The sat guru and the transcendental sound

[anadi]

Please accept my humble obeisance, I knew you are a special person, and you must enjoy the association of elevated vaisnavas.

May your guru bestow His mercy also upon this dvipada pashu.

 

In Caitanya lila

1. The OBJECT OF LOVE is Brajendra Nadana Sri Krsna, but NOT MANIFESTED.

2. The CONTAINER OF LOVE is Brajendra Nandana Sri Krsna with the mood of Radhika and

His inner most desire is to meet

Brajendra Nandana Sri Krsna which is NOT MANIFESTED.

This is love in SEPARATION that He wanted to taste.

 

Maybe I am wrong and in Caitanya lila

the object of love is

not only Brajendra Nanda Sri Krsna but

Sri Caitanya Himself.

 

Maybe one unknown reason of His descend, was

to be loved in conjugal love in Gaura lila,

even if

the six Gosvamis never wrote about this.

 

It might be possible that they knew but

maybe His message (gaura vani) have been misunderstood by His empowered representatives, and especially Sri Rupa Gosvami should be a pretender, you know

sri caitanya mano bishtam...

 

or maybe I am unqualified, oh no, it is for sure that I am unqualified to understand this deeper siddhanta.

 

Maybe they wanted to conceal some of Caitanya s message.

 

You can still continue to give all the jiva s arguments from that article about gaura nagari.

 

I will be honoured to be a frosh in the lap of mother Gages, so that my heart will became somewhat soften, and I can realize something.

 

2.

all the SADHAKAS that come in Caitanya lila are in the mood of servitude.

That is what I meant when I said, that in Gaura lila, there is only the servitude mood.

Sorry for misunderstanding.

Your Objection

Can you give examples of people who are sadhakas in Gaura-lila?

 

Oh, sadhakas are not the nitya parikaras of the Lord.

They are sadhana bhaktas that came in Caitanya lila to develop further their bhajana, and eventually to be promovated in Krsna lila, and to

be born as gopis and learn the final moods.

Of course this would be for only a few.

 

Maybe it is wrong

Maybe they come to be in conjugal love with Sri Caitanya.

 

Maybe the nitya parikars teach these sadhakas how to love Sri Caitanya in parakya rasa or in svakya.

 

What is GAURA VANI?

Remember!

This is (was) the question.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Here is a message copied from another board:

 

<center>Greetings to all!

 

This 'pada' was written by the Rasik Mahapurusha, Sri Narahari Dasa Thakura, glorifying Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu.

 

"yadi gaurAnga nahi to, tabe ke hoito

kemone dharita de

rAdhAra mahimA, prema rasa sImA

jagate jAnAto ke ? " (1)

 

If Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu HAD NOT APPEARED,

then WHAT WOULD HAVE BECOME OF US ??

 

In this universe WHO WOULD HAVE EVER COME TO KNOW

the GLORIES OF SRIMATI RADHARANI and

the TOPMOST LIMIT OF PREMA RASA NECTAR?

 

"madhura vRndA vipina mAdhurI

praveza cAturI sAr

baraja yuvati bhAvera bhakati

zakati hoito kAr ? "

 

<font color="red">If Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu HAD NOT DESCENDED ON the EARTH AMONG US,

WHO COULD HAVE HAD the UNDERSTANDING and

YEARNING TO JOIN the SWEET MADHURYA RASA OF SRI RADHA-KRISHNA LILAS IN VRINDAVANA ?</font>

 

<font color="blue">WHO ELSE COULD HAVE GIVEN the POWERFUL BLESSING TO ENTER

the LOVING SENTIMENTS OF VRAJA GOPIKAS TO EVER ENGAGE IN

the INTIMATE SERVICE OF the DIVINE COUPLE?</font>

 

" gAO, punaH punaH, gaurAngera guNa

sarala hoiyA mana

ye bhAva sAgare emona doyAla

nA dekhiye yeka jana !" (3)

 

With a SIMPLE, PURE HEART SING WITH LOVE OVER and OVER AGAIN OF

SRI GAURANGA'S GLORIOUS GRACE and DIVINE ATTRIBUTES !!

 

NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN or HEARD OF SUCH A COMPASSIONATE PERSONALITY AS HE,

IN THE ENTIRE OCEAN OF WORLDLY EXISTENCE !!

 

"gaurAnga boliyA, na genu galiyA

kemone dhorinu de

narahari hiyA, pASANa diyA

kemone gaDiyAche ? " (4)

 

EVEN THOUGH I CHANT my BELOVED LORD GAURANGA'S NAME, VIRTUES and BLISSFUL EXPLOITS,

SOMEHOW my SINFUL HEART HAS NOT MELTED IN HIS GRACE!

HOW I DO CONTINUE TO MAINTAIN the BURDEN of this USELESS BODY !

 

HOW IS IT that the MERCIFUL LORD HAS CREATED the BODY OF (the Rasik Saint) NARAHARI,

GIVING A HARD STONE IN PLACE OF A HEART ???

 

<font color="red">All Glories to Sri Radhavatar,

Gauranga Mahaprabhu and

His Prana Priya Sakhi- Madhumati Devi !!!</font>

[raga]

 

Maybe one unknown reason of His descend, was

to be loved in conjugal love in Gaura lila,

even if

the six Gosvamis never wrote about this.

 

It might be possible that they knew but

maybe His message (gaura vani) have been misunderstood by His empowered representatives, and especially Sri Rupa Gosvami should be a pretender, you know

sri caitanya mano bishtam...

