Christian Missionaries

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

Francis Xavier (Christians in India still consider him a saint) arrived in India in 1542.

 

His life in India is given in detail in

 

Title: Francis Xavier; his life, his times. Translated by M. Joseph Costelloe

 

Volume II

 

Author: Schurhammer, Georg, 1882-1971.

 

Publisher: Rome, Jesuit Historical Institute, 1973-

 

Here as I was just browsing through the book I found a story where Francis visits the temple in Rameshwaram. Then Francis describes the deities of the temple as demons(very similar to the modern evangelists like Pat obertson) and that every moment remonds him that he is in a heathen country.

 

This guy portrays Brahmins as perfidous liars and subtle manipulators of popular ignorance and as the most perverse people in the whole world. Perhaps this is Xavier's frustration over his inability to convince the Brahmins to convert.

 

The letters of Xavier is published in the following book. I am not aware of any english version.

 

Epistolae S. Francisci Xaverii aliaque eius scripta, 2 vols., ed. G. Schurhammer and J. Wicki, Rome,1944-5.

 

I am not aware why these Christians hate Vedic religion so much. Perhaps someone who is/was a Christian can explain better. Also I think Xavier did not have any idea what the Vedas are.

 

Mu conclusion is that Francis Xavier is atmost a religious bigot.

[gHari]

Well he's sure as hell no bloody saint!

[Katwoman973]

I grew up in the Christian faith, and think most of the closed mindedness comes from basic lack of knowledge (and lack of desire for that knowledge) of other cultures and religious practices.

 

Many are ignorant of the positive sides of all other religions, because we are taught to "convert the world". I myself have now taken the view that I don't know what way is "right or wrong" and how could I dare tell God that I'm going to fight for this or that way because it's THE way.

The best I can do is follow my own path as best I can and if it helps someone along the way so be it, if not it's no big deal, because it is MY path.

 

Each person has to follow their own path, many organized religions don't want to promote that, I believe because it gives the very human side to religion a sense of control. Instead of finding the inner importance, it is sought outside the self.

 

I honestly don't believe that it is truly hate...it is fear, as well as the ego self of a person fighting to say "I'm right" (no matter how holy they think this is, it seems to me that it does come from the ego and not the heart). I can rarely discuss my own spiritual path with my mother, because she is so scared that I will be "lost", I just accept that we have different views, she has to worship the way that brings her closer to God, and I have to do the same. I hope as human beings we can all start thinking along this path instead of trying to prove one way is right or wrong.

 

Namaste,

Kenyatta

[Prabhupadanuga]

One must also understand that the Christian heremeutical principles lead them to a very exclusivist position with reference to the Person of Christ. They believe, based on their exegesis of the Bible, that Christ has made exclusive claims to not only Diety, but the ability to offer slavation to humanity. Any other pathst are simply the "doctrines of demons", and traps set by Satan to mislead people and drag them to hell. They will readily point out to you the words of Christ, "I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life, NO man comes to the Father but THROUGH ME." Now, again you're looking at two thousand years of exclusivist hermeneutical principles leading to such conclusions, so its not something given up lightly. Hope this helps.

[Sirona]

Think about Francis Xavier what you want, cursing him is definitely no good style.

 

Francis Xavier was a Jesuite, he belonged to the Pope's elite troop to re-establish the glory of the Catholic religion. So one surely can not expect lessons in religious tolerance from him. However his writings are 500 years old and he spoke only for the Caths, so his writings cannot be used as a measure for the attitude of today's Christians. Today the Pope pretends not to reject the good in other religions. As for me, I cannot estimate whether there is actual rejection today.

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

"Think about Francis Xavier what you want, cursing him is definitely no good style."

 

O yeah !!! Cursing Vedic deities is very civilized and good style. You are reacting so much for a man was cursed. Just imagine how a Hindu feels when he reads or hears their GODS are being cursed.

