Rodent infestation, ok to kill?

[transient]

Dear jndas prabhu,

 

Thanks for the quotes. It is true that a devotee is always compassionate to all living entities and treat everyone, including animals, as his brother. Please do not misunderstand my stand as if I am campaigning for the killing of rats or other insects which is far from the truth. I feed the birds that come to my house everyday with prasadam and always very careful not to kill an ant. The point being made was if a rat or an insect becomes the aggressor, then they may be killed if they cannot be removed by non-lethal means. But by your not addressing this particular issue, you tend to impress me that even this, the killing an aggressor, is wrong. You also seem to tell us that we should welcome rats and other insects to our house with open arms.

 

In a more favorable setting, maybe in a rustic village with a less congested population and where nature naturally takes its course, this may be ideal. However when you live in cities where there is filth everywhere and rats scurry through the city's sewerage system which serves as the breeding ground for all kinds of diseases, communion with rats, mosquitoes and cockroaches are sometimes fatal. So you examine your priorities. If you live in a place where Vaishanavas can only be counted in one's fingers, better to have a dead rat than a dead preacher.

 

It is Kali yuga and many methods and spiritual practices are getting very difficult to implement or altogether no longer applicable including the feeding of insects and animals within one's house. In the later part of Kali yuga, it is said that rats will grow in size and will feed on humans, what will you do?

 

This is precisely the reason why Lord Chaitanya has come down and inaugurated the Sankirtan movement and has given us the Holy Names as the only method of purification in this day and age. We do what we can to follow the Vedic setup where it is practicable because it is the most ideal. However if it is no longer applicable and favorable, you have to give it up and stick to the essentials of trying to give the Holy Names and Krishna-prasad to people. In places outside India, in most cases, this is the only thing you can do.

[Gauracandra]

Out of curiosity, did Srila Prabhupada not realize that it was Kali Yuga a mere 25 years ago and that he was teaching us useless information that he did not intend for us to follow? My honest opinion is that most people (devotees) don't really believe in Karma. It is more of a theory or philosophy, but it doesn't actually exist. If you do believe in karma and say you will gladly accept the reactions, then why not accept them now in a lesser form by enduring some inconvenience. Everyone is talking like "All these preachers are going to be killed by rats, so we must kill them first." [way overblown, IMHO] If your karma is that you will be killed by rats, then that is what will happen. And suppose you kill the rats today, and then tomorrow or in your next life you die of cancer, or someone comes along and shoots you, then how have you stopped it? You haven't. But the fact is, if tomorrow you developed brain cancer, and you could trace it back that in your last life you killed 25 rats, would you make a different choice? I bet you 100% of people undergoing chemo-therapy would make a different choice. But because we don't actually believe in karma, we say "I'll take on the karma, no problem." In any event, I'm sure DNA already knows what he will do, so either way its not too much of my concern.

[theist]

Not to side track the thread.But the idea of not really believing in karma rings a certain bell.

 

I have detected in myself, this belief in karma but somehow it doesn't really apply to me.It's for everybody else.LOL.

 

I don't think I'm exempt due to "being a devotee" and thus out of the karmic loop.It is just that I think I'm due to receive some "special mercysometime" and since Krsna knows this the demigods are not really keeping score on me.LOL again.It's okay, I'm laughing too.You know,like I'm holding a get out of jail free card in a monopoly game.

 

Ridiculous?Yes, and I know it, but yet it persists, lurking in my subconscious,barely perceivable.

 

I'm sure it would be OK to kill that rat, but it is sooo ellusive.

[transient]

Dear Gaurachandra,

 

When I said I'd be willing to accept karmic reactions by killing that rat (rat the aggressor, not indiscrimate killing), I could have acted out of courage or out of ignorance, you be the judge.

 

Please quote anything that I've said that was opposed to the teaching of Srila Prabhupada. That was rather a heavy accusation there what you did.

 

As far as you're saying "If your karma is that you will be killed by rats, then that is what will happen" and by saying this you mean that I will then welcome the company of rats in my house (in line with jndas's suggestions), I don't buy that line of reasoning because it is akin to someone saying: "If it's my karma to die with lung cancer, so be it" and he continue to go on smoking.

