JN DAS PRABHUJI PLEASE HELP!

[bhaktajoy]

I posted this stuff on some .

 

"When someone dies in a

war, it is due to his fructified karmas, both from the past and from

the present life. But the person who is killing, he is utilizing his

free will and creating a fresh karmic reaction, which he will suffer

in his next life. Krishna's role as supersoul is as a witness and a

sanctioner. He witnesses our actions so that we will be held

accountable through karmic reactions."

 

I got following reply:-

 

"Dear Joy, Please help me out here if you can. There is something about the above quote that doesnot quite gel with my spirit. How is it that the person who is killing, isn't also reacting to his fructified karmas from the past? I am not clear on why his karmic reaction would be fresh. I mean why would he be killing someone, if he also had not been killed in a past life? The other thing that baffles me a little, is that if Krishna witnesses our actions so that we will be held accountable through karmic reaction, does not such karmic reaction thus generate more of the same, and therefore less of the accountability that Krishna would wish for us? how does being murdered by someone in this present life because of my past action of killing someone in a previous life make one a more accountable person? It is more likely that such an individual would continue the unaccountable behaviour of murdering and being murdered until some form of Forgiveness of self and others, and by self and others enters the picture. Some form of Grace has to enter the arena for that person, for their Awareness to be raised to a place where they can then be accountable. And therefore is Krishna not the source of grace, forgiveness and accountability, or is he just a witness to it as quoted? Is there something I am missing here, and if so can anyone help to clarify what that may be, or do you see the point I am making?"

 

What should I say now?Please help.

[JRdd]

This is a great discussion. I can't wait to see the replies from some of our intelligent knowledgeable forumites here, I myself feel inadequate to the task. But my wee contribution is: reflection on samsara, the seemingly endless wheel of karma, birth and death and rebirth, which indeed can only be stopped by divine mercy. That's why we chant Hare Krsna. That stops the cycle of repeated births and deaths due to the karmic reactionary cycle your respondent described. Of course that does not answer your question, but I think this is an important side note. What about Krsna being witness? He is always there directing us with our utmost interests in mind, but we (or most of us maybe) don't know how to listen much yet. I like that painting in the Bhagavad-gita of the two birds in the tree...

[bhaktajoy]

The group is at www.nde

[shvu]

 

 

What should I say now? Please help.

 

 

 

Do you believe that God is omniscient? If you do, it follows that there is no free will. Because God (being omniscient) already knows and is fully aware of what you will do at any point of time in the future. Therefore, everything is pre-destined and what we will do during the course of our lives is already known.

 

Bin Laden was destined to be a killer, someone else was destined to be killed and so on. Whether these events teach them something or helps them evolve is not known. But in the light of the above truths, it doesn't matter for there is nothing that can be done about it, either way. That answers the questions.

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

 

Whatever activity one performs ,be it

murder,killing in defense or war,or any non death activity is creating Karma good or bad depending on the consciousness of the actor and the intent of his action.

 

Karma is created as long as the consciousness of the actor is under the influence of the modes of nature and the illusory energy, Maha-Maya.

 

When an activity is not acted out under the influence of Maya,or the modes of nature,and

performed in knowledge of Dharma and Shastra,with the desire to utilize the result

for the satisfaction of the desire of God,then that action is free from Karma,and situates one on the transcendental platform,which is characterized by Blissfulness,and awareness of eternal knowledge.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

How is it that the person who is killing, isn't also reacting to his fructified karmas from the past?

 

 

The actions we perform are based on our desire and freedom to act. We are consciously making decisions every second of the day, and these choices are not simply determined based on previous karmic reactions. If that were the case, then we would be nothing but clocks, once wound destiny would automatically follow its designed pattern. The future is open for all of us, we have the choice to be pushed along by our inclinations (karma vasanas) or to rise beyond them and establish our own destiny.

 

 

I am not clear on why his karmic reaction would be fresh.

 

 

Very simply, because it is a conscious choice he is making, not a reaction brought on to him without his control. We are all living individuals with consciousness and freewill. It is that execution of freewill in determining "will I do this or not" that creates the fresh reaction.

 

 

The other thing that baffles me a little, is that if Krishna witnesses our actions so that we will be held accountable through karmic reaction, does not such karmic reaction thus generate more of the same, and therefore less of the accountability that Krishna would wish for us?

 

 

Let us look at crime and punishment on a more perceptable scale. Does a states punishing a criminal lead him to more crime or to rectify his ways? The purpose of course is to educate the criminal in the law and to reform him from his life of crime - while simultaneously keeping him from harming others. The criminal may become further entangled in his inner hatred towards the legal system and inthe future carry out more criminal activities despite everything he has experienced - which was for his own welfare as well as that of others. Punishing a criminal brings accountability whether the criminal accepts it or not, both for himself and other would be criminals. Having said that, the laws of karma are reactions to our activities, not simply punishments to keep us in order. In the cyclical universal system, everything we do is ultimately to ourselves, and all energy - both positve and negative - comes back to us through the influence of time. These are natural laws more than just a system of reformation - though that aspect may be included within these laws in some cases.

