The sat guru and the transcendental sound

[theist]

Are those who are initiated into the Nityananda Parivar sure that everyone in that line attained full realization of the mantra?

 

If one along the line wasn't, then wouldn't that be the end of the line, as the sound transmitted would not have been transcendental, and therefore all subsequent initiations would be of a lessor quality?

 

If that is so, is it possible to reestablish the line?If so, how?Through the reenergizing of the line by the appearance of a Mahabhagavat,or some other way.

 

If by a Mahabhagavat then where did he get the potency to do so?From the inner side?

 

Another question if I may.Suppose one received the mantra from a realized soul and thus received pure spiritual vibration,does he have to wait until he is fully realized himself before initiating anyone?Otherwise wouldn't he be passing on something less than the real mantra?

 

Would there then be a difference in the initiations he gave before his achieving full realization as opposed to those that came after?

 

If so does that mean that his early disciples can never reach full realization themselves due to the guru's immature status at the time of their receiving diksa?

 

And if so, what of those that they initiate?

 

Just wondering.

[raga]

 

What is your opinion about the IMPORTANCE of the transcendetal sound of gopi mantra given from the sad guru to the elevated disciple by the babaji or sannyasa initiation?

Can you give a sastric sustainance of your Opinion?

 

 

The gopi-bhava mantra is there only in the Gaudiya Math. Outside the Gaudiya Math there is no mantra to accompany the giving of babaji vesa, at least not in the traditions I am acquainted with (Nityananda Parivar, Advaita Parivar, Narottama Parivar). I wonder where that ... gopibhavAzrayAya ... mantra comes from.

[raga]

 

Are those who are initiated into the Nityananda Parivar sure that everyone in that line attained full realization of the mantra?

 

 

How can there be certainty over things you cannot see or reason about? It is a matter of faith.

 

 

 

If one along the line wasn't, then wouldn't that be the end of the line, as the sound transmitted would not have been transcendental, and therefore all subsequent initiations would be of a lessor quality?

 

 

Guru-tattva manifests in two features: samasti-guru (Krishna as the aggregate guru) and vyasti-guru (localized guru, the sadhu we meet). Thus the dynamics of guru-tattva do not entirely rely on the localized guru we meet. The aggregate guru works through the localized guru, and whatever the localized guru lacks, the aggregate guru will provide either through the localized guru without his knowing it or directly to the heart of the sincere disciple. And on the other hand, if there is no sicerety in you, it does not make any tangible difference for you whether your guru is a maha-maha bhagavat or not.

 

 

 

Suppose one received the mantra from a realized soul and thus received pure spiritual vibration,does he have to wait until he is fully realized himself before initiating anyone?Otherwise wouldn't he be passing on something less than the real mantra?

 

 

Please refer to the answer above.

 

Sometimes devotees get into this "only from maha-maha bhagavat" preaching. Unfortunately it is very hard to recognize a maha-maha bhagavat. The external symptoms of bhavankura (sprout of bhava) are described in the kSAntir avyartha kAlatvaM verse, so it is a good idea to observe whether such symptoms are seen in the guru or not. Aside this, there is litte you can do to verify the inner depth of realization aside asking questions and listening to the guru.

 

And let me add that everyone wants to see such qualities in his guru even if they do not objectively exist there. For the faithful person those qualities become real. He is interacting with the vyasti-guru, a localized manifestation of the samasti-guru. Others may interact with a sadhu who has several defects. It is a matter of faith. Therefore one should find a guru in whom he has faith. For inquisitive persons it is important to clarify any controversies and misunderstandings prior to taking shelter of the sadhu to avoid the calamity of losing faith in him. Such loss of faith brings about the devastation of the relationship. However, if there is indeed ample causes for the loss of faith, there are circumstances when the disciple may reject the unqualified diksa-guru. This is delineated in the Bhakti Sandarbha.

[raga]

Two things I noticed I didn't comment on in Murali's text.

 

 

Surely Lalit Prashad, who is affiliated with the "babaji group"...

 

 

Lalita Prasad Thakura is not nor ever was affiliated with any individual babajis or any group of babajis. If he was, please let me know which babajis he was affiliated with.

 

 

 

In about 1887 Bhaktivinod Thakur discovered the birthplace of Mahaprabhu

in Mayapur. Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji was taken to Mayapur and

he said or agreed that it was the birthplace of Mahaprabhu. At that time

Bhaktivinod Thakur stayed in Surabhi Kunj at Godrumadwip. From that time,

all the problems arose with Bipin Bihari Goswami (Bipin Bihari Goswami was

the diksa guru of Thakur Bhaktivinode; Lalit Prashad and his disciples see

Bipin Bihari Goswami as a Guru in their parampara). But our Saraswati Thakur

rejected Bipin Bihari Goswami, partly because Bipin Bihari didn't accept

Mayapur as the real birthplace of Mahaprabhu. (The document of Bipin Bihari

expressing his view that Mayapura is not Mahaprabhu's birthplace is kept at

Bagh Bazaar Math in Calcutta). This was a major point of difference which caused

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur to turn more to Jagannatha dasa Babaji

for inspiration in his later years. He certainly turned away from Bipin Bihari Goswami because of his views about Mayapur, and other issues.

 

 

The passage above contains several historical errors.

 

There is no evidence to prove that Vipina Vihari Gosvami was opposed to Bhaktivinoda's presentation of Mahaprabhu's birthplace during Bhaktivinoda's presence. In fact, Vipina Vihari was one of the first directors of the committee to oversee Mahaprabhu's worship in the newly founded Yogapitha. This took place in 1891.

 

There is no evidence to show that Bhaktivinoda would have rejected or become distanced from Vipina Vihari. Throughout his writings we find him praise Vipina Vihari as his revered guru: In Gitamala (1893), in Amrita Pravaha Bhasya (1895), in Svalikhita Jivani (1896) and in Bhagavat Arka Marici Mala (1901).

 

It is a fact, though, that there was controversy five years after the disappearance of Bhaktivinoda (in 1919) which led Vipina Vihari to reject the new Yogapitha. Many take it that this was because of the fierce propaganda made by Bhaktisiddhanta and his followers against the rest of the tradition, as the new Yogapitha had by then come under the control of Bhaktisiddhanta.

 

There is a very informative article concerning the relationship between Bhaktivinoda and Vipina Vihari Gosvami compiled by Jagadananda Das. You can read it at http://www.granthamandira.org/~jagat/articles/showarticle.php?id=14 .

[theist]

Thank you raga.You have given specific confirmations of what I felt was true,but perceived only in a very vague and untangible way.

 

After considering your answers I may be back with another question or two.

 

I also hope to hear from others,if they have the time and the inclination,especially Murali prabhu.

 

Hare Krsna,

P-nut

[muralidhar]

 

There are so many issues that could be discussed, in regard to this whole subject.

 

In order to avoid getting into ground that has marginal significance in regard to the main issue under discussion in this subject, I think it is best if I simply present a few facts that I can immediatly provide references for, and also provide responses to some of responses by Madhava Prabhu and others to what I have already said. Madhava, there are a number of historical and other issues you have raised, maybe you have the right dates, or maybe you are wrong. But the central issue, I believe, is the one I will deal with now. Other issues can be discussed at another time, or brought up later in this thread if you like, but the central issue it seems to me is what "initiation" is, or what the word "initiation" means.

 

In regard to the "Guru Parampara of Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami", I will first of all present the direct quotes of Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Maharaj, from whom I received Harinama and Gayatri Diksa.

 

In Sri Guru and His Grace, Chapter Nine, Srila Sridhar Maharaj says:

<blockquote>

<hr>

"Jiva Goswami has written that the name of Krsna is the principle thing in the gayatri mantra. Within the mantra, there are also so many other words, but the name is the most important. If the name of Krsna is taken away, and replaced with some other name, the whole thing will be rotten. This is the decision of Jiva Goswami. The holy name of Krsna is all in all. The holy name of Krsna is there in the gayatri mantra, and so many other words are couched there. But if Krsna's name is taken away and replaced with the name of Siva, then the whole thing will go to Siva. The holy name is the all-important factor.

The holy name of Krsna is so important that even the gayatri mantra may not be necessary. It is said: na ca sat kriya, na dikse na ca purascarya manadilate mantrayam rasana spri hanato sri krsna namatmaka: "One need not undergo all the purificatory processes, or follow the six ritualistic ceremonies mentioned in the Vedas for pious life; one need not even take initiation into the gayatri mantra. If one simply chants the holy name of Krsna without offense, everything will be successful." The holy name of Krsna is the most important consideration. The gayatri mantra may not even be necessary.