 

 

There is no misunderstanding or pretension. The Gosvamis preached as Mahaprabhu desired. This does not render other moods invalid, just that Sri Caitanya did not desire to establish them in the same way as He established manjari bhava upasana through the Gosvamis. There was also no particular mission for propagating priya narma sakha bhava, but nevertheless we find parivars in which sakha bhava upasana is present.

 

 

 

You can still continue to give all the jiva s arguments from that article about gaura nagari.

 

 

He really had very few arguments of his own, mainly he just presented another person's arguments, many of which were rather weak as was shown. This still does not exclude the bhava of Narahari, though, as there is little scope for interpretation with his writings as far as nagari bhava is concerned, they are plain obvious.

 

 

 

Your Objection

Can you give examples of people who are sadhakas in Gaura-lila?

 

Oh, sadhakas are not the nitya parikaras of the Lord.

They are sadhana bhaktas that came in Caitanya lila to develop further their bhajana, and eventually to be promovated in Krsna lila, and to

be born as gopis and learn the final moods.

Of course this would be for only a few.

 

 

Not an objection really. I was just curious if you could give a couple of examples, names of some sadhaka devotees who participated in Gaura lila.

 

[raga]

 

Maybe one unknown reason of His descend, was

to be loved in conjugal love in Gaura lila,

even if

the six Gosvamis never wrote about this.

 

 

The fact that some of his associates wrote about such a bhava does not mean it happened in reality. Feeling and reality are often different. While one may have desired something and meditated on it, it does not mean that the pastimes in one's aspiration actually happened in the physical realm. I do not agree with a proposal of Gaura's enjoying with Nadiya ladies during his prakata lila, nor is it a part of my bhajan in the aprakata lila where I am going. But who knows, for someone it may be. Who am I to judge this?

 

<font color=darkblue><center>yad-yad-dhiyA ta urugAya vibhAvayanti |

tat-tad-vapuH praNayase sad-anugrahAya ||</center>

"In whatever of His glorified manifestations the devotee meditates upon Him, in that very form He manifests unto them." (Bhagavata 3.9.11)</font>

 

Also:

 

<font color=darkblue><center>kAmAd dveSAd bhayAt snehAd yathA bhaktyezvare manaH |

Avezya tad-aghaM hitvA bahavas tad-gatiM gatAH ||</center>

"People who have absorbed their minds in the Lord either because of lust, hatred, fear, affection or devotion, have become free from sins and attained the goal of life." (Bhagavata 7.1.30)</font>

 

Thus with whatever motivation one approaches Him, it can only be auspicious in the ultimate. If devotees with strong inclination for sakhi-bhava (sambhogecchamayi) still see their beloved Shyamasundara in Sri Caitanya hidden under the golden complexion of Sri Radha, who can blame them for their ardent longing for loving exchanges with Him?

 

However, those of us aiming for bhavollasa are not concerned with cultivating such feelings. The point I am making is that it is unjust to judge others simply on account of their different inclination. Of course it is another matter if someone wishes to propose his way (whether Gaura nagari or anything else) as the ultimate, secret path meant for everyone. That I do not agree with.

[sha]

 

yad-yad-dhiyA ta urugAya vibhAvayanti |

tat-tad-vapuH praNayase sad-anugrahAya ||

 

"In whatever of His glorified manifestations the devotee meditates upon Him, in that very form He manifests unto them."

 

(Bhagavata 3.9.11)

 

Also:

 

kAmAd dveSAd bhayAt snehAd yathA bhaktyezvare manaH |

Avezya tad-aghaM hitvA bahavas tad-gatiM gatAH ||

 

"People who have absorbed their minds in the Lord either because of lust, hatred, fear, affection or devotion, have become free from sins and attained the goal of life."

 

(Bhagavata 7.1.30)

 

 

<big><font color="red">sei gopI-bhAvAmRte jAnra lobha haya |</big></font>

veda-dharma-loka tyaji se kRSNe bhajaya ||

vraja-lokera kona bhAva layA yei bhaje |

<font color="red"><big>bhAva-yogya deha pAiA kRSNe pAya vraje ||</font></big>

 

(C.C.2.8. 177-179)

 

<font color="red"><big>ataeva gopI-bhAva kari aGgIkAra |</font></big>

rAtri-dina cinte rAdhA-kRSNera vihAra ||

siddha-dehe cinti kare tAhAi sevana |

<font color="red"><big>sakhI-bhAve pAya rAdhA-kRSNera caraNa ||

gopI-anugati vinA </font></big>aizvarya-jJAne |

bhajileha nAhi pAya vrajendra-nandane ||

 

(C.C 2.8.183-185)

[raga]

<center><font face="Georgia" size=7 color=maroon>TRANSLATION!</font>

[sha]

 

yad-yad-dhiyA ta urugAya vibhAvayanti |

tat-tad-vapuH praNayase sad-anugrahAya ||

 

"In whatever of His glorified manifestations the devotee meditates upon Him, in that very form He manifests unto them." (Bhagavata 3.9.11)

 

Also:

 

kAmAd dveSAd bhayAt snehAd yathA bhaktyezvare manaH |

Avezya tad-aghaM hitvA bahavas tad-gatiM gatAH ||

 

"People who have absorbed their minds in the Lord either because of lust, hatred, fear, affection or devotion, have become free from sins and attained the goal of life." (Bhagavata 7.1.30)

 

 

 

<big><font color="red">yad bhAva-bhAvita dhiyo manujas tathaiva

samprApya rUpa-mahimAsana yAnabhUSAH</big></font>

 

sUktair yam eva nigama-prathitaiH stuvanti

govindam Adi-puruSaM tam ahaM bhajAmi

 

 

<big><font color="red">Ananda-cinmaya-rasAtmatayA manaHsu

yaH prANinAM pratiphalan smaratAm upetya</font>

 

<font color="blue">lIlAyitena bhuvanAni jayaty ajasraM</big></font>

govindam adi-puruSaM tam ahaM bhajAmi

[anadi]

Dear Raga

dandavat pranam

You said this

 

And by causeless kripa some of us got so much sukriti that we went flying through the Samiti, only to stop there for a brief moment, into higher association.

