World Trade Centre

[recruit]

Originally posted by Tarun:

World Trade Centre As It Was

...

In no way can a fire and an aeroplane hitting the towers as high as the WTC's towers were hit lead to the collapse of the lower structure. The kinetic energy from the hits can not have been the reason for the collapse of the towers. (Reason, see above.)

 

From watching television pictures and film of the collapsing towers, I noticed one of the towers collapsed from above, while the other collapsed from below the fire. Such collapses could be compared to what would happen if the bearing structures were weakened in an explosion. There is no way in which a fire caused by aero fuel could cause such a collapse!!!

...

 

Very Interesting. I would like to add some further information to your excellent piece here.

 

I once watched a documentary on imploding buildings. They do this when a building must be torn down. The expert on the narration explained that it was very very tricky business to set the explosives just right so the tower would collapse inwardly, folding downward and keeping the rubble and debris within the safety perimeters they mapped out before the job, to avoid collateral damage and injury in the surrounding area. The explosives were shown set strategically throughout the structure, on every floor. They showed a successful collapse, by detonation, of a tall skyscraper. When I saw the twin towers collapse, live, I saw exactly the same type of implosion as I saw on this documentary. I IMMEDIATELY suspected that explosives had been strategically placed throughout the towers to orchestrate the collapse, which it certainly appeared to have been unable to be caused by the aircraft given how and where they struck and exploded in the buildings. It never made sense to me how the towers collapsed, given the apparent source of the implosion, the aircrafts crashing into them. Your analysis clarifies this even further, but I think it is significant that it was obvious to the naked eye, that eye being intelligent and informed. What I can't fathom is why no one, NO ONE, has challenged the possibility of those planes actually causing the collapse. Surely there must be professionals all over who saw the collapse and could verify that the collapse could not have occured via the airplanes. Perhaps those professionals who could verify the impossibility of such a phenomenon are afraid for their lives. Very interesting about who was missing that morning!

 

Let Freedom Ring!

In Krsna We Trust!

[paul108]

http://people.aol.com/people/special/0,11859,174592-3,00.html

September 12, 2001

New York City

Louie Cacchioli, 51, is a firefighter assigned to Engine 47 in Harlem.

 

We were the first ones in the second tower after the plane struck. I was taking firefighters up in the elevator to the 24th floor to get in position to evacuate workers. On the last trip up a bomb went off. We think there was bombs set in the building. I had just asked another firefighter to stay with me, which was a good thing because we were trapped inside the elevator and he had the tools to get out.

 

There were probably 500 people trapped in the stairwell. It was mass chaos. The power went out. It was dark. Everybody was screaming. We had oxygen masks and we were giving people oxygen. Some of us made it out and some of us didn't. I know of at least 30 firefighters who are still missing. This is my 20th year. I am seriously considering retiring. This might have done it.

 

 

[Tarun]

Times of India ran a nice piece about the need for drastic humour during catastrophic times.

We could also add that piece to our "Clean Jokes" Forum.

I sent them this in response.

 

ZrI ZrI Guru-Gaurangau JayataH

 

Dear Times of India Personnel,

Greetings. NamaskAr.

Yes. I'm Manhattan-born (this time around), Amerikan (in this birth).

At first, post 9/11, Amerikan comedians were at a loss for words (jokes).

How can we laugh?

How can we make others laugh?

Now that our Foreign Policy's karma-phalam is hitting us head on, returning our way, what to do?

They had to adjust.

Unfortunately (or fortunately), there's still no hard evidence connecting anyone or group to WTC downfall.

Our most likely suspects are WTC owners who'll collect so much $insurance$, and then some.

Bushing himself may very well be involved.

Or was/is Bushit as naive as Raygun who supposedly didn't even know drugs & arms were being sold through the White House basement!?

Literally beneath his Majesty's California Feet!?

Actually Amerikan politricks is a total joke except for one thing:

people are suffering unnecessarily worldwide due to it/us.

One of India's greatest, most prolific saints (1874-1937) ZrIla BhaktisiddhAnta Sarasvati expressed our present day state of affairs as simply: "Cheaters & Cheated".

We're either cheating or being cheated, at every moment.

Kaliyuga means the Age of Quarrel & Hypocrisy.

Whatever they show us on TV, at least we can say that is not it.

MAyA means false.

mA means not, yA means that.

We're in mahAmAyA today, right now!

We're totally surrounded by mahAmAyA, Great Illusion.

What that vaiSyas or xatriya, businessman or politician is saying, at least I can know for sure, that is NOT it, NOT true.

So, brothers & sisters, is it any wonder we sometimes find hAsyas-rasa = humour our only immediate shelter???

Comic relief.

High-paid jokers.

When all else fails (a daily Kaliyuga occurrence), God (ZrI KRSNa Caitanya), Saints & Humour seem to shelter us best.

Yours in service to ViSNu & VaiSNav, TaruN KRSNa dAs

 

[Tarun]

World Trade Centre As It Was

 

In this letter I will take you behind the mystique of architectural design, and let you look into a few of the parameters used when designing buildings like the World Trade Center. If any of you are familiar with house-engineering please bear with me. I will not take you through the nitty gritty technicalities of engineering; I will just outline the basics of this discipline.

 

Before an engineer can start any calculation on a house the size of the WTC, he must agree with the owner on which priorities should be set regarding hazard risks. As I don't know which priorities the Jewish owners of WTC set, I will go by the priorities usually used among Aryan companies:

 

- human lives - loss of properties

 

- loss of money This means that the engineer should prioritize safety in view of design, so as to set the value of humans above all other priorities

 

- the building shall, if an emergency arises, be safe for all who are inside the building throughout the period of time necessary for evacuation.

 

The estimation of the time necessary for evacuation must take into account the size and number of staircases and emergency accesses. One should not count the number of elevators when calculating the escape time, because elevators rely on electricity and will not work; people get trapped when the power fails. Furthermore, one MUST turn off the electricity if the sprinkler system is working, the reason being that electricity combined with water is VERY dangerous.

 

When the above is completed, the engineer starts to look at the outside forces which will affect the building. Data for these forces are found in engineering handbooks. One uses the maximum force for the area in question. Forces such as:

 

- wind.

 

- snow.

 

- rain. This is a rain which the drainage system might not take away, and which might get stuck on the top of a structure.

