GALVA

[Jagat]

I never thought I would see the day, but I guess it was inevitable - <a href=http://www.geocities.com/galva108/> Gay and Lesbian Vaishnava Association</a>.

[Gauracandra]

Here is a serious question relating to the relative sinfulness of activities. If you were to ask me my opinion (and I can't support this with Sastra, its just my opinion) what is worse homosexuality or meateating I would say meat eating is far more sinful. Homosexuality is considered sinful, but is just sexual pleasure among consenting adults. Meat eating actively causes pain and suffering to other creatures of God. Thus I would say to eat meat and cause pain is worse than homosexuality.

 

I saw Boy George on MTV a few months back wearing tilak and in his home were pictures of Krsna and a deity of Srila Prabhupada. He obviously has an attraction to the philosophy. He is gay but vegetarian. If you were to ask me who was more pure Pat Robertson (a meat eating Christian theologian) or Boy George (a homosexual attracted to Vaisnavism) I would side with Boy George (all other things being equal). The funny thing is gays are less than 1% of the population while meat eating occur among 98% of the population. But I think many devotees would rather focus on that 1% because its easier. There were some devotees who embraced Boy George and others on the internet who attacked him for his homosexuality. But like JNDas put in another posting, we should not be criticized for being dirty, we should be praised for making whatever attempts we can. Just a few thoughts.

 

Gauracandra

[Maitreya]

I feel it is a horrendous mistake, even and outrage that they would link the two terms Vaisnava and Gay in the title for their organization.

 

I am drowning in my own sinful nature most of the time,but not proudly.

 

I understand your point Gaurachandra on relative sinfulness and don't know how to weigh one against the other.

 

The difference here is they are trying to legitimize their deviant behavior and drag it[pun] into Vaisnava society.

 

How about:

 

Krishna's Cow Eatters Association or

 

Sadomasochistic Vaisnava Society

 

Every soul has a right to chant Krishna's names.But I feel these people have a different or at leasted a mixed agenda.They are trying for acceptance of their demonic behavior into the world of Vaisnavism and society at large.

 

Here is a case where don't ask don't tell would be appropriate.

 

I ran into this same site a couple of weeks back just searching on the word vaisnava.Now that they are bringing it out into to public awareness they have earned a public condemnation from the Vaisnava community at large.

 

If they can't stop their behavior then they should at least keep it in the closet.And may they please shut the door.

 

 

 

[Gauracandra]

Actually you are right. I was thinking purely on the relative sinfulness and not thinking about what was being associated with the name Vaisnava. As soon as you said "Krishna's Cow Eatters Association" I understood what you meant. We can objectively acknowledge our faults, but to turn such activities and glorify them, or suggest they are sastrically approved is another matter. Right now the homosexual lobby is constantly attacking Catholics, like trying to force themselves into the Saint Patricks day parade. Imagine that happening at Ratha Yatra. So I can clearly see your point and agree.

 

Gauracandra

[Krishnananda dasa]

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

Right now the homosexual lobby is constantly attacking Catholics, like trying to force themselves into the Saint Patricks day parade. Imagine that happening at Ratha Yatra...

 

 

They haven't had to FORCE themselves into Ratha Yatra. Bhavananda, Kirtanananda, Rohini Kumar, and many other including sannyasis and gurus, have found their place in ISKCON.

 

For that matter, one could say the same about meat-eaters. Ramesvara was already eating meat by the time of his final Ratha Yatra in ISKCON. And there have been others.

 

Have you ever lived in an ISKCON bramachari ashram? If you had to kick out all the homosexuals, you'd lose a HUGE proportion of the inmates. I'd venture to guess that the proportion of homosexuals among ISKCON brahmacharis and sannyasis is greater than that among Catholic priests.

 

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

Right now the homosexual lobby is constantly attacking Catholics, like trying to force themselves into the Saint Patricks day parade. Imagine that happening at Ratha Yatra. So I can clearly see your point and agree.

