The sat guru and the transcendental sound

[raga]

When you post links to the board, please do not paste in the URL with all the search engine junk etc. in. It destroys the formatting as long lines without breaks do not get cut into separate lines on many browsers. Clean it up. If you don't know how to clean it up, then "E-mail this thread" and send the short URL to your e-mail address.

 

If that's too difficult, then just use the url tag. Like this (remove spaces): "[url = http:/ /address.com/dadaczjhe34/longthing&hereitbelongs ] click here [ /url]. That will make it neat and clean: For Jagat's post, Please edit the long URL out right now, for it makes the thread practically unreadable.

 

Look at the FAQ to learn more.

 

In regards to the quote you presented, I tend to accept Advaita Prakash over Jagat's opinion if he doesn't present any arguments aside saying it is his opinion.

 

[muralidhar]

Madhava said:

<hr>

We may easily observe that the "contemplators" of this verse who are barred from Goloka are of two kinds, namely the yogis and the jnanis. The commentary goes on for a couple of paragraphs after this elaborating on the flaw in the approach of the yogis and jnanis. Thus you have taken the commentary completely out of context.

<hr>

 

This is not out of context at all. The persons engaged in impure or imperfect chanting of mantra and smaranam can be classified into two sections. Those who desire to jnana and those who want to enjoy the results of their work (karma). These two broad categorisations are epitomised by jnanis and yogis in the text.

 

Those persons whose mentality is not pure will not be able to enter into the Goloka lila. Their approach to Goloka is blocked by the mantra tridents.

 

But if someone engages in Nama-sankirtan then this benefits both the chanter and the listener, and Bhagavan in His Mercy will provide an opportunity for swift advancement.

[muralidhar]

Madhava said:

<hr>

Our question is whether he received pancaratrika diksa mantras or not. We have no objection to the history of his having received the name of Hari from Gaura Kishora. If you choose to call this diksa, then it is certainly your right to do so, but everywhere in the writings of the Gaudiya Vaishnava acaryas diksa is understood as the transmission of a pancaratrika diksa-mantra from the mouth of the guru into the ear of the disciple. Perhaps it is not so in your group, but it is very clearly presented as such in the writings of Gopala Bhatta, Jiva and Visvanatha.

<hr>

Diksa in the term used to describe the transmission of Divine Knowledge from Guru to Disciple, and this is presented both in the ancient Vedic literature and in the literature of the Goswamis and their successors.

 

Perhaps some people in some Gaudiya lineages prefer read the word Diksa as meaning initiation with the mantras that have come down to them within their lineage.

 

But my Guru Maharaj has said:

<hr>

Our guru parampara, disciplic succession, follows the ideal, not the body; it is a succession of instructing spiritual masters, not formal initiating spiritual masters. In a song about our guru parampara written by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, it is mentioned, mahaprabhu sri caitanya radha krsna nahe anya rupanuga janera jivana: the highest truth of Krsna consciousness comes down through the channel of siksa gurus, instructing spiritual masters. Those who have the standard of realization in the proper line have been accepted in the list of our disciplic succession. It is not a diksa guru parampara, a succession of formal initiating gurus. (Sri Guru and His Grace, Chapter 10)

<hr>

In Sri Guru and His Grace, chapter 9, Srila Sridhar Maharaj also says:

<hr>

In the Caitanya-caritamrta (Adi. 7.73):

 

krsna-mantra haite habe samsara mocana

krsna-nama haite pabe krsnera carana

"The Krsna gayatri mantra liberates one from repeated birth and death in this world; the holy name of Krsna gives one shelter at the lotus feet of Krsna." The gayatri mantra helps us achieve liberation, and then the mantra retires. After giving us liberation, the mantra is finished. But the name will continue all along, from the lowest to the highest. In chanting the name, there is no mention of any petition - it is an address only. We should not chant with the mentality that, "I want this." We must simply chant the name spontaneously. That will encourage good will in us. So, because the function of the mantra is limited, but the name is all-important, the nama guru will be honored first, and next, the mantra guru, and then the other Vaisnavas.

<hr>

 

 

[raga]

 

This is not out of context at all. The persons engaged in impure or imperfect chanting of mantra and smaranam can be classified into two sections. Those who desire to jnana and those who want to enjoy the results of their work (karma). These two broad categorisations are epitomised by jnanis and yogis in the text.