 

- earthquake. As the WTC was a very large building, the engineer would use a 1000-year earthquake force, referring to the largest earthquake which might occur within a time span of 1000 years. As far as I know, that is the largest earthquake force there is.

 

- weight of anything which might be stored in or land on the house/building.

 

- forces from anything which might hit/ collide with the house/building or stored on the top of the building.

 

Rain and snow do not occur at the same time; one chooses which one has the largest force. These are the outside forces.

 

All above forces must be calculated as if they were occurring simultaneously when one designs a tall building/house.

 

Inside forces are:

 

- weight of persons in the house/building

 

- weight of each floor

 

- weight of machinery in house/building

 

Machinery and persons in a building are all and any machinery/persons which can be found on each floor. The weights are estimated based on average weights and the average number of persons.

 

One starts with designing the upper floor and adds each above floor to the weights as he goes down the building, i.e., floor number 20 carries all floors with machinery/persons above it, plus it's own weight. Each floor also carries the above forces as one moves downward.

 

Thus, the size and number of beams in each floor and wall increases as one descends in a tall building/house. This must occur even if each floor is designed to carry its own weight. Vertical beams are stronger the lower one descends in a tall building; this is also the case for the horizontal beams, as well as the cross beams.

 

One uses very high safety factors when designing tall buildings. Ordinary safety factors in house building is 2.5; I assume that the factor for the towers was 8 or even higher.

 

In very tall buildings one must make sure that there are no continuous ducts from top to bottom, not even elevator shafts or ventilation ducts, or ducts for electrical cables. These are safety precautions.

 

The sprinkler systems are designed to extinguish fires which might occur. The drainage pipes in the toilets are large enough to deplete water from the sprinkler systems; thus, one usually incorporates two or more independent sprinkler systems, depending upon the size of the building/house. Each system is designed to be able to cover 100% of the building, this being in case one or more of the systems fails to work.

 

The bearing beams and cross bars on each floor and between floors are fixed to each other with nuts and bolts; they are then isolated to prevent collapse under exposure to fire.

 

Concrete is used to cover beams and as a bearing structure. At this stage I find it prudent to inform you that tall buildings will move beneath the force of wind. A tall building must move with the wind - if it did not, it would break. The parameters of acceptable oscillation depend on what is allowed by state building committees.

 

Designing specifications of the WTC

 

I admit that I was neither an engineer of the company which constructed the building, nor a member of the architectural design team of the WTC. But I can, based on information gleaned from The New York Times, offer reliable comment on some of the specifications of the towers. They were designed to withstand hurricanes and fire in addition to collision with a Boeing 707 filled with passengers and fuel.

 

I assume that the towers also were designed to withstand earthquakes, this being dependent upon how often New York has experienced earthquakes.

 

Furthermore, the towers, each with a base of 62.5m X 62.5m, had a core, 40m X 30m. Contained within the core were elevator shafts and technical equipment. The core was designed to withstand a crash such as the one on September 11.

 

The bearing beams and cross bars on each floor and between floors were fixed to each other with nuts and bolts, then they were isolated with 3 centimeters of a mineral called Vermiculit, to withstand fire. The mineral protects the structural beams from collapsing when fire is in a room or on a floor. The mineral should withstand fire for a specific time, depending on whether the building is important or not. In tall buildings such as the towers of the WTC, I estimate the amount of time during which the insulation should necessarily withstand fire to be more than two hours, this being since such a tall building demands a long time to evacuate.

 

Each of the towers was built in three sections. This prevents (as I said above) the fire from spreading from top to bottom or vice versa.

 

A filled Boeing 767 has, during flight, a mass giving a kinetic energy of approximately 100 metric tons. This is little compared to the mass of each of the towers. That is the reason why the towers did not collapse after they had been hit.

 

September 11, 2001 New York and WTC

 

Ever since I first saw the collapse of the two towers of the WTC, I have thought that there was something incorrect in the way they collapsed.

 

In no way can a fire and an aeroplane hitting the towers as high as the WTC's towers were hit lead to the collapse of the lower structure. The kinetic energy from the hits can not have been the reason for the collapse of the towers. (Reason, see above.)

 

From watching television pictures and film of the collapsing towers, I noticed one of the towers collapsed from above, while the other collapsed from below the fire. Such collapses could be compared to what would happen if the bearing structures were weakened in an explosion. There is no way in which a fire caused by aero fuel could cause such a collapse!!!

 

Aero fuel burns with a temperature of 200 degrees Centigrade. To melt or really weaken steel one needs temperatures above 1000 degrees Centigrade. It is hard to reach such temperatures when the sprinkler system is working.

 

Top Jews were absent from work on September 11.

 

When one, in addition to what I have dilineated for you above, knows that the top Jews and some of their Jewish employees were absent from work on September 11, one must start to think.

 

Someone must have planted explosives in various places on the towers. This is the only way in which the towers could collapse as they did. I think I will leave you here. You are intelligent enough to do the rest of the thinking yourselves.

 

If it was fire which made the floors collapse, the towers' cores would not have collapsed.

 

Stay united and healthy = Heil og sael

 

[Tarun]

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pyari hari <pyari_h@>

Did US attack itself on 9/11?

Dear devotee <sresthadd@aol.com>

Cc: devotee <garytanis@hotmail.com>, devotee <jayram108

Did US attack itself on 9/11?

 

Gary North's REALITY CHECK

 

Number 82 October 12, 2001

 

PERPLEXING PUZZLE OF PUBLISHED PASSENGER LISTS

 

Maybe you like puzzles. I hope so. I don't like them.

I regard them as a challenge, not a game. I avoid them

because, when I cannot find a solution, my mind won't

stop working on them. Then I get very frustrated. So,

I avoid magic shows, crossword puzzles, and similar

brain-twisters.

 

Yet I am also a historian with a Ph.D. Historians are

trained to solve puzzles with insufficient pieces.

Historians never have all of the evidence that they

would like in order to come up with a coherent

explanation of what happened. They always want another

piece in the

puzzle before they go into print. (Of course, once

they go into print, they will tend to reject any newly

discovered piece that messes up their version of the

completed puzzle.) At some point, they are supposed to

come to a conclusion. They are supposed to make a

judgment about what happened.

 

I am presently stuck. So, I am sending out this

report. Maybe there is someone my list who can get me

unstuck.