We accept the mantra only to help the nama-bhajana, the worship of the holy name. Otherwise, it may not be necessary at all. It has been judged in such a way. The name alone can do everything for a person. It is full and complete. The mantra helps us to do away with the aparadhas, offenses, and the abhasa, or hazy conceptions in our bhajana. The mantra comes to help us only so far.

An example is given of larger and smaller circles. The holy name of Krsna is the larger circle. It extends from the highest to the lowest. The mantra circle is a smaller circle within the larger circle. The mantra cannot reach to the lowest point. The holy name can extend itself down to the lowest position. The mantra gives us entrance into liberation, and then the name carries us further. This is the nature of our connection with the mantra and the name."

<hr>

</blockquote>

 

Further to this, I suggest devotees read again the entire chapter of Chaitanya Charitamrta, Antya-lila Chapter 3, where Srila Haridas Thakur describes the glory of the Holy Name of Sri Krishna.

 

There is one part of that chapter I would especially like to draw attention to, that is, the section where describing how Srila Haridas Thakur changed the prostitute lady into a great devotee. When she became a surrendered soul and gave up her prostitution mentality, Haridas Thakur instructed her

<blockquote>

nirantara nama lao, kara tulasi sevana

acirat pabe tabe krsnera carana

(chant Hari Nama constantly, worship Tulasi, and soon you will attain the lotus feet of Krishna) - verse 137

</blockquote>

The Srila Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami says

<blockquote>

tulasi sevana kare, carvana, upavasa,

indriya-damana haila, premera prakasa

(She worshipped Tulasi, she fasted and ate very little. She controlled her senses and began to exhibit symptoms of Krishna Prema)

<blockquote>

To quote Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhpada's translation,

<blockquote>

"Thus the prostitute became a celebrated devotee. She became very advanced in spiritual life, and many stalwart Vaishnavas would come to see her"

</blockquote>

 

The point is, that this lady developed Krishna Prema after receiving Harinama from Srila Haridas Thakur. According to Chaitanya Charitamrta, these events happened in Benopala in Bangladesh when Srila Haridas Thakur was a young man. These events happened before Srila Haridas Thakur went to live near Shantipura, where he met Sri Advaita Acharya and the other devotees in that region.

 

Now, according to Madhava (Raga),

<hr>

<blockquote>

...the Prema-vilasa (chapter 24) declares:

advaita prabhur pade loila sarana

tar thai bhakti sastre koilo adhyayana

advaitera sthane tinho hoila diksiti

tin lakho harinama jape diva rati

lakho harinama mane lakho kane sune

lakho nama ucca kori kore sankirtane'

“Haridasa took shelter of Advaita Prabhu’s lotus feet and studied the bhakti

sastras under Him. He became initiated by Advaita (diksita) and was

chanting three lakhs of harinama day and night. One lakh was in the mind,

one softly and one loudly.”

Moreover, the Advaita Prakasa describes:

“After instructing Haridasa in this way, Advaita had him shave

his head and decorate his body with tilaka and tulasi beads.

Advaita had Haridasa dress in kaupina and outer cloth, and then

He initiated him in chanting the holy names. Haridasa then

began chanting the holy names in a cave on the bank of Ganges.

As he became intoxicated with love of God, he became known as

the crest jewel amongst the Vaisnavas. Coming to his external

consciousness, Haridasa offered his obeisances to Advaita, who

blessed him by saying, ‘May you attain Krishna. Your name is

Brahma Haridasa.’”

In the reference from Advaita Prakasa, there is no mention of diksa, but

nevertheless the giving of sampradayika-tilaka and kanthi-mala – items

associated with the ceremony of diksa in the Hari Bhakti Vilasa – are

present. nama dila prabhu shakti sancariya – giving the Name to him,

Advaita Prabhu empowered him.

</blockquote>

<hr>

 

My understanding is that Haridas Thakur that did not receive formal initiation. But even if he was initiated by Sri Advaita Acharya, that initiation would have happend AFTER HARIDAS INITIATED THE PROSTITUTE LADY.

 

The Harinama initiation given by Srila Haridas Thakur is described in CC by Kaviraj Goswami, and Kaviraj Goswami goes so far as to say that the lady attained Krishna Prema.

 

The point I wish to make is this:

Whether a devotee receives formal initiation with mantra (klim krishnaya govindaya gopijanaballabhaya swaha), etc..., or whether they receive simply the name of Hari from Sri Guru, (Hare Krishna, or whatever), the real and substantial thing that must be communicated from Guru to disciple is the transcendental sound, or to take it one step further, the Divine Grace of Sri Guru. If Sri Guru accepts a disciple, that is ALL IN ALL. Look in the Bhagavatam for all the examples of Guru / disciple relationship that have been explained in this way. There are so many examples.

<hr>

<blockquote>

And Bhagavatam even states:

1.2.3

Let me offer obeisances to Sukadev Goswami who went away from home and accepted the renounced order of life, even without undergoing the initiation ceremony from Vyasa, his father. Vyasadev, feeling separation cried out, "Oh my son!", but only the trees responded to him with the echo of the voice of Sukadev's aggrieved father."

</blockquote>

<hr>

 

Now having said this, let me say that in regard to Srila Saraswati Thakur's initiation from Srila Gaurkishore Das Babaji Maharaj, it is just a waste of time arguing about exactly what was said at the time Srila Gaurkishore Das Babaji Maharaj accepted Srila Saraswati Thakur. The substantial thing at the time of Diksa is that the Guru gives the disciple His Divine Grace. The name of Hari will be spoken to the disciple, certainly, since the divine master is always chanting the Name and glorifying the Name. But the exact nature of the ritual of initiation may vary from time to time, and from place to place. There is no doubt that Srila Kaviraj Goswami accepted Haridas Thakur's initiation of the prostitute lady as a genuine initiation. Certainly Mahaprabhu himself also accepted that Haridas Thakur was able to give the Suddha-nama to others. Indeed, in CC Antya-lila Chapter 3, Mahaprabhu begins by asking Srila Haridas Thakur how the "yavanas" can be delivered:

 

<hr>

<blockquote>

Mahaprabhu says:

How will these yavanas be delivered? To my great unhappiness, I do not see any way.

</blockquote>

<hr>

 

Srila Haridas Thakura gives the method for deliverance of (us) yavanas. We western born persons. His answer is loud sankirtan.

 

Now in recent times some persons have started promoting the view that everyone should aspire to attain raganuga-bhajan. People can say this, but in our Chaitanya Saraswat Math we have a different idea.

 

<hr>

<blockquote>

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj:

Nirjjana-bhajan or smarana, exclusive solitary Devotion unconscious of the environment, is not at all possible for the beginners. Guru Maharaj (Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami) clearly said that when we are in a lower position, smarana is injurious. Rather, we should take to kirttana. Kirttana prabhave, smarane haibe, se kale bhajana nirjjana sambhava. The Sahajiya school (imitationists) are more fond of smarana than kirttana. They are "followers of smarana." They lead a secluded life, and mentally go on identifying themselves with a particular sakhi of their own age, her duty, her place of attendance in a particular place of Vrndavana, in a particular lila, under the guidance of a particular sakhi, and so on. They are required to go on meditating on all these things by their so-called guru. That is the process amongst the Sahajiya school, but we do not admit that. We consider it false and imaginary. They are not fit to enter that plane of Radha-Govinda lila. They do not have real sambandha-jnana, knowledge of what is what. They only go on with the habitual repetition of a particular mental speculation, but anartha-nivrtti (purging of all evils) or any other process based on it cannot be effected. Their imaginary achievement is sheer concoction. They are not aware of the facts - the ontological gradation from Viraja to Brahmaloka, Vaikuntha and Goloka. They are pukura-curiwale "pond thieves". To think that one can steal a pond is self-deception. We think that kind of "smarana" to be something like self-deception.

One must gradually reach the plane of truth - suddha-sattva. There are so many planes, so many planets to cross over - Bhur, Bhuvah, Svah, Mahar, Janar, Tapar, Satyaloka, Viraja, Brahmaloka.

 

Mahaprabhu says that the creeper of Bhakti grows and rises up to Goloka, and she has to cross all these planes.

 

upaniya bade lata 'brahmanda' bhedi' yaya

'viraja', 'brahmaloka', bhedi 'paravyoma' paya

tabe yaya tad upari 'goloka-vrndavana'

'krsna-carana' - kalpavrkse kare arohana

(Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita, Madhya 19.153.4)

"The creeper of Devotion is born, and grows to pierce the wall of the universe. It crosses the Viraja river of passivity (the "Causal Ocean") and the Brahman plane, and reaches to the Vaikuntha plane. Then it grows further up to Goloka Vrndavana, finally reaching to embrace the wish-yeilding tree of Krishna's Lotus Feet."