 

not to hurt my feelings.

But because you are sure that Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami

is not a pure devotee of the Lord, merged into the asta kalya lila of Sri Sri Radha Krsna,

or maybe He is not so pure as your Gurudeva,

or maybe not so advanced,

or maybe He is not merged 24 hours a day on the bank of Radha Kunda,

or maybe because He decided to preach outside of India,

you decided that the association with such a person ( in that Vedanta Samiti)

is not high enough,

and you stopped only for a brief moment there in His association,

did you have His association? Really?

Oh!

Maybe He cannot give wonderful sweet Hari kathas, and

His intimate disciples cannot get properly hari bhajana instructions,

or His advanced disciples don t weep always when they give hari kathas

 

Oh, maybe this is an offence against Srila Gurudeva and against the Samiti.

Oh, maybe Krsna doesn't tolerate offences against His pure devotees.

I don't know,

You know that

I don t know.

Many people spoke against Srila Gurudeva, out of different reasons.

Maybe you know different histories, on what happened with such people.

Sastra speak about the mad elephant, and bhakti lata.

 

into higher association?

What association is higher than that of a pure devotee of the Lord.

And what association is sweeter that the association of a pure devotee of

Brajendra Nandana Sri Krsna when Krsna serves Srimati Radhika?

 

Dandavat pranama

Dandavat pranama

Dandavat pranama

 

[raga]

 

you decided that the association with such a person ( in that Vedanta Samiti)

is not high enough,

and you stopped only for a brief moment there in His association,

did you have His association? Really?

Oh!

 

 

Yes, I was there for a year and a half or so. I was taking care of the Samiti's preaching in Finland along with my wife. I also spent a lot of time with BV Aranya serving him day and night during various festivals and Braj Mandal parikrama. In fact I enjoyed his (BVA's) association very much, aside some minor unpalatable incidents I witnessed.

 

Though I was not personally very close to BV Narayan, I did attend dozens of live lectures and heard hundreds upon hundreds of recorded lectures. I am the person who originally set up the websites gaudiya.net (currently at gaudiya.com/library) and narayanamaharaja.com.

 

To be honest, during my time there it seemed that the katha there was very profound. It was only after I received the association of some elevated rasik saints that I realized how there is much more to the path of raganuga bhajan than I could learn there.

 

 

 

Many people spoke against Srila Gurudeva, out of different reasons.

Maybe you know different histories, on what happened with such people.

Sastra speak about the mad elephant, and bhakti lata.

 

 

Some of them are doing pretty good, I know personally several people who left him and are very sincerely engaged in raganuga bhajan. I know, though, that a very different story is told to new people in the Samiti who ask about people who left. You may ask about the whereabouts of Atul Krishna Das and I am sure you will hear a very interesting story.

 

I left the Samiti not because of the level of katha there, but rather because I was very afraid after I saw a big mad elephant running around in the discourses of several senior devotees there, including BV Narayan himself.

 

If you are interested in the reasons of my departure from the Samiti, you may take the time and study the following:

~ REASON 1

 

~ REASON 2

 

~ REASON 3

 

They more or less sum up my concerns over the Samiti and its representatives.

[Guest guest]

Dear Raga,

 

I just looked through you pdf essays regarding BVNM.

 

Some points you have made I agree with, but I do see some errors.

 

If you get a chance, please email me at murali@mandala.com.au

[kailasa]

Narahari dasa Sarakara was a very famous devotee. Locana dasa Thakura, the celebrated author of Sri Caitanya mangala, was his disciple. In the Caitanya mangala it is stated that Sri Gadadhara dasa and Narahari dasa Sarakara were extremely dear to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, but there is no specific statement regarding the inhabitants of the village of Srikanta.

 

 

***4..

"the sakhis are not in madhurya rasa with Radha"

 

They in mathurya with Krisna.

 

***5.

"ergo all the sakhis (that became sakhas) cannot be in conjugal love (madhurya rasa)

with Krsna when He is in the MOOD of Radha."

 

1. Devotee Lord Caitanya in dasya for Him.

 

2. Is like Svarupa Damodara, Ramananda Ray.

 

I wrote about it.

 

***6.

and krsna came, with the purpose to be in the MOOD of Radha

 

Lord Caitanya is Radha Krisna eternally. Lord Caitanya is Radha eternally, Lord Caitanya is Krisna eternally. In Krisna lila He is Radha Krisna eternally. In Gaura lila He Lord Caitanya eternally. Krisna lila is Goloka, Gaura lila is Goloka. But gaura lila in spiritual sense above. No "MOOD Radha" it is Radha Itself. Lord Caitanya is Radha Krisna eternally.

 

For this purpose that you would understand is written that He "has accepted" mood Radha. He is Radha-Krisna ETERNALLY. Lord Caitanya is Supreme Lord. From the God expansion energy - Radha, for His pleasure.

