Monotheism vs Polytheism: Islam vs Hinduism

[Farhan]

I don't understand one thing and that is, WHY DO YOU HAVE SO MANY GODS? In Islam there is only one Supreme God and that's ALLAH and it's logical.

ONE GOD - it makes sense because he's the supreme creator.

 

And i want to ask where does it say in Gita or any other Hindu Book that you are allowed to listen to Music and have sex without being married? did krsna said that to have sex without marriage and get urself AIDS and get killed? Did krsna said that listen to Music and get lost in the rythm, beat, melody of that music and forget about me?

[Guest guest]

 

Sri Ramanujacharya made the point that even if it could be proved, via logic etc., that the universe was created by a Creator, that wouldn't necessarily mean that in some far off region of the cosmos a different Creator had created a different universe. Indeed, the Vedas say that there are many creators and many universes. The fact that a particular person has the ability to create a universe doesn't imply that this person is the Supreme God.

 

And what is more, in Islam don't they admit the existence of an anti-God, a second great power called Satan who is working against God and who God cannot control? So they really have two gods in their belief system, one good, the other bad. They are not strict monotheists.

 

 

[sumedh]

Ah mind loves simplicity; things should be simple but unfortunately when we see anything even in the material world everything is complicated beyond comprehension. We want to capture the Infinite into our material minds and so simple descriptions seem logical. Allah is the Supreme Creator, but when the intricacies of creation are looked at then we find that He actually does not directly do so rather through His empowered servants; why? because if Allah would be doing everything (which He is actually) directly then what would the servants do to serve Him. So is the case with the sustenance and destruction of the innumerable material universes. Of course, in this world we treat Allah as our servant to supply our needs and these being borne out of selfish desires and indifference to Allah become the cause of our separation from Him.

 

Sex only in married life for bringing up children as servants of Allah is sanctioned; so is music for praising the Lord and His devotees. The bottom-line is that everything at our disposal should be used in the service of the Lord; on the other hand if we desist from using things which can be used in His service (such as music) then it should be construed of as lack of devotional service.

[Guest guest]

“And what is more, in Islam don't they admit the existence of an anti-God, a second great power called Satan who is working against God and who God cannot control? So they really have two gods in their belief system, one good, the other bad. They are not strict monotheists.”

 

No they do not. You cannot possible even begin to compare the “great” power of Satan to that of God. To be a Muslim is to declare:

 

“Say! God, who is one! The self-sufficient one! And none is comparable unto him.”

 

Many theologists suggest that if God can control Satan then why doesn’t he stop him doing the bad things that he does? I do not know the answer to that question. This is why religion is about faith, not scientific fact.

 

However, in Islam we definitely know that God can control Satan because:

 

“God said (to Satan): "Get out from this (Eden), despised and expelled. If any of them (humans) follow thee, hell will I fill with you all.”

 

We know therefore, that God can condemn Satan to hell whenever he wishes. So, the whole point of God not being able to control Satan is moot.

 

You show your ignorance by stating that Islam has two gods. The whole concept of Islam, it’s central theme, is that there is ONE God, and he is all powerful, all wise. You are saying therefore that to believe that something is evil, is to elevate it to the position of a bad god? That is nonsense!

[Guest guest]

"The whole concept of Islam, it’s central theme, is that there is ONE God, and he is all powerful, all wise."

 

The central theme of Vedic Wisdom is also there is one God. The Ambrosia is that we love and serve him with all our heart. Even you cannot deny this basic truth?

 

Let the subtle differences exist. You are happy where you are, and we are happy where we are. Leave it at that.

[Guest guest]

 

quote:

Many theologists suggest that if God can control Satan then why doesn’t he stop him doing the bad things that he does? I do not know the answer to that question. This is why religion is about faith, not scientific fact.

 

However, in Islam we definitely know that God can control Satan because:

 

“God said (to Satan): "Get out from this (Eden), despised and expelled. If any of them (humans) follow thee, hell will I fill with you all.”

 

We know therefore, that God can condemn Satan to hell whenever he wishes. So, the whole point of God not being able to control Satan is moot.

 

<hr>

 

There is only One God who controls the universe and all the living souls. In the scriptures, His name is given as Vishnu, Krishna, Rama. Even Allah, we might say.

 

According to Vaishnavism, there is no such thing as Satan. Satan is nothing more than a myth. A story made up by Zoaraster in Babylon, according to Bhaktivinode Thakur. The myth of Adam and Eve, and the story about Satan tempting them, are only stories made up by people who were trying to explain why human beings living in this world are suffering. Obviously, if God is in control of the universe then God who is administering the suffering upon people that people are experiencing.

 

Why are people suffering? According to Jews, Christians and Muslims, it is because Satan is causing trouble in the world. So, why doesn't God stop Satan, if he is all-powerful.

 

You say you don't know why God doesn’t stop Satan doing the bad things.

 

But if we realize that the soul is eternal and that we are suffering pain in this life because of sins we performed in our past lives, then we can understand that life on earth is an ongoing process whereby souls are evolving towards perfection. We don't need to believe in the myth of Satan. The ancient Egyptians, the Pytagoreans in Greece and the Romans, they all saw reincarnation as a way of explaining why there is suffering on earth, but then along came Zoaraster with his Babylonian philosophy, and his idea that there are two powers, one good and the other evil, who are fighting in a cosmic war. But this is only a story, a myth.

 

The Bhagavad Gita explains why there is suffering in the world. And we don't need any strange stories about everlasting hell or Satan that were made up by Zoaraster to explain why we are suffering. All our suffering is because of wrong things we did in the past, and if we stop doing bad things such as killing cows and offering the blood of animals to a false god, then we will evolve to a higher stage of existence.