 

Gauracandra

Hey Gaurachandra, this group is based in Homolulu*, which used to have a Ratha Yatra in Waikiki.I wonder if there isn't already some attempt at this.

 

Anybody from the islands on this station?

 

*That was an honest typo, I swear.Too funny to delete.

 

 

[makhanmisri]

 

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

"Homosexuality is considered sinful, but is just sexual pleasure among consenting adults. Meat eating actively causes pain and suffering to other creatures of God."

 

I don't know about this; it might be good to consult sastra. Judging from the logic of Bhagavata 3.31.1, it looks incorrect to postulate that homosex doesn't check the karmic progress of others just as much as does animal slaughter. In fact, since a human being (or potential human being) is a higher species than an animal, it looks worse. But at any rate, illicit sex is extremely sinful (cf. Bhagavata 5.14.30), and extremely contaminating too (it is the epitome of uncleanliness). Homosexuality presimably involves wasting semen, which is also sinful for similar reasons (Bhagavata 7.12). Illicit sex in general does a real number on one's antahkarana (i.e., subtle body); it's hard to wash this vasana off, which perpetuates more of the same.

 

MDd

 

MDd

[theist]

This is strange.I went to their site to see what it was and following a link the sponser claims to be Tripurari's disciple.

 

What is up with this?

[nine9]

Originally posted by theist:

This is strange.I went to their site to see what it was and following a link the sponser claims to be Tripurari's disciple.

 

What is up with this?

Yes I am Maharaja's disciple... Why don't you just ask me then, prabhu? You can e-mail me at rama.kesava.bvts@pamho.net.

 

Ys., Rama Kesava dasa

 

 

[This message has been edited by nine9 (edited 04-29-2002).]

[theist]

Rama Kesava das,

 

Thanks for replying.No need to have a private conversation.

 

On reading this thread I agree with those that oppose linking homosexuality and vaisnavism.

 

As I am coming to understand vaisnavism, I am seeing that it refers to the activation of the souls inherent propensity to serve Krishna in selfless love.It is beyond all designations such as hetero or homosexual.

 

Of course many of us will fall under the classification of prakrta vaisnavas or sakama vaisnavas.Those terms strike me as the generousity of the realized vaisnavas towards those of us who are in transition.No need for more.

 

The point is why start adding any kind of designations onto the word vaisnava?It will only be divisive in the devotee body at large and confusing to the public in general.

 

A gay faction is a major mistake as I see it.

 

I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

 

Hare Krishna

[theist]

niner niner where are you?do you copy? over.

 

Ram Kesava prabhu.I am still curious about this.Others may be as well.

 

Why do you feel the need for this?Is Tripurari giving sanction to homosexuality?I can't believe that.What's the story here?

 

[Bhaktavasya]

 

What I find appallingly hyocritical with some of these comments is that if Elton John or K.D. Lang came out tomorrow and said they chant Hare Krishna, the threads would be hopping with "Jai Elton prabhu! "Our Godsister; K.D. Lang!" Teams of devotees would be dispatched to various concert venues with offerings of maha-prasadam & flower garlands, with the ultimate 'score' of the evening being asked to sing on stage with either or both of them. They would have to be pro-GALVA, so proclaimations of them as sinners would be dismissed as 'southern baptist-style preaching'. In time, it wouldn't be surprising to hear that Tripurari Swami was giving them initiation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nine9]

Originally posted by theist:

niner niner where are you?do you copy? over.

I'm here... just very, very busy. I hardly get time to come on this website, hence I gave you my e-mail. It wasn't to create a "private" conversation, but to give you the opportunity to correspond if you wanted.

 

We've been over this issue a million times. Of course no-one is saying that we should live rampant lives full of carnal pleasure, but yes, Maharaja does have gay disciples, and recognises them as such.

 

In an ideal situation you would see us, just as you see your heterosexual peers. We have the same problems with lust, and EXACTLY the same duty to fight and abate it.