 

"Again Lord Caitanya joined the two into one. Caitanyakhya&#1072; praka&#1094;am adhun&#1076;. That one means Krisna in the ecstasy of Radha. Sometimes Krisna is in ecstasy of Radha. Sometimes Radha is in ecstasy of Krisna. This is going on. But the whole thing is Radha and Krisna means the one, the Supreme."

 

7.

ergo the nadiya nagari bhava should be in the mood of servitude

but they pretend of being in madhurya rasa with

Caitanya Mahaprabhu (Krsna in the MOOD of Radha)

 

With Caitanya Mahaprabhu is not possible mathurya. I did not write about it

 

For you in third (!?) time - "service

 

of Radha and Krsna ( Radha and Krsna Radha and Krsna Radha

Hare Krisna Hare Krisna Hare Krisna Hare Krisna Hare Krisna )

 

in an intimate relationship with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu."

 

Is like Svarupa Damodara, Ramananda Ray.

 

Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Tastes Nectar from the Lips of Lord Sri Krisna.

 

It is sakhya?

 

They discussed sakhya?

 

O mine Lord....

 

in an intimate relationship with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu." - can rise on a level approached devotee the Lord Caitanya and in maximum sense such as Gosvamis, Ramananda Ray and Svarupa Damodara.

 

Everyone, who is under protection internal energy, are a level of the approached companions the Lord Caitanya, such as Ramananda Ray and

Svarupa Damodara.

 

Bhagavata devotee know svarupa Krisna lila, but work absolutely in the other mood ( vipralambha ). They do not work in sambhoga ( svarupa Krisna lila ).

 

*********

 

"When such devotees develop great attachment for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they too become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love.&#8221;"

 

In Gaura lila. VIPRALAMBHA in GAURA LILA. In Krisna lila they remain in they svarupa.

 

Srivasa Pandit in Krisna lila is sakhya eternal. In Gaura lila He in vipralambha madhurya eternal.

 

Gopi in Krisna lila is eternal madhurya. In Gaura lila they in eternal vipralambha madhurya.

 

It occurs simultaneously. ALL devotees develop great attachment for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they too become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love. ALL, any - sakhya, dasya, ALL.

 

This power Lord Caitanya. Devotee Lord Caitanya all in eternal vipralambha madhurya. Top spiritual sky is eternal vipralambha madhurya. There is nothing above vipralambha madhurya.

 

"O Govinda! Feeling Your separation, I am considering a moment to be like twelve years or more. Tears are flowing from my eyes like torrents of rain, and I am feeling all vacant in the world in Your absence."

 

This eternal mood. This spiritual mood. It ananda.

 

"I know no one but Krsna as my Lord, and He shall remain so even if He handles me roughly in His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, for He is always my worshipful Lord unconditionally."

 

Eternal vipralambha madhurya.

[kailasa]

**But I have no Kailasa nagari bhava. Sorry.

 

I am not nagari bhava it is you stay some in they mood. Sorry.

[kailasa]

**Jagat has already offered previously to help you. Why be angry at him now?

 

I am studi some. How long studi Jagat Prabhu in university, may be 3 month? Studi England needs time? or not?

[kailasa]

**Of course Gaura lila is eternal,

 

Yes, and Srila Rupa Gosvami eternal devotee Lord Sri Caitanya. Lord Caitanya sourse Krisna lila. Lord Caitanya expanse himself in Radha, and later His again "stay" as Lord Caitanya. It is higer aspect, then SP writes - " all sambhoga for neophits." Sastras Goswamis go in Gaura lila in high sense. Krisna lila it is sourse madhurya vipralambha for gaura lila.

[kailasa]

**1. The OBJECT OF LOVE is Brajendra Nadana Sri Krsna, but NOT MANIFESTED.

2. The CONTAINER OF LOVE is Brajendra Nandana Sri Krsna with the mood of Radhika and

His inner most desire is to meet

Brajendra Nandana Sri Krsna which is NOT MANIFESTED.

This is love in SEPARATION that He wanted to taste.

 

Yes, it is start for you for properly undrstanding.

[kailasa]

**If you get a chance, please email me at murali@mandala.com.au

 

If not difficult send me please Raga Prabhu. In me computers do not open this files.

 

ok65@yandex.ru

[anadi]

raga prabhu

accept my dandavat

Everything seems quite justified.

There is SOME evidence that really Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati took no diksa initiation from Srila Gaura kisóra dasa BABAJI.

That means the TRANSCENDENTAL SOUND of diksa wich descends through the paramapara and should be received by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati was interrupted.

and unfortunely more than that,

there is no doubt that he took no gopi mantra initiation

(he took sannyasa from a picture)

 

These facts should put the Gaudya Math out of parampara.

 

WHY?

Yo mantra sa guruh sakshat Yo guru sa harih svayam

Gurur yasya bhavet tushtas Tasya tushto harir svayam

 

The mantra is itself the guru The guru is directly svayam hari

He upon whom guru is pleased Also obtains the pleasure of svayam hari

 

What is the meaning? Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana says

The guru&#8217;s spiritual mood of service

THE INTERNAL MOOD OF SERVICE to Sri Radhika and Krsna

is conveyed to the disciple through the medium of MANTRA.

 

The internal mood of service is transcendental, why?

Because bhakti is a function of the svarupa shakti, not of the material senses.

And to convey the transcendental (bhakti) you need the transcendental carrier

which is the transcendental sound MANTRA,

which can be vibrated by the TRANSCENDENTAL person.

