of His children burning for ever and ever? leyh, Agreed.But even if one accepts the existence of hell as always existing in some form,it doesn't mean that any one soul must always exist in it. Perhaps there is a rising up from hell when one's debt is paid,similar to a falling from heaven when the results from one's pious deeds are used up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leyh Posted July 20, 2002 Report Share Posted July 20, 2002 Originally posted by theist: leyh, Agreed.But even if one accepts the existence of hell as always existing in some form,it doesn't mean that any one soul must always exist in it. Perhaps there is a rising up from hell when one's debt is paid,similar to a falling from heaven when the results from one's pious deeds are used up. Theist: I agree with you.I accept the existence of hellish states...for even in this material world we see opulent heaven-like places and poverty-stricken hell-like lands...What I do not and cannot accept is the doctrine that a living entity can be doomed to spend eternity in a hellish state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarun Posted July 22, 2002 Report Share Posted July 22, 2002 Hell is when u don't receive compensation for their obliteration of your imagination. They get away with. U let them. TamoguN ratio to high. yadA yadA... Hell is where people don't get paid to watch TV. tadAtmAnAm... Heaven is where everyone knows it doesn't pay to watch TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted July 25, 2002 Report Share Posted July 25, 2002 At this moment there are nine miners trapped 300 feet underground in the state of Penn. They accidentally drilled into an old, adjacent mine that was filled with water.The estimate is 50-60 million gallons of water have poured in to where they are. They know where hell is for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauracandra Posted July 29, 2002 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2002 I'm glad those miners got out alright. I was watching live as it was announced that all 9 were alive and in reasonably good condition. Its really tough for these folks. They just want to earn a living, but man that is one awful job to have to go to every day. I'm reminded of a "Prabhupada said" story. Srila Prabhupada was explaining that one preacher went to a mining town to preach and he started to talk about hell. He said "In hell it is always pitch black, way down in the ground, and very difficult to breath". The miners all looked at each other and thought "Ok, so basically it will be like every day of our lives right now. Hells not so scary." I don't have the story all that well. I don't know the context or purport to the story exactly. Anyone heard this one before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarun Posted July 29, 2002 Report Share Posted July 29, 2002 Gaurji: Yes, priest's dark, damp dusty description of Hell did not, could not frighten these seasoned miners. They were accustomed to that atmosphere already. Nothing new for them. But when this priest went on to state: "In Hell there r no newspapers!", then the miners reacted fearfully. "Did u hear that? No newspapers! Oh My God! That's horrible! I can't live without my newspapers. This is serious. I better improve myself so I don't have to go to such a dreadful Hellish place after death." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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