 

Years ago, I saw a movie, "My Cousin Vinnie." Vinnie

was studying to be a lawyer. He wasn't a good

classroom student, but he had a unique ability. He

could figure out how things fit together. Show him a

magic trick, and he could tell you how the magician

did it. Tell him a story with a missing link, and he

could identify where the

missing link was, and maybe what it was. He could

solve puzzles.

 

I am trying to locate Vinnie.

 

This puzzle is no game. The United States has gone to

war on the basis of one solution to this puzzle. We

have not yet been told what this solution is.

 

The puzzle begins with the crash of four airliners. We

must work our way backward from this.

 

To do this, I decided to begin with official

information that was published 16 days after the

attack. To work my way backwards, I first leaped

forward.

 

ALLEGED HIJACKERS

 

On September 27, the Associated Press released a story

about the hijackers. The version that I read,

published in the ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION,

referred to these men as alleged hijackers. I shall do

the same.

 

I located this article by using www.daypop.com. Daypop

is the most complete archive of recent news stories on

the Web. Daypop allows you to search for stories that

are up to four weeks old.

 

I searched for "passenger list" and "hijackers."

Daypop produced three pages of links -- not that many.

Almost all of these links were to the same AP story,

which was published by numerous on-line news sources.

Here is the version I used.

 

http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/terrorism/nation/0927hijackerlist.html

 

The headline reads: "FBI releases updated list of

alleged hijackers." Above the headline is a link that

says, "Click here to see 19 suspected hijackers." I

clicked it. A large box popped up. It took a while for

the photos to appear. There are 19 photos, along with

names. The names appear to be Middle Eastern -- Arabs.

Most of the men look like Arabs, although a few might

pass as Mexicans. Only one of them looked vaguely like

a European.

 

They are divided into four lists, according to which

flight they are said to have boarded. There were five

men on American Airlines Flight 77, five on AA Flight

11, five on United Airlines Flight 175, and four on UA

Flight 93 -- the flight that crashed in Pennsylvania.

 

Let's return to the AP story itself. We read the following:

 

As Attorney General John Ashcroft launched a "national

neighborhood watch" with the release of the photos,

FBI Director Robert Mueller acknowledged that

questions remained about whether an accompanying list

contained the true names of the 19.

 

"What we are currently doing is determining whether,

when these individuals came to the United States,

these were their real names or

they changed their names for use with false

identification in the United States," Mueller said.

 

The FBI director said there was evidence that one or

more of the hijackers had had contacts with al-Qaida,

the network associated with Osama bin Laden,

exiled Saudi millionaire who is Bush

administration's top suspect in the attacks.

 

This story indicates that, as of September 27, the FBI

was not certain whether these suspects had used their

real names. The remainder of the story listed each of

their names, along with possible aliases. The aliases

all look like Arab names.

 

I have discovered no additional information released

to the general public regarding these suspects.

 

I now backtrack to the morning of September 11. The

issue that I am trying to deal with is airline

security. To draw rational conclusions about how the

alleged hijackers accomplished their acts of

terrorism, we must begin with airline security.

 

The United States has now gone to war because of a

breakdown somewhere in airline security procedures.

Yet nobody in government is blaming the specific

airlines. They are blaming the procedures. This is why

I want you mentally to go through the procedures with

me. I have hit a brick wall. I am asking you to help

me knock it down. I

will show you how I went through the procedures

mentally. See if you can figure out which step I missed.

 

Step One is check-in.

 

STEP ONE: CHECK-IN

 

On September 11, airline check-in counters were the

only places in the United States that required

travellers to present a photo ID in order to travel. A

photo ID meant (and still means) a card issued by some

branch of civil government. Years ago, the United

States government took the first step toward a

national ID card when it mandated the requirement that

all passengers present a photo ID card

before being allowed to get on a commercial airplane.

 

This means that the tightest security that the typical

American ever confronts is airport security. This is

the model for all other security systems governing the

general public.

 

Let's go through the check-in routine together.

Pretend that it's September 11, and you are a check-in

agent at either a United Airlines counter or an

American Airlines counter. It is your job to ask the

standard questions. "Did you pack your own luggage?

Have you had it in your possession at all times?" Then

you ask for a photo ID. The name on the ID must match

the name on the ticket. The photo must match the

person presenting the card.

 

I began with American Airlines, Flight 11. This was

the plane that crashed into the north tower of the

World Trade Center. I began with the list of

passengers. This was not difficult. The passenger

lists for all four planes are posted on CNN's Website.

 

Click on the link. This is a long link for the

formatting of my newsletter. If it is broken on your

screen, you will have to paste it into your Web

browser's address box. This will take two steps.

 

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA11.victims.html

 

The CNN page says that there were 92 people on board.

I suggest that you print out the list. Part of my

exercise was to count the names of the passengers.

Besides, you never know when a Web page will

disappear.

 

Do you have the print-out in front of you? Count the

names. I get 86 names, including the crew. But the CNN

page says 92 people were on board.

 

None of the 86 names is an Arab name. This is very,

very strange. First, how did the CNN list-compiler

know that there were 92 people on board? Five of them

are not listed. Second, how did anyone get on board

who was not on the list of ticketed passengers?

 

Did US attack itself on 9/11? -- Part 3

 

To get onto the flight legally, each passenger had to

have a ticket with his or her name on it. Each

passenger had to present a photo ID to the check-in

agent. The check-in agent was supposed to look at the

picture and the person, and then make a judgment. Was

it the same person? If the mandated procedure was

followed, the check-in agent decided that the ticket's

name, the photo ID's name, the photo, and the

ID-holder's face all matched. If there was any doubt,

the check-in agent was supposed to ask for some other

form of identification. If there was none, the person

was not allowed to board the plane.

 

We are told by the United States government that five

Arabs somehow got through this initial screening

procedure. How did they do this? This is puzzle number

one regarding Flight 11. Puzzle number two has to do

with the incomplete passenger list.

 

Airlines keep a list of passengers on board. This is

for insurance purposes, should there be a crash. It is

also for the purpose of notifying relatives after a

crash. It is also for the purpose of in-cabin

screening. "Has everyone paid who is on the plane?"

And, finally, is there a hijacker on board?

 

On American Airlines Flight 11, there were no Arab

names on the passenger list. So, how does the

government know who the hijackers were?