 

Who is the transcendental person?

The sad rasika guru,

The one that relishes rasa in his heart.

 

Everything is given in SEED from within the mantra.

 

Go to guru take the seed!

 

But if Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati took no diksa,

he had no seed to give, because the seed comes only through parampara,

through the transcendental sound.

Otherwise we need no parampara anymore.

 

Yes it should be like this for all the jivas.

But I also heard than when the guru comes directly from the spiritual world

Bhagavan gives him the seeds of seva vasana.

So if Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati is a manjari, as we are taught, and came with those seeds, in this special case

there is no need of parampara as channel of tr. Sound (which is related to nyamagraha)

and can be acknowledged that he belongs to that category of maha-bhagavatas

which could be included in the so called BHAGAVAT-PARAMPARA.

(ok not in the way is designed in the book under discussion)

 

Against it we can say that even Mahaprabhu took diksa,

and we could give even more arguments against, who cares.

 

Who attacked first?

The babaji or the gaudya math? Does make any difference?

Important is that you attained the level to be there, where I hope to be one day.

I love you more. Maybe I will meet you one day.

Now I am not qualified to meet you.

Your web-page is wonderful.

 

[raga]

Jai Radhe!

 

You are very right in your deep understanding of the importance of Vaishnava diksa. It is not a mere ritual as often portrayed.

 

We had a rather lengthy discussion about the subject matter of mantra-diksa, diksa-parampara and so forth a month ago or so. You may be curious to read the discussion as it contains many important references from the Gosvami granthas.

 

http://www.raganuga.com/cgi-bin/raga/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=4&t=277

 

Feel free to call me Madhava. "Raga" is an old relic from the time when I set up Raganuga Discussions, a test administrator account there, an id with which I once signed up here too.

[raga]

 

Who attacked first?

The babaji or the gaudya math? Does make any difference?

Important is that you attained the level to be there, where I hope to be one day.

 

 

Historically speaking I believe the main friction was actually between the Gosvami traditions (sometimes known as caste Gosvamis) and the Gaudiya Math. It eventually came to include more or less the rest of the entire classical Gaudiya tradition, among whom the renunciate class was known as Babajis. I do not know the exact origin of the Gaudiya Math vs. Babajis friction, though I am certain that the conflict between Pandit Ramakrishna Das Baba and Bhaktisiddhanta contributed to it as well as the Radha Kund incident of 1935. The radical approach of the Gaudiya Math created tension between them and just about anyone who wasn't among them and agreeing with their reforms.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

There is SOME evidence that really Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati took no diksa initiation from Srila Gaura kisóra dasa BABAJI.

 

 

This has already been discussed here:

 

http://www.indiadivine.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=2717&page=&view=&sb=&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

[raga]

That thread provides excellent examples of how to NOT discuss such topics.

[anadi]

**Of course Gaura lila is eternal,

And Kailasa Prabhu added

"Yes, and Srila Rupa Gosvami eternal devotee Lord Sri Caitanya. Lord Caitanya sourse Krisna lila. Lord Caitanya expanse himself in Radha, and later His again "stay" as Lord Caitanya. It is higer aspect, then SP writes - " all sambhoga for neophits." Sastras Goswamis go in Gaura lila in high sense. Krisna lila it is sourse madhurya vipralambha for gaura lila."

 

Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada writes in the begining of Chapter 4 Adi lila

 

The Confidential Reasons for Lord Caitanya's Appearance

 

In this chapter of the epic Caitanya-caritamrta, Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami has stressed that Lord Caitanya appeared for three principal purposes of His own.

The first purpose was to relish the position of Srimati Radharani,

who is the prime reciprocator of transcendental love of Sri Krsna.

Lord Krsna IS THE RESERVOIR of transcendental loving transactions with Srimati Radharani. The subject of those loving transactions is the Lord Himself, and Radharani is the object.

Thus the subject, the Lord, wanted to relish the loving mellow in the position of the object, Radharani.

The second reason for His appearance was to understand the transcendental mellow of Himself.

Lord Krsna is all sweetness. Radharani's attraction for Krsna is sublime, and to experience that attraction and understand the transcendental sweetness of Himself, He accepted the mentality of Radharani.

The third reason that Lord Caitanya appeared was to enjoy the bliss tasted by Radharani. The Lord thought that undoubtedly Radharani enjoyed His company and He enjoyed the company of Radharani, but the exchange of transcendental mellow between the spiritual couple was more pleasing to Srimati Radharani than to Sri Krsna. Radharani felt more transcendental pleasure in the company of Krsna than He could understand without taking Her position, but for Sri Krsna to enjoy in the position of Srimati Radharani was impossible because that position was completely foreign to Him. Krsna is the transcendental male, and Radharani is the transcendental female. Therefore, to know the transcendental pleasure of loving Krsna, Lord Krsna Himself appeared as Lord Caitanya, accepting the emotions and bodily luster of Srimati Radharani.

Lord Caitanya appeared to fulfill these confidential desires and also to preach the special significance of chanting Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, and to answer the call of Advaita Prabhu. These were secondary reasons.

Sri Svarupa Damodara Gosvami was the principal figure among Lord Caitanya's confidential devotees. The records of his diary have revealed these confidential purposes of the Lord. These revelations have been confirmed by the statements of Srila Rupa Gosvami in his various prayers and poems.

This chapter also specifically describes the difference between lust and love. The transactions of Krsna and Radha are completely different from material lust. Therefore the author has very clearly distinguished between them.