But the psuedo-devotees do not care to know what is Paravyoma, what is Brahmaloka, what is Viraja, what is the Brahmanda. Without caring to know about these things, they approach any guru, receive some mantram, and go on meditating. But in such a stage, if one goes on meditating on Radha-Govinda lila, instead of entering Radha-Govinda lila, he will rather entangle himself with the ladies and gents of this world. He will become entangled in the domain of lust and he will have to go to hell instead of going up to Goloka.

 

Carmma-mamsamaya - kama, prema - cidananda-dhama. The carnal appetite is lust, whereas Love is the abode of Divine Ecstasy. So imitation is not success. Rather, it degrades. Imitation degrades. Imagination is only a mental exercise.

 

Devotee: What if that mental exercise is done with faith?

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: Mind is separate from the soul. Sraddha, faith, is connected with the soul, atma, and mind is matter. Mind is a part the of material potency - Maya. This is clarified in Gita:

 

bhumir apo 'nalo vayur kham mano buddhir eva ca

ahankara itiyam me bhinna prakrtir astadha

(Bg. 7.4)

Mind is a product of the material potency, and the jiva is a product of parasakti, the principal potency. The Svarupa-sakti, the Lord's Personal Potency, is a further higher potency, higher than the jiva. The nature of the mind is mental speculation (manodharmma). That speculative thought has nothing to do with truth. The experiences of the mind are all drawn from the material world, the world of misconception. The mind is full of misconception (avan-manaso gocarah). Mind cannot reach the stage of feeling or perceiving truth proper. It is only related to mundane things and selfish exploitation.

</blockquote>

<hr>

 

I don't intend to offend anyone by presenting this strong statement. But my Guru Maharaj was very firm in saying that the "lila smarana" of beginners is only a mental exercise. The real duty of all followers of Mahaprabhu is to promote Nama-sankirtana, and by that service of promoting Nama-sankirtan then surely we will get the grace of Mahaprabhu, who is Radha Govinda combined. Attaining His Grace, we may find our swarup siddhi. But to try and imagine oneself as an associate within the group of the manjaris, this idea, according to my Guru Maharaj, is a terrible sort of vanity. And even if someone has been doing this smarana for 50 years at Radha Kunda, he may still be simply engaging in imaginary smarana.

 

Muralidhar

[stonehearted]

It's possible, I think, to encourage the importance of vaishnava disksha as given in the Gosvami granthas without perpetuating the rancor among the branches of our Gaudiya family. Some day we'll have to move beyond that. The accusations against Sarasvati Thakur, it appears, spring from this old friction. His preaching was revolutionary and ruffled the feathers of many of the then-orthodox followers of the Gaudiya lines. There's no videotape to prove or disprove his connection with Gaura Kishora das babaji. (And if ther were, who'd believe it these days?).

 

Evidence that he received the mercy of his gurus may be seen in his fulfilling the Lord's order that His name be sung in every town and village around the world. Bhaktivinoda introduced a modern, dynamic, revolutionary approach to sharing Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's teachings. (Actually, Mahaprabhu's preaching was itself revolutionary and shook up the orthodox wherever His influence was felt.) Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati understood that approach and used some rather unorthodox methods, such as reinstituting tridandi sannyasa, establishing a preaching institution, and many others, to continue in Bhaktivinoda's footsteps. Among his many qualified disciples, Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada further expanded the revolution by carrying the message to the entire world. Now many branches of Mahaprabhu's family, including those who dismiss the possiblity of spiritual qualificiation in BSST and his line, are benefiting from that revolutionary preaching.

 

I pray that some day we may give up this competitive spirit and become the humble instruments of guru and Gauranga.

 

I've written a little essay on this subject. You may find it at http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0209/ET02-7533.html but if you prefer CHAKRA, it's there too.

[sha]

 

I don't intend to offend anyone by presenting this strong statement. But my Guru Maharaj was very firm in saying that the "lila smarana" of beginners is only a mental exercise. The real duty of all followers of Mahaprabhu is to promote Nama-sankirtana, and by that service of promoting Nama-sankirtan then surely we will get the grace of Mahaprabhu, who is Radha Govinda combined. Attaining His Grace, we may find our swarup siddhi. But to try and imagine oneself as an associate within the group of the manjaris, this idea, according to my Guru Maharaj, is a terrible sort of vanity. And even if someone has been doing this smarana for 50 years at Radha Kunda, he may still be simply engaging in imaginary smarana.

 

 

Here is a message on 'Smarana' from another board:

 

Namaste.

 

A question was raised by a devotee about the 'proper and improper' methods of 'Lila Smarana and Roopa-Dhyan', loving remembrance and contemplation upon the Divine form of the Lord and His exploits.

 

My answer is given:

 

Whether the 'Smarana' and 'Roopa Dhyan' is done on familiar personalities or paintings, pictures or deities, the 'smarana' is all still material and it is not considered as Divine contemplation.

 

So whatever helps the 'sadhaka' to fondly remember his/her Divine Beloved, 'Ishta Deva', should be practiced, naturally and spontaneously.

 

yena tena prakAreNa

manaH kRSNe nivezayat..

 

Divine contemplation is only possible with Divinized (liberated) mind and senses, when the heart of the devotee is completely purified and blessed with 'Divya Prema', 'Svaroopa Shakti' of the Lord.

 

In other words only 'Siddha' Prema Bhaktas, Rasik Saints are ever engaged in the Divine contemplation of Nitya lila.

All the rest are still have to engage their 'material' minds in 'sadhana' until they attain 'Siddha Prema Bhakti'.

 

One can choose the most beautiful form of the Divine Couple according to one's taste, mellow (rasa) and affection for contemplation, so that one's Divinelove is constantly increased, totally purifying one's heart, destroying all 'anartha', impediments and the impurities of material mind.

 

This is the declaration of the Scriptures:

 

bhidyate hRdaya graMthiz

chidyante sarva saMzayAh

kSIyante cAsya karmANi

mayi dRSTe 'khilAtmani.

 

(Bhagavatam 11. 24. 30)

 

The Blessed Lord said:

 

<font color="red">"When the devotee SEES ME, the SELF OF ALL, the material knot (body, mind, intellect, ego etc.,)

of his heart BREAKS TO PIECES, all his doubts of avidya,

ignorance are dispelled and all the accumulated karmas of the past as well as karmas of the future are destroyed."</font>

 

At the blessed moment of God-realization the pure devotee, Siddha Premi, only perceives Lord's original Divine Form, no matter on what form he or she has been contemplating during sadhana all along.

 

premAGjanacchurita bhakti vilocanena

santaH sa daiva hRdayeSu vilokayanti,

yaM zyAma sundaram<big> acintya guNa svarUpaM</big>

govindam Adi puruSaM tamahaM bhajAmi"

 

(Sri Brahma Samhita. 38)

 

<font color="blue">"I worship my Lord Beloved Govinda,

the Primeval Supreme Personality,

Syama Sundara Whom the PURE DEVOTEES

ever SEE in the CORE of their HEARTS

with EYES ANOINTED with DIVINE LOVE,

as His transcendental form is beyond

the contemplation of the material mind

and His Blissful attributes as well as

lilas are INCONCEIVABLE to ordinary MINDS

(acintya guNa svarUpam)"</font>

 

aMgAni yasya sakalendriya vRttimanti

pazyanti pAnti kalayanti ciraM jaganti,

Ananda cinmaya sadujjvala vigrahasya

govindam Adi puruSaM tamahaM bhajAmi

 

(Sri Brahma Samhitam. 32)

 

<font color="red">"I worship my Divine Beloved Govinda,

the primeval Supreme Personality,

Whose transcendental form is full of

Amorous Love, absolute Knowledge,

Truth and eternal Bliss.

 

EACH of the limbs of His transcendental figure

POSSESSES the FULL FLEDGED functions of ALL ORGANS,

and eternally perceives, pervades and maintains

countless souls and universes,

both spiritual as well as material."</font>

 

Saint Tulasidas says in Sri Rama Carita Manas,

 

prabhu vyApaka sarvatra samAnA,

prEma sE prakata hOm mai jAnA

 

<font color="blue">The Lord is present equally (samaanaa) every where (sarvatra) and is known to be OMNIPRESENT.

But He MANIFESTS His Divine form by ONLY THROUGH

Siddha PREMA Bhakti, DIVINE LOVE, to His pure devotees!