 

Just go and read the GALVA website if you have any questions. The whole point's not to create factionism. Ideally we should all just get on with our sadhana, without persecuting each other, and without fear of persecution because of what people THINK we get up to. My point is that asides from what sexual perversions of the material world they enjoy gay and straight people are more-or-less the same. the appelation is only there to give shelter to those who have been persecute.

 

A question, though: what's the harm of having nice, celibate, gay couples serving together in Krsna Consciousness?

 

Ys., Rama Kesava dasa

rama.kesava.bvts@pamho.net

 

[theist]

 

Originally posted by nine9:

We've been over this issue a million times. Of course no-one is saying that we should live rampant lives full of carnal pleasure, but yes, Maharaja does have gay disciples, and recognises them as such.

 

That he has disciples that have homosexual tendancies was not really the question.KC is open for all souls.I am curious if he is giving sanction to homosexual marriage or unions or couplings etc.Sanctified by a priest means a blessed union in the eyes of God.

In an ideal situation you would see us, just as you see your heterosexual peers. We have the same problems with lust, and EXACTLY the same duty to fight and abate it.

 

Seeing with equal vision means seeing the soul.But on the level we are speaking by taking on the name Gay and Lesbian Vaisnava Association you are setting yourselves apart and thus creating a faction, No doubt about it.

The whole point's not to create factionism.

 

From Random House Dictionary:

Faction 1. A group or clique within a larger group, party government,organization, or the like.

 

You clearly have created a faction.

 

Everyone chooses friends they get along with better even within a large group.But you have established being homosexuality as something to set you apart from other vaisnavas.You clearly have established a gay faction.

A question, though: what's the harm of having nice, celibate, gay couples serving together in Krsna Consciousness?

 

If you to ask me what's wrong with homosexuality then I can assume you won'tunderstand the answer.Nor do I want to even get into it.

 

We just disagree.

 

My curiousity really goes to Tripurari's stance on the issue because of his influence in spreading vaisnavism in the West.

 

Hare Krishna

theist

 

 

[Amara_dasa]

Hare Krishna! All glories to Srila Prabhupada and all Vaishnavas!

 

Thank you for your interest in GALVA. We have been up now for one year, and the site has been very successful. Many gay and lesbian devotees have been encouraged to take up or resume their devotional practices, and many straight devotees have expressed their support and learned about the Vedic concept of a 'third gender,' enabling them to deal with their gay and lesbian godbrothers/sisters in a more realistic and compassionate manner.

 

Of course ideally, there would be no need for a separate GALVA group, but until gays and lesbians are treated equally and kindly by the entire Vaishnava community there will be a need for this type of support group. Originally, we started with one E-group but were so successful so fast that we grew into four separate E-groups to accommodate everyone. This is all due to the compassion and mercy of Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya, both of whom I am always praying to for guidance.

 

I think some of you may be confusing "homosex," the sinful practice among heterosexual males (i.e. prisons, rape, etc., as described in the 3rd Canto of the Bhagavatam) with the natural third gender behavior of "tritiya-prakriti" gays and lesbians. In Vedic culture, people of the third sex were welcomed to all religious ceremonies and would bestow their blessings upon all. This practice is clearly described by Srila Prabhupada and continues even today. It has nothing to do with meat-eating, abortion, divorce, etc.

 

GALVA is not based in Hawaii but is an international organization with most of its members in California, the UK and India. We will continue to be dedicated to the teachings of Lord Caitanya, the importance of all-inclusiveness within His mission, and the Vedic concept of a natural third gender.

 

Jaya Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga!

Jaya Sri-Sri Radhe-Syama!

 

Your servant,

 

Amara dasa

GALVA 108

http://www.geocities.com/galva108

[theist]

Thumbs down on your third gender speculation.

 

But I do wish you well in your KC practice and I hope you wish me the same.

 

Hare Krsna

 

theist

[theist]

Rama Kesava das mention 'We've been over this a million times" so I check the archives and he was right.It is an old topic.But I would like to repost one from that thread as it appears they are trying to draw legitimacy from Srila Prabhupada and the Vedas.The article was from jndas and I forgot who the quote is from.