 

"Francis Xavier was a Jesuite, he belonged to the Pope's elite troop to re-establish the glory of the Catholic religion."

 

By cursing Vedic religion and Vedic deities ????

 

By the way what do you mean by "RE-ESTABLISH the glory of the Catholic religion". I think the church where you are going taught you some dubious version of history.

 

"So one surely can not expect lessons in religious tolerance from him. "

 

Agreed. This is true as these people cannot tolerate that other religions has some/more good in them. This is what I call religious bigotry.

 

"However his writings are 500 years old and he spoke only for the Caths, so his writings cannot be used as a measure for the attitude of today's Christians."

 

What are you talking about. It is a fact that the attitude of these Caths(particularly bishops etc) has not changed a bit with regard to vedic religion. This is based on my personal experience.

 

Did you say his writings are specifically directed to catholics(Imagine if it were a Hindu cursing your deity and calling it a demon and giving this sermon to Hindus). Are you trying to justify "cursing of Vedic deities as demons". So in effect you are saying that catholics do read such garbage which unmistakably shapes their opinions(even these days) of the Vedic religion given the positon of Francis Xavier in Catholic church and the sainthood he has received. (I don't understand how anyone can call him a saint)

 

This is very typical of low minded base people and this is what Francis Xavier did. Francis Xavier is a base personality at the most and I have a very good reason to curse him like that. But surely Francis Xavier had no reason to attack Vedic religion in the first place.

 

"Today the Pope pretends not to reject the good in other religions. As for me, I cannot estimate whether there is actual rejection today. "

 

Pope is no different than the rest of the bishops.

[Guest guest]

 

Catholics come in different flavors,like

chewing gum.

The priests may feel obligated to tow the party line "Jesus is God,only through the

the official succesion coming through the pope is god understood,all and everyone else are basically wrong and ignorant,only through Jesus and the pope is salvation attained."

That is the official dogma,and is a sort

of official statement that many in the actual church do not believe,but may say for

reasons of employment.

[Gauracandra]

My opinion, from what I've seen the average Catholic is quite open minded and friendly. I think they are quite different from Evangelical Christians. Perhaps being in the majority, they just have lost their zeal, I don't know. But Catholics I've met always seem perfectly accepting of other people's beliefs, even if they themselves don't accept them.

 

As for the saints of various traditions, I think in general it doesn't serve us well to spend our energy criticizing them. Perhaps they were wrong, or perhaps we don't see what they saw.

[gHari]

If he can't see God in the Deities, then he doesn't know God, nor can anyone consider him a saint. Perhaps he was moral and a nice guy, but without a relationship with Krsna no one can be considered a sadhu. Period. Proof of the pudding. Absolutely. No 'ifs ands or buts'. Nada. No way. Case closed. QED.

[karthik_v]

I agree with gHari prabhu. Inquisition of Goa is one of the worst crimes committed against the Hindus. They were burnt, killed, humiliated and their women raped and taken away. All under the directive of Vatican. Xavier himself played a very active role in the oppression of the Hindus. He had such a racist mindset against the people of colour. Apparently, he was a lot more racist than Jesus himself. Jesus knew of only 2 races and hence his racism was directed at Gentiles alone. Xavier knew a lot more races and consequently, his arena was larger too.

 

That the average Catholic is a nice human being doesn't mean that the Vatican is free from blame, just as the fact that the average Muslim is a nice human being doesn't absolve Islam of its crimes.

 

One doesn't become a saint just because he carries that prefix "St." or just because Vatican declared so. One who fails to be a nice and moral human being, doesn't qualify for sainthood. It is irony to say that "Xavier saw something which we don't" whereas the fact remains that he called the "heathen Hindus as having a heart as dark as their skin outside". In modern times, he would be called a racist. Should we call him a saint just because he lived 500 years ago?

[Sirona]

Guess I just found a racist. I hope that rational argumentation is not useless in such cases.

 

"Think about Francis Xavier what you want, cursing him is definitely no good style.