 

 

It is more likely that such an individual would continue the unaccountable behaviour of murdering and being murdered until some form of Forgiveness of self and others, and by self and others enters the picture. Some form of Grace has to enter the arena for that person, for their Awareness to be raised to a place where they can then be accountable. And therefore is Krishna not the source of grace, forgiveness and accountability, or is he just a witness to it as quoted?

 

 

Ultimately every activity we perform, both good and bad, binds us in the cycle of debt through karmic reactions. The laws of karma are so stringent that we cannot escape any of our dues, no matter how trivial they may be. The entire process becomes completely entangling, for just to receive our due results we automatically perform more binding activities. It is like nuclear reactions which, though started by us, at some stage become uncontrollable. We become enveloped in the cycle of action and reaction, and thereby seemingly lose our true freedom to act.

 

In the Gita Lord Krishna explains the key to become free from this cycle of action and reaction:

 

yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra

loko 'yam karma-bandhanah

tad-artham karma kaunteya

mukta-sangah samacara

 

"Selfless work done as a sacrifice for the divine has to be performed, otherwise work binds one to this material world. Therefore, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain unattached and free from bondage."

 

All activities bind us more and more, yet it is impossible to remain without action. Therefore we must become instruments of the divine and work selflessly for the Supreme, offering all reactions to Him. This is the only way to free our selves from the bondage of work.

[bhaktajoy]

Jn Das Prabhuji thank you so much for your kind reply!I salute your dedication to Krsna conciousness.God bless u.

[Gauracandra]

I have a question. To what degree does punishment by the government offset one's karma? That is, you steal something, are incarcerated for some time, or kill and are put a way or executed. Is there any way of knowing if you have "burned" off your karmic reactions, or is there more to come?

[Guest guest]

what is important to remember is that

the purpose of life is to be a part of the solution,not a part of the problem.

 

There is a minute amount of free will,shvu

stated there is no free will,if that were true there would be no need for any suffering

and all would be perfection.

 

The truth is that the jiva has a minute amount of free will,minute means extremely

tiny,almost non existent.

 

The fact is that god has written everything out before we act it out.

 

Our sojourn in the "material" world is for the purpose of perfecting our consciousness.

Changing our desire from selfishness and the exploitative mentality,to the mind set of pure giving and inoffensive behavior.

 

Our karmic debt is for our own purification

and enlightenment.

When our time comes we are brought into the association of the transcendental realm.

In the view of the enlightened soul everything is going on according to the plan and guidance of God.

 

There are no deviations, only mistaken

vision.

 

Krishna says "everyone follows my path in ALL respects"

 

No one is free to do as he likes,everything is under constant supervision.

 

The goal is the raising of the subconscious desire from the depths of selfishness and exloitative desire,to the heights of loving Rasa.

[Gauracandra]

It seems to me that karma is only mysterious when it deals with past life reactions. The law of karma, or the law of action and reaction, is experienced every day. For instance, if I walk around with a surly attitude, others will react to me in a similar manner. Or suppose I smoke two packs of cigarettes per day and develop lung cancer. Its not that God is punishing me in any way. It is simply that the natural consequence of a bad activity is a bad reaction. The reaction of smoking on the body is entirely natural - it causes cancer. Perhaps we can call this "everyday karma".

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Or we could call it "Instant Karma" (from the song with the same name).

 

"Instant Karmas gonna get you..."

 

[Avinash]

I smoke two packs of cigarettes per day and develop lung cancer. Its not that God is punishing me in any way. It is simply that the natural consequence of a bad activity is a bad reaction.

 

Just for the sake of argument, assume that you smoke a lot and get lung cancer. Is it not possible that you enjoyed smoking because of something wrong that you did in previous life?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Inclinations and desires will be there from our past lives, but there is nothing that forces you to go through with a decision in the present. Everyone has the power to make their choices, even against their inclinations or spontaneous desires. The karma-vasanas leave a residual impression in the mind, which pushes us towards activities, like the flow of a river. It may be easier to swim with the current (the inclinations), but it is possible to swim against the current. The natural system seems to be to follow the path of least resistance, therefore many people give in to temptation (or the residual impressions from past activities).

 

The choice itself is what determines the future, not the karma-vasanas. It is not because of the inclination to smoke that one develops lung cancer. It is because of the physical activity of smoking, which is brought out by a conscious choice to smoke. The karma-vasanas just facilitate this fate like the flow of the river.

 

[gHari]

As so eloquently said above: :It may be easier to swim with the current (the inclinations), but it is possible to swim against the current."

 

This is Arjuna saying that he will not fight.

 

Krsna then teaches him why and how to "swim against the current".

[gHari]

We cannot know the original sin, buried in our antiquity. During the eons spent encaged in some eight million species of life forms, we were bound to develop so many abominable tastes and habits.

 

Our attachments (desires) and karma are carried with us in our subtle bodies formed of mind, intelligence, and false ego. I like JNdas's word 'inclination' for these, since they are indeed surmountable.

 

Eventually we will be ready. Praising God's names hastens our readiness.