 

That is why Gauranga Mahaprabhu also said:

 

athaH zrI kRSNa nAmAdi

na bhaved grAhyam indriyaiH,

sevonmukhe jihvAdau

svayam eva sphuraty adaH"

 

"ataeva kRSNera 'nAma','deha','vilAsa'

prAkRtendriya grAhya nahe, haya sva prakAza"

 

C.C.2.17.134, BRS

 

<font color="red">With these "MATERIAL MIND, SENSES DEVOID OF PURE LOVE",

ONE CAN NOT UNDERSTAND NOR PERCEIVE the TRANSCENDENTAL

FORM, HOLY NAME AND HIS BLISSFUL EXPLOITS.</font>

 

<font color="blue">HOWEVER, WHEN ONE IS ACTUALLY DEVOTED TO HIM

IN SPONTANEOUS Divine Love and Seva,

Lord is REVEALED by His Divine GRACE."

 

I hope this information is helpful to the devotees.

 

from: spiritualecstasyandmeditation/

 

Hari Bol!

[raga]

 

In regard to the "Guru Parampara of Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami", I will first of all present the direct quotes of Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Maharaj, from whom I received Harinama and Gayatri Diksa.

 

 

Dear Murali,

 

You must try to understand, with all due respect, that trying to prove siddhanta on the authority of Sridhar Maharaja means very little when the very conceptions of Bhaktisiddhanta are under scrutiny. You'll have to refer to sources older than that.

 

 

 

The point is, that this lady developed Krishna Prema after receiving Harinama from Srila Haridas Thakur. According to Chaitanya Charitamrta, these events happened in Benopala in Bangladesh when Srila Haridas Thakur was a young man. These events happened before Srila Haridas Thakur went to live near Shantipura, where he met Sri Advaita Acharya and the other devotees in that region.

 

...

 

My understanding is that Haridas Thakur that did not receive formal initiation. But even if he was initiated by Sri Advaita Acharya, that initiation would have happend AFTER HARIDAS INITIATED THE PROSTITUTE LADY.

 

 

Do you have any evidence to substantiate this idea?

 

The sixteenth chapter of Caitanya Bhagavata (Adi-khanda, 18-21) states:

 

buDhAna-grAmete avatIrNa haridAsa

se-bhAgye se saba deze kIrtana-prakAza

kata-dIna thAkiyA AilA gaGgA-tIre

AsiyA rahilA phuliyAya zAntipure

pAiyA tAhAna saGga AcArya-gosAJi

huGkAra karena Anandera anta nAi

haridAsa ThAkur o advaita-deva-saGge

bhAsena govinda-rasa-samudra-taraGge

 

"Haridasa Thakura appeared in the village of Budhana, and as a result that province is filled with kirtana even today. After residing there for some time, he came to the bank of the Ganges at Phuliya, near Santipura. Upon obtaining Haridasa's association, Advaita Acarya roared in unlimited ecstacy. Similarly, in the association of Advaita Prabhu, Haridasa Thakura floated on the waves of the ocean of Krishna consciousness.

 

You wrote to me in your letter: "According to Chaitanya Bhagavat, the incident where Haridas Thakur converted the prostitute woman into a devotee of Sri Krishna happened when he was a young man living in Benapole, in his native District of Jessore (Bangladesh)." This chapter entitled "Haridasa Mahima Varnana" does not mention the story of Haridas's meeting the prostitute. Indeed, I cannot find it anywhere in the Caitanya Bhagavata.

 

Here you say that this is actually confirmed in the Caitanya Caritamrita. I noticed that the verse 99 of the third chapter (Antya-lila) indeed states:

 

haridAsa yabe nija-gRha tyAga kailA

benApolera vana-madhye kata-dina rahilA

 

"After leaving his home, Haridasa stayed for some time in the forest of Benapola."

 

Advaita Prakasa (chapter nine) relates that at one point in time, Haridas wanted to leave the village of Phuliya, going to a remote place for engaging in solitary bhajan. He then traveled to Benapole again. The seventh chapter of Advaita Prakasa relates how Haridas was five years old when he left his home. I doubt Ramacandra Khan would have sent a prostitute to seduce a five year old boy to break his vow of celibacy.

 

At any rate, Haridas did not give diksa to the prostitute. There is no restriction over who can give harinam to others. Indeed, anyone can and should engage others in chanting harinama.

 

 

 

Now having said this, let me say that in regard to Srila Saraswati Thakur's initiation from Srila Gaurkishore Das Babaji Maharaj, it is just a waste of time arguing about exactly what was said at the time Srila Gaurkishore Das Babaji Maharaj accepted Srila Saraswati Thakur. The substantial thing at the time of Diksa is that the Guru gives the disciple His Divine Grace. The name of Hari will be spoken to the disciple, certainly, since the divine master is always chanting the Name and glorifying the Name. But the exact nature of the ritual of initiation may vary from time to time, and from place to place.

 

 

It is not a waste of time. If you feel it is a waste of time, feel free to stop wasting your precious time. As far as I am concerned, I do wish to know whether he received the pancaratrika diksa mantras from Gaura Kisora he later gave to others, for in the Padma Purana it is stated: sampradAya vihIna ye mantras te niSphala mataH -- "A mantra which is not received through the sampradaya will yield no fruit."

 

 

 

Srila Haridas Thakura gives the method for deliverance of (us) yavanas. We western born persons. His answer is loud sankirtan.

 

 

With all due respect, Mahaprabhu empowered the six Gosvamis to establish the methods of worship and write books accordingly. Aside this, the vast majority of Bhaktisiddhanta's disciples were Indian born. This hardly makes your point relevant to the situation of Bhaktisiddhanta.

 

 

Now in recent times some persons have started promoting the view that everyone should aspire to attain raganuga-bhajan. People can say this, but in our Chaitanya Saraswat Math we have a different idea.

...

I don't intend to offend anyone by presenting this strong statement. But my Guru Maharaj was very firm in saying that the "lila smarana" of beginners is only a mental exercise. The real duty of all followers of Mahaprabhu is to promote Nama-sankirtana, and by that service of promoting Nama-sankirtan then surely we will get the grace of Mahaprabhu, who is Radha Govinda combined. Attaining His Grace, we may find our swarup siddhi. But to try and imagine oneself as an associate within the group of the manjaris, this idea, according to my Guru Maharaj, is a terrible sort of vanity. And even if someone has been doing this smarana for 50 years at Radha Kunda, he may still be simply engaging in imaginary smarana.

 

 

You have the right to believe so. And I have the right to not believe or accept this idea unless you can establish your presentation by referring to the authoritative writings of the Six Gosvamis, Narottama and Visvanatha. Whenever there is a conflict between what they say and what a contemporary teacher says, I tend to accept the foundational conceptions of the Gosvamis.

 

It is explained by Jiva in his Bhakti Sandarbha and Visvanatha in his Raga Vartma Candrika that prior to svarupa siddhi, the inner contemplation will be on a mentally conceived siddha-body which one aspires for. But this would already be the subject matter of another lengthy conversation. Let us try to stick to this topic for now.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

You must try to understand, with all due respect, that trying to prove siddhanta on the authority of Sridhar Maharaja means very little when the very conceptions of Bhaktisiddhanta are under scrutiny. You'll have to refer to sources older than that.

 

 

And I am sure you will equally agree that the authority of questionable babas who were aversive to Bhaktisiddhanta and who fabricated uncomfirmable stories to discredit Bhaktisiddhanta are also not relevant testimony.

 

 

sampradAya vihIna ye mantras te niSphala mataH -- "A mantra which is not received through the sampradaya will yield no fruit."

 

 

Since Bhaktisiddhanta belonged to a sampradaya, whatever mantras he gave (regardless of the source of those mantras) would bear fruit. All auxiliary mantras manifest through sadhana from the bija mantra. The physical whispering of external sound in the ear of a person is not necessary. This verse from Padma Purana does not say what you imply it states.

 

One must receive mantras through the sampradaya. Those mantras do not necessarily have to have been passed down from time immemorial. Mantras are realized through sadhana, thus the worshipper becomes a drashta of the mantra, or the seer of the mantra. This is the tradition, and it has been for thousands of years in all schools of Vedic philosophy.

 

What are the origins of the Gaudiya diksha mantras? How far back in history can they be traced? They were introduced into the sampradaya at a point in time by a drashta.

 

 

[raga]

 

And I am sure you will equally agree that the authority of questionable babas who were aversive to Bhaktisiddhanta and who fabricated uncomfirmable stories to discredit Bhaktisiddhanta are also not relevant testimony.

 

 

To begin with, you would have to prove that they were adversible to Bhaktisiddhanta prior to this incident. Also you cannot claim the story to be fabricated just because you do not like it.