 

Why does CNN's Web page list 92 dead, when there are

only 86 name listed? Who was the non-Arab?

 

I have seen nothing about government accusations

against American Airlines for substandard check-in

security procedures. In fact, I have seen nothing

about the discrepancy between the published names and

the published numbers regarding how many people were

on board.

 

Let's go to American Airlines Flight 77. This plane

crashed into the Pentagon.

 

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA77.victims.html

 

We are told that 64 people were on board. I count 56,

including 6 crew members. There is no explanation

offered for the absence of 8 names. There is no Arab

name on this list.

 

Something is definitely wrong here.

 

What about United Airlines? Did the company's

employees follow the same check-in procedure?

Presumably, they did. I checked Flight 175, which

crashed into the south tower.

 

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/ua175.victims.html

 

There were 56 people on board, according to CNN's

summation. I printed out the list. I counted the

names. Once again, they don't add up. The summation

says there were 2 pilots, 7 flight attendants, and 56

passengers. I counted the names. The total is 56 --

the number attributed to the passengers. Nine names

are missing. None of the listed names is Arab.

 

This leaves United Flight 93, which crashed in

Pennsylvania. It had 45 people on board, according to

the summation.

 

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/ua93.victims.html

 

Again, there is a discrepancy. Only 33 names appear on

the list. A dozen names are missing. Among the missing

names are the four Arabs who allegedly hijacked the plane.

 

So, the published names in no instance match the total

listed for the number of people on board. CNN really

should offer an explanation for this discrepancy.

 

In no case does an Arab name appear on a list, let

alone one of the alleged hijackers.

 

How did CNN fail to count the names accurately? Did

the airlines not provide the full list of each

flight's names? Perhaps so.

 

Did US attack itself on 9/11? -- Part 4

 

This raises the next question. How did the airlines

know how many people were on each of these flights?

The airlines must have had a list for each flight.

What possible reason could they have had for not

releasing the full lists? Finally, why are there no

Arabs listed on any of these lists, let alone the

specific Arabs identified by

the Attorney General and the head of the FBI in an

Associated Press story?

 

I do not understand how 19 Arabs could have evaded the

check-in procedures. I also do not understand why

every passenger's name is not on the published lists.

 

I have seen no other source of the passenger lists.

(Another search word: "manifests.") It has now been

over a month since the attack. Where is a complete

list? I don't know. Where is a complete list of all

four flights that has the alleged hijackers' names on

it? I don't know.

 

Finally, where is some enterprising reporter who is

trying to get answers? I don't know.

 

What about Step Two?

 

STEP TWO: ON-BOARD SEATING

 

There were multiple terrorists in the cabin of each

plane when the plane left the ground. They did not get

there through the ticket-screening system. Or did

they? If they did, then how?

 

I assume here -- again, maybe I am wrong -- that they

got there through another entrance. Maybe they were

part of the food service team.

 

These were all cross-country flights. The planes were

loaded with lots of fuel, which is why they were

selected: flying bombs. On cross-country flights,

passengers still are given meals, not just pretzels

and soft drinks. The number of meals is supposed to

match the number of people on board, or at least come

close.

 

Flight attendants have a list of passengers and their

assigned seats. This is to enable them to identify

passengers who have requested special meals, such as

kosher meals. It is also to enable them to identify

people who have not bought a ticket. Flight attendants

are supposed to know who has been assigned to which

seat.

 

It is September 11. Here is the situation: there are

an extra five men on three flights, and four extra men

on Flight 93.

 

You have already seen the photos of these men. If I

had been a flight attendant, and I saw five extra men

who looked like they did -- young, Arabic, and without

tickets -- I would have asked them to explain why they

were on board. I would not have assumed that they

belonged there.

 

Are we to assume that on four separate flights, none

of the flight attendants noticed that something was

wrong? Are we to believe that they failed to notice

that five or four extra passengers were on board who

were not on the passenger list? Furthermore, these men

looked as though they were of one ethnic group. They

all had Arabic

accents, I presume.

 

Why did the flight attendants ignore all this? There

is no indication from the government that these men

took over all four planes while the planes were still

on the ground. Even if they had, the pilots would not

have taken off if there were hijackers on board. They

would have waited to hear the demands, and the demand

to "take off now" would have been refused by at least

one flight crew --

and I believe all four.

 

We need a theory of the co-ordinated hijacking that

rests on a plausible cause-and-effect sequence that

does not assume the complete failure of both the

check-in procedures and the on-board seating

procedures on four separate flights on two separate

airlines. If the

explanation does rely on a theory of check-in

procedural breakdown, where is the evidence?

 

I have heard no such theory from the government. I

have heard no such theory from the news media. In

fact, I have heard neither the government nor the

mainstream media even mention these perplexing

problems. Perhaps you have. If so, I would like to see

the Web link or a reference to the newspaper or other

source where these matters have been discussed.

 

Did US attack itself on 9/11? -- Part 5

 

I don't mean this or that discussion forum devoted to

conspiracy theories. I mean the mainstream press. It

is very peculiar that the mainstream media and the

government have not offered a detailed theory of how

the hijackers evaded both the check-in procedures and

the pre-takeoff seating procedures.

 

Perhaps some airline industry publication has dealt

with this. If so, I would like to see the document.

 

I would also like to see passenger lists that include

every passenger's name. I want to see 19 Arab names on

these complete lists.

 

If these updated lists are ever released, I want to

see that they match the original lists that were not

released immediately. I want to know that any new

names have not been added retroactively. I want

evidence -- from travel agencies' records and credit

card records -- that everyone on each plane's updated

passenger list actually

bought a ticket.

 

Is this to much to ask? So far, apparently it is.

 

CONSPIRACY THEORIES

 

Conspiracy theories are a dime a dozen. Well, not all

of them. We have gone to war based on one of them. But

I don't see how anyone can make an accurate judgment

about who was behind the attacks until he has a

plausible explanation of how the hijackers got onto

the planes and were not removed.

 

I am not interested in any theory about who did it

until I have a plausible explanation for how he did

it.

 

The key to discovering who planned this attack is

inescapably tied to the procedures used by his agents

to do it.

 

I don't see how they did it, yet I know that three

planes crashed into highly visible targets. A fourth

plane had veered off course, and it seems plausible

that it was part of a co-ordinated attack. This has

yet to be proven, but it seems plausible.