[Guest guest]

Sri Tattva Viveka

by Sri Bhaktivinode Thakur

 

kecid vadanti visvam vai paresa-nirmitam kila

jivanam sukha-bhogaya dharmaya ca visesatah (24)

 

Some philosophers say God created this world in order to make a place where souls have an opportunity to enjoy happiness or become pious. (24)

 

Commentary by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur:

Some philosophers say God created this world to give us an opportunity to enjoy pleasures. They think that after sinlessly enjoying different luxuries and pleasures, people will praise God and perform pious deeds, praising God for his mercy towards them. However, if God really had wanted to create this material world for the soul's pleasure then surely He would not have created it as it is. This world is a place full of problems, troubles and disasters. If we consider whether or not this world is a place of enjoyment, we cannot but think this world is filled with many horrible defects. God is all-powerful and whatever he wishes to happen is done at once, so surely he would have created the material world as something that functions in a better way if he was making a world where souls will enjoy pleasures. He would have made it as something faultless. And if he created the material world as a place for souls to perform pious deeds, then surely He would have made it very different from the way it is. Of this there is no doubt. Why is there no doubt of this? Because in the material world pious deeds are not easily performed by every soul.

 

adi-jivaparadhad vai sarvesam bandhanam dhruvam

tathanya-jiva-bhutasya vibhor dandena niskritih (25)

Some philosophers say that because of the first human being's sin all the other human beings are imprisoned in the material world. Then, punishing Himself for their sins, God delivers the living entities from sin.(25)

 

Commentary by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur:

Thinking about the virtues and faults of this world, some moralist monotheists have concluded that this material world is not a place of unalloyed pleasures. Indeed, the sufferings greatly outweigh the pleasures. They have decided that the material world is a prison created for the punishment of humankind. If there is a punishment, then there must be a crime that has been committed. Indeed if there were no crime then why would there be any punishment? What crime did the living creatures commit, that they are born into a world of suffering? Unable to properly answer this question, some men of small intelligence gave birth to a very wild idea. They imagine God created the first man and placed him in a pleasant garden with his wife. Then God forbade the man to taste the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Following the evil counsel of a wicked being the first man and woman tasted the fruit of the tree of knowledge, thus disobeying God's command. In this way they fell from grace and were expelled from that garden and thrown into this material world which is filled with sufferings. Because of their offence, all other living entities are offenders from the moment of their birth. Not seeing any other way to remove this offence, God himself took birth in a human form. He took on his own shoulders the sins of his followers, and then died. All who follow him shall easily attain salvation, and all who do not follow him will fall into an eternal hell. In this way God assumes a humanlike form, punishes himself, and liberates humankind.

 

An intelligent person cannot make sense of any of this.

 

janmato jiva-sambhavo maranante na janma vai

yat-kritam samsritau tena jivasya caramam phalam (26)

These philosophers say that the soul comes into existence at birth. After death, he is not born again on earth. After death he attains either heaven or hell as a result of his actions in that one lifetime. (26)

 

Commentary by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur:

To accept this concocted religion one must first believe in some rather implausible things. The living entity's life begins at birth - before birth the living entity did not exist. After death, the living entity will no longer stay in the world of material activities. Only human beings have souls - other creatures have no soul. But only extremely unintelligent persons believe in this religion. In this religion the living entity is not an eternal, spirit being by nature. God has created the living entities out of matter.

 

Why are the living entities born into very different situations? Some are rich and healthy, some are poor and sickly. The followers of this religion cannot say. Why is one person born into a house filled with sufferings while another takes birth in a house filled with joys? One is born into the house of people devoted to God while another is born in a wicked atheist's family. Why is one person born in a household where he is encouraged to perform pious deeds, and he then goes and performs pious deeds. But another person is born in a family of atheists and is placed in a situation where he is encouraged to sin? He sins and becomes bad, because of his circumstances. The followers of this religion cannot answer all these questions. Their religion seems to say that God is unfair and irrational, for it is God who decides what sort of life someone will have.

 

Why do they say that animals have no souls? Why don't birds and beasts have souls like the human beings? Why do the human beings have only one life? Bcause of their actions in that one life people are rewarded with eternal heaven or punished with eternal hell. Any person who believes in a truly kind and merciful God will find this religion completely unacceptable.

 

atra sthitasya jivasya karma-jnananusilanat

visvonnati-vidhanena kartavyam isa-tosanam (27)

These people say that by doing work and by accumulating knowledge humankind can make improvements in the material world and in this way please God. (27)

 

Commentary by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur:

The followers of this religion have no tendency to worship God selflessly. In general their idea is that by doing work and by gaining knowledge one should work to improve the material world, and in this way please God. By building hospitals and schools, and by doing various philanthropic works, they try to do good in the world and thus please God. Worship of God by performing work (karma) and by engaging in studies and learning (jnana) is very important to them. They show no capacity to understand pure devotional service (suddha-bhakti), which is free of fruitive work and philosophical speculation.

 

Worship of God done out of a sense of duty is never natural or unselfish. "God has been kind to us, and therefore we should worship Him." These are the thoughts of lesser minds. Why is this not a good way to worship God? Because one may think, "If God is not kind to me, then I will not worship Him anymore." In this way one has the selfish, bad desire to get God's kindness in the future.

 

If one wishes that God will be kind by allowing one to serve Him, then there is nothing wrong with that desire. But the religion under discussion does not see it in that way. This religion sees God's kindness in terms of one's enjoying a happy life in this material world.

[Guest guest]

“Let the subtle differences exist. You are happy where you are, and we are happy where we are. Leave it at that.”

Normally, I would be perfectly happy to leave it at that. But seeing that this is a debate, where we argue our points…

“According to Vaishnavism, there is no such thing as Satan. Satan is nothing more than a myth. A story made up by Zoaraster in Babylon, according to Bhaktivinode Thakur. The myth of Adam and Eve, and the story about Satan tempting them, are only stories made up by people who were trying to explain why human beings living in this world are suffering.”

 

I am sorry. But these names you have used (Vaishnavism, Bhaktivinode Thakur), I am not familiar with them at all.

 

And I am sorry you have your facts wrong. Satan has been around since there have been people. If not literally, then in peoples’ beliefs. Zoaraster introduced the concept that we have only one life after which we are judged by the Almighty. Fine. I admit that this may seem relatively familiar in Islam and Christianity today, but so what? Since there have been people, they have believed that there is an evil in the cosmos, trying to misguide them. Zoaraster did not introduce this. It was already in many people’s belief system before Zoaraster (the ancient Greeks: Hades. The ancient Egyptians: Osiris, Sekhmet). These stories must have something of genuineness in them; because even legend originates in truth.