 

 

I hope this is what you meant.

but the next one is quite new for me

 

Lord Caitanya expanse himself in Radha and later His again "stay" as Lord Caitanya.

 

Would you like to read something about the gayatri mantra

at

http://sudhirgoswami.com/2%7ebooks.html

 

That might help to understand better the meaning of gaura vani, even I still doubt it.

 

[Guest guest]

In reply to:

--

 

There is SOME evidence that really Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati took no diksa initiation from Srila Gaura kisóra dasa BABAJI.

<hr>

 

This false story that Prabhupad Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami did not receive the sound of the sacred Name of Sri Hari from Srila Gaurkishore Babaji Maharaj...

 

When will people see that this is untrue.

 

I would suggest that thoughtful devotees might read the following...

 

On the web site of Nitai das he tells a story that

Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami didn't receive

direct, personal initiation from Srila Gaurakishore Babaji. That

story really is false. Indeed, there is substantial evidence to prove the

fact that Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami was a direct, authorised, initiated disciple of Srila Gaurakishore Babaji.

 

There may not be any photos. But does anyone have any photos to

prove that Syamananda Prabhu didn't simply make up that story ....

 

The most significant point I would make is that Saraswati Thakur's brother

Lalit Prashad, who in later years became a critic of Saraswati Thakur,

was quite closely associated with Saraswati Thakur and his disciples

until 1918. That is, until the time when Saraswati Thakur took sannyasa.

Surely Lalit Prashad, who is affiliated with the "babaji group",

would have raised a loud objection if he knew, as he surely would have

known, that Saraswati Thakur was lying when he said he was a

disciple of Babaji Maharaj.

 

In about 1887 Bhaktivinod Thakur discovered the birthplace of Mahaprabhu

in Mayapur. Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji was taken to Mayapur and

he said or agreed that it was the birthplace of Mahaprabhu. At that time

Bhaktivinod Thakur stayed in Surabhi Kunj at Godrumadwip. From that time,

all the problems arose with Bipin Bihari Goswami (Bipin Bihari Goswami was

the diksa guru of Thakur Bhaktivinode; Lalit Prashad and his disciples see

Bipin Bihari Goswami as a Guru in their parampara). But our Saraswati Thakur

rejected Bipin Bihari Goswami, partly because Bipin Bihari didn't accept

Mayapur as the real birthplace of Mahaprabhu. (The document of Bipin Bihari

expressing his view that Mayapura is not Mahaprabhu's birthplace is kept at

Bagh Bazaar Math in Calcutta). This was a major point of difference which caused

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur to turn more to Jagannatha dasa Babaji

for inspiration in his later years. He certainly turned away from Bipin Bihari Goswami because of his views about Mayapur, and other issues.

 

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur went to Puri around 1900. At that time in Puri, Srila

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati was involved in a conflict with some persons

- the issues of "Nitai Gaura Radhe Shyama" kirtan and sakhi dress

were key issues. Wanting to calm down the conflict, Srila Bhaktivinode

Thakur advised Bimala Prashad (Srila Sarasvati Thakur) to go to

Mayapura where he rendered worship at the Yoga Pitha. The importance of this

shrine in Mayapur to Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura should not be underestimated.

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur placed Srila Saraswati Thakur in service at Mayapura;

that place of Mayapura was the place of bhajan given to

our Saraswati Thakur Prabhupad by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura.

 

Srila Gaurakisore Babaji initiated Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati in 1900.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati took a vow to chant the Name constantly and lived in Mayapur.

 

In 1905 Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati initiated his first disciple, then he initiated two or three others not long afterwards.

 

Srila Gaurakisore Babaji lived in Mayapur region until he left this world in 1914.

 

People in the local area, such as Sarasvati Thakur's brother Lalit

Prashad, certainly would have heard that Sarasvati Thakur was saying

Srila Gaurakisore Babaji was his Guru. Certainly the boys who became

Sarasvati Thakur's disciples would have heard this from him. It

is inconceivable that Lalit Prashad would not have heard Sarasvati

Thakur saying this. Sarasvati Thakur's disciples would have heard

it too, in the years between 1900 and 1914.

 

Indeed let us suppose that Srila Gaurakisore Babaji did not initiate Srila Saraswati Thakur. Surely Srila Gaurakisore Babaji himself would have heard that Srila Saraswati Thakur was claiming to be his disciple too, since Srila Saraswati Thakur was also living

nearby for many years. But there is no evidence that anyonoe ever made a claim that Srila Saraswati Thakur was not a disciple of Babaji Maharaj in those years. And in those years Srila Saraswati Thakur was initiating disciples. Were those boys who were initiated, and who were told by Srila Saraswati Thakur "I am a disciple of Gaurkishore Babaji Maharaj" so foolish that they were deceived in this way.

 

Was Srila Saraswati Thakur creating a hoax and claiming to be the disciple of Babaji Maharaj, who was living just nearby. What a dangerous game he would have been playing. The anti-party's "no initiation" theory amounts to the proposal that for fourteen years (from 1900 to 1914, when Srila Babaji Maharaj passed away) Srila Saraswati Thakur deceived people by saying he was a disciple of the Babaji, when in fact he wasn't. Just imagine it. Mayapur is not a big place. And he is claiming he is a disciple of a Babaji who from time to time lives in that small place. We know for a fact that Lalit Prashad didn't break contact with Sarasvati Thakur until after 1918, and surely he would have heard that Srila Saraswati Thakur said he was a disciple of Srila Babaji Maharaj. Surely Lalit Prashad would have gone and asked Babaji Maharaj if Srila Saraswati Thakur was his disciple, if he had any doubts.

