photographic evidence of vedic influence

[Guest guest]

 

this is a good site with a lot of great stuff

 

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/photographic_evidence_of_vedic_influence.htm

[Gauracandra]

Wow this was very interesting. Of particular interest to me is this link:

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/art_photo_six.htm

 

Assuming this is an ancient Greek picture, the conclusions drawn I think are entirely justified. We see a silhouette of a young man, surrounded by cows, holding a flute, and with legs crossed. The other pictures such as Egyptians wearing tilak were also interesting.

[Guest guest]

I think that is Pan,

in Greek mythology he is similar to Gopal Krishna.

Probably Pan was derived from Krishna stories.

[Gauracandra]

I don't think that picture is of Pan. As I recall Pan is a herder of cows (or maybe goats). However, he has goat legs, not human. And he does not play a stick flute, but rather a reed flute. That is a bunch of reeds, each a different size, bound together. This picture looks like Krsna to me, not Pan. Though I have heard some consider Pan and Krsna to have some relationship. I believe Pan plays his reed flute out of loneliness for a woman he loved. Something like that. Any details on the origins of Pan?

[gHari]

I didn't get the impression that "Oh here is Krsna". I think we be leaping pretty far to see an ugly naked dude with a flute and some cows as the Supreme Lord. I intend not to offend either Stephen Knapp or the artist, but really I just don't see it.

 

For me, a whole bunch of maybe's isn't proof of anything. It's just speculation, and tends to undermine one's position since then integrity and motive become suspect.

 

Any gurukuli four year old can do better that.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

The picture, in case anyone didnt go to the link:

 

[atma]

The Greeks worshipped him as the Great All. In Myth, Hermes fathered Pan on the nymph Dryope. The child was so ugly at birth with horns, beard, tail and goat legs that his mother ran away from him in fright, and Hermes carried him to Olympus for the gods amusement. Pan haunted the woods and pastures of Arcadia and personified the fertile, phallic spirit of wild, untamed nature. But he could also ocassionally be friendly to men, guarding flocks, herds, and beehives. He took part in the revels of the mountain-nymphs and helped hunters to find their quarry. On one ocassion he pursued the chaste nymph Syrinx to the River Ladon, where she transformed herself into a water-reed to escape his unwelcome hairy embraces. There, since he could not distinguish her from the rest, he cut several reeds at random, and made them into a syrinx or Pan-pipe.

From Pan's name we derive the word 'panic', because he amused himself by giving the lonely travelles sudden frights. He was despised by the other gods, but they exploited his powers.

 

On an inner level, Pan, the Devil, is an image of bondage to the crudest, most instinctual aspect of human nature. Because the god was worshipped in caves and grottoes, attended by fear, his image suggest something that we both fear and are fascinated by - the raw, goatish, uncivilized sexual impulses which we experience as evil because of their compulsive nature. Since the dawn of the Christian era, the god Pan has been appropiated into the figure of the Devil, complete with goat horns and leering grin.

In myth he was no evil, merely untamed, amoral and natural.

 

From the Mythic Tarot by Juliet Sharman and Liz Greene.

[Gauracandra]

Thanks for that Pan info Atma. Very interesting. This kind of reminds me a bit of the discussion we had in the past about the stories of Achilles and Krsna and Duryodhana and the similarities.

 

I think the three points of comparison in the picture (Cows, stick flute, and stance) do suggest it is Krsna. The drawing I think is actually fairly sophisticated. I think its look is due to it being (my guess) a charcoal rubbing of a relief. As such it appears a bit like a negative.

 

But we have one sure fire way to resolve this question. We live in the age of the poll, so lets try out a poll (actually I’m just doing this because I want an excuse to try out this new feature /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif )

 

<FORM METHOD=POST ACTION="http://www.indiadivine.com/ubbthreads/dopoll.php"><INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="pollname" VALUE="1028421619Gauracandra">

 

 

Is this Greek picture of Krsna?

<input type="radio" name="option" value="1" />Yes

<input type="radio" name="option" value="2" />No

<INPUT TYPE=Submit NAME=Submit VALUE="Submit vote" class="buttons"></form>

[JRdd]

I guess it is kind of neat getting to make up subject headings for our posts....That poll thing is neat too....