 

If you say that Adam and Eve is a myth made up by people, then some of the very common attributes in Hinduism are definitely myths, wouldn’t you say? If you believe in a demi-god who had an elephant head for a head because his own father chopped his head off, or a demi-god with many arms, then the Creation story should not seem all that strange to you.

 

”Why are people suffering? According to Jews, Christians and Muslims, it is because Satan is causing trouble in the world.”

 

Wrong again. Nowhere in Islam does it state that people suffer because Satan causes them to.

 

”But if we realize that the soul is eternal and that we are suffering pain in this life because of sins we performed in our past lives, then we can understand that life on earth is an ongoing process whereby souls are evolving towards perfection.”

 

I cannot realise this. Because it is not in my religion. The whole concept of ‘reincarnation’ so-called, is absolutely ridiculous to me. To be born again in another creature… And isn’t it believed in Hinduism that animals have no souls? If so, what if someone was reincarnated as a sheep? Would they have a soul?

 

“But this is only a story, a myth.”

 

For you perhaps it is only a myth or story. But for the 1.8 billion Christians, 2 billion Muslims and 200 million Jews (making up more than half the world’s population), it is not a myth, not a story, but true.

 

”The Bhagavad Gita explains why there is suffering in the world.”

 

Why on earth should I listen to his explanation. I don’t even know who he is. Where does he get his authority and knowledge from?

 

If you want to debate well and good. But provide me with evidence and arguments that I can genuinely acknowledge as reasonable.

 

“And we don't need any strange stories about everlasting hell or Satan that were made up by Zoaraster to explain why we are suffering. All our suffering is because of wrong things we did in the past, and if we stop doing bad things such as killing cows and offering the blood of animals to a false god, then we will evolve to a higher stage of existence.”

 

Now you have descended to the level of insulting. These “strange stories” as you so blindly put it, are believed by more than half the world’s population.

 

Let me put forward an argument: there has been human life on the planet for tens of thousands of years. If, as you say, reincarnation exists, and we “evolve to a higher stage of existence,” then why are crime rates, rapes, murders, robberies going up? Why are their more wars than ever? Why are selfishness, greed still rampart in the world? Shouldn’t we have in fact “evolved” beyond all that? Shouldn’t, in thousands of years of evolving to a higher stage, we be god ourselves?

[Guest guest]

"Normally, I would be perfectly happy to leave it at that. But seeing that this is a debate, where we argue our points…"

 

This isn't a debate and you know it - it's a "my religion is bettr than yours" thing.

 

[Avinash]

And isn’t it believed in Hinduism that animals have no souls?

 

Hinduism says that animals do have souls.

[Guest guest]

“This isn't a debate and you know it - it's a "my religion is bettr than yours" thing.”

 

No it is not. Insofar as much as I know, I have been debating. Read my posts (you can use logic to work out which ones), and nowhere have I out rightly humiliated Hinduism, or any other religion for that matter.

 

[Guest guest]

guest wrote:

I am sorry. But these names you have used (Vaishnavism, Bhaktivinode Thakur), I am not familiar with them at all.

----------

 

I suggest you do a search on Google for "Vaishnavism" and learn a little about Vaishnavism before engaging in debates here, because other participants on this forum are mostly believers in the religion of Vaishnavism.

 

[Guest guest]

http://www.vaishnava.com/aboutvaishnavism.htm

[Guest guest]

 

You know most religions are at best--- half Truths

Why? Because they have no idea of the Absolute Truth being all about a beautiful conjugal relationship between a Divine Couple who are simultaneously one and yet different and who's divine inconceivable exchanges of Pure loving pastimes when served, bring incomparable rapture or bliss to the individual.

 

It is so unfortunate that most of this worlds population of so called spiritualists are sadly missing the glorious opportunity and insights of grace given by the Gaudiya Vainavas, that is only received due to extreme inconceivably great fortune. A grant of Grace.To sing, dance and rejoice in the congregational party that praises the Holy Names and pastimes of the Lord.

 

Instead these conflicting religious movements go about fighting and killing each other in the name of their One God, many Gods and no God, how may i ask can so many get the truth so wrong for so long?

Gaura Hari bol

Give up all this mental exercise and perplexity of the heart and sing the sweet nectarean refrains of Sri Sri Radha Govinda

Sri Krsna Caitanya Radha-Krsna Nahe anya

[Guest guest]

My dear Muslim guest,

First of all let me offer you our respects.

To try to understand what is the Absolute Truth we must open ourselves to God without preconceived or fixed ideas and beliefs of what or who God is, otherwise we will be limiting God to one account of His Glories and He is so unlimited, that even if we had thousands of mouths we could never express the full extent of His infinite potentces. That is His wondrous nature, you can't hold Him in your hand and say this is Him.

So sincerely pray for Him to reveal Himself in His Most appealing Form and don't accept anything less, no relative truth or temporary belief system will do. We want the highest, deepest, sweetest conception of Divinity to come to our heart and make Himself known to us.

No deceipt- No delusion or tricks. If you Love us God- Allah- Jehovah -Rama- Buddha or Krishna show us by the revelation of your own grace make Yourself known and then by scriptures and the Lord in our hearts please confirm your Real identity. So that we be not perplexed with all this jungle of misconceptions.

Make us honest and open enough to receive real all accomodating faith in the most loving conception of God we can receive. And thereby serve, love and worship for our greatest benefit and the benefit of all others. That path which when practised deliver compassion for all living entities plant, animal and human alike and lead us to the ultimate goal of eternal life.

Let us practice the purest will of God for all of us.

 

How did you get here to start with? You have been born (again) in another creature which is human where you are now. The soul is just changing bodies, like this body changes clothes to create different identities, but the soul is unborn, undying --- eternal, it can't be killed with any material thing because it is of far superiour substance, And the soul never dies when the body dies. It is a similar principle to a worm turning into a butterfly, the same life force is there but the form of the body changes according to the mentality and consciousness we have previously developed, untill we eventually become so pure as to live self-realized and God-realized in our eternal spiritual form, which for some of us is very human-like. Of course the transmigration of the soul is a very deep and exacting science and we can't begin to understand it in an instant.

 

These higher truths can only start to dawn in us when we stop killing and eating all these other souls in animals forms, for our owm pleasure. And when we abstain from intoxication of all types and wasting our semen that helps develop higher intelligence, then we become equipoised and receptive to the more confidential knowledge of the Lords Divine will and ways.