 

Thanks anyway for suggesting that we should be willing to accept some inconvenience for the sake of these little creatures. I will keep that in mind. Haribol.

[tsaneladi]

It would seem that these scenarios are REAL proof of devotion. If you can be compassionate to the point of allowing rats and mosquitos in your home at the risk of your childrens health, then you are surely resolved in true devotion and belief in the principles stressed by Srila P.

[Guest guest]

When we were serving at the old Huston Temple on Rosalie Street Goura Nitais boga room would become filled with rats as soon as we finshed up the cleaning at night.

They seems to come in from under the door and by Krishna Grace didnt go past the boga room.

At that time all the devottes were very sensitive of how to get rid of the rats in the less volient of ways so we would place a cat at night in the boga room.

When we would put the cat in all hell seemed to break out in that room.

All kinds of noised the cat would make but we never saw and dead rats .

It seemed by the present of the cat each night the rats just advoided the place and in a short time we never saw any more rats

where before there were at least 20 living within the room.

Here in China which i have just returned there were also so many rats seen everyday seraching within the rumbage car in the fount of our house.

The city would place posion rice dyded bright red outside before but the rats seemed never to be affected by it.

Now we have seen we have many cats living and sleeping in the plants in fornt of the house,one very beautiful white cat likes to sleep under our bogaviya bushes and where there were many rats before none can be seen any longer.

To stop ants placeing corlox beach on the areas they tread seems to reduce the favoabity of thier wandering into your house

at certian time when the rains come they like to take shelter of the house.

I have to constantly ask our Chinese guess not to kill them as they seem to enjoy crushing whole lines of them at once.

I sweep up the roaches on thier back and through them out side the windows .there is something about roaches that terifies me but it also terifies me when when one of our Chinese friends crushes them under thier shoes.

In China there is a small electric devise that they place a scented tablet on that keep the mosquito out compeltly they say it kills them but I have never seen and eveidence of this.

So I use it when the room has mosquitos.

When in Bombay temple Patiti Udaran told once he complained to Srila Prabhupada about the roaches in the San Fransico Temple asking His Divine Grace could we kill them Srila Prabhupada?

He told me Srila Prabhupada look him right in the face and told him"You should be Killed"

Then in Bombay rats would allways be playing on the window stills at night of our rooms there were no screens but we just

let them along I never saw them enter the temple.

In Calcutta we would sleep on the roof of Radha Govinda s temple there on Albert road and wake at night many time have rats at our feet,we were tolf that they had a way of cuting the feet and blowing on it at the same time while one slept making it painless

to the sleeping and like a vampire drink to blood of the sleeper.

Forgently Im a lite sleeper,cats seem like the best deterent to rats when the rats detect the scent of a cat they advoid the place

ys

pita das

[Guest guest]

In China they use geese to rid a place of snakes .The geese are said to effectly keep snakes off and out of ones property.

In the country where there are snakes geese are allways used like this

pita das

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Dear Pita prabhu,

 

I have just reset your password and sent you an email with information about it. If it still doesn't work, or if you don't check that email account any more please tell me. If it is easier for you to post as guest you can continue doing it.

 

[Guest guest]

I havent been able to enter the forurm in the way I did before so Im comming as your offical guest .

my email is www.artmaya@hotmail.com or gajhymay@public.xm.fj.cn in China or avery_g@bellsouth.net in atlanta usa .

Thank you for your nice service to the devottees and Sri Sri Guru and Gouranga

[Avinash]

Did Yudhisthira suffer from karmic reaction when he lied to Dronacarya that Ashvatthama had been killed?

[mahak]

Haribol, from my understanding, prior to the "lie" about the son of drona, King Yudhisthira was not really a terrestrial being. His feet did not touch the surface of this planet of death, Martyaloka. When he agreed to the deception, which was the only way that Dronacarya could be possibly defeated, his feet then touched the surface. However, this is not seen by this writer as a karmic reaction, because his "lie" was devotional service, but, for our benefit, the reaction that did take place means that the very symbolic manifestation of the TRUE, the incarnation of DHARMA (religious principles) is not exempt from basic laws. Thus, King Yudhisthira did not suffer karma, but accepted his touch of this loka as a teaching tool for the people in general, much like the "nervous breakdown" by Arjuna while viewing his enemies.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

 

PS My previous post about how I kill rats is not a teaching tool, it is a problem of exasperation that I must pay for in the court of YAMA. Thanks, Jahnava, for your teaching in this matter, and I will try a little more humility when it comes to our furry brothers.

