Question for All

[Prabhupadanuga]

I am curious (please lets not allow this to degenerate into a flame war), how many of the devotees here are sympathetic to, or in agreement completely with the ritvik position? I thank you all for your kindness and willingness to answer this.

 

Hare Krsna!

[gHari]

Not.

 

But then I don't buy the poison stuff, the anti-BVNM stuff, the anti-Sridhara stuff, the omniscience stuff, the no-fall stuff or the 'uninitiates are scum' stuff either; and I liked Xena. So what do I know?

[stonehearted]

I've read all their stuff. I've talked to dozens of them. Many of my oldest, dearest friends to the ritvik and/or poison ideas. I'm sympathetic to the concerns that spawned these schools; however, their arguments, clever as some of them appear to be, don't convince me. Back in 1970, I heard from sources I considered impeccable, that Srila Prabhupada was told, while walking in the LA SRF gardens, that the then-leaders of SRF were initiating new members as disciples of Yogananda. Srila Prabhupada snorted in disgust, according to this account, and remarked that we require to be initiated by a living guru. If you actually want to follow Srila Prabhupada, read his books carefully. Listen to his lectures carefully. What you'll find is that he presented the Krishna conscious movement withour concocted deviations. If he intended that we initiate new members as his disciples until whenever, he would have clearly communicated this.

 

It's fair, however, to note that I also don't buy ISKCON's system of (not) appointing gurus, or whatever it is. They have some strange bureucratic system for not disapproving gurus (or whatever the heck it is), but they accept no responsibility for those who turn out to not meet the standard. No wonder folks have found other association, or have come up with the ritvik and the poison theories.

[Prabhupadanuga]

PAMHO. AGTSP. Thank you both for your reply.Have you read "The Final Order"? It is a very well presented and documented position, thats for sure. I read Prabhupadas last communication on the subject of initiations and it doesn't anywhere state that he appointed anyone as guru, but only as "ritvik" representatives of himself.So it seems to me he did clearly state this. I have also read numerous statements by many esteemed disciples of SP wherein they state that this is indeed what Prabhuapada set up and that the other systems were deviations. Regarding the poison theory, who really knows? I don't, and I've heard all the evidence that exists. I'm not completely convinced either way on the issue. In the final analysis I don't see that it will really amount to much though. Again, prabhus thank you for your responses.

 

Hare Krsna!

 

[stonehearted]

Prabhupadanuga wrote: "Have you read "The Final Order"? It is a very well presented and documented position, thats for sure."

 

stone: I've read this tract several times. It is rather cleverly presented, but it doesn't convince me. I've also spoken with its author, Krishnakant Desai. He's a bright young man, but the depth of his devotional convictions is questionable. As Srila Prabhupada often said, example is better than precept. As far as its documetation, lawyers argue mutually exclusive positions in their briefs, and both positions are supported by judicial dicta. I witnessed the San Diego ritvik "debates" of the early '90s. I was not impressed with either side. Actually, it's more precise to say I was deeply disppointed, even depressed, by both parties' conduct. They argued like lawyers, listening only to find flaws in the other side and score "points." I found no evidence that either side was willing to really discuss with the other with an eye to uncovering the truth; rather, all parties seemed convinced they had The Truth and that the others were simply miscreants. Ick!

 

P: "I read Prabhupadas last communication on the subject of initiations and it doesn't anywhere state that he appointed anyone as guru, but only as "ritvik" representatives of himself.So it seems to me he did clearly state this."

 

I've read this letter from Tamal Krishna Goswami dozens of times. In it he conveys instructions from Srila Prabhupada formalizing something he had done for years, and adding one extra element: the decision of who would be accpted. I consider myself a fairly sophisticated reader: I've been trying to follow Srila Prabhupada since 1969, and I've been teaching English at the university and college level since 1989. This letter, written by TKG and countersigned by Srila Prabhupada, makes clear how new disciples would be initiated through the duration of Srila Prabhupada's illness. So I don't see that TKG's letter mandates what has come to beknown as the "ritvik system" as clearly as you do.

 

P: "I have also read numerous statements by many esteemed disciples of SP wherein they state that this is indeed what Prabhuapada set up and that the other systems were deviations."

 

stone: I know many of these devotees. They are old and dear friends. Unlike the ISKCON bureaucracy, I don't doubt their good motives. In fact, however, this idea was proposed in the late '80s or early '90s in response to continued serious problems with ISKCON's leadership (or, perhaps, its lack thereof). I believe Nityananda, now also notorious for his advocacy of the poison theory, was the first public ritvik proponent. Nityananda and his wife are friends of ours, and we visit with them from time to time.

 

I also have old and very, very dear friends who believe that Srila Prabhupada was poisoned and that ISKCON will be saved as a result of the investigation. I don't see how this could help. I feel the time, money, and energy spent in this endeavor would be best spent finding ways to present Lord Chaitanya's teachings to the world. That in fact is the legacy of Srila Prabhupada and our entire spiritual family, especially that branch growing form Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur.

[mahak]

I dont buy it. There is no evidence of rtvikism as being what is taught by Srila Prabhupada. And this will spread into a hot topic as many want a religion for their investment in spirituality.

 

The final order is that we cooperate, this is all. The initial instruction must preceed any desire to get final orders, if one cannot chant and be happy alone, then why move onto other things?

 

Rtvik ideas may have some valid points, but application to levels seen on the net is far more than what is necessary for this age.

 

I agree that churches may be maintained for the advancement of society, but the philosophy of guru-tattwa is solid and must not be "reworked" by latter day followers and revisionists.