-----

I still hold my position. Francis has been declared a saint. If you want to know why, just ask the pope about this, not me. And because Francis has been declared a saint, he is prayed to.

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintf08.htm

You are perfectly free to change this, but in a rational manner.

 

-----------

 

O yeah !!! Cursing Vedic deities is very civilized and good style. You are reacting so much for a man was cursed.

Just imagine how a Hindu feels when he reads or hears their GODS are being cursed.

 

------------------

 

Just imagine how an average Catholic feels when he reads or hears that his favourite SAINT is being cursed. Average Catholics never read the facts about his life. He is just their object of veneration.

------------------

 

Francis Xavier was a Jesuite - fact

 

he belonged to the Pope's elite troop - fact, founded by Ignatius of Loyola

 

to re-establish the glory of the Catholic religion. - The Catholic religion had lost it's influence in Reason of the Reformation

-----------

By cursing Vedic religion and Vedic deities ????

------------------------

 

I did not curse them. Francis did.

If he does so he is in line with the Bible that curses other religion from the very beginning. Damning other religions is the core of the Bible. Please note: I do not support this, nor am I responsible for the contents of the Bible.

--------------------------------

 

By the way what do you mean by "RE-ESTABLISH the glory of the Catholic religion". I think the church where you

are going taught you some dubious version of history.

 

---------------------------

 

The things about Reformation (Luther, Jan Hus etc.), Counter-Reformation and the Jesuites are taught in any average books on European History. I would like to add that my statement was ironical, what you can see in the context of the next phrase "So one surely can not expect lessons in religious tolerance from him. " But either you are not capable of understanding irony, or you do not want to. Sad in both cases.

-

Agreed. This is true as these people cannot tolerate that other religions has some/more good in them. This is

what I call religious bigotry.

-

Call a sheep a sheep. You are right.

You should write a petition to the Pope. I guess you will be very succesful. In 1999 or so he declared saint John Scamander, who had persecuted the Czech who followed another style of Christianity (the Hussites) He killed them and burned their leader, Jan Hus.

--

 

"However his writings are 500 years old and he spoke only for the Caths, so his writings cannot be used as a

measure for the attitude of today's Christians."

 

What are you talking about. It is a fact that the attitude of these Caths(particularly bishops etc) has not changed a

bit with regard to vedic religion. This is based on my personal experience.

 

-----------

Based on my personal experience I can tell you that in my region the churches are empty because most of those who are interested in God have turned to other forms of religion (HINDU/BUDDHIST/ESOTERIC) and those Caths who are left have some other things to to than reading the works of some saint deceased 500 years ago.

-------------------------------

 

Did you say his writings are specifically directed to catholics(Imagine if it were a Hindu cursing your deity and

calling it a demon and giving this sermon to Hindus). Are you trying to justify "cursing of Vedic deities as

demons". So in effect you are saying that catholics do read such garbage which unmistakably shapes their

opinions(even these days) of the Vedic religion given the positon of Francis Xavier in Catholic church and the

sainthood he has received. (I don't understand how anyone can call him a saint)

 

----------------------

 

That is what you interpret into my words because you would like it to be like that. I said the very opposite. If you want to understand why people call him a saint you should somewhat get into Catholic weltanschauung. It does not matter what a saint did as long as he sacrificed himself. The Church official saint stories about the life of Francis Xavier are no historical reports but stories to increase a form of faith/bigotry and self sacrifice. If they are not true they are made up. Their meaning is always the same: Jesus sacrificed himself, saint XYZ sacrificed himself and so shall you.

I tell you again that average Caths are not informed what their saints really did. In fact they are not informed at all, nor do they care.

Please note that when I was a kid Francis was my patron saint and you are actually cursing what was "my deity" at that time. And you curse what is "the deity" of those who still pray to him.

 

---------------------

 

This is very typical of low minded base people and this is what Francis Xavier did. Francis Xavier is a base

personality at the most and I have a very good reason to curse him like that.