Try to understand sheep don't have a soul they ARE a soul that has a sheeps body and so are all other forms of life from germs to demi-gods, with different durations of life expectancy in each respective form.

We ARE souls that have a human form, our body doesn't have our soul.

It takes some patience and perseverance to understand these points, also to explain them to others.

 

”The Bhagavad Gita explains why there is suffering in the world.”

 

Why on earth should I listen to his explanation. I don’t even know who he is. Where does he get his authority and knowledge from?

 

You had to start listening to Mohammads explanation of the Truth somewhere didn't you? Similarly Krsna to Hindhus is a vessal of Truth that may well be far more profound than anything you have previously read.

Only difference is Krsna is considered by most hindhus as an avatara of God Himself speaking 1st Person not Gods messanger. And his astounding revelations are accepted by countless numbers of saints and great personalities both east and west as the Gospel of unparalelled teachings that accomodates all understanding of things spiritual. So He IS the Supreme authority, which it wouldn't be advisable to challenge, respecfully question? Yes, but don't offend this sacred book which means The Song of God.

The reason for higher criminal activities and sin is because of the conditioned souls foolishness to try and BE God instead of practicing their true position as servants of God. Which by the way is what Vaisnavism means. Service to God.

Thank you for patiently considering these points.

[Guest guest]

”If you Love us God- Allah- Jehovah -Rama- Buddha or Krishna”

 

A point I did not make previously I’ll make now. Many say that there is One God, who had many different names: Allah, Krishna, Jesus etc.

However I disagree. I could not accept Krishna or Jesus as God simply because they are considered ‘god’ in different ways (and have different personalities) than Allah is considered God.

Let me explain: “Allah is God. Allah designates the Source from which all things seen and unseen emanate and return. He is al-Awwal (the First), al-Akhir (the Last), al-Zahir (the Manifest), al-Batin (the Hidden) etc.”

Jesus is said to be part of a Trinity, to be the son of god, but god himself (which is contradictory because then the question arises: Is Jesus his own father?).

Krishan meanwhile “is considered by most Hindus as an avatar of God Himself speaking in the 1st Person; not God’s messenger.” (quote from ^).

These three have distinct personalities. I, as a Muslim, can accept only Allah as the Lord of all that exists, not Jesus because he is the son of god, nor Krishna because he is an avatar of God etc etc. You get my point.

 

”untill we eventually become so pure as to live self-realized and God-realized in our eternal spiritual form, which for some of us is very human-like.”

 

But this is the bit I do not understand. How can a soul living in a human being, be reincarnated in the body of a worm? Isn’t that a degeneration of status; wouldn’t the spirit become less pure and god-like? Consequently, if that soul is reborn into another human being, would it not be bitter and want revenge for a lifetime as a worm? Wouldn’t it want to once again experience sexual pleasures that human experience? Wouldn’t it, in effect, because of its being a worm, sin ever more than before it was a worm?

 

“And his astounding revelations are accepted by countless numbers of saints and great personalities both east and west as the Gospel of unparalelled teachings that accomodates all understanding of things spiritual.”

 

The philosophy of Hitler, of Mussolini, of Napoleon was accepted by countless hundreds of thousands, even millions, yet does that make it right?

You say his revelations were accepted by countless numbers. I tell you that Islam is accepted and embraced by even more than your ‘countless numbers,’ that it still being accepted to this very day, and is the fastest growing religion in the world with the largest number of followers. Because if you are talking about numbers, then my friend I have you beat.

 

”So He IS the Supreme authority, which it wouldn't be advisable to challenge, respecfully question? Yes, but don't offend this sacred book which means The Song of God.”

 

But, mon ami, if I insult your religion, and you likewise insult mine, there is nothing you or I could do about it. These days there is ‘Freedom of speech’ that.

 

”The reason for higher criminal activities and sin is because of the conditioned souls foolishness to try and BE God instead of practicing their true position as servants of God.”

 

Simple psychology; if you told Hitler or Mussolini that they were doing the wrong things they were doing because they were trying to be more like God, then they would laugh in your face. Same with nearly every other criminal in the world.

[Guest guest]

There are some great points you have raised here, Muslim guest (sorry, no name is supplied in your posts). I have found these points are often raised by people of other religions because they haven't had the whole "background" knowledge available to them. I think i can at least attempt to explain a few points... (senior devotees, please do correct me)...

 

"But this is the bit I do not understand. How can a soul living in a human being, be reincarnated in the body of a worm? Isn’t that a degeneration of status; .... Wouldn’t it, in effect, because of its being a worm, sin ever more than before it was a worm?"

 

You are entirely correct, going from human to worm (or any other creature) is a huge step down. Only as a human can you understand what your position is with God and therefore human life is extremely sacred. Firstly you have to accept that the soul (the TRUE you) does not have a form as such - it is not bound to a specific form. When you commit sin as a human, knowing full well that you are commiting sin, you accumuulate that sin as karma. Every action has a reaction, and u must pay for sin (as well as your good deeds). Therefore when sin has reached such a huge amount, you are effectively "demoted". That is your punishment. Can i ask why you think being a worm is sinful in itself though? What sin does a worm commit? The way i see it, it does it's duty according to its own nature - there is no sin (or have i misunderstood you).

 

"The philosophy of Hitler, of Mussolini, of Napoleon was accepted by countless hundreds of thousands, even millions, yet does that make it right? ... then my friend I have you beat."

 

You are right again - numbers mean nothing whatsoever. I think the previous poster was just trying to reiterate the Glory of Krishna through His followers. If you want to see what Krishna is all about, see a pure devotee - how he/she acts, talks, walks. That's what brought me into this belief.

 

By the way i apologise for saying this isn't a debate but a "my religion is better than yours" thing - i can see now that you are genuinly questioning.

 

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

 

Let me explain: “Allah is God. Allah designates the Source from which all things seen and unseen emanate and return. He is al-Awwal (the First), al-Akhir (the Last), al-Zahir (the Manifest), al-Batin (the Hidden) etc.”