 

The picture of Pan bears an amazing resemblance to a beautiful white sculpture or deity of Lord Krsna in the deYoung Museum in Los Angeles (if that's the one by the La Brea Tar Pits). Have a look.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

So far everyone who has voted says its Krishna.

[Krsnadas]

That guys definately an imposter A 3 dollar bill Anyone with a few modelling classes can strike a threefold bending form and hold a stick to his lips. But check His hair looks more like Nero than our beautiful all- attractive Lord. And have a go at his neck, he looks like he eats bulls rather than herding them, plus he looks a little rough around the edges, unshaven, heavy night on the vino, Krsna doesn't go for that he doesn't like beards, Does he? No wonder there's an aspect of devotional life that isn't keen on images of the Lord being thrown around!

And when do you think Krsna would pose naked for a painting if thats what it is. No way this dude is the real McKrsna He can't chastise the Gopies then go the full monty for all those voyeurs on the internet. Plus the bulls have the wrong horns, even imitation Brahmins. They're not even charmed by his fluteplaying, this artist wasn't painting Govinda.

But then I was impressed with that photo of the Australian Bushman with Vaisnava Tilak He looks like he could be one of Lord Nityanandas avaduta friends. Of course they could have doctored the photograph as I've seen with many indian photos they change or add tilak.

How he got to Australia is the question? I have spoken to aboriginal elders who believe they came from India originally and if you see the native fishermen of Orissa they would definately pass for Aboriginal Australians. If ever they want to immigrate illegally in their leaky boats they'll blend in nicely with the Ozzy landscape.

[Gauracandra]

I like this polling feature. Just for clarification on my thinking about the picture, I'm not saying that it IS a picture of Krsna, but more that the elements are derived from Krsna. We've discussed in the past a number of instances where Greek "mythology" matches in some very specific ways with Vedic stories. The commonalities are just too striking. And so this picture I think has incorporated very specific characteristics of Krsna. True this picture is of a naked person. But the three elements given are classic elements of Krsna, and I just find it too coincidental that such specific elements (cows, stick flute, and stance) are all together in the same picture. I think it must be derived from Krsna, even if it may not specifically be Krsna.

[Avinash]

Because of my extremely bad mentality, I wanted to vote twice. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif But I got a message

 

We already have a vote for this poll from this IP address.

 

So, I could vote only once. /ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif

 

[theist]

Nice try you rascal. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

 

I'll never do that(now that I know it wouldn't work) /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[Gauracandra]

Some of the tilak paintings are interesting, but not fully convincing given that very little detail is given as to their origins. Its a minor point considering we either accept what is presented to us or reject it. Assuming these pictures are genuine, it would be interesting to have details like what time frame they are dated to, where were they found, the context, etc.... With the "Krsna" picture atleast an approximate date was given.

[Krsnadas]

Sorry for delayed response my computer had it's umpteenth nervous breakdown. Got me wonderin' if it really is Him and I committed another major one..

I was thinking of that meeting He had with His girlfriend dressed as Abhimanu, had her fooled till He revealed His blue leg under the table, then when He saw Abhimanu coming He accused him of being Krsna dressed up as Abhimanu and had him thrown out, while Srimate Radhika tried containing her rapturous laughter. Sure beats worshipping some unknown spirit or some guy with a long white beard? Then He has been known to take on a few disguises.

I do think the Aboriginal photo looks authentic, but what would I know in this age of special effects.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

A picture of Vishnu tilak on an egyptian.

[Guest guest]

Could Pan, Krishna, and Kokopelli all be the same individual? Could it be that the mystics of different cultures perceived the Supreme Lord, but described Him in different ways? Over time many key elements remained the same while other side details changed? Is this what Carl Jung meant by archetype, with each culture connecting to these universal stories, even if each was a bit different from the next? If you were a Native American shaman who went into a mystic trance, and you saw Govinda the Primeval Lord playing on His flute, you may describe it in one way to your small tribe. The stories may be told generation after generation, and perhaps change over time. But is the essence the same? Pan, Krsna, Kokopelli – flute playing, dancing pranksters who bring joy to the world and to the native girls.