 

We keep hearing about plastic knives and box cutters.

But we hear nothing about how these 19 men took

plastic knives and box cutters onto four planes, and

no one noticed that anything was amiss until the planes were in the air.

 

So, you tell me. How did 19 Arabs get onto these

planes and then remain inconspicuous until the planes were aloft?

 

CONCLUSION

 

I have no conclusion. I told you this at the

beginning. I am stuck.

 

I am looking for Vinnie. Maybe you're Vinnie. After

you have drawn your own conclusion, and it seems

reasonable, let me know.

 

But before you do, please run your theory by someone

whose judgment you trust. See if that person thinks

your theory is plausible. See if he or she can pick

holes in it. Don't make me your first guinea pig. I

want to be at least second. Third would be even

better.

 

Did US attack itself on 9/11? -- Part 6

 

We need to get the division of intellectual labor

working here. As the Bible says, "Two are better than

one; because they have a good reward for their labour.

For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but

woe to him that is alone when he falleth; for he hath

not another to help him up" (Ecclesiastes 4:9-10).

 

If you have no logical explanation, join the club.

Maybe you know a potential Vinnie. Use your FORWARD

button to send him or her a copy of this report. Ask

for feedback.

 

Notice to all would-be Vinnies: with each forwarding,

e-mail software adds either a carrot -- this is a

carrot: > -- or a vertical line. This pushes the text

to the right. If you have received this after several

forwardings, the text may be difficult to read. You

can get a fresh copy by sending an e-mail to

puzzle@kbot.com, or click this link and then click

SEND:

maiPuzzle@kbot.com

 

Somewhere out there is a person who can solve this

puzzle. There has to be a solution. I just don't know

what it is.

 

In future issues of this newsletter, I will report on

any conclusions that look plausible to me.

 

If you're not yet a r, and you want to read

what some of these conclusions are, you can

for free. Send an e-mail to this address:

unstuck@kbot.com, or and then click

the SEND button:

unstuck@kbot.com

You will receive a welcome letter from me within a few

seconds. It will explain what my newsletter is all about.

-----------------------

P.S. Send your proposed solution to solution@kbot.com

You will receive a short autoresponder-generated

letter telling you that I have received it. This way,

you will know that your solution got through to me.

 

[This message has been edited by Tarun (edited 02-06-2002).]

[Tarun]

So, after 4 full months, we still have no certainty who was ultimately behind 9/11 attack.

We know Venice, Florida was where these pioots were trained.

We know Florida's Governor Bushel personally went to Venice just before 9/11 to totally remove all police records of these so-called hijackers.

We know our beloved FBI totally neglected all fly school instructors' warnings.

We know certain Republicans heavily invested in American & United Airlines, driving their values up.

But then they sold their stock on Sept 4, 6 & 7, amazingly just before 9/11.

Hmm. Just coincidence?

Now if we could only connect the overtly obvious dots... .

"Connecting Dots" was something we learned in Kindergarten.

You too? Was it so difficult?

Is there not one judge within all our 50 states who at least graduated from Kindergarten?

Hmm. Guess not. Our sorry state of Kaliyuga affairs.

So much for modern education. So much for Amerikan law schools.

 

[gHari]

Originally posted by Tarun:

... We know Florida's Governor Bushel personally went to Venice just before 9/11 to totally remove all police records of these so-called hijackers.

... We know certain Republicans heavily invested in American & United Airlines, driving their values up.

 

 

Tarun,

 

Can these 'facts' be proven? The first is very serious and I would guess a crime.

 

I don't see why blowing up some planes would affect the stock investment since the buying and selling both occured prior to the terror. Finding this in the paper you read should have raised the BS WARNING flag. Unless of course, there is some strategy that eludes me here.

 

gHari

[Tarun]

gHariji: Those Venice, FL Cops would have to testify.

It would put Gov Bushel et al in jail for a minimum 4,000 yrs each.

They'd be risking their jobs & lives.

 

World Trade Center p2

New Stürmer Volume 3

Visit my web-side at: (listed above previously)

 

Dear kindred and fellow Aryans

 

Today I am sending you some thoughts I got as I first heard about the tragedy of September 11. I sat at a small cafe with some friends as a waiter brought us the news.

 

To pull off a plan as the one which happened in USA on that date, one needs a large organisation, a very good logistic and foremost alot of planning and training. An organisation operating out of Afghanistan with no cellar phones or any other modern communication could not have done that. We all know from what the media told in the beginning that Osama bin Laden did not have such communication neither does the Taliban. They cannot transmit their own television newscast from Afghanistan, their Embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan is their mouth to world.

 

I ask you: Could such an organisation pull off anything as big?

 

My first reaction after I heard of the tragedy was:

Zionists must be behind it, they and the Jews of Israel.

 

As time went on and I thought more about it I even thought the Zionists had help from their Freemasons friends. There was only one thing which puzzled me, and that was where did they try out their devious plan?

 

Some days ago a mail landed in my mailbox. I give it to you:

 

quote

 

WHAT TOOK OUT EGYPT AIR FLIGHT 990? Donn de Grand Pré

Was there an earlier "dry run" for the crash of four commercial airliners on 9-11; one that involved a Middle East (say Arab) pilot committing suicide? Was he just another fanatic Muslim on a holy mission, or could it too have been caused by "an outside force"? Consider the following excerpt from the new book Barbarians Inside the Gates: "EgyptAir (flight 990) was taken out by an electromagnetic pulse weapon (EMP)", declared a high-ranking Pentagon officer speaking anonymously two days after the fatal plunge of the commercial airliner. The Boeing 767 went into the Atlantic ocean off the coast of Massachusetts in the early morning hours of 31 Oct 1999 shortly after take-off from Kennedy International Airport, New York. The aircraft, with 217 people aboard, had just reached cruising altitude of 33,000 feet and was situated about 60 miles south of Martha's Vineyard on the first leg of its 11 -hour flight from New York to Cairo. The massive and well-orchestrated cover-up of this takeout of a commercial aircraft began in earnest after recovery of the cockpit voice recorder and the flight recorder some two weeks after the crash. Following are pertinent extracts from leading U.S. newspapers during the period 18-21 Nov 1999. The Washington Times bannered (18 Nov 99) "EgyptAir co-pilot suspected" in an AP wire story that stated in part:

 