[tsaneladi]

I am interested in the phrase "spiritual communism". Did he see that as a frequent reference or is this a one time description for the sake of clarification.

 

Again, I find this to be at the crux of dedvotion. clearly, IMHO, he is saying not to kill the mice and rats and in fact to assist them. It is a very difficult choice to include rats in the presence of your children in the home.

[mahak]

Haribol, once, when a devotee slapped a mosquito during a lecture (or maybe it was group japa), Srila Prabhupada called the disciple the aggressor.

 

The rats need nesting material, and are not inimical toward human beings. Mosquitos need albumin, and do not care about the source, and are not inimical toward human beings.

 

Some snakes, and scorpions, I have heard, are indeed, inimical toward humans (and every animal as well). There may be justification in these cases, but we also have the example of Janamejaya, who had every reason to kill the serpant that killed his father, King Pariksit. But he was convinced to spare the life of Takasaka, so even the inimical are seen by the devotee as greater, kinder, more devoted, etc. This is the meaning of Siksastakam.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[livingentity]

I have a huge herd of mice in my barnyard which of course, attracts the snakes. Mosquitos practically carry us off in the summer and the scorpians just kinda appear and are the size of small tanks.

 

I can not kill anything but how do I control this so I can go outside in the summer?

 

I am considering a cat but there are coyotes (very predatory) and would feel like I contributed to the death of a kitty living entity if the coyotes get it. Cats disappear out here all the time.

 

Should I just consider these things to be always in attack mode and handle it that way? I mean basically they are - the snakes will strike in seconds, the mice have diseases, the mosquitos attack and also carry disease and well, the scorpians I am not sure about.

 

The snakes are extremely scary - rattle snakes!!!

 

It's a lovely neighborhood!!

[Guest guest]

"What if a burglar breaks into my house? "

 

The response depends on the gunas you have at the time

and how much saintly you are.

 

many saints of india did nothing.

some even helped burgerl find valuble if any.

 

once i saw a chinese documentary.

 

a burgeler broke a window and entered the house.

the househoder woke up and the burgler was about to run away. the owner said, wait, wht you want.

he wanted some money , so he gave him.

then he said, "next time you come, knock on the door.

no need to break my window."

 

the response depends also on true varna of the house owner.

 

a each varna would respond differently.

a kshatriya would really punish the burgler.

 

a KC person has possessions and any wealth for krishna.

he must protect it from burglers who would use it for wine women, drug, gambling ,and meat eating.

 

similarly, a vedic nation/soceity must protect the society

from invaders who intend to drestroy vedic infrastructure and vedic way of living. to not do so is adharma.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[anveshan]

How can you think of mooshika hatya? The divine Rolls Royce of Shri Vighneswara, they are his messengers too.

They might be visiting your house with a message, a message divine.

 

I would suggest constructing a Mooshika Dev Mandir in your court-yard, conducting daily poojas, serving them coconuts as prasadam.

 

And you should recite shree mooshikashtakam every day before you go to sleep.

 

Sree mooshikaya namaha:

[Mxyzptlk]

It's a lovely neighborhood!!

 

So, you have to ask yourself what would Mr. Rogers do in your situation. After all, he was a principled vegetarian, a gentleman who seemed to be sensitive towards the needs of all creatures great and small.

[livingentity]

I figure I just keep tiptoeing around all the scary beasties. They were here first and there is no way I could kill any of them. I considered one of those humane traps for the little mice but then they would get carried out into the empty desert away from the warmth and comfort of my little barn.

 

Should I knit little cardigans?

[Mxyzptlk]

That is a dilemma, what with all those predatory creatures there. Probably man has messed up the balance of nature in Kali-Yuga, with all the hunting and killing, and some species becoming almost extinct.

 

Normally a cat would be good to take care of the mice problem, but like you said, there are coyotes there who will kill the cats. Sounds like there are a lot of mice, if even the snakes can't keep them in check.