 

quote:

--

Of course, the study of gender and sexuality is a material subject, like astrology or ayur-veda...

--

 

I disagree with this statement. The vedangas (limbs of Vedic knowledge such as Jyotisha, etc.) and corollary knowledge of the Vedas is apara-vidya, or material knowledge. Whereas material knowledge in general, such as what is being discussed above, is classified as avidya, or ignorance. In contrast to this, only the Vedanta-sutras and like-minded scriptures such as Srimad Bhagavatam are para-vidya, or transcendental knowledge.

 

A second point is that what is described in the Puranic texts is not homosexuality, as is conceived of today. They are people born with physical defects that make them neither male nor female (or both).

 

To compare them to the homosexuals of today, such as found in a place like San Francisco is way off.

 

And the reference from Srimad Bhagavatam refers to "nartakas", which simply means dancers. It has no connection with homosexuals. Nartaka is a name of Krishna, "nartaka-gopala", and he is found in Udupi. It refers to Gopala the dancer, not to Gopala the homosexual. We have two related words, one is "nartana" which means dancing, and the other is "nartaka", which means "one who dances". It is very clear and direct.

 

The Bhagavatam verse states:

 

nata-nartaka-gandharvah

suta-magadha-vandinah

gayanti cottamashloka-

caritany adbhutani ca

 

"Expert dramatists, artists, dancers, singers, historians, genealogists and learned speakers all gave their respective contributions, being inspired by the superhuman pastimes of the Lord. Thus they proceeded on and on."

 

The listing of dramatists, dancers, singers, puranic reciters, historians, and learned speakers together in a list make it quite clear that "nartaka" is refering to nothing except plain old dancers.

 

To misuse such statements to propogate our own speculations is certainly an injustice, and is not a work of scholarship. To put our own teachings into what we read and hear is sravanam and kirtanam influenced by the rajo-guna. This is described by Lord Kapila in the third canto.

 

We even find that the soul is referred to as "nartaka" in the Shiva sutras (9):

 

nartaka aatmaa

 

"The self is a dancing actor."

 

It does not mean the soul (atma) is a homosexual.

 

Nartana is the art of dancing, and those that follow it are nartakas. Generally those who are born as eunuchs (physically lacking either male or female sex), take to feminine arts such as dance. We even find this in todays reflection of homosexuals. Thus Prabhupada mentions in the Chaitanya Charitamrita purport that eunuchs took to dancing as a livelyhood, they didn't get "married" to other eunichs for maintenance.

 

Having said that, hardly 0.1% of nartakas (dancers) are eunuchs. Most nartakas are actually traditional brahmanas.

 

The true third sex is to be free from attachment to either men or women and to be situated on the paramahamsa platform of pure devotional service. Anything else is just a confusion over the two sexes.

 

As far as a separate "Gay and Lesbian Gaudiya Vaishnava Society", is that religion?

 

Acyutananda: Yes. Two homosexuals were married by a priest.

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Tamala Krsna: Now they have a church where the priests are homosexuals and the attending people are homosexual.

 

Prabhupada: Hm?

 

Tamala Krsna: Now they have churches for homosex. That means the priest is a homosexual, and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals.

 

Prabhupada: Just see. Is that religion?

 

 

 

[Amara_dasa]

Here are two articles that go deeply into this subject matter:

 

"Please Stop Misusing Quotes From Srila Prabhupada to Discriminate Against Minorities!"

 

http://www.nine9.ukshells.co.uk/cgi-bin/galva-idx.pl?node=galva-quotes

 

"'I Do Not Know Exactly...'

Srila Prabhupada's Statements on Homosexuality"

 

http://www.nine9.ukshells.co.uk/cgi-bin/galva-idx.pl?node=galva-sp-know

 

-Amara dasa

 

[theist]

Prabhupada's words are clear enough so I'll just skip the articles.Someone else may be interested I realize.

 

Hare Krsna

 

I just wanted to add that I don't want to go back and forth on this.I won't change my view and I doubt you will either.