 

-------------------------

 

So you are higher minded? I wonder how being higher minded and cursing anybody goes together, because to my understanding a follower of the vedic religion should be equally minded to everybody and everything. Say the truth, call it from the roofs, publish it, because it is urgently needed, inform others, but do not curse, because this is tamas-guna, Ignorance, at its best.

 

-----------

 

But surely Francis Xavier had no reason to attack Vedic religion in the first place. - Perfectly right.

 

 

----------------

 

"Today the Pope pretends not to reject the good in other religions. As for me, I cannot estimate whether there is

actual rejection today. " Pope is no different than the rest of the bishops.

------------------------------

But the Caths are not only composed of bishops, as well as Hindus are not only composed of priests.

 

Hoping for a rational discussion,

 

Sirona

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Personally among Christian groups I like the Catholic religion, because of the tradition behind it and the worship of the deity, chanting etc.

 

At the same time I find their history highly disturbing. The amount of killing and other attrocities performed by the church, or under the instructions of the church, are unbelievable. They are responsible for destroying many native cultures. I think it shows that organized religion can be very corrupted, but the common followers can remain pure.

 

 

[gHari]

I don't see anyone 'cursing' Xavier here. It seems that some were just saying that in our terminology he is no saint if he derided God's form. Such a person can only be considered a poseur, by Krsna or by us.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Such a person can only be considered a poseur...

 

 

You just reminded me of Supervert. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

 

When is a part two going to be made?

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

"Guess I just found a racist. I hope that rational argumentation is not useless in such cases.

"

 

Am I a "racist" ??? Wonder where u got that idea. Stating TRUTH is not being racist. I have given rational reasons based on Xavier's own statements that he is a religious bigot.

 

"Just imagine how an average Catholic feels when he reads or hears that his favourite SAINT is being cursed. Average Catholics never read the facts about his life. He is just their object of veneration.

"

 

I have given the reason before stating the fact that he is a "religious bigot". This fact should be known to all Hindus and catholics.

 

"I did not curse them. Francis did.

If he does so he is in line with the Bible that curses other religion from the very beginning. Damning other religions is the core of the Bible. Please note: I do not support this, nor am I responsible for the contents of the Bible.

"

 

Who said that you cursed anything. I meant only Francis Xavier cursed and expected you to see some reason as you were trying to justify ignorance on the part of Francis Xavier.

 

"The things about Reformation (Luther, Jan Hus etc.), Counter-Reformation and the Jesuites are taught in any average books on European History. I would like to add that my statement was ironical, what you can see in the context of the next phrase "So one surely can not expect lessons in religious tolerance from him. " But either you are not capable of understanding irony, or you do not want to. Sad in both cases. "

 

Irony !!! Is it so. I did not get you as I did not read about European history. Anyway I was concerned about Francis Xavier's life in Asia. In that context Europe does not come into picture and I could not understand what yiu wrote.

 

"Call a sheep a sheep. You are right.

You should write a petition to the Pope. I guess you will be very succesful. In 1999 or so he declared saint John Scamander, who had persecuted the Czech who followed another style of Christianity (the Hussites) He killed them and burned their leader, Jan Hus.

"

 

Calling Francis Xaver a religious bigot is based on fact.

 

"So you are higher minded? I wonder how being higher minded and cursing anybody goes together, because to my understanding a follower of the vedic religion should be equally minded to everybody and everything. Say the truth, call it from the roofs, publish it, because it is urgently needed, inform others, but do not curse, because this is tamas-guna, Ignorance, at its best"

 

I never said I am high minded. It is your imagination.

 

"Say the truth" ???

 

What do you think I was doing on my past posts.

 

Again I have given reasons for you before giving out my conclusion.

 

I stand on my conclusion that "FRANCIS XAVIER is low minded and a religious bigot" based on reading the views of Francis Xavier on Vedic religion. Xavier is no different than Pat Robertson. Can you deny this.