[Guest guest]

 

Why go through the whole ritvik charade ?

Whether you say you are intiating for another Guru who has passed on,or that you are intiating for the sampradaya,or that you are intiating for the purpose of continuing tradition, the result is the same.

 

Either way the initiator ends up being the initiator.

The connection is made to the Guru parampara.

The important connection is made through

siksa,the instructions given to the disciple according to time ,place,and circumstance.

 

The whole concern over ritvik,non ritvik,etc, is nothing more then an attempt

to gain legitmacy.

 

Legitimacy is flowing through anyone who is sincerely following the instructions of the Guru parampara.

 

If you try to imply illegitamacy based

on squabbles over initiating procedure

then the flow of truth is blocked by your own actions when trying to assert

that the truth is owned or controlled by you,or those who believe as you.

[Prabhupadanuga]

Stone,

PAMHO. AGTSP. Thank you for your reply. I am honored to be able to have such conversation with such a long standing devotee and disciple of Srila Prabhupada. I look forward to more enlightening conversation from yourself as well as all of the other devotees here.

Thank you all for your replies and patience as I ask these questions.

 

Hare Krsna!

[stonehearted]

What Shiva said is perfectly consistent with my understanding, especially, " Legitimacy is flowing through anyone who is sincerely following the instructions of the Guru parampara."

 

One problem I have with most of the ritvik shcools is the question of accepting responsibility for the initiation.

 

Devotees live in Merced? Cool! One of my Navy friends (in the '60s) was from Merced, and we used to drive past it when we lived near Three Rivers.

[stonehearted]

I never attempt to persuade anyone of my position on this issue; rather, I just try to explain it as clearly as I can, while communicating that I'm actually listening and sympathetic to their concerns. I appreciate the tone of this thread so far.

 

But watch out for any true believers on either side.

[atma]

As Stonehearted put it so nicely:

 

"but watch out for any true believers on either side"

 

What a bunch of fanatics, both sides, they put me completely off in everything. Take it from somebody that saw all the politics and know the people from very close. Dirty politics to the max.

Just chant Hare Krsna and be peaceful.

[Guest guest]

 

I'm glad this subject was brought up,it concerns mainly Indian people in the temples

in India.

 

Yey it is a very important subject for all of those who would like to see the mission of Sri Caitanya be established properly.

 

I will go back to a somewhat similar situation that occured in the 4th century a.d.

 

At the time the Roman empire was split into

regions controlled by generals.

 

There were many different religions,

mithraism,judaism,devotees of Sol invictus,devotees of Dyonisus,etc.

 

10% or so considered themselves to be some type of Christian.

 

They were the most vocal and preachy of all the sects,and were greatly divided among themselves over theology.

 

When Constantine decided to use Christianity

as a political tool,he formed the council

of Nicaea to establish a state religion.

The state theology will be deemed a legitimate theology t and all else will be deemed heretical.

 

At the time there were many different types of Christian theology.

The two main rivals for legitimacy were the gnostic theology which stated that Jesus was a human,an enlightened teacher,and that anyone could become like Jesus or surpass him.Jesus was not a Godhead or prophet like Muhammed,who to the shi'ite,was the last of God's prophets to be.

Jesus was seen as a teacher in a long line of teachers.

 

The other main Christian group claimed Jesus

to be the incarnation of God as a human.

They wanted Jesus to be the center of the religion,worshiped as a diety and approached

and understood and pleased through the

disciplic succession coming through Peter and Paul and the apostles.

 

Constantine seeing the benefit of having a state religion with a hierarchy with the top man being the disciplic successor like a King

holding all the power,installed this conception as the legitimate church theology and all else was pronounced heretical.

He installed himself as the successor to the apostles,made Christianity with the "nicaean creed" as state religion, and he became the theocratic ruler

of the Empire right before his death,although he never became a christian himself.

 

I see the same thing trying to be installed

with the ritvik issue.

There are those who seem to be trying to create a new religion with Srila Prabhupada

as the center of that religion.

Any other concept is deemed heretical by them,and only the sucessor who "accepts Srila Prabhupada as his lord and savior",

is the legitimate priest/ruler,and only he is able to give

initiation into the service and pleasure of God.

 

This theology in effect ends the Guru-Parampara,changing a living religion with

living gurus,into a dead religion dependent

on the accepted bonafide interpreters of the words

of the savior.

[stonehearted]

Here's a link to an essay by a Godbrother, Bhakti Bhavana Vishnu Maharaja. I concur in the perspective in this essay.

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/ritvik/index.html

[Guest guest]

 

when I said shi'ite,i meant to say sunni,in my last post.

The sunni believe muhammed was the last prophet for all time,

the shi'te believe in the reeappearence of the hidden Imam,another prophet yet to come.

[ethos]

This is written by an ex temple president and is a revealing chronology of ISKCON management history.

 

This essay specifically deals with the changing of Prabhupada's intentions and the consolidation of power.

 

It appears to be very objective and nonconfrontational. It is 20 printed pages directly online, but well worth the reading effort.

 

http://www.harekrsna.com/vada/nugas/manage.htm

[tsaneladi]

It is difficult to be unaffected by these testimonial timelines of the attempts by the GBC to maintain ISKCON while transforming to a multiple zone ruler system.

 

Some time ago I decided, as a newer devotee, to remain outside the scandal and do my best to maintain KC without becoming a part of the problem.

 

It would be interesting if an alternative network were to develop with a structure more true to the original intent.

 

Likewise, it is curious that the GBC, with a number of significant leaders who I believe have good intents, has such difficulty moving faster than a snails pace to reorganize an obviously failed and tainted ISKCON