 

 

Smaranam is one of the nine aspects of bhakti. According to your presentation, everyone who is not a pure Vaishnava and who engages in either sravanam, kirtanam, smaranam, pada-sevanam, arcanam, vandanam, dasyam, sakhyam or atmanivedanam, should be classified as a jnani or a karmi. Is that right? How is smaranam any different from the eight other kinds of bhakti listed by Sri Prahlad in the Bhagavata?

 

If there is no problem in engaging your intellect in worshiping the Lord (as in Gita 18.70), then why should there be a problem in engaging the mind in worshiping the Lord? And if someone has an inclination to engage his mind in thinking about the beautiful pastimes of the Lord, the quintessence of spiritual life, then what could be more wonderful than this?

 

It is a fact, yes, that initially the perception of the sadhaka is not completely transcendental. But neither is it so while engaging in arcana for that matter, nor while chanting the holy names. Is it then improper to worship the deity or chant the holy names while still being tinged by material desires? I think it is quite offensive indeed, and therefore nobody should engage in sadhana-bhakti before they become pure devotees.

[muralidhar]

Madhava,

 

I feel that we need to come to some sort of conclusion of this discussion, not so much because I do not feel these issues are worth chatting about, but rather because these discussions are consuming too much of my time.

 

I am very, very busy with other things I am doing, and I really cannot spend a great deal of time on this at the moment.

 

So may I suggest that each of us make some sort of conclusive statements in regard to the issues we have discussed, and some we can each respond to those issues, and then we can withdraw from this discussion here, for the time being at least.

 

Murali

[muralidhar]

Madhava, in regard to your statement in "engaging the mind" regarding smaranam as a part of sadhana bhakti (sravanam, kirtanam, smaranam, etc..)

<hr>

Yes smaranam is an element of sadhana bhakti but a devotee should engage in genuine smaranam. And if the practitioner devotee is sometimes meditating on astakaliya lila and at other times he is fighting with his wife or worrying about money, then is this type of occasional smaranam really beneficial for the soul? My Guru Maharaj said that if Radha Govinda desire for us to have darshan of the divine lila then we can have a true EXPERIENCE of the lila, but if we desire to engage in speculative meditation upon the lila then that is counter productive.

 

I know people who are still absorbed in mundane life but who like to chat about the mood of Sri Radha and the manjaris. I know some people have not become free from their love of smoking ganja and cigarettes, and drinking beer, and enjoying lady-love, who like to talk about Rasa-katha. In all honesty let me tell you truthfully something I personally experienced myself when I first came to Vrindaban. I met some babajis who were having ecstatic Kirtan at Radha Damodar temple in Vrindaban, but when I went with them and we walked outside the gate they lit up some cigarettes. This made me start wondering about many things...

 

In Siksastakam, Mahaprabhu has said that there are no hard and fast rules for chanting; and in the discussion between Mahaprabhu and Haridas Thakur regarding the glories of the Holy Name, Haridas Thakur explains how persons make progress through the stages of Namaparadha and Namabhasa, until they can chant the Suddha Nam.

 

But in regard to smaranam, if a person is filled with mundane tendencies such as the desires for liberation, knowledge, or personal pleasure, (mukti, jnana, kama) then they will not be able to cross over those tridents that surround Goloka-mandala.

 

Murali

[theist]

So what does smaranam mean for someone like myself,a kanistha at best?I mean I can't even remember that I'm not the central enjoyer,or even that I'm not the body.

[raga]

 

Yes smaranam is an element of sadhana bhakti but a devotee should engage in genuine smaranam. And if the practitioner devotee is sometimes meditating on astakaliya lila and at other times he is fighting with his wife or worrying about money, then is this type of occasional smaranam really beneficial for the soul? My Guru Maharaj said that if Radha Govinda desire for us to have darshan of the divine lila then we can have a true EXPERIENCE of the lila, but if we desire to engage in speculative meditation upon the lila then that is counter productive.

 

 

Could you explain how occasional or incomplete devotional practice is counterproductive? I mean, this can be also applied to the other processes of devotional service. "Sometimes the practitioner is enthusiastically engaged in kirtan, but at other times he is engaged in mundane activites in forgetfulness of the Lord." So?

 

 

 

I know people who are still absorbed in mundane life but who like to chat about the mood of Sri Radha and the manjaris. I know some people have not become free from their love of smoking ganja and cigarettes, and drinking beer, and enjoying lady-love, who like to talk about Rasa-katha.

 

 

I also know such people. I also know people who drink beer and do arcana. I also know people who take acid and chant Hare Krishna on beads. I would say the pinch of attraction they do have for the Lord in whatever way is their good fortune.