A relief co-pilot alone in the EgyptAir cockpit said 'I made my decision now. I put my faith in God's hands' just before the jetliner began its fatal plunge, officials close to the investigation said Wednesday. Moments after the plane began to dive, the pilot returned to struggle -- futilely --to pull out ... The current theory ... is both tentative and incomplete, the law enforcement official stressed ... commenting on condition of anonymity, and other sources close to the case gave this account what those recorders show: Relief co-pilot Capt Gameel el-Batouty, scheduled to take over much later in the 11hour New York-to-Cairo flight, enters the cockpit and asks to fly. His request is accepted. The cockpit door is opened later, after which there is no conversation, leading investigators to conclue el-Batouty is alone. He says in Arabic: 'I made my decision now. I put my faith in God's hands.' Shortly thereafter, the autopilot is turned off and the jet begins to descend steeply from 33,000 feet. The cockpit door opens again. Investigators believe the pilot, Capt Ahmed Mahmoud el-Habashy, has returned because he is heard to ask what's going on. They believe he tries to regain control because he is heard to say, 'pull with me, Help me. Pull with me.' There is no sound of struggle, but some investigators believe that phrase is said in an argumentative tone. At about this time, there is an unusual split in the plane's elevators: one moves up and the other down. These flaps on either side of the tail usually move up or down in unison to lower or raise the plane's nose. Boeing has told the investigators crew members must apply 50 pounds of pressure in opposite directions on the pilot's and co-pilot's control yokes to achieve this split outcome. Investigators surmise this may be evidence of a struggle between two crew members over how to respond to the steep dive. Shortly thereafter, the jet's two engines are shut off. The plane regains some altitude, stalls and drops into the sea.

 

Two days later, Washington Times, under a banner, "EgyptAir plunge might have been deliberate", carries a continuation of the AP yarn, this time by Anne Gearan:

 

The government's chief aircraft investigator said Friday that officials believe the crash of EgyptAir Flight 990 may have been deliberate, though another official said the suspicious words 'I made my decision now' are not on cockpit tape after all. As they looked at wreckage and other evidence from the 31 Oct crash, 'our investigators began to feel that the crash might -- and I emphasize might -- be the result of a deliberate act,' chairman James Hall of the National Transportation Safety Board said at a news conference... Hall said speculation about words captured on the cockpit voice recorder had cause unnecessary pain and 'done a disservice to the long-standing friendship between the people of the United States of America and Egypt'... Hall brushed aside questions about the specific words on the cockpit recording... But on Friday, a government official said the first of those two sentences (I made my decision now) is not heard on the tape after all... Hall and other government officials have warned all week of varying interpretations of what is heard on the tape. On Friday, he decried 'second -third -and fourth-hand' speculation that in some instance has produced 'headlines with information that is just flat wrong.'

 

Another high-level Pentagon officer, also speaking anonymously, stated on 23 Nov 1999 that he and his colleagues are convinced that the information provided the media by the National Transportation Safety Board is disinformation based on lies and damned lies and that the entire story about a third pilot "committing suicide" was pure hogwash, and a gross and amateur cover-up of a major crime. He stressed that a pilot and co-pilot struggling against each other for control of the aircraft, one straining to pull the plane out mechanically by pulling back on his control yoke, and the other pushing forward to crash the plane, thus causing the elevators to split, is a physical impossibility, as the twin control columns are linked electronically and hydrolically to the same cables running back to the tail assembly. The left and right elevators are also linked to function in unison, whether by electronic control or hydrolic. Yet, in another AP story in USA Today (18 Nov 1999) by Kevin Johnson and Alan Levin. "{T } he elevator on the captan's side was attempting to pull the nose up and the co-pilot's elevator was moved to push the nose down, the NTSB reported." As for the great to-do made over one of the pilots uttering a prayer to Allah, the Pentagon officer asked "how many of our fighter pilots and soldiers have sought divine intervention in a tight combat situation?" The mainline media continued to play up the possible mental instability of the third pilot, such as USA Today blaring (18 Nov 1999) "Rules can lead pilots to hide distress"; The Richmond Times-Dispatch (21 Nov 1999) also harped on "Mental fitness for pilots" Blake Morrison put it in proper perspective stating that the rules are clear. "Commercial airline pilots around the world can't fly unless deemed psychologically sound by a doctor. "Egypt seeks 'truth' in crash", USA Today trumpeted. Its cover story centered on Gameel el-Batouty, a "Man of faith and mystery", stating that the alleged third pilot, "alone in the cockpit", had decided to commit suicide. "His family knew him as 'a happy man who loved life.' But investigators say Gameel el-Batouty could have played a dark role in deaths of 217 people." In a meeting with FBI Director Louis Freeh on 16 Nov 99. Attorney general Janet Reno "made it clear that she favored proceeding with a criminal inquiry", USA Today reporter Kevin Johnson wrote. "Nobody is rushing into this one," a government official said. Many Egyptians are grumbling about a perceived conspiracy to blame the accident on Egypt. Washington Times reported (19 Nov 99) that in the weeks since the crash, the Egyptian press has been full of conspiracy theories, including alleged plots by Israel's secret service or other foreign agents. Over the two weeks elapsing between the actual crash and recovery of the black boxes "somebody within the National Transportation Safety Board concocted the wildly contradictory tale of the 3rd pilot taking over and deliberately crashing the plane," the Pentagon officer stated. "We (meaning JCS) obtained a copy of the cockpit recording as translated by an Arabic expert. What this so-called 3rd pilot was supposed to have said is not on the tape at all, and there is no indication whatsoever that the captain or his co-pilot ever left their seats, despite the sound of a door opening and closing We believe we know who the individual was that made up the story about the 'suicide'; he has been caught fudging on previous crashes, once the black boxes were in his hands." As to the "why" of it; i.e., why was that particular flight "taken out" by a probable EMP weapon, the military officer stated that among passengers on board EgyptAir Flight 990 were 33 Egyptian air force officers, all of whom had just completed an intensified flight training course at a US-military installation here in the United States. "It would appear that the chief beneficiaries of the 990 takeout were Israelis," he stated. "Certain individuals could now claim credit for 33 kills of Egyptian combat aircraft ... planes that conceivably could be used against Israel's air force in a future Mideast war. You know, Egyptians, as well as the rest of the Muslim world, are still sworn enemies of Zionists, whom they accuse of stealing not only Palestinian lands, but desiring to expand their borders into Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Egypt. "Whoever was responsible for the EgyptAir takeout will be looked upon by Zionists here in the US, as well as in Israel, as true heroes," the Pentagon officer stated.