 

 

 

Likewise the Supreme Lord in Vedic texts is said to be the Supreme Brahman from which everything emanates, the cause of all causes (Primal Cause), the Primal Purusha, Parama-Ishvara (the Supreme Controller), the Absolute Truth etc. full (i.e. in infinite measure) with six opulences namely strength (i.e. He possesses all the energies), fame (no one in material world or spiritual world has more fame), wealth (He is the possessor of everything), knowledge (Absolute knowledge of everything), beauty and renunciation (He is Supremely Independent and everything and everyone else is completely dependent on Him). All the innumerable universes emanate from the transcendental body of the Lord (called exhalation of the First Purusha) and after the duration of one cycle of creation is complete they merge into His body (called inhalation); i see no difference.

 

 

Krishan meanwhile “is considered by most Hindus as an avatar of God Himself speaking in the 1st Person; not God’s messenger.” (quote from ^).

 

 

 

Incarnation of God means coming down or descending to this material world, i.e. He is the Supreme Lord who appears to be a human. So to the pure devotees with the transcendental eyes/senses see His original transcendental form while the normal humans see only a material reflection of His form as a normal human. So there is only as much of a difference in God and His incarnation, as would be a if you went from your country to a distant one. Of course, by His inconceivable potency the Lord can expand into infinite number of forms; He can be situated at one place and still be in everyone's heart, He is both within and without etc.

 

The concept of Jesus among christians is indeed quite different for they believe that as son of God he is (effectively) God in human body. Incarnation or avataarvada is completely different; in fact it is quite an offense in vaishnavas to even consider that God can take a material human body, or can become less in any way anywhere for He is Absolute. His body is completely spiritual "composed" of sat(Absolute existence)-cit(Absolute knowledge)-ananda(Absolute bliss).

 

But even if you consider an incarnation to be in any way "lesser" than God (God is Omnipotent remember, so it will not be prudent to say that He cannot appear in this material world at all -- although, of course, He has got to do nothing with matter) then you should consider Lord Narayana as Allah, for by definition there is no difference in the two; at least i cannot find one.

 

 

But this is the bit I do not understand. How can a soul living in a human being, be reincarnated in the body of a worm?

 

 

 

Our friend has already explained this before. I will only add that because we wanted to enjoy independently of God leaving His service, He kindly provided this material world to us to try and fulfil these desires. While in the lower species of life the soul naturally evolves to life forms with higher consciousness, but at the human platform the freedom is substantially more (so more responsibility) and whatever desires and consequently consciousness we develop we attain to that in next life. For example, if we remain in ignorance and develop tiger/wolf like tendencies of attacking others etc. then we attain to those forms -- nature has facility for fulfilling such desires of all persons. If we have gravely sinned then we do go to the corresponding hell (in accordance with our sins) and suffer in proportion to our sins (then return to the life form in accordance with our consciousness). So we can develop consciousness from God-consciousness (then we become the servitor of God) down to a plant in this human life.

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna and dandavats

 

 

If you say that Adam and Eve is a myth made up by people, then some of the very common attributes in Hinduism are definitely myths, wouldn’t you say? If you believe in a demi-god who had an elephant head for a head because his own father chopped his head off, or a demi-god with many arms, then the Creation story should not seem all that strange to you.

 

 

 

Dear muslim friend i will like to add one thing, if you would not be offended. Yes, we may consider the Vedic accounts as myths but that is not the point. We have no idea of this material world what then to speak of the spiritual world, and so the story of satan etc. could be true but the problem is that the philosophy depends on it and so is really implausible. For example, the idea of the eternal hell i.e. infinite punishment for finite sins, is completely unacceptable when you have an all-merciful God or that when both animals and humans are conscious then how do humans have souls and animals don't have; or that all humans are being punished for the sin of Adam/Eve and so on. The Vedic philosophy does not stand or fall on the strength of those accounts which some may consider as myths.

 

You are welcome to put all your misgivings about Vedic culture (sanatana-dharma or vaishnavism) in this forum so that we can understand each others' position clearly. (i think what you call as "idol" worship would be a prominent one)

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna and dandavats

 

I see why you consider soul in body of worm as difficult to understand.

 

 

But this is the bit I do not understand. How can a soul living in a human being, be reincarnated in the body of a worm? Isn’t that a degeneration of status; wouldn’t the spirit become less pure and god-like? Consequently, if that soul is reborn into another human being, would it not be bitter and want revenge for a lifetime as a worm? Wouldn’t it want to once again experience sexual pleasures that human experience? Wouldn’t it, in effect, because of its being a worm, sin ever more than before it was a worm?

 

 

 

Regarding sin, as our friend has already explained that the worm is infact only strictly following its nature (for it has very little freedom) and sin etc. are not applicable to it; no freedom no sin. Just think, if you are in deep-sleep then do you become less "god-like". The consciousness of plants has been compared to that of "deep-sleep" (you can guess what: if a human stays put in one place all the time sleeping then he/she has every chance of going to plant life), and that of animals to that of dreaming. Of course, there are many gradations in the level of consciousness (8,400,000 according to Vedic texts). The soul itself does not become lesser or greater in anyway, who is spirit by nature all the time rather just the "medium of expression" (if i may say so) through the material bodies changes. Also regarding revenge, we (mostly) forget our previous life by the arrangement of nature (we don't even remember our dreams etc). This is particularly true of plant/animal life because there the level of consciousness is much less and remembrance is very little; particularly for plants they have (almost) no remembrance at all.

[Guest guest]

Yes we are not interested in numbers in Krsna Consciousness, quality is preferred over quantity. The Krsna conception is only for those whose surrender and sacrifice is cent per cent. As Krsna states in Bhagavad Gita

"Just give up all forms of religion and surrender to Me I will protect you, for you are my very dear friend"

 

The devotee wants no reward in heaven or any such thing. For Bhakti (divine service) is it's own sweet reward. And a devotee is self satisfied with serving no matter where the Lord places them.

Uncountable souls have been evolving back to God for aeons of eternity according to their different Theistic receiving capacity they are awarded the different conceptions of divinity.We have no interest in Vox populi.

One pure devotee outweighs a million misconceived souls of whatever conviction, the important thing is to take the essence, Love God with every ounce of your being and likewise Love your fellow beings with all your heart and soul.

So the Vaisnava has no war with other religions many of us have evolved through Christianity, Judaism and Islam or Buddhism to find a higher taste in this path, like no other for us it offers the sweetest incomparable Bliss.