 

 

 

In Siksastakam, Mahaprabhu has said that there are no hard and fast rules for chanting

 

 

No, that is not what Mahaprabhu says there. "tatrArpitA niyamitaH smarane na kAlaH" -- "In remembering them, there are no regulations on time." First of all He speaks about remembering (smaranam) of the holy names, and secondly He says there are no regulations (niyama) on proper time for chanting. There are certainly rules -- beginning with avoiding the ten offences against the holy name.

 

 

 

I met some babajis who were having ecstatic Kirtan at Radha Damodar temple in Vrindaban, but when I went with them and we walked outside the gate they lit up some cigarettes.

 

 

Certainly there are devotees with many standards out there, some of them higher and some of them lower. Anything one may find in Vraja. It is still wonderful that people engage in acts of devotion.

 

Aside this, I do not recall reading any restriction on smoking tobacco in the Hari Bhakti Vilasa or other acaryas' writings. Smoking ganja is seva-aparadha, that is known from the Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu. Of course renunciates should refrain from bodily pleasures.

 

 

 

But in regard to smaranam, if a person is filled with mundane tendencies such as the desires for liberation, knowledge, or personal pleasure, (mukti, jnana, kama) then they will not be able to cross over those tridents that surround Goloka-mandala.

 

 

Please provide some references from the Gosvami granthas where smaranam is restricted to only those who are freed from mundane attachments. Complete liberation comes at the time of svarupa-siddhi, shattering all bodily identification to pieces. Svarupa-siddhi corresponds to the sprouting of bhava-bhakti in the heart. There are innumerable references in the acaryas' writings which recommend smaranam prior to svarupa-siddhi.

[Guest guest]

 

Raga said:

"Aside this, I do not recall reading any restriction on smoking tobacco in the Hari Bhakti Vilasa "

 

 

I dont think there was any tobacco in India prior to the 17th century, was there? I mean isnt it an American plant internationalised AFTER the "discovery" of the "New World" by the latino exploreres. Raga you probably wont find any injunction against LSD either. QED.

[sha]

 

Smaranam is one of the nine aspects of bhakti.

 

 

Here is a copied message from another board regading 'Smarana'-

 

The MIND alone is the center of devotion- "AnukUlyena kRSNAnu zIlanaM bhaktiruttamA"

SMARANA practiced by MIND is the LIFE of Devotional Service. 'manera smaraNa prANa'

 

Mahaprabhu Himself mentioned about SMARANA in the second verse of Sri SIKSHASHTAKA -

 

nAmnAmakAri bahudhA nija sarva sakti

statrArpita niyamitaH "smaraNe" na kAlaH

yetAdRzI tava kRpA bhagavan mamApi

durdaivamI dRzam ihAjani nAnurAgaH

 

Mahaprabhu wanted us not only to do chanting,

but also REMEMBRANCE and there are no limitations

of time and place for the REMEMBRANCE!

 

Just as Lord Krishna said in Gita-

 

anta kale ca mAm eva

smaran muktvA kalevaram,

yah prayAti sa madbhAvaM

yAti nAstyatra saMzayaH

 

yaM yaM vApi smaran bhAvaM

tyajatyante kalevaram

taM tamevaiti kaunteya

sadA tadbhAva bhAvitaH

 

tasmAt sarveSu kAleSu

mAm anusmara yuddhya ca,

mayyarpita mano buddhir

mAme vai 'Syasy asaMzayaH

 

(Gita 8.5-7)

 

<font color="red">"And whoever, at the time of death,

leaving the body, goes forth

REMEMBERING ME ALONE,

he ATTAINS MY BEING.

There is no doubt about this."</font>

 

<font color="blue">"Whatever being a man REMEMBERS of

at the last moment when leaves his body,

THAT ALONE DOES HE ATTAIN, O Kaunteya,

BEING EVER ABSORBED IN THOUGHT THERE OF."</font>

 

<font color="red">"THEREFORE, AT ALL TIMES THINK UPON ME ONLY

and PERFORM ALL YOUR ACTIONS (including the fighting).

WITH MIND, INTELLECT AND UNDERSTANDING SET ON ME,

YOU WILL SURELY COME TO ME."</font>

 

Hari Bol!

[raga]

 

So what does smaranam mean for someone like myself,a kanistha at best?I mean I can't even remember that I'm not the central enjoyer,or even that I'm not the body.