 

You call the eye-witness accounts of at least four recognized and respected Vaishnavas irrelevant. If you'd have read the biography of Pandit Ramakrishna Das Baba in the Krishna Talk section, you'd be aware of the fact that he was universally respected among the Gaudiya Vaishnavas of his time, and indeed even by acaryas of other sampradayas would approach him. Prior to this incident, even Bhaktisiddhanta took his entourage for the Baba's darshan on Vraja Mandala parikrama. You can read this in OBL Kapoor's "Saints of Vraja".

 

If we were to adhere to any decent standards of evaluating evidence in trying to attain certainty on an event which took place, I am certain that four eye-witness account would weigh more in the scale of an impartial judge than an unsubstantiated claim with no witnesses and many factors which give rise to suspicion which have been discussed before.

 

 

 

One must receive mantras through the sampradaya. Those mantras do not necessarily have to have been passed down from time immemorial. Mantras are realized through sadhana, thus the worshipper becomes a drashta of the mantra, or the seer of the mantra. This is the tradition, and it has been for thousands of years in all schools of Vedic philosophy.

 

What are the origins of the Gaudiya diksha mantras? How far back in history can they be traced? They were introduced into the sampradaya at a point in time by a drashta.

 

 

The mantras as we receive them are traced back to the eternal associates of Mahaprabhu. Some of the mantras (Gopala Mantra and Kama Gayatri) do and others (Gaura Gayatri etc.) don't have a history prior to that. We take the mantra as authorized because it was given on the command of Sri Caitanya, Sri Nityananda and Sri Advaita. Sri Caitanya delegated the giving of mantra to these two Prabhus, Nityananda and Advaita, who both have a massive following in the Gaudiya tradition. Additionally Lokanatha, Syamananda and others initiated vast diksa-paramparas which exist unbroken up to the present day. This does not yield support to broken zig-zag paramparas where diksa-mantras appear and disappear in the course of time.

 

Would you propose that when I become a seer I can give whatever mantra I wish without having received it from anyone?

 

 

 

The physical whispering of external sound in the ear of a person is not necessary.

 

 

In Hari Bhakti Vilasa (2nd vilasa) the giving of mantra from the mouth of the guru to the ear of the disciple is an essential aspect in the description of Vaishnava diksa. Diksa means the giving of mantra from the mouth of the guru to the ear of the disciple.

 

The Bhagavata (11.21.15) states 'mantrasya ca parijJAnaM' - the mantra is purified by the right knowledge". Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti writes in his commentary on this verse that one cannot just take mantras or their purports from books to reach the same effect: sad guru mukhAt yathAvat parijJAnam mantra-zuddhiH – "The mantra is purified when it properly emanates from the mouth of a sad-guru."

 

Brahma Vaivarta Purana (Krishna Janma Khanda 83.34) also leaves no uncertainty over the subject matter:

 

guru vaktrAd viSNu mantro yasya kare vizatyayam

taM vaiSNavaM mahApUtaM pravadanti manISiNaH

 

"The wise call those persons in whose ears the Vishnu-mantra enters, as it emanated from the Guru's mouth, greatly sanctified Vaishnavas."

[muralidhar]

--

My understanding is that Haridas Thakur that did not receive formal initiation. But even if he was initiated by Sri Advaita Acharya, that initiation would have happend AFTER HARIDAS INITIATED THE PROSTITUTE LADY.

--

Raga said:

<hr>

Do you have any evidence to substantiate this idea?

<hr>

The following is an extract from the book Sri Krishna Chaitanya, written by Sri Nishikanta Sanyal and published in 1932. Professor Sanyal says, "Haridas must have given up his family and society in some manner that is not definitely known to us". Professor Sanyal does not give the name of Sri Advaita Acharya as the Guru of Haridas Thakur; rather, he says Haridas Thakur was "the recipient of the mercy of a Vaishnava".

 

Madhava may choose to disregard the things in this Gaudiya Math publication written by Sri Nishikanta Sanyal (edited by Srila Sridhar Maharaj). In a similar way, we have been advised not to accept the book Advaita Prakasa as authoratitive shastra since it contains many dubious things.

<hr>

<blockquote>

Thakur Haridas made his appearance in the village of Budhan in the District of Jessore in East Bengal. This has made that part of the country since then a center of the worship of Godhead by means of the Kirtan. Thakur Haridas was born in a Muhammedan family. He comes into the light of our definite narrative under his changed name of Haridas, which means literally ‘the servant of Hari’; Hari being the Name of Godhead in the Scriptures. So Haridas must have given up his family and society in some manner that is not definitely known to us, had been the recipient of the mercy of a Vaishnava and had already made extraordinary progress on the path of pure devotion, although he was in the first flush of youth when he is found living as a recluse in the forest of Benapole in his native District of Jessore. In the depth of the forest he resided in a solitary hut, worshipped the holy Tulasi, chanted daily the Holy Name three lacs (3,00,000) of times night and day and ate food cooked in the homes of Brahmanas, which he obtained by begging.

 

The Hindu Chief, who was in charge of the Local Administration of that part of the country, bore the name of Ramchandra Khan. He was one of the greatest of atheists and a hater of the servants of Vishnu (lit. the One All-pervading Lord). Haridas was treated with great reverence by the people. Ramchandra Khan found this intolerable. He could not rest till he had actually devised a plan for effecting the humiliation of Thakur Haridas. For this purpose he did not hesitate to stoop to be basest of devices.

 

Ramchandra Khan, finding that Haridas was reputed to be absolutely free from all vices, hit upon a plan of creating in him the vice by exposing which he hoped to accomplish his ruin. He summoned to his help the most famous harlots and told them to destroy the chastity of Haridas who was under the vow of continence as an ascetic. One of the harlots, who was young and possessed great beauty, undertook to effect his ruin in course of three days. Ramchandra Khan pressed her to take an armed footman (paik) who was to catch him red-handed and bring both of them for punishment. But the harlot proposed that she should at first go by herself and after being with Haridas once take the paik to capture him on her second visit.

 

That harlot, having put on her best attire, then presented herself at nightfall at the solitary cell of Thakur Haridas. After making her obeisance to the Tulasi she went up to the entrance of the cell and bowing to the Thakur remained there standing. She then sat down at the door-step, exposing her body to the view of Haridas, and made confession of her uncontrollable passion for him praying to be favoured by his intimate society.

 

Thakur Haridas agreed to fulfill her wish after he had finished chanting the due number of the Name, bidding her in the meantime to wait and listen to the Sankirtana of the Name chanted by himself. The harlot on this assurance remained seated there as Haridas went on with his loud chant of the Holy Name til break of day. The harlot came away disappointed when it was morning, and informed Ramchandra Khan that Haridas had promised to enjoy her society and that the promise would be carried out when she met him next night.

 

As the harlot presented herself before Thakur Haridas on the second evening he expressed his request that as on the previous occasion he could not keep his promise to her for the reason that he could not complete the chant of the due number of the Name, he would certainly fulfill her desire after the chanting of the due number of the Name had been completed, and he accordingly bade her wait there and listen to the chanting of the Name. The harlot made obeisance to the Tulasi and the Thakur and sat listening to the chanting of the Holy Name. But she naturally grew restive as the night was drawing to a close. The Thakur, noticing her impatience, told her that he had taken the vow of chanting a crore of the Name in course of the month. He had expected to finish the full number that night but could not do so although he had chanted ‘Him’ the whole night. The number would be certainly completed by the next night and then the vow would be fulfilled and he would be in the position to enjoy her company. The harlot reported accordingly to Ramchandra Khan.

 

On the third evening the harlot duly made her appearance and, after making obeisance to the Tulasi and the Thakur, sat at the entrance of the cell listening to the chanting of the Holy Name, chanting the Same herself, till the close of that night. The mind of the harlot was changed by chanting the Holy Name all night in the company of Thakur Haridas. She now fell prostrate at the Feet of Thakur Haridas and confessed to him everything regarding the plot of Ramchandra Khan. She said she had committed endless sin as she was a harlot by trade. She begged the Thakur to save her, who was so vile, by his mercy.

 

Haridas Thakur replied that he knew everything about the Khan and would have left the place three days ago. He had delayed his departure by three days on her account. The harlot then prayed that he might mercifully instruct her as to how she was to get rid of the miseries of the worldly life. Thakur Haridas then tendered her this advice. ‘Give away everything of your household to the Brahmanas. Come and stay here in this cell. chant constantly the Holy Name. Worship the Tulasi. You will then obtain the Feet of Krishna in no time’. After saying this and instructing her in the Holy Name the Thakur rose up and left the place, chanting the Name of Hari.