And we just don't wish to be caught in religious jihards and such, this is not the goal of spiritual life, rather our path is joyfully performed, singing and praising the Holy Names of God.

We understand every thing is in divine order and the Lord is in control.Those He wishes to touch in their heart with Grace He will direct thru the supersoul, When He sees that a particular soul is ready He directs them thru their intelligence to higher ground.

KRSNA is all attractive and the vision He bestows of His Beauty, to the devotee is incomparable.

Even one of the founders of this movement in the 16th century came from a Muslim background and became it's Nam acharya i.e. a perfect example of a pure devotee of the Lord. So his Islamic background prepared him to become a vaisnava, you can read this account of Hari das Thakur in The book 'Chaitanya Charitamrtam.' It is a very beautiful true story not a myth, it can bring tears to your eyes.

 

So many use this "fastest growing" line. But personally I just see it as a little insecurity. Come and join my team it's the biggest you betta get with us because we are going to take over the world. It's all in Krsnas hands my friend. Don't worry. The environment is friendly, everything isn't the enemy.

Conquer or be conquered. This philosophy just breeds fear.

 

Yes freedom of insult is a reality these days and if that is the game you are playing then you won't make a very good example for your cause. What I'm saying for your own good is to not insult what others accept as the Word of God or God Himself may not be pleased with you. Plus if you don't observe the ettiquette of this forum you may find yourself blocked from participation. So if you want to be immature by insulting Holy Books, you are only revealing your own nature.It's far better to benefit from your communications here in this neighbourhood.

 

People like Hitler had an ugly end and a bad reputation, his arrogance reaped its' own just reward, not a very convincing example.

[Guest guest]

“For example, the idea of the eternal hell i.e. infinite punishment for finite sins, is completely unacceptable when you have an all-merciful God or that when both animals and humans are conscious then how do humans have souls and animals don't have; or that all humans are being punished for the sin of Adam/Eve and so on.”

 

That is a good example of a common misconception. Let me explain: In Islam, Allah is not ‘all-merciful’ as you put it. Even in the Holy Quran, nowhere does it state this, but in fact, it always says: ‘Oft-forgiving, most-merciful.’ Never totally merciful.

Now this may seem slightly barbaric to non-Islamists, but to me it makes complete sense. No one is exempt from sin – by this I mean that every human being sins. That is human nature: to be human is to be imperfect and to sin etc. This is why we believe that the Prophet Mohammad also sinned like any other human being (although much less than others) and that Jesus also sinned because he was a human being (the Christians do not agree with this since they see Jesus as god). Every human being in the history of the world has sinned, and so therefore shall be punished for that sin. Does that make sense to you? That you are punished for your wrong actions. As such, there is no complete and utter salvation at first. Every human being shall experience death. And on the Day of Judgement (where God shall judge and punish for the sins of each and every human being) will recompense be paid. He who is saved from the fire of hell and admitted to paradise will have achieved the ultimate objective in Islam – to attain eternal life, in bliss in the worship of God. “For the life of this world is but goods and chattels of deception."

Those who “then seeketh pardon of God, will find God Forgiving, Merciful.”

But there are some things that God will never forgive:

“God forgiveth not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him.”

“Those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, God will never pardon them.”

“Those who disbelieve and deal in wrong, God will never forgive them.

“Those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and then die disbelievers, Allah surely will not pardon them.”

Also, it is in Christianity that the concept of original sin (people being punished for Adam and Eve’s sins) exists. Not in Islam. Lastly, once again, in Islam animals are considered to have souls. You might be getting that mixed up with some other religion.

 

“And we just don't wish to be caught in religious jihards and such, this is not the goal of spiritual life, rather our path is joyfully performed, singing and praising the Holy Names of God.”

 

You show your total lack of understanding for Jihad, mon ami. It infuriates me that you don’t understand something, and perceive it to be something other than it is, but still say it. You don’t even know what Jihad is (and besides that you can’t spell it right). Let me explain in as simple words as possible: There are three different uses of Jihad –the first and foremost is the inner struggle, that to bring yourself closer to God through prayer and mediation, the second if Muslim lands are under attack, and thirdly if Muslims are being persecuted.

In the cases of Iraq and Afghanistan, and Kashmir, the second and third apply. Besides this, it is hard praising the Holy Names of God when there is an American tank positioned outside your house.

 

“Conquer or be conquered. This philosophy just breeds fear.”

 

That philosophy keeps us alive. It is not in the nature of human beings to live with one another peacefully. Thousands of years of history is evidence for that, not to mention the horrific wars that occurred in the last century alone (WWI, WW2, Cold War, Korean War, Boer War, Gulf War etc). But apart from this though, I do not understand the relevance of this quotation to the discussion at hand. Surely you do not imply that this is happening anywhere in the world today, or that if it is it had anything to do with Islam at all, are you?

 

“Even one of the founders of this movement in the 16th century came from a Muslim background and”

 

I do not recognise this ‘Muslim’ as such. Any Muslim who deviates from the rightful path is not a Muslim any longer whatsoever, was in fact never a Muslim at all. Islam is the ultimate religion – Muslims who claim they are such, and then go and found another religion were never Muslims at all.

 

“What I'm saying for your own good is to not insult what others accept as the Word of God or God Himself may not be pleased with you. Plus if you don't observe the ettiquette of this forum you may find yourself blocked from participation. So if you want to be immature by insulting Holy Books, you are only revealing your own nature.It's far better to benefit from your communications here in this neighbourhood.”

 

And I suppose you’ve never insulted Islam in your life? Etiquette of this forum? Are you sane? When did I insult any book, as you so bluntly and blindly put it? Read my posts why don’t you? Where have I insulted anyone or anything? What neighbourhood? And how would I be immature by insulting the so-called word of god that you mention? The Word of God for me is nothing but the Holy Quran, and for me to have disdain on any other book would be perfectly alright for me. But you level these accusations against me when I’ve not said or done anything that insults the Hindu religion!

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

Dear muslim guest, i am only trying to understand your position and since you have pointed some errors i would like you to clarify them.

 

 

Now this may seem slightly barbaric to non-Islamists, but to me it makes complete sense. No one is exempt from sin – by this I mean that every human being sins. That is human nature: to be human is to be imperfect and to sin etc.