 

 

For you smaranam means that you should try to remember the Lord in whatever way you wish and gradually become purified by chanting the holy names until your perception becomes more lucid. At that time you may begin to reflect on a particular transcendental preference that may be growing inside your heart and find appropriate guidance from a saint who will guide you forward on the path of remembering the Lord.

 

As far as actual astakaliya lila-smarana goes, it is beyond most of us. You need a qualified guru who is himself realized in the concepts of nitya-lila, who can appropriately guide you in your practice of meditation and to whom you may submit your inquiries as they arise in your heart. In the beginning there is static mantramayi-upasana which helps to gradually fix the mind in the divine realm and on the personalities in the nitya-lila. Eventually, as one becomes acquainted with the nature of nitya-lila and the services he aspires for, he may begin the dynamic svarasiki-upasana, or service in the the eternal daily pastimes of Sri Radha and Krishna.

 

In the transitional stage when the devotee begins to feel attracted to the divine pastimes of Radha and Krishna he should focus his mind in the writings of the previous acaryas which focus on describing the goal he longs for. This will help him attain unity in mood with Rupa Gosvami and others in sadhaka-deha and Rupa Manjari and others in siddha-deha, which at this point is experienced only as inner longings in the heart of the sadhaka.

 

For now, yes, we should definitely start the practice of remembering the Lord in whatever small way we can, and gradually evolve in our remembrance of Him until our vision becomes more and more lucid, and finally we will find that there is nothing but deep remembrance and longing within our heart. Soon after that the object of our remembrance becomes practical reality, the sole reality we are living in.

 

There are really no hard and fast rules on who can remember what. Each individual should reflect within himself and estimate what is appropriate for him, of course consulting sadhus in whom he has faith when in doubt. There is only one definite restriction I know of, from Sri Jiva Gosvami's Bhakti Sandarbha. He states that if the aspirant is attracted to the mood of a father, son or a servant of the Lord, or if he experiences male transformations in his senses during the contemplation of confidential pastimes, then such contemplation should be restrained from. The full passage runs as follows (Anuccheda 338):

 

<font color="darkblue">atha gokule’pi zrImad-vraja-vadhU-sahita-rAsAdi-lIlAtmakasya parama-vaiziSTyam Aha –

 

<center>vikrIDitaM vraja-vadhUbhir idaM ca viSNoH

zraddhAnvito yaH zRNuyAd atha varNayed vA |

bhaktiM parAM bhagavati parilabhya kAmaM

hRd-rogam Azv apahinoty acireNa dhIraH || [bhP 10.33.39]</center>

 

ca-kArAd anyac ca | atheti vAtha | zRNuyAd vA varNayed vA | upalakSaNaM caitad dhyAnAdeH | parAM yataH parA nAnyA kutracid vidyate tAdRzIm | hRd-rogaM kAmAdikam api zIghram eva tyajati | atra sAmAnyato’pi paramatva-siddhes tatrApi parama-zreSTha-zrI-rAdhA-saMvalita-lIlA-maya-tad-bhajanaM tu paramatamam eveti svataH sidhyati | kintu rahasya-lIlA tu pauruSa-vikAravad indriyaiH pitR-putra-dAsa-bhAvaiz ca nopAsyA svIya-bhAva-virodhAt | rahasyatvaM ca tasyAH kvacid alpAMzena kvacit tu sarvAMzeneti jJeyam |

 

The supremely excellent nature of the pastimes in Gokula in the association of the beautiful maidens of Vraja, such as the rasa-lila, is confirmed:

 

“One who faithfully hears or describes the loving sports of Sri Krishna and the young maidens of Vraja will quickly drive away the heart-disease of lust, become sober, and attain supramundane devotion of the Lord.” [bhP 10.33.39]

 

The word “ca” means “others” and “atha” means “or”. Thus “hearing” or “describing”. One meditates etc. on the Lord’s features. “Param” means “there is no such thing anywhere superior to these pastimes”. One very quickly gives up the heart-disease of lust and so on. Here the superiority is established in general. The most perfect of all is the worship of the sports ornamented with His dearmost Sri Radha. This is self-evident. However, these secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those who are in the moods of father, son and servant, for it would be contrary to their moods. Confidentiality is understood according to the partial touching or complete touching of limbs.</font>

 

In concluding, lila-smarana, though anyone who is eager for remembering the Lord's pastimes can certainly do so, should not be recommended for people who do not show a natural inclination for it.

[raga]

 

I dont think there was any tobacco in India prior to the 17th century, was there? I mean isnt it an American plant internationalised AFTER the "discovery" of the "New World" by the latino exploreres. Raga you probably wont find any injunction against LSD either. QED.