 

Stating that fact does not mean that "I am a racist", nor does it mean that "I am immersed in tamo guna".

 

If you still insist on cursing me then you are only confirming the fact that Francis Xavier is even several times lower than I am since atleast I have rational reason for cursing him while Xavier had none to curse Vedic deities.

 

I wonder why you still consider him a saint after knowing the fact that Xavier is religious bigot, otherwise why all this argument going on between us.

[gHari]

Adventure Two will be made when I feel I can top or at least equal number one. My son approved the idea for number two a year back. He was chosen for the Mars Mission. He gets his trunks caught on the edge of a cresent moon, but then skates down the cresent into a perfect Mars trajectory. I haven't followed through with it yet though. Oddly enough, this was before the real Mars miss happened, when the movie was coming out.

 

Episode one took likely 40 man-days and was divinely inspired (or at least inspired, for the words just poured out daily).

 

The world is quickly falling away from this old fool. There may be no more SuperVert. Money has lost its glory. Krsna is being very kind, exhibiting His absolute authority over my silliness. He is indeed Hari.

 

It is such a kind friend we have in Sri Krsna. And very very strong; because He carries what I lack.

[Gauracandra]

Yes, the more Supervert the better /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif I think it would make a great Saturday morning cartoon /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Gauracandra]

I like the Catholic approach to Christianity also. There really is a split in approach between Catholic and Protestant groups. I think the Catholic church has over the last two thousand years has developed a certain intellectual rigor that is not found within Protestant denominations. That is there is a certain deepness and heartyness (for lack of a better word) to their presentation of Christianity. I first took note of this once while watching a Catholic priest speak. His words were so dense and heavy. As such generally the lay Catholic folk don't really read the Bible. Instead they let the "guy's in charge" tell them whats in the Bible. After all these are very intelligent people well versed in theology. The Protestant approach is nice in that it breaks down those barriers. The average Protestant I think is far more likely to have actually read the Bible than the average Catholic (from my understanding). They are likely to have small discussion groups where they read and discuss various passages. The problem here is that you have people who aren't really trained in theology, making their own determinations. As such Protestant groups "tend", and I say this carefully, to come across as a bit intellectually light weight. Instead Christianity turns into self-help, or showmanship. So we have the two extremes. One is traditional, rigorous, heirarchical approach which might drown out individual inspiration (not always, but sometimes), the other approach is more of a free for all, where people decide what they want to accept, and it becomes watered down.

[Sirona]

I feel sorry killed for the people in India, and I can understand if you feel upset by the name of Francis Xavier. In fact the place where I head something "independent" about Francis Xavier was the Indiadivine forum.

What really lies behind all this is the bad question of violence and religion. Violence is not a phenomenon of a single religion or a single époque. It may appear anytime and anywhere.

 

[karthik_v]

Dear Sirona,

 

Thanks for the empathy you displayed by understanding the sufferings the Hindus faced at the hands of the Catholics under the guidance of Vatican. Xavier, in particular, was a thorough racist and inflicted enormous pains on the Hindus. He was just a scum bag and no saint.

 

Most of the times we accept someone as a saint because we are told so. A fifty years from now, children in Italy may really start to believe that pope Pius XII was a saint. Those Jews who went to the camps because of his machinations would feel otherwise.

 

In my opinion, Vatican and the other Christian denominations are no different. While the Protestants are overtly abusive of Hinsuism, the Catholics are covert. This doesn't mean that the average Christian is evil. Generally, they are ignorant of the machinations of the church. But the church in itself, is evil. Vatican in particular, given its sophisticated network.

[bhaktajoy]

Very few follow Lord Jesus Christ today.He was love personified.After Xavier left his body God must have shown him all that he said and done against people of other faiths.Of course nobody is perfect not even the demigods.In the life review process he saw all his sinful activities.Does that mean he will take birth again in order to understand the pain he inflicted upon others?Maybe.

[Guest guest]

Where do you guys get your info on Jesus ?