 

Then that harlot on obtaining the command of the Guru gave away to the Brahmanas all the wealth that she had. With shaven head and a single piece of cloth for wrapping her body she lived in that cell and took the Holy Name three lakhs of times in course of every night and day. She worshipped the Tulasi, ate uncooked food by chewing, and often fasted. The senses were controlled and love of Godhead manifested itself. She became a famous devotee and a great spiritual teacher; and Vaishnavas of the highest order often came thither to have a sight of her. The people were astonished by this wonderful behaviour of the harlot and bowed with reverence whenever they spoke of the greatness of Haridas.

 

As the above theme is the subject of the highest importance to the present Age, I have tried to keep scrupulously to the words of Sree Kaviraj Goswami in describing this famous event of the life of Thakur Haridas. The chanting of the Holy Name of Krishna imparted by a pure devotee rescued a youthful harlot who had tried to seduce the saint at the instigation of a most profligate atheist. By this process the harlot was not merely rescued from a life of shame but became a devotee of the Lord fit to lift others to the plane of perfect purity.

 

The chanting of the Holy Name can, therefore, reclaim the worst of sinners. The Holy Name has to be heard with reverence from the lips of a pure devotee. The Holy Name has to be received as a Sacrament from a pure devotee by complete submission at his feet. The Holy Name so received has to be constantly chanted by being free from all offense. The Tulasi has to be worshipped. All earthly possessions and all association with worldly people, especially in matters of food, clothing and residence, must be disowned. By this method, in a short time, the highest spiritual state is realizable. That state consists in serving exclusively the Feet of Krishna. This is the special Divine Dispensation for this Age of discord announced by the spiritual Scriptures and promulgated by the Supreme Lord, Sree Krishna-Chaitanya, through His eternal servant, Thakur Haridas.

</blockquote>

<hr>

[muralidhar]

Madhava said:

<hr>

<blockquote>

At any rate, Haridas did not give diksa to the prostitute. There is no restriction over who can give harinam to others. Indeed, anyone can and should engage others in chanting harinama.

</blockquote>

<hr>

 

Yes. Precisely.

 

This is exactly what I am saying.

 

The lady attained Krishna Prema, and she had received just the Harinama.

 

Not Mantra diksa.

 

[muralidhar]

 

Madhava also said:

<hr>

<blockquote>

I do wish to know whether he received the pancaratrika diksa mantras from Gaura Kisora he later gave to others, for in the Padma Purana it is stated: sampradAya vihIna ye mantras te niSphala mataH -- "A mantra which is not received through the sampradaya will yield no fruit."

</blockquote>

<hr>

 

Your logic is very faulty.

 

You have rejected my statement where I quoted Srila Sridhar Maharaj:

<hr>

The holy name of Krsna is so important that even the gayatri mantra may not be necessary. It is said: na ca sat kriya, na dikse na ca purascarya manadilate mantrayam rasana spri hanato sri krsna namatmaka: "One need not undergo all the purificatory processes, or follow the six ritualistic ceremonies mentioned in the Vedas for pious life; one need not even take initiation into the gayatri mantra. If one simply chants the holy name of Krsna without offense, everything will be successful." The holy name of Krsna is the most important consideration. The gayatri mantra may not even be necessary.

<hr>

It is a fact that a devotee can attain Krishna Prema if they receive Harinama from a pure Guru and then engage in chanting the Name purely. Mantra initiation may not always necessary. The Name itself can take a devotee to the highest stage of devotional life.

 

<hr>

<blockquote>

ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam

sreyah-kairava-candrika-vitaranamvidya-vadhu-jivanam

anandambudhi-vardhanam prati-padam purnamrtasvadanam

sarvatma-snapanam param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam

 

"The holy name of Krsna cleanses the mirror of the heart and extinguishes the fire of misery in the forest of birth and death.

 

As the evening lotus blooms in the moon's cooling rays, the heart begins to blossom in the nectar of the name.

 

And at last the soul awakens to its real inner treasure — a life of love with Krsna.

 

Again and again tasting nectar, the soul dives and surfaces in the ever-increasing ocean of ecstatic joy.

 

All phases of the self of which we may conceive are fully satisfied and purified, and at last conquered by the all-auspicious influence of the holy name of Krsna."

</blockquote>

<hr>

 

Sri Krishna Sankirtan, the chanting of the holy name of Hari, can take a soul to the highest stage of attainment. Mantra initiation may not even be necessary to attain this stage.

<hr>

<blockquote>

namnam akari bahudha nija sarva-saktis

tatrarpita niyamitah smarane na kalah

etadrisi tava krpa bhagavan mamapi

durdaivam idrsam ihajani nanuragah

 

O my Lord, Your holy name bestows auspiciousness upon all. And You have unlimited names such as Krsna and Govinda by which You reveal Yourself.

 

In Your many holy names You have kindly invested all Your transcendental potency. And in chanting these names, there are no strict rules concerning time or place.

 

Out of Your cuaseless mercy, You have descended in the form of divine sound, but my great misfortune is that I have no love for Your holy name."

</blockquote>

<hr>

 

This statement of Mahaprabhu certainly substantiates Srila Sridhar Maharaj's statement that the Name is the principle thing within the Diksa Mantra. The name contains all the transcendental potency of Krishna (sarva-saktis).

 

In the commentary to verse 3 of Sri Brahma Samhita (Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math edition, 1992):

<hr><blockquote>

The revelation to the conditioned souls of the unmanifest Lila of Goloka - Goloka being the selfsame majestic manifestation of Gokula - is of two types, namely through worship by Mantra (Mantropasanamayi) and by pure sponteneity (Svarasiki). Sri Jiva has explained in his writings that any one of the various locations and associated circumstances of the Divine Pastimes have their constant localized existence, and so may be meditated upon by the appropriate mantra. The meditational revelation of Goloka that arises from the constant localized Mantra meditation upon a location corresponding to a singular Pastime is Mantropasanamayi-lila. But those Pastimes that pervade many localities with manifold Divine Sports and Revelries are full of variegated sponteneity, and thus are Svarasiki; that is, they are revealed to the devotees whose transcendental sponteneity has matured.

</blockquote>

<hr>

 

Perhaps I might state this again in very simple terms.

 

The Mantra pertains to particular Lilas of Sri Sri Radha Govinda, and it gives the meditator a Divine Image of the Nama, Rupa, Guna and Lila of the Divine Couple. For a genuine practitioner of Mantra Meditation, the Mantra can give an insight into the Divine Lila. A clean hearted devotee in the mood of spontaneous devotion can experience the full insight into the Lila - and this happens due to the Mercy of Sri Sri Radha Govinda. But those persons whose hearts are not pure who engage in "bogus smaranam" will be cut to pieces by the ten spears (trisulas) that point out in ten directions from the Divine Form of the Transcendental Name (see Brahma Samhita, verse 5). In view of this, how do we practice devotional service in a pure way, so we can get the mercy of Sri Sri Radha Govinda? It is Easy. If we worship Sri Gauranga, who is Sri Sri Radha Govinda combined, we will attain their Grace and Mercy.

 

And Sri Gauranga is worshipped by means of sankirtan.

 

He is pleased when we make sankirtan. And Srila Saraswati Thakur has created such a huge sankirtan party. His sankirtan wave has swept across the entire globe. Only an offensive, psuedo-devotee would criticize Srila Saraswati Thakur. Srila Saraswati Thakur dedicated his entire life to preaching the glories of Sri Krishna Sankirtan and his life's work was an amazing achievement.

 

[muralidhar]

Madhava said:

<hr>

The mantras as we receive them are traced back to the eternal associates of Mahaprabhu. Some of the mantras (Gopala Mantra and Kama Gayatri) do and others (Gaura Gayatri etc.) don't have a history prior to that. We take the mantra as authorized because it was given on the command of Sri Caitanya, Sri Nityananda and Sri Advaita. Sri Caitanya delegated the giving of mantra to these two Prabhus, Nityananda and Advaita, who both have a massive following in the Gaudiya tradition. Additionally Lokanatha, Syamananda and others initiated vast diksa-paramparas which exist unbroken up to the present day. This does not yield support to broken zig-zag paramparas where diksa-mantras appear and disappear in the course of time.

<hr>

 

You neglect to consider an important fact.

 

Sri Chaitanyadev himself accepted the Bhagavatam philosophy, and didn't even write any scriptures himself.