 

I still want to know just one thing.Is Tripurari sanctioning these marriages or unions?

 

 

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 05-05-2002).]

[Amara_dasa]

 

Dear Theist,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada and all Vaishnavas.

 

I agree with you that we do not need to go back and forth on this!

 

To answer your original question I can refer you to this short quote from H.H. Tripurari Maharaja that pretty much sums up his view on this subject matter:

 

http://www.nine9.ukshells.co.uk/cgi-bin/galva-idx.pl?node=galva-tripurari

 

Wishing you peace and success in Krishna consciousness,

 

Amara dasa

 

 

[premananda]

Hari Bol!

 

Just checked out the GALVA site and found it quite interesting.

I think sex is a disturbance for a person who wants to realize his/her spiritual identity and nature. The worldy sexual desire will become very much weakened and ultimately vanish as the soul begins to relish meditating on the pastimes of Sri Sri Radha-Krishna and Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu.

It doesn´t matter what kind of "sexual" you think you are, the main thing is to remember and realize that you are actually an eternal soul, worship Radha-Krishna and become Their servant.

 

 

[nine9]

Dear theist,

 

Pranams. I see Amara has beaten me to it, and summed up Swami's position on this. Thanks Amara!

 

Originally posted by theist:

A second point is that what is described in the Puranic texts is not homosexuality, as is conceived of today. They are people born with physical defects that make them neither male nor female (or both).

 

To compare them to the homosexuals of today, such as found in a place like San Francisco is way off.

 

You actually bring up a very interesting and valid point here, that I will now have to address on the website.

 

True, the gay men of today are not completely the same as the Puranic definition of the third sex. Most of them are engaged in violent and depraved acts of debauchery, sinful activities, meat-eating, alcoholism, etc. GALVA does not really seek to argue about them. As with all things, the GALVA point of view is an idealised one. Just as we assume in the definition of devotee that he or she is faithfully adhering to KC in both thoughts and deeds, we should bear in mind that the "gay relationships" in Krsna Consciousness, that we present are idealised ones. The third gender of the Puranas maybe did include those segments of society, who bsed their relationships on lust and desire alone, but as they neglected to sanction them, so too do we make our presentation one of a celibate homosexual couple, in which the sexual desire has been sublimated and replaced by mutual benefit for devotional service.

 

There is too much assumption, still as ever, on what people get up to. People automatically assume that homosexuals are promiscuous, or that those couples who are in Krsna Consciousness are basing their relationships on satisfying their carnal urges every five minutes. This what I meant. The fundamental point here is that we should rather assume that if someone says they are sticking to the rules, that they are, and we should believe them. If a homosexual couple comes to Krsna Consciousness, fully understanding and accepting that they will be expected to be celibate (as they cannot have children) -- as was the Puranic tritya-prakrti -- then they should be seen on an equal footing as heterosexuals.

 

I think we actually agree on far more than we both give each credit for. Anyways, prabhu, it's been nice to have this talk...and I appreciate your candour.

 

Thanks for stimulating "ze little grey cells", and Hari bol!

 

Ys., Rama Kesava dasa

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Part of the problem was Amara's insistence that it was natural for the "third sex" people to engage in certain sexual activities and that it wasn't sinful. I had quoted his paper on this point and brought it up in the old thread way back then.

 

The topic is pretty much discussed out, so I won't add much to it at this time.

 

My entire reply can be found at:

 

http://www.indiadivine.com/galva-reply.htm

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-06-2002).]

[nine9]

Originally posted by jndas:

Part of the problem was Amara's insistence that it was natural for the "third sex" people to engage in certain sexual activities and that it wasn't sinful.

Good point. I will go away and think about this... maybe it's something I need to discuss with him.

 

(I will admit that I never agreed with your retranslation of viyoni, but I posted my reasons elsewhere, and that is a past topic of debate.)

 

Ys., Rama Kesava dasa

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by nine9 (edited 05-06-2002).]