 

I recommend a book 'The Hiram key'

 

It shows the true history of judasism,

from sumeria where it has it's roots.

To Abraham the "founder" who was a

follower of those ancient gods.

Then to moses who added a new egytian aspect.

then to others ending up with the nasorean(nazerene,essene) sect jesus belonged to.

 

They were an orthodox jewish sect in the line coming from moses.

Paul hijacked the religion after all the members of the sect died at masada.

Paul was reviled by the sect,he created a new religion having nothing to do with jesus,or his beliefs.

This was done after hearing aboiut jesus ,never actually meeting him.

He was excoriated by the essenes

as a liar and desirous of gaining wealth and followers.

Paul is the architect of modern christianity,all based on his made up religion,distorting everything jesus did,said,or believed.

[karthik_v]

Of course, none but Krishna Himself is perfect. I often find it funny that some people are trying to portray Jesus as the epitome of perfection. He had his own share of defects - for example, he was a racist. That doesn't negate the fact that he was great in many other ways. For example consider this verse from Mark 7:27, where a Gentile woman pleads with Jesus to save her daughter. Jesus bluntly refuses to heal her and says:

 

"But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs."

 

Here the word "children" refers to the Jewish people and "dogs" refers to "Gentiles". If only a Hindu saint had uttered those words, the missionaries would have made a propaganda out of it and reviled him. By now, heathen India would have become entirely Christian. I am not demanding that we Hindus go about highlighting the darker side of Jesus [which of course existed], but we need not go overboard glorifying him - that too as the "son of the Lord". He was no greater than the great saints of India such as Adi Sankara, Ramanuja or Raghavendra. In fact, much less.

 

Shiva is correct in stating that Jesus just founded a Jewsish sect. Today's Christianity, Catholic or otherwise, has no connection to his teachings. This is entirely a concoction of Paul.

[gHari]

It was written: "Here the word "children" refers to the Jewish people and "dogs" refers to "Gentiles"."

 

This presumption just seems like lunacy to me. I would strongly recommend that we hold no negative opinions of either Lord Jesus or Mohammad, for who among us knows the truth of who they really were. We know that Krsna draws great unhappiness from the offending of His devotees. If we are humble we will be careful. Are we willing to bet our post in Vrindavan on rumours we hear and read? Not I.

[Guest guest]

actually jesus did not creat a sect,after the translation of the dead sea scrolls

came out, a picture of the sect that jesus belonged to became clear.

 

They were a jewish sect long before jesus

was born.

 

He did not change anything.

His importance was created by paul.

 

The pharisees hired saul of tarsus

to ferret out and attack and arrest the members of the messianic(revolutionary) sects because they were in league with the roman authorities and did not want rome to punish the entire community.Saul became Paul.

 

Paul supposedly underwent conversion,and spent three years at damascus(not the city in syria,the code name for qumran,the nasorean community/garrison.

 

The dead sea scrolls describe when one wanted to convert to their community they must spend three years as an apprentice ,then they are initiated.

 

After his three years paul began his work with the sect.

This was years after the death of jesus.

James,jesus's brother was the leader.

After many complaints about paul from others he was sent to turkey as a way of getting him out of their hair and possibly

making others angry at the sect.

 

Paul created a new theology with jesus

as the center,this is mentioned in the

new testament,also the fact that the jerusalam church under james(qumran was their country garrison) became estranged from paul,paul even says they were preaching different religions,all of this is in the new testament.

 

It appears to me that possibly Paul was part of a conspiracy of divide and conquer,sowing confusion and discord among the jewish community on purpose as a puppet of the pharisees.

 

The dead sea scrolls gives the view of the same time and activities from the perspective of those living it.

 

The bible was written years later by people who were not present,and it was slanted to make paul come out the hero and

prophet.

Another good book is 'the dead sea scroll deception', showing the actions of the catholic church in keeping the scrolls from public viewing for almost 40 years after the start of translation.