 

End of quote

 

Chew on this for some time. The cover up after Egyptian Air 990 was big, only a group having control of both FBI and CIA could pull off a cover up as big as the one concerning Egypt Air 990.

 

Was Egypt Air 990 the test flight to prove it could be done?

 

Was Egypt Air 990 a test to show it was possible to take over an airplane without being onboard?

 

I don’t think a terrorist organisation based in Arab World could have pulled off anything as big as September 11. Proof: Look at what kind of terror they show in Israel. They might be capable of driving a car into a trading centre or carry a bomb into a group of Jews, but not hijack four aeroplanes within hours and crash three of them into vital US buildings.

 

So where do these passports and suspected Arabs come from?

 

No problems as long as Jews are in control of both CIA and FBI. Suspected Arabs could have been some innocent Arabs which were kidnapped by Jews to act as scapegoats.

 

I am concluding my later with two question to you:

 

Was October 31, 1999 the pirum feast of that year?

 

Was September 11, 2001 the start of a long Purim Feast for Zionists - a Purim Feast which will end with Zionists taking over all power in the world after they have killed off a tens of thousands of Arabs. They killed millions of Aryans during their last Purim Feast, WW2, a feast that ended in a show trail in Nuremberg. Ever since Nuremberg, Jews have kept on killing Aryans - those they can not kill they incarcerate and mistreat.

Heil og sael

--

[samarpan]

nice article tarun,talk to you soon ill just now but can read on and off.radhe radhe

[Tarun]

Why is Mayor Bloomberg refusing to release transcripts of emergency radio transmissions from the destruction of the World Trade Center?

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2002/07/23/mayor_records/index.html

Mayor's Office says it plans to keep secret hundreds of written and audio records related to Fire Dept's response to Sept.11 attack on World Trade Center.

Our treasonous Mayor says it's to guarantee a fair trial to the terrorist who is going on trial.

(Meanwhile they keep American citizens imprisoned in FEMA camps with no habeas corpus, no charges and no right to an attorney.)

A turny for the worse. Camouflage.

The real reason records are being kept secret is because they would reveal numerous reports of multiple bombs going off in the World Trade Center. NUMEROUS!

There is no way those buildings could have collapsed from burning jet fuel as is the bogus cover story being presented 10 months now.

Don't believe it? Do you think jet fuel also caused building number seven, a 47 story building to collapse in a symmetrical fashion?

No aircraft hit number seven. No friends, those buildings were destroyed and the people were murdered by our own government. Firefighters and emergency workers inside the buildings reported multiple bombs going off around them.

That is what the government is concealing by refusing to release those tapes.

Those building were destroyed to justify rapidly developing implementation of martial law now taking place in this country.

They were also destroyed to give Carte Blanche to imperial warmongering of the United Nations in Asia and elsewhere.

Once again please go to www.infowars.com and order Alex Jones' video:

911 The Road To Tyranny.

George Bush is a traitor and is guilty of conspiracy to commit mass murder!

Wake up friends! George Bush, John Ashcroft, and Gauleiter Tom Ridge are actively creating a fascist dictatorship here in America. Yours truly, Ed Safra

[Tarun]

gHariji: we have all the evidence in tripicate ad infinitum.

We'd be killed on the way up the courthouse steps, if not before.

This is a job for DurvAsA Muni or better.

No ordinary jIva can take on so many RAxasas + their armed ziSyas all at once.

Nitai/Nimai's plan is best, cleanest cut: SankIrtan Flood - dvare dvare giya

Adhama patita jiver dvare dvare giya; HarinAma mahA-mantra dena bilaiya

Otherwise they all become toilet microbes in their very next life. No delay.

[Streetstraw]

Firefighters Vote to Boycott Bush Sept. 11 Tribute

By Steve Friess Reuters

August 14, 2002

The International Association of Fire Fighters voted unanimously on Wednesday to boycott a national tribute to firefighters who died on Sept. 11, in an angry response to U.S. President George Bush's rejection of a bill that included $340 million to fund fire departments.

 

Bush is expected to speak at the Oct. 6 ceremony in Washington D.C., where the National Fallen Fire Fighters Foundation is hosting its annual tribute to those who died in the line of duty during the prior year.

The ceremony will honor 343 firefighters who died responding to the Sept. 11 attacks on New York and Washington, as well as about 100 others who also died in the year.

 

The IAFF, the umbrella organization for the nation's professional firefighter unions, is enraged by the president's rejection of a $5.1 billion appropriations bill that included $150 million for equipment and training grants requested by some of the nation's 18,000 fire departments.

 

It also include $100 million to improve the communications systems for firefighters, police officers and other emergency personnel as well as $90 million for long-term health monitoring of emergency workers at the Ground Zero site where New York's World Trade Center towers once stood.

 

Firefighters and survivors will be urged to skip the Oct. 6 event in protest, said R. Michael Mohler of the Virginia Professional Fire Fighters Local 774.

 

Mohler made the boycott motion before about 2,000 union leaders convening in Las Vegas for the IAFF's first national conference since Sept. 11.

"The president has merely been using firefighters and their families for one big photo opportunity," Mohler said. "We will work actively to not grant him another photo op with us."

 

**BUSH ACCUSED OF "NEGLECTING HEROES"

Bush said Tuesday the bill was bloated by less important projects and a White House spokeswoman said Bush remained committed to firefighters and other emergency groups.

 

"The president is committed to our nation's first responders," White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan, traveling with Bush in Des Moines, Iowa, said.

 

The firefighters' boycott vote followed anti-Bush speeches by Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, and IAFF general president Harold Schaitberger in which accused the president of neglecting the heroes of Sept. 11.

 

Schaitberger ridiculed as insincere Bush's videotaped remarks shown Monday at the conference, in which Bush expressed sympathy and admiration for the firefighters who responded to the Sept. 11 attacks.

 

"Don't lionize our fallen brothers in one breath, and then stab us in the back by eliminating funding for our members to fight terrorism and stay safe," Schaitberger said. "President Bush, you are either with us or against us. You can't have it both ways."