 

And in Bhagavatam we read of how Sukadev, the main speaker in Bhagavatam, became connected with the Divine without receiving any of these mantras that have been passed down in Gaudiya Sampradayas for the past five hundred years. Sukadev is an obvious example in Bhagavatam but there are others throughout history. Who was the Guru of Jayadev. Did he get some special initiation so he could get the realizations to write Gita Govinda.

 

New revelations are coming into the world, whenever God sends his messengers. And while you may not accept that Srila Saraswati Thakur was a messenger from God, there are many people who feel he is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Muralidar prabhu

Dandavat pranam

 

ten tridents block entrance to Goloka

 

we are called to bless and encourage

not to punish, or intimidate.

 

First you said the reformer of the Gaudya Sampradaya Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati

did take diksa from the Babaji gaura-kishor, and I was happy.

Than your arguments proved to be quite speculative

and accompanied by threats, in the mood of passionate missionaries,

(please be magnanimous and forgive me for the last remark).

 

Finding a way out of the dilemma you proclaimed Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati

didn t need diksa, and I would like to agree with that, but

Srila Jiva Gosvami writes in bhakti sandarbha 283

 

In spite of the autonomous potency of the holy name

The previous mahajanas accepted diksa from their gurus.

 

Srila Gurudeva writes in his commentary from Srila Vishvanti Cakravarti Thakura s Bhakti rasaamrita sindhu bindu to the second anga of bhakti, (Sri krsna diska sisksadi)

as defined by Srila Rupa Gosvamipada in Bhakti rasAmRta sindhu:

 

Similarly, those who desire to follow in the footsteps of those mahapurusas

must also accept diksa and BHAGAVAD MANTRA from Sri gurudeva.

 

Arguments and logic, they can prove something.

 

Once again the importance of giving the mantra from the heart of sad-guru

into the heart of the jiva.

 

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says:

The way to bhakti is the way of shabdha brahma (transcendental sound).

 

Srila Bhaktivedanta Aranya Maharaja explained that

Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explained in the purport of this verse:

Asse zrutekSita-patho nanu nAtha puMsAm (Srimad Bhagavata 3.9.11.)

(thank you Madhava Prabhu)

 

that the path to Krsna can be seen through the ears and

that hearing must be done from the mouth of the holy person.

 

If the path is transcendental why do you limit it by physical association?

Oh, any transcendetal thing, comes from transcendental source;

like harinama, diksa mantras hari katha are transcendental,

srimad bhagavatam is transcendental,

so transcendental things come from transcendental source.

Everything in THIS world is material! So, where it will come from?

Only when any realized person descende in this world

and is carying bhakti-shakti with them, than you can receive what is transcendental.

 

When a pure devotee speaks,

mixed within his voice are the safron particle

of the lotus feet of Krsna, says Srimad Bhagavatam;

Srila Gurudeva says that even if one doesn t understand the language one should hear hari katha from the holy person.

 

please forgive this most unqualified person

for any offensive statement.

 

Your correction is wellcomed.

 

 

[anadi]

The previous post belongs to me.

anadi

[raga]

 

The following is an extract from the book Sri Krishna Chaitanya, written by Sri Nishikanta Sanyal and published in 1932. Professor Sanyal says, "Haridas must have given up his family and society in some manner that is not definitely known to us". Professor Sanyal does not give the name of Sri Advaita Acharya as the Guru of Haridas Thakur; rather, he says Haridas Thakur was "the recipient of the mercy of a Vaishnava".

 

 

Haridas did chant three lakhs already prior to being initiated by Advaita Prabhu. Certainly he was a recipient of the mercy of a Vaishnava, if not several.

 

 

 

Madhava may choose to disregard the things in this Gaudiya Math publication written by Sri Nishikanta Sanyal (edited by Srila Sridhar Maharaj). In a similar way, we have been advised not to accept the book Advaita Prakasa as authoratitive shastra since it contains many dubious things.

 

 

It is a fact that some do suspect the authenticity of Advaita Prakasa, saying that it was written later and attributed to Isana Thakura. I have not studied the history of this grantha, but it has certainly been around for at least for a couple of centuries. The book of Nishkanta Sanyal is certainly a modern work. He must refer to older sources if he wishes to establish something authoritative in regards to Haridas.

 

[raga]

 

The holy name of Krsna is so important that even the gayatri mantra may not be necessary. It is said: na ca sat kriya, na dikse na ca purascarya manadilate mantrayam rasana spri hanato sri krsna namatmaka: "One need not undergo all the purificatory processes, or follow the six ritualistic ceremonies mentioned in the Vedas for pious life; one need not even take initiation into the gayatri mantra. If one simply chants the holy name of Krsna without offense, everything will be successful." The holy name of Krsna is the most important consideration. The gayatri mantra may not even be necessary.

 

 

Have you read the Bhakti Sandarbha? There are many impressive incidents in the history of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, but Bhakti Sandarbha presents the conclusive philosophical thesis on the practice of devotion. Sri Jiva writes in Anuccheda 283:

 

<font color=darkblue>yadyapi zrI-bhAgavata-mate paJcarAtrAdivad arcana-mArgasyAvazyakatvaM nAsti, tad vinApi zaraNApatty-AdInAm ekatareNApi puruSArtha-siddher abhihitatvAt, tathApi zrI-nAradAdi-vartmAnusaradbhiH zrI-bhagavatA saha sambandha-vizeSaM dIkSA-vidhAnena zrI-guru-caraNa-sampAditaM cikIrSadbhiH kRtAyAM dIkSAyAm arcanam avazyaM kriyetaiva |

 

"Although in the opinion of the Bhagavata Purana, the path of arcana, like the Pancaratra and so forth, is not necessary, since, even without that, one can achieve the goal of human life by one of the other methods like surrender (saranapatti) and the rest, still those who are following the path of Narada and others and who desire the particular relationship with the Lord that is effected at the feet of the guru by the rite of diksa necessarily perform arcana when diksa is completed." </font>

 

Instead of imitating the miracles performed by the powerful Mahajanas we should follow the law they present.

 

You have quoted the "na dikse na ca purascarya" stanza without proper reference. Indeed, quoting this verse Sridhar Maharaja himself says in the ninth chapter of Sri Guru and His Grace, "it is said..." as the only reference. For the record, this is the 29th prayer of Rupa Gosvami's Padyavali, quoted from Laksmidhara's Bhagavan Nama Kaumudi.

 

The words of this prayer are certainly true. Looking at the context in which the word "diksa" appears in the verse, you will inevitably notice how it is surrounded by several karma-kandiya activities. It is an open question whether this refers to pancaratrika vaishnava diksa or initiation with Brahma Gayatri, the ritualistic sandhya-vandana of brahmins. Looking at the context, the latter option seems more likely.

 

In your translation, "one need not even take initiation into the gayatri mantra", the word "even" is used to make an impression that the diksa mentioned in the verse is far superior to sat-kriya and purascarana. However, the word "even" does not appear in the original Sanskrit of the verse. Additionally the fragment of a verse quoted by Sridhar Maharaja is reversed. Here is the original verse:

 

<font color=darkblue>AkRSTiH kRta-cetasAM sumanasAm uccAManaM cAMhasAm

AcaNDAlam amUka-loka-sulabho vazyaz ca mukti-zriyaH |

no dIkSAM na ca sat-kriyAM na ca purazcaryAM manAg IkSate

mantro 'yaM rasanA-spRg eva phalati zrI-kRSNa-nAmAtmakaH ||29||

zrI-lakSmIdharANAm ||</font>

 

Let me offer a verbatim translation of the same:

 

<font face=darkblue>“The deeply thoughtful, pure-minded persons are attracted to it; it is the destroyer of sinful reactions of the candalas and the fools; the opulences of mukti are under its control; it does not even slightly depend on diksa, pious deeds and preparatory rituals; just by touching the tongue, this mantra consisting of Sri Krishna’s names is fruitful!”</font>

 

First of all, you may note that the verse actually does not speak of Krishna-nama itself, but of mantra consisting of Sri Krishna's names. The independence of the nAmAtmaka-mantra is discussed in the 284th Anuccheda at great length. Sri Jiva presents several references stating how Bhagavan Namatmaka-mantra is independent from preparatory rituals, pious deeds and so forth. He mentions Gopala-mantra, Nrisimha-mantra and Varaha-mantra.