 

There is no evidence whatsoever that Lalit Prashad himself ever

said that Sarasvati Thakur was not a disciple of Srila Gaurakisore Babaji.

 

The people who claim that Saraswati Thakur said he was "initiated

in a dream" live in Vrindaban, which is far, far away from Bengal.

They say Srila Saraswati Thakur told them he was "initiated in a

dream" when Srila Saraswati Thakur visited Vrindaban.

 

But if devotees in Nabadwip had never heard that Saraswati Thakur

claimed he was a disciple of Srila Gaurakisore Babaji, then how

is it that Saraswati Thakur was able to take the body of Srila Gaurakisore

Babaji and make his samadhi? Other persons, babajis, were wanting

to make that samadhi. Many witnesses were there at the time of the

samadhi of Srila Gaurakisore Babaji. The police officer decided

that Saraswati Thakur should be able to make the samadhi -- Saraswati

Thakur made a successful claim that he was a disciple of Srila Gaurakisore

Babaji -- and not one of Srila Saraswati Thakur's opponents gathered

there at that place could disprove it.

 

The story that Saraswati Thakur said he was "initiated in a dream"

is nothing but hearsay. In fact it is a malicious lie. It should never be accepted as a fact.

 

Look at the facts, such as the fact that Srila Saraswati Thakur had to argue and assert that he is a disciple at the time of the samadhi of Gaurkishore Babaji Maharaj. If there were any strong claims to prove he was not a disciple then surely they would have been made at that time. Saraswati Thakur and his followers who were there, such as Bhakti Vilas Tirtha Maharaj (Kunja Babu, at that time), were demanding that they receive the divine form of Gaurkishore Babaji Maharaj so they could make his samadhi, and the forcefulness of their demand was not to be resisted.

 

My Guru Maharaj has written many prayers to Srila Saraswati Thakur, and in one line he speaks of Srila Saraswati Thakur as a Guru with a voice of a lion. This is our Guru, and men of weaker intellect could never defeat him, even when they threw bricks at his head to try and kill him in Nabadwip. If people think they will be able to make the followers of Srila Saraswati Thakur lose faith in him with silly "no initiation" stories then they should realize that they will never cause us to lose faith in our Divine Master. Never. Never.

 

Let me say something more to the opponents of Srila Saraswati Thakura and his sampradaya. Did you know that our President Acharya of Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math, our Srila B. S. Govinda Maharaj, is the son of a Guru in the Nityananda Parivar. By birth, our Govinda Maharaj was destined to be Guru in the line of Jahnava Mata, as his father, and father's father had been before him. But our Srila Govinda Maharaj has come to the school of Srila Saraswati Thakur to learn about Prema Bhakti, and now he is teaching us what he has learned at the school of Srila Saraswati Thakur. And the things he knew from his family Nityananda Parivar culture, and from his uncles, that is beautiful, and honoured, and adorable. But... the connection to Guru Parampara of our Srila Govinda Maharaj is throuh Srila Sridhar Maharaj and through Om Vishnupad, Paramahamsa Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur.

 

Anyhow, there may be minor discrepancies in some dates I've mentioned. I

don't have the exact dates with me here, but they are all listed in the book

Prabhupad Srila Saraswati Thakur by Sri B. K. Sraman Maharaj of Chaitanya Math in Mayapur. Sripad Narasingha Maharaj has also published a book of the same name, but Sraman Maharaj's book is the reference I would trust most fully. It is very detailed.

 

May I suggest that if followers of other lineages want to debate some philosophical issues with devotees of our Gaura-Saraswat Sampradaya then they should avoid aparadha and not spread this evil story that our Srila Saraswati Thakur was not properly initiated. If you believe this evil story, they you are like those innocent boys who were were so foolhardy in their naive Krishna-conception that they thought they could walk into the mouth of a serpent named Agha and not be killed. But if you believe this lie of a story, it will kill you. And when you are dead will you wake again, and find yourself in the land of divine pastimes. I doubt it. If you preach this "Saraswati was initiated in a dream" story, you will not find happiness in this life or the next.

 

Perhaps my anger shows through in my words. Well, it is hard for me to hide it.

 

Murali

 

[anadi]

Dear Guest,

accept my danadavat

It seems quite logic.

And the world has its order again. At least my world.

And my simpathy for Madhava Prabhu remains unbroken.

 

What is your opinion about the IMPORTANCE of the transcendetal sound of gopi mantra given from the sad guru to the elevated disciple by the babaji or sannyasa initiation?

Can you give a sastric sustainance of your Opinion?

 

And in this connection aply it please to Prabhupada Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami, this mantra is sure that he didn t receive it from Srila Gaurakishore Babaji.

 

I do NOT intend to be offensive but I want to understand this very important point.

 

My second question is:

 

What should be the qualification of the one that GIVE

the transcendental sound of hari-nama, diksa and gopi mantra.

 

Many people say that it is not important that they received sannyasa mantra from a guru who falled down because they received it in the name of Srila Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta Swami?

Acording to the Principle of Transcendental Sound this is no proper initiation, is like a recongnition of their own guru disqualification, with the excuse

but our param-guru oder param-param guru was a sad guru.

 

And the ones that were given sannyasa in this way

made and continue to make disciples

pretending to give the transcendental sound of harinama and

diksa.