 

Daschle, a South Dakota Democrat, told the firefighters: "I strongly urge the President to reconsider. If he refuses to do so, however, I am prepared to do everything I can as majority leader to see that you get the resources you need to do your jobs safely and effectively."

(In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed sans profit to those who have expressed prior interest in receiving included information for research and educational purposes.)

 

[Streetstraw]

Our average US Citizen remains clueless. We r told to blame those people over there. We allow ourselves to be programmed to the hilt by dispicable characters so ever finely dressed. We prefer bewilderment 24/7. We call ourselves advanced.

[Streetstraw]

Shakers & Movers shook down those Twin Towers, then moved all that scrap metal to India.

Quite a move. Quite a shake. Have u tasted?

[Tarun]

dharmArtha kAma-moksAdi... just another set-up

Some go to mass just to focus on how to massly distract.

=====================

9/11 Suspect Found Guilty by David Rising - AP

HAMBURG, Germany (Feb. 19) -- A Moroccan student was convicted Wednesday of more than 3,000 counts of accessory to murder in the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States, ending the first trial of anyone connected with the suicide hijackings.

 

Mounir el Motassadeq, 28, was sentenced to the maximum 15 years in prison for helping the Hamburg-based al-Qaida terror cell that included lead hijacker Mohamed Atta and two other suicide pilots.

 

In addition to 3,045 counts of accessory to murder, he was convicted of five counts of attempted murder and bodily injury.

 

El Motassadeq denied the charges during his 3 1/2-month trial, and his lawyers had demanded acquittal.

 

El Motassadeq has acknowledged knowing six other alleged members of the Hamburg cell - Atta and two other suicide pilots, Ziad Jarrah and Marwan al-Shehhi; and organizers Ramzi Binalshibh, Said Bahaji and Zakariya Essabar. But he says he knew nothing of their plans.

 

``I couldn't believe that people I knew could do something like that,'' el Motassadeq said in his closing statement last week. ``I watched it on television and I was shocked ... I can only hope that something like Sept. 11 never happens again.''

 

But witnesses testified that el Motassadeq, a slight, bearded man, was as radical as the rest of the group, talking of jihad - holy war - and his hatred of Israel and the United States.

 

The defendant himself admitted he trained in one of Osama bin Laden's camps in Afghanistan in 2000.

 

Prosecutors allege el Motassadeq used his power of attorney over al-Shehhi's bank account to pay rent, tuition and utility bills, allowing the plotters to keep up the appearance of being normal students in Germany.

 

El Motassadeq argued he was simply providing an innocent service to friends and that he took weapons training in Afghanistan because he believed all Muslims should learn to shoot.

 

The prospect of el Motassadeq's imprisonment in Germany raised security fears even before the verdict. Terrorists might attempt hijackings or kidnappings to free him, said Bavaria's top security official, Interior Minister Guenter Beckstein.

 

The Hamburg case, coupled with a possible Iraq war, has led some German authorities to step up surveillance of likely suspects who might be planning attacks, though there is no evidence of any specific threats for now, Beckstein told ZDF television.

 

Germany's federal anti-crime agency said no nationwide measures were being taken, but the states were free to increase security.

 

``We gather information regarding the level of danger from national and international sources and pass on anything that is relevant to the state police,'' said Dirk Buechner, spokesman for the Federal Criminal Office.

 

El Motassadeq's lawyers tried several times unsuccessfully to obtain testimony by two of his friends, Ramzi Binalshibh and Mohammed Haydar Zammar - a lack of evidence that the lawyers say could be grounds for an appeal in case of a guilty verdict.

 

Binalshibh, a Yemeni suspect in U.S. custody, is believed to have been Hamburg cell's key contact with al-Qaida. Zammar, alleged al-Qaida recruiter in Hamburg, is in prison in Syria.

 

The court could not get the men released to testify and German authorities refused to turn over their files on the two, saying transcripts of their interrogations were provided to them on condition they only be used for intelligence purposes.

 

Attorneys representing Americans who lost family members on Sept. 11 said they would appeal if el Motassadeq does not receive close to the maximum sentence. Family members are allowed to be co-plaintiffs under German law.

 

El Motassadeq, son of a middle-class family, came to Germany in 1993 to study. By 1995, he was studying electrical engineering in Hamburg, where he is believed to have first met Atta no later than the following year.

02/19/03 08:20 EST

[Guest guest]

This reply is for the post made by Tarun about how there are some discrepancies in the passenger list provided by CNN. It is very clearly said at the link that it is a 'victims list' so how can anyone with half a brain expect the list to carry the names of the alleged hijackers.

 

No Vinnie is needed to solve this simple matter. It is very clear that although there were 92 passengers, 86 were innocent victims.

 

[Kulapavana]

There are many groups of people (both secret and open) seeking to control this world, often using very devious methods. Most of those who truly control such groups are in fact demonic in nature. While devotees should not be overly concerned about influence of such people (since Lord Krishna is the real controller) we should also not be a blind tool in their hands...

 

...we should preach the glories of the Holy Name and the benefits of a true Aryan society... the only way to really make a difference in the world

[Guest guest]

and what are u suggesting? Are u nazis, blaming the judah for what went wrong?

[sinimat]

I believe Aryan refers to an ancient civilization that followed the instructions of the Vedas as to how to live life properly. They were very advanced. The nazis stole the name Aryan, like they stole the swastika, which is an ancient sacred symbol.

Haribol!

[Kulapavana]

You are obviously confused. Please google up some information on Aryan civilization, it will do you much good. Such knee-jerk reactions from people like yourself are the results of almost a century of brainwashing efforts by the people who see Aryan culture as the threat to their malevolent rule.

[Guest guest]

The word "aryan" comes from the Sanskrit word "Arya", meaning noble. People in ancient India called themselves "noble" because they had a noble culture. But like all societies, they also degenrated, so I don't see how aryan is relevant in this time and age. It is outdated, isn't it? ANd yes, I also know all about Swastika, in sanskrit, it is 'good furtune'.

[Kulapavana]

The idea about noble (Aryan) culture is not at all outdated. Many people in this world feel that current materialistic, consumption oriented culture of pretty much the entire world is very detrimental. Aryan society was set up in a very scientific and nonsectarian way to promote spiritual development and material well being for all it's members. Nothing outdated about that... :-)

 

Btw: I started a thread on Spiritual Discussion forum about the Aryan Revival Movement