 

 

 

That no one is exempt from sin is okay, but could you elaborate on the definition of sin (i mean how do even whom you would consider perfect muslims sin).

The earlier part of your assertion "slightly barbaric" is a gross understatement. Are you sure you understand the meaning of eternal (as we do)? Eternal means infinite, so how does punishment by God measure up to any number of sins one has committed. Eternal is not some trillion years (age of one cycle of creation); however large number you can *imagine* (10000... or 10^10^10^10... to fill the whole universe) is precisely zero when compared to eternal.

If you really think that God can put anyone into hell for eternity then i am afraid he cannot be identified with Allah.

 

Another question is that what all do the muslims consider as eternal and what not. Of course, Allah is eternal without doubt. Were the souls created at some point in time; are they eternal; is this material world eternal; where is the hell situated -- in material world or somewhere else.

 

 

Also, it is in Christianity that the concept of original sin (people being punished for Adam and Eve’s sins) exists. Not in Islam.

 

 

 

Okay, this part is clear. Then what do muslims believe the reason for original falldown of all other humans; the reason for falldown of Adam/Eve i suppose is the same as in christians.

 

The other question would be what muslims believe the reason for different humans being born in different conditions. Some are born in good muslim households who would attain paradise mostly, while the others who are born to say primitive people who have no chance of knowing about Allah are destined to go to eternal hell by default. Also the fact that billions who were born before Hazrat Muhammad (or Jesus) will also go to eternal hell. How do muslims understand this?

 

 

Lastly, once again, in Islam animals are considered to have souls.

 

 

 

This one i have not heard before. Are you sure of this? I mean could you confirm this (say from some scholar) so that we may not get some disinformation. thanks.

If this is the case then i am surprised that you were opposing that soul cannot go into body of worm, for you believe animals too have souls. Or you mean that animal souls are different from human souls -- am i right in coming to this conclusion? The other questions in this relation would then be:

Why then do the muslims eat meat?

What do muslims believe of the fate of all the animal souls? From other things the conclusion would be that all go to eternal hell. Is it correct?

 

The meaning of Jihad, i think, everybody understands. It would be futile to discuss this any further, and anyways this is out of this thread. The question that comes to mind is how muslims are required to treat non-muslims (who are not their "enemies"); also if some muslim thoroughly mistreats a non-muslim who is not an enemy what is his fate etc.

 

 

I do not recognise this ‘Muslim’ as such. Any Muslim who deviates from the rightful path is not a Muslim any longer whatsoever, was in fact never a Muslim at all. Islam is the ultimate religion – Muslims who claim they are such, and then go and found another religion were never Muslims at all.

 

 

 

Dear friend, you do not even consider that your (or all the muslims) recognition has no value. It is the recognition by Allah which matters. You do not even know me and yet claim to know the mind of Allah on the basis of having read a book. The unfortunate thing that can be seen is that the attitude of muslims has not changed even a wee-bit from that time. As for ultimate religion thing is concerned, let Allah decide this; unless you have talked to Allah how can you come to this conclusion except as an emotional sentiment. I have no hesitation in saying that Allah is my Lord, and i want to become His servant but i would be an arrogant fool to consider myself having enough intelligence or worth to be able to understand the words of God in the scriptures (either Quran/Gita/Bible); my only hope of understanding them is through the medium of other God-realized souls.

[Guest guest]

As Jesus stated, "By their fruits you shall know them"

We have our view, by the Grace of our God what is good fruit and what is not, and your conceptions of Islam are not attractive or appealing to me personally. I guess that's the beauty of free will, maybe it's just the way you and so many others interpret and present it.

But I feel you need to do some more homework if you want to convince others of your paths merit.

Excuse my ignorance of your language and it's meaning, I don't claim to be scholar of your teachings just as you are not one of ours. I'm quite happy and content with the path I've been directed to thank you.

 

The personality I was talking about found a higher example of Love, mercy and compassion than he had previously experienced in his earlier spiritual evolution as a muslim, which attracted him to this path. Simple, there is far more to Gods kingdom than is contained within the teachings of Islam and the holy Quran, altho it may well have many answers for many souls, to others it gives limited satisfaction. No problem.

 

And I suppose you’ve never insulted Islam in your life? Etiquette of this forum? Are you sane? When did I insult any book, as you so bluntly and blindly put it? Read my posts why don’t you? Where have I insulted anyone or anything? What neighbourhood? And how would I be immature by insulting the so-called word of god that you mention? The Word of God for me is nothing but the Holy Quran, and for me to have disdain on any other book would be perfectly alright for me. But you level these accusations against me when I’ve not said or done anything that insults the Hindu religion!

 

Maybe you should open YOUR own eyes, read again, I didn't say you insulted the Bhagavad Gita I gave you a friendly warning NOT to insult it for it is considered Gods Word to the majority of Hindhus.

I don't know if your teachings ask you to respect others chosen spiritual path or not but it appears you have little regard for other great teachers of the Truth, if this is the case then this attitude will cause a lot of opposition from those with different convictions to yourself.

I wish you well

And may peace be with you

[Guest guest]

You’ve raised some interesting points here. Let me try to explain them one by one.

 

“but could you elaborate on the definition of sin.”

 

Sin is the deliberate violation of God’s law by thought, word or action.

What’s is God’s law? For me it is the Quran. For the Christians it is the Bible. For you it might be something else.

 

“The earlier part of your assertion "slightly barbaric" is a gross understatement. Are you sure you understand the meaning of eternal (as we do)? Eternal means infinite, so how does punishment by God measure up to any number of sins one has committed.

If you really think that God can put anyone into hell for eternity then i am afraid he cannot be identified with Allah.”

 

Leave your assumption that the soul is eternal for one moment, and that it is reincarnated. Now, the Abrahamic faiths have been around for Millennia. These all say: Worship God, do as he says and go to paradise. If you do not then you will go to eternal hell.