 

Sri Jiva Gosvami further discusses the theology nAmAtmaka-mantra and the necessity for diksa in this Anuccheda of Bhakti Sandarbha as follows:

 

<font color=darkblue>nanu bhagavan-nAmAtmakA eva mantrAH | tatra vizeSeNa namaH-zabdAdy-alaMkRtAH zrIbhagavatA zrImad-RSibhiz cAhita-zakti-vizeSAH zrIbhagavatA samam Atma-sambandha-vizeSa-pratipAdakAz ca | tatra kevalAni zrIbhagavan-nAmAny api nirapekSANy eva parama-puruSArtha-phala-paryanta-dAna-samarthAni | tato mantreSu nAmato'py adhika-sAmarthye labdhe kathaM dIkSAdy-apekSA | ucyate | yadyapi svarUpato nAsti tathApi prAyaH svabhAvato dehAdi-sambandhena kadartha-zIlAnAM vikSipta-cittAnAM janAnAM tat-tat-saMkocIkaraNAya zrImad-RSi-prabhRtibhir atrArcana-mArge kvacit kvacit kAcit kAcin maryAdA sthApitAsti | tatas tad-ullaGghane zAstraM prAyazcittam udbhAvayati | tata ubhayam api nAsamaJjasam iti tatra tat-tad-apekSA nAsti |

 

“Indeed the mantra consists of the names of Bhagavan. Therefore the mantras chanted by great devotees and sages are characterized with the ornamented ‘namah’ and contain special potency nondifferent from Sri Bhagavan, and they cause one to obtain a special relationship with the Lord. Therefore the mere chanting the name of Bhagavan is sufficient for attaining the fruit of the supreme goal of life. Someone may say, ‘Then if the name is sufficient for attaining the goal, can diksa and so forth be rejected?’

 

To this it is said: ‘Although essentially there is no need for this, due to a connection with the material body and so forth people are engaged in unmeaningful acts which agitate the consciousness. For overcoming this, the sages have established the path of arcana-marga through which one attains the proper standards. To overcome this, the scriptures present preparatory deeds. Therefore it is improper to reject either of the two.”</font>

 

The conclusion of Sri Jiva is very clear in this regard.

[raga]

 

You neglect to consider an important fact.

 

Sri Chaitanyadev himself accepted the Bhagavatam philosophy, and didn't even write any scriptures himself.

 

And in Bhagavatam we read of how Sukadev, the main speaker in Bhagavatam, became connected with the Divine without receiving any of these mantras that have been passed down in Gaudiya Sampradayas for the past five hundred years. Sukadev is an obvious example in Bhagavatam but there are others throughout history. Who was the Guru of Jayadev. Did he get some special initiation so he could get the realizations to write Gita Govinda.

 

 

This is indeed an important consideration which is addressed in the fourteenth verse of Narottama's Prema Bhakti Candrika.

 

<font color="darkblue"><center>mahAjanera yei patha, tAte habe anurata

pUrbApara kariyA bicAra

sAdhana-smaraNa-lIlA, ihAte na kara helA

kAya mane kariyA susAra</center>

"With great affection I will follow the path of the Mahajanas, differentiating between the previous and the later. Never neglect the sadhana of lila-smarana, for it is the very essence of the mind."</font>

 

Sri Visvanatha comments on this verse:

 

<font color="darkblue">daNDakAraNya-vAsi munayo bRhat vAmanokta zrutayaz ca candrakAnti jayadeva vidyApati caNDi dAsa bilvamaGgalAdayaz ca pUrva mahAjanAH SaD gosvAminaH para mahAjanAH.

 

"The sages of the Dandakaranya-forest, the Srutis mentioned in Brihad Vamanokta, Candrakanti, Jayadeva, Vidyapati, Candi Das, Bilvamangala and others are previous mahajanas. The six Gosvamis are later mahajanas."</font>

 

Thus we follow both the bhava and the standards of the later mahajanas who were directly empowered by Mahaprabhu to write down His theology and to establish the standards to be followed by His followers.

[muralidhar]

Regarding my statement that the Brahma Samhita says there are ten tridents in the form of mantram that are situated in the ten directions. I can only suggest that the reader should themself go through the commentary of verse 5 of Sri Brahma Samhita.

 

My statement was in the context of whether it is of benefit for persons to engage in lila-smaranam while still being filled with mundane mental desires. It is clear from reading this verse of Brahma Samhita that the commentator says persons with wrongful ideas will not be able to approach Goloka, which is non-different from the Nama, and which is protected on different sides by these tridents, in the form of mantras.

[Guest guest]

Here is what Jagat wrote about Hari Das before:

 

"According to Advaita Prakasha, Hari Das was initiated by Advaita Prabhu. But in my opinion, he never received Pancharatrika initiation. Hari Das was quite a bit older than Mahaprabhu. Most of the events that are described in Chaitanya Bhagavata took place before Mahaprabhu was born."

 

http://www.indiadivine.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=16450&Forum=UBB1&Words=haridas&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=2&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=16448&Search=true#Post16450

[muralidhar]

quote:

<hr>

First you said the reformer of the Gaudya Sampradaya Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati

did take diksa from the Babaji gaura-kishor, and I was happy.

<hr>

 

Perhaps I didn't make my point clearly.

 

Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati did receive Diksa from Srila Gaurkishore Babaji.

 

Because he was a disciple, he was able to receive the holy body of Srila Gaurkishore Babaji and make his samadhi, in spite of the opposition he received from many opponents.

 

I am absolutely certain that Srila Gaurkishore Babaji gave Srila Saraswati Thakur the instruction to chant the Name of Hari constantly. This constitutes proper diksa, according to Srila Sridhar Maharaj, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and others.

 

There is the example of the prostitute lady who received the Nama and attained Prema. Accoring to Srila Krishndas Kaviraj Goswami, the Nama can give the highest benefit.

 

The Mantra Diksa can help a person make progress, but the Nama is the important element in the mantra.

 

Sri Chaitanyadev says:

namnam akari bahudha nija sarva-saktis

 

That is, the Name is filled with transcendental potency. The Name can take a person to the highest realization. The name is self-effulgent Sri Sri Radha Krishna.

 

Sukadev Goswami received transcendental knowledge from Vyasa (divya-jnana) but he did not accept any type of diksa. The example is clear in Bhagavatam, and Mahaprabhu has accepted Bhagavatam as proper siddhanta. What is revealed as the path of pure bhakti in Bhagavatam, that revelation was approved of by Mahaprabhu.

 

 

 

[raga]

 

Regarding my statement that the Brahma Samhita says there are ten tridents in the form of mantram that are situated in the ten directions. I can only suggest that the reader should themself go through the commentary of verse 5 of Sri Brahma Samhita.

 

My statement was in the context of whether it is of benefit for persons to engage in lila-smaranam while still being filled with mundane mental desires. It is clear from reading this verse of Brahma Samhita that the commentator says persons with wrongful ideas will not be able to approach Goloka, which is non-different from the Nama, and which is protected on different sides by these tridents, in the form of mantras.

 

 

By "commentator" I take it that you mean Bhaktivinoda, since Jiva Gosvami does not comment on the three tridents. Here is the exact Bengali text and the translation, as it appears in the Brahma Samhita edition of Sri Caitanya Sarasvata Math of Navadvipa, "Offered to the Lotus Hands of Sri Acharyyadev His Divine Grace Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev-Goswami Maharaj".

 

<font color=darkblue>kRSNaprasAda vyatIta yaGhara kebala cintar dbarai golokagamanAdi ceSTa karena, taGhader nibAraka dazaTI nairazarUpa zula rahiyache | yogamArge ba jnAnamArge Asite gele sei dazaTi zule biddha haiya dambhika lokagaNa parAhat hana |

 

"The ten spears of dissuasion fan out in the ten directions to arrest those who, without the grace of Krishna, attempt to approach or associate with Goloka through contemplation. The vainglorious paths of meditation and knowledge-cum-renunciation (yoga, jnana) who attempt to approach Goloka are thwarted, being pierced by those ten spears."</font>

 

We may easily observe that the "contemplators" of this verse who are barred from Goloka are of two kinds, namely the yogis and the jnanis. The commentary goes on for a couple of paragraphs after this elaborating on the flaw in the approach of the yogis and jnanis. Thus you have taken the commentary completely out of context.

[raga]

 

I am absolutely certain that Srila Gaurkishore Babaji gave Srila Saraswati Thakur the instruction to chant the Name of Hari constantly. This constitutes proper diksa, according to Srila Sridhar Maharaj, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and others.

 

 

Our question is whether he received pancaratrika diksa mantras or not. We have no objection to the history of his having received the name of Hari from Gaura Kishora. If you choose to call this diksa, then it is certainly your right to do so, but everywhere in the writings of the Gaudiya Vaishnava acaryas diksa is understood as the transmission of a pancaratrika diksa-mantra from the mouth of the guru into the ear of the disciple. Perhaps it is not so in your group, but it is very clearly presented as such in the writings of Gopala Bhatta, Jiva and Visvanatha.