 

Here it seems to be a interruption in the paramapara.

Are this initiations according to the principle below

 

Yo mantra sa guruh sakshat Yo guru sa harih svayam

Gurur yasya bhavet tushtas Tasya tushto harir svayam

 

The mantra is itself the guru The guru is directly svayam hari

He upon whom guru is pleased Also obtains the pleasure of svayam hari

 

What is the meaning? The guru s spiritual mood of service

THE INTERNAL MOOD OF SERVICE to Sri Radhika and Krsna

is conveyed to the disciple through the medium of MANTRA.

 

The internal mood of service is transcendental, why?

Because bhakti is a function of the svarupa shakti, not of the material senses.

And to convey the transcendental (bhakti) you need the transcendental carrier

which is the transcendental sound MANTRA,

which can be vibrated by the TRANSCENDENTAL person.

 

Who is the transcendental person?

The sad rasika guru, the one that relishes rasa in his heart.

Everything is given in SEED from within the mantra.

Go to guru take the seed!

 

 

 

 

[raga]

Murali,

 

I was just about to reply to the private letter you sent me, but since you posted it here, let me comment on its contents in here.

 

 

 

This false story that Prabhupad Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami did not receive the sound of the sacred Name of Sri Hari from Srila Gaurkishore Babaji Maharaj...

 

 

There is no controversy over his receiving the name of Hari. The controversy is over whether he received diksa-mantras from Gaura Kishora or not.

 

 

 

On the web site of Nitai das he tells a story that

Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami didn't receive

direct, personal initiation from Srila Gaurakishore Babaji. That

story really is false.

 

 

Nitai das is not the only person from whom I've heard this account. It is a common bit of history among the Vaishnavas of Vraja who were involved with Pandit Ramakrishna Das Baba, Advaita Das Baba and others present on the occasion.

 

 

 

Indeed, there is substantial evidence to prove the

fact that Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami was a direct, authorised, initiated disciple of Srila Gaurakishore Babaji.

 

 

It would be great if you presented this substantial evidence. I have often heard the claim, but as of today, I have not seen the evidence. In your post I saw two statements which could be interpreted as evidence:

 

1. Lalita Prasad did not disagree on this. Not true, as presented later on in my post.

 

2. Bhaktisiddhanta placed Gaurakisora in samadhi. This does not mean he received diksa-mantras from him. He was a disciple, that we all know. The question is whether he was a diksa-disciple or not.

 

In fact, could you present any one statement of Bhaktisiddhanta's where he states that he received diksa-mantras from Gaura Kisora?

 

 

 

The most significant point I would make is that Saraswati Thakur's brother Lalit Prashad, who in later years became a critic of Saraswati Thakur,

was quite closely associated with Saraswati Thakur and his disciples

until 1918.

 

...

 

We know for a fact that Lalit Prashad didn't break contact with Sarasvati Thakur until after 1918, and surely he would have heard that Srila Saraswati Thakur said he was a disciple of Srila Babaji Maharaj. Surely Lalit Prashad would have gone and asked Babaji Maharaj if Srila Saraswati Thakur was his disciple, if he had any doubts.

 

 

Lalita Prasad Thakura left no uncertainty over the subject matter when he was asked about it. His answer was a simple "no". I know several people who heard this from him. He cooperated with Bhaktisiddhanta for the sake of Bhaktivinoda's mission despite the disagreements, until finally he broke off when he felt that Bhaktisiddhanta's innovations had become unacceptable.

 

 

 

Srila Gaurakisore Babaji initiated Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati in 1900.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati took a vow to chant the Name constantly and lived in Mayapur.

 

In 1905 Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati initiated his first disciple, then he initiated two or three others not long afterwards.

 

 

In 1905 Bhaktisiddhanta went into seclusion to chant the holy names. He did not initiate people there.

 

Can you give me the names of those disciples and the years of their initiation? As far as I am aware of, the first initiations he gave took place in 1918. Ananta Vasudeva Paravidyaratna, Haripada Vidyaratna and Dhirendra Natha Bandopadhayaya were initiated in 1918. Bhaktiprajnana Kesava and Bhaktikevala Audulomi received diksa in 1919. Perhaps you can refer me to anyone who received diksa prior to that?

 

 

 

The story that Saraswati Thakur said he was "initiated in a dream"

is nothing but hearsay. In fact it is a malicious lie. It should never be accepted as a fact.

 

 

Are you in fact saying that Pandit Ramakrishna Das Baba, one of the most widely respected Vaishnava acaryas of his time, is a liar? Or are you proposing that others who were present on the occasion are liars? Or who is lying in your opinion?

 

 

 

Let me say something more to the opponents of Srila Saraswati Thakura and his sampradaya.

 

 

It is very amusing that people who present reasonable questions are rather quickly labeled as opponents.

 

Aside this, instead of presenting tangible evidence, scare-tactics are employed:

 

 

But if you believe this lie of a story, it will kill you. And when you are dead will you wake again, and find yourself in the land of divine pastimes. I doubt it. If you preach this "Saraswati was initiated in a dream" story, you will not find happiness in this life or the next.

 

 

That in and of itself is very descriptive of the situation.

 

 

 

Perhaps my anger shows through in my words. Well, it is hard for me to hide it.

 

 

Please do not be angry. You must understand that I am not exploring the subject matter with ill intent. I am also not approaching the subject matter from the angle of vision of one who is fanatically convinced. I am looking for facts, and have no problem recognizing them as such when I face something credible.