 

Human beings have had thousands of years of warning about hell. So, for those who continue to sin, despite those warnings, who rape, steal, plunder, murder, hell is rightfully their destination. By assuming that eternal hell is a bad thing, you insult the intelligence of humans. How many warnings does it take for one human being to understand that if he does not do good in this world, then he will get his punishment in the next, and it will be eternal punishment. Now, I don’t know how you think or what you believe, but to me that makes perfect sense. Hell is a deterrent to criminals to stop committing crime; if it still does not make them stop, then they their rightful destination is hell. God had warned us about this for tens of thousands of years. Even before the Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Christianity, Islam), early man had an instinctive knowledge that there was a higher being, and that if you did not do good, then that higher being would not be pleased with you and punish you.

 

“Another question is that what all do the muslims consider as eternal and what not. Of course, Allah is eternal without doubt. Were the souls created at some point in time; are they eternal; is this material world eternal; where is the hell situated -- in material world or somewhere else.”

 

Let me simply state: Allah is the only eternal one. Everything else is not eternal, in that it can be destroyed or stopped. Souls are created at the time of birth. There are many passages in the Quran that state this. I am sorry I cannot answer your question about hell’s location. I really don’t know. But I don’t think it would be in the material world, probably in a lower astral plane, or something along similar lines.

And this world is not eternal. As mentioned in the Quran:

 

“That which you have been given is but a fleeting comfort of this life. Better and more enduring is that which Allah has for those who believe and put their trust in Him; who avoid gross sins and indecencies and, when angered, are willing to forgive; who obey their Lord, attend to their prayers, and conduct their affairs by mutual consent; who bestow in alms a part of that which We have given them and, when oppressed, seek to redress their wrongs.”

 

“Okay, this part is clear. Then what do muslims believe the reason for original falldown of all other humans; the reason for falldown of Adam/Eve i suppose is the same as in christians.”

 

The Fall of Adam and Eve occurred because of man’s inherent nature to sin, and because of Satan the tempter.

 

“The other question would be what muslims believe the reason for different humans being born in different conditions. Some are born in good muslim households who would attain paradise mostly, while the others who are born to say primitive people who have no chance of knowing about Allah are destined to go to eternal hell by default. Also the fact that billions who were born before Hazrat Muhammad (or Jesus) will also go to eternal hell. How do muslims understand this?”

 

I do not understand the meaning of your question. Indeed many are born into different conditions. But I thought that would be obvious. A poor family in Africa will give birth to a child who will obviously also be poor. A rich one in Britain will give birth to a child who will have all the resources etc. That is why in Islam, it is obligatory to spread the word of Allah, so that people in all corners of the globe know about Islam, and can convert to it if they like. And this idea about poor people going to hell by default, it’s not true. If a poor person praises Allah regularly, shapes his life around the Quran, then he will also go to heaven. Just as if a rich person sinned, then he would go to hell. All Muslims are equal in Islam, whether rich or poor, black or white, Easterner or Westerner etc. The billions who were born before Mohammad and Jesus, will be judged according to their deeds. Just because you do not have a prophet preaching the word of God, that does not necessarily mean that you still cannot do good, does it?

 

I am sorry, mon ami, I was mistaken, from what I’ve just researched, animals do not have souls in Islam.

 

“What do muslims believe of the fate of all the animal souls? From other things the conclusion would be that all go to eternal hell. Is it correct?”

 

No. That is incorrect. From my own knowledge, I think I read this somewhere, animals have their own paradise.

 

“The question that comes to mind is how muslims are required to treat non-muslims (who are not their "enemies"); also if some muslim thoroughly mistreats a non-muslim who is not an enemy what is his fate etc.”

 

A common enough question. And I give you the following quotations that should answer your question:

 

"...If anyone killed a person not in retaliation for murder or to spread mischief in the land, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind. And (likewise) if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole of mankind."

"Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion, nor drove you out of your homes. Indeed, Allah loves those who deal with equity"

 

This means that all suicide bombings, hostages, killing of innocents are strictly forbidden. Although some Muslims do this in the Middle East, let me remind you, if you want to learn about Islam read the Quran, not the actions of the few renegade minority.

 

“Dear friend, you do not even consider that your (or all the muslims) recognition has no value. It is the recognition by Allah which matters.”

 

May all praises be that of Allah’s. Indeed, that is true. My recognition has no value whatsoever in front of that of the Almighty’s. I was merely stating that this Muslim, so-called, I do not believe him to be one, since a Muslims is: one who believes in the Almighty Allah, the one, the eternal, and that Mohammad (peace be upon him) is Allah’s messenger.

 

“As for ultimate religion thing is concerned, let Allah decide this; unless you have talked to Allah how can you come to this conclusion except as an emotional sentiment.”

 

My friend, Allah has decided this:

 

"The Religion in the sight of Allah is Islam."

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (Submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost."

 

And many times I have experienced this from my Lord, that indeed Islam is the true path.

 

“your conceptions of Islam are not attractive or appealing to me personally.”

 

My perceptions of Islam? And what would those be, my friend? Which ones do not appeal to you? For I have got these perceptions out of the Holy Quran, and if you do not like them then you do not like the whole religion of Islam. Now this does not really bother me at all, but it does bother me that you would think my faith to be less strong than it is.

 

“But I feel you need to do some more homework if you want to convince others of your paths merit.”

 

I need not convince anyone else. I am convinced and that is all that matters. However, if you would care to tell me what part you need convincing in, I can indeed do my ‘homework,’ to better ‘convince’ you.

 

“Simple, there is far more to Gods kingdom than is contained within the teachings of Islam and the holy Quran, altho it may well have many answers for many souls, to others it gives limited satisfaction. No problem.”

 

Are you a Christian? I’m just curious? Because what you state as the Kingdom of God, I do not understand it. Explain it to me, and if I recognise it as a genuine thing, then I’ll tell you if it is in the Holy Quran or not.

 

I don’t usually like to hive out URL’s but since there is a lot of material there and I can’t summarise all of it:

 

http://www.muhammad.net/biblelp/biblelp10.html

 

“I don't know if your teachings ask you to respect others chosen spiritual path or not but it appears you have little regard for other great teachers of the Truth, if this is the case then this attitude will cause a lot of opposition from those with different convictions to yourself.”

 

Islam says: Let There Be No Compulsion in Religion. Muslims are meant to theologically engage different religious scholars in debate.

Our teachings do not say anything of the matter.

 

Do you recognise Mohammad or Abrahim or Moses or Jesus as great teachers?