 

I don't know, maybe get a mountain lion for the coyotes?

 

Or maybe put some canine-repellent on the small cardigans for the cats?

 

Rattlesnakes and large scorpions, sounds scary! Wish I had some answers. Maybe walk softly and carry a big stick? I don't know.

[livingentity]

The snakes go into hybernation in the winter so the mice go wild!! I have a couple of king snakes that live in my barnyard in the summer and handle the mice. It is just in the winter that it is out of control. Fortunately, it is far enough away from my house that they do not enter it!! This is typical in a barnyard out here.

 

Mountain lions we have also. Thank you very much for reminding me of them!! They are pretty much recluses but every so often they come in close and create havoc. Unlike the coyotes the mountain lions are fearless and will jump fences etc.

 

Yes, man has done a lot of damage out here. I have noted in the five years that i have been here that the wild rabbits appear to be less and less which is probably why cats have become a main course for the coyotes.

 

Now there is a marketing idea - canine resistant cat sweaters!! Hmmmmm...............A lot of little old ladies would love us!!!

[Mxyzptlk]

Yes, I can see how the dwindling number of rabbits there, as well as other small critters, would make cats an appealing target of prey for the coyotes.

 

One thought that came to my mind: many animal shelters kill (or "put to sleep" as they call it) the cats and dogs which no one wishes to adopt. I was wondering if it would be feasible (and ethical) to rescue some of these soon-to-be terminated cats and let them live out their lives at your farm, roam freely, eating mice, and let them take their chances with the coyotes instead of with the vet's inevitable lethal injection. At least they would probably live longer, and their quality of life would be better. You could feed them prasad on occassion. At least they would have a fighting chance with the coyotes in that they could try to outrun them, something which they are unable to do at these "shelters" while trapped in their cages.

[livingentity]

That is an excellent idea but sadly the local animal shelter does not accept cats.. people turn them loose in the desert!! That is just cruelty!!

 

Last summer I had a couple of cats show up here and I encouraged them to stick around. I would see them in my yard every night but then they disappeared. I like to think they had a home and were just visiting at night rather than the alternative!

[anveshan]

 

"In Delhi they extend it to cows. They kill thousands of stray cows throughout the city because they feel they are traffic hazards.."

 

Here we do not kill cows. Cow slaughter is prohibited, but the "sudra" cows(buffalos) are slaughtered in the govt. slaughter houses. I do not know whether they are classified as "aghanya' or "mata".

 

However, a year back, there was an incident of a Muslim bull killing a Hindu, that too an RSS worker going to his morning shakha.

[Coyote]

 

There are some electronic devices you can plug in that emit a sound offensive to mice. They work quite well.

 

They will go someplace else. Same with mosquitos-when I travel to india I take a device that has two programs-one the sound of dragonfly wings (works in South India) and one that makes a noise like a male mosquito-works better in the North-don't think it speaks the same language as S Indian mosquitos or something). The females (who bite)are repelled by and avoid the males.

 

I got it at one of the Alpin Air stores. I think you can get the mouse repeller in most pet supply catalogues.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

http://www.kuruvinda.com/health/pests.shtml

 

"A dedicated article in Focus Magazine has proven what everybody already knew: Rats are very intelligent and highly adaptable to changing environments. On top of that they reproduce like anything and are very persevering. The only way to get rid of rats, besides killing them, is keeping the place cleaner than possible, protecting food supplies above military standard and using non-violent flap traps, or the bottle trap described under mice with a suitable and large enough bottle. The best bait for rats is Anise oil, which they simply cannot resist.

 

If a rat is caught, cover the trap with cloth and take it at least 3 miles away while turning the trap around now and then to confuse the animal. Besides their good sense of smell, rats have an extremely developed sense of location. Wash the trap thoroughly with water and soap before using it again, otherwise the other rats will detect the traces of physical agony left behind by the previous caught rat and they will not go for the trap anymore.

 

Especially do not underestimate the front teeth of rats. They make your can opener look insignificant. And no, a few inches of concrete or solid lead plates are no match at all. It's a question of time only. You might try fresh Mint. Some say it helps as good as against mice. Cats also help a lot, if the rats are not too big."