 

 

Whatever they are and were smoking aside/instead of tobacco. It is certainly not a new trend.

 

I am not in favor of smoking tobacco or whatever else, whether restricted by the scriptures or not. I do not smoke.

[raga]

 

So may I suggest that each of us make some sort of conclusive statements in regard to the issues we have discussed, and some we can each respond to those issues, and then we can withdraw from this discussion here, for the time being at least.

 

 

All right. I will not promise withdrawing from the discussion altogether if anyone else desires to discuss any relevant point, but let me try to still wind up the dialogue between the two of us. The essence of what I have presented:

 

<font color=darkred>1. Diksa means the hearing of a Krishna-mantra such as Gopala Mantra from the mouth of the sad-guru along with an appropriate explanation. For those who desire to follow the Six Gosvamis, acceptance of such diksa is required.

 

2. If someone desires to argue in favor of Bhaktisiddhanta's having received pancaratrika diksa-mantras from Gaura Kisora Baba, he should (a) present any statement from Bhaktisiddhanta himself where he claims to having received pancaratrika diksa-mantras, and (b) present any additional substantial evidence. Additionally counter-evidence cannot be refuted simply by condemning it.

 

3. Lila-smarana is not only for perfected, liberated souls who are free from material desires. It is a part of sadhana and everyone should practice remembrance of the Lord and recollection of His pastimes according to his ability and under proper guidance. By such practice the mind will become purified.</font>

 

For scriptural references on the points above, please refer to my earlier posts.

 

I am in the process of compiling a lengthy essay presenting all references to lila-smarana as a sadhana and in general on the subject matter of eligibility for raganuga bhakti. You will then find all appropriate references in one place. I will post a link here whenever I complete the work.

 

[sha]

 

Smaranam is one of the nine aspects of bhakti.

 

 

More beautiful thoughts on " Smarana" - Remembrance from another board:

 

Taken from the "The Divine Duality of Radha and Krishna", written by Barbara Stoler Miller:

 

"The importance of memory in the thought process is universally recognized in Western and Indian epistemology.

 

What I am stressing here is the aesthetics of 'memory', linked to love, as a mode of knowing within aesthetic and religious experience.

It is significant that memory (smarana) is a major epithet of the god of love (smara).

 

The association between love and memory is known as early as the ATHARVA veda, whose hymns include a love-charm in which the female speaker asks the gods to send 'memory' to make a certain man burn for her.

 

Smara and kama, in fact, seemto be the only pre-epic names of love.

 

In Sanskrit poetry an act of remembering is a conventional technique for relating the modes of frustrated and fulfilled love (vipralambha and sambhoga srngara).

 

Memory is recognized throughout Vaishnava literature as a way of KNOWING Krishna.

 

In the Bhagavatha Purana (10.32.20), when the cowherdesses accuse Him of cruelty for deserting them, Krishna answers:

 

<font color="blue">"I, the embodiment of mercy- how can I be cruel, and especially to my devotees?

No, never.

My disappearance is only a veil that I draw in order to nourish yearning and love for Me by the fire of separation.

 

As a poor man hitting by a chance on a treasure and again losing it, is constantly brooding over it,

so I wish my devotees should not for a moment forget Me."</font>

 

It is by sharing the mutual memories that Radha and Krishna have of Their original secret meeting that the audience of 'Gita Govind' learns to appreciate and understand the unique relationship of the RADHA-MADHAVA pair.`

 

Aesthetic memory breaks through the logic of every day experience- it obliterates distances, reverses chronologies, fuses what is ordinarily separate.

 

What makes Jayadeva's vision so powerful is that Krishna participates in the world of memory as subject as well as object.

 

Krishna remembers Radha in the same kind of sensual detail in which She remembers Him.

 

His memory makes Him vulnerable to Her possessive, overwhelming power as She is to His-

as He again declares His love for Her.

 

He gives no rationalization for the cruelty of His desertion because He too suffered in the fire of separation.

 

Devotion meant submission to Bhagavan in a loving relationship that was most powerful in the anguish of separation, shared by all devotees.

 

The orthodox cult was basically antithetical to Jayadeva's notion of Krishna's exclusive, erotic relationship with a single consort as the supreme expression of His love and as the MODEL FOR the relation between KRISHNA and HIS DEVOTEE."

 

Hari Bol!

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Whatever they are and were smoking aside/instead of tobacco.

 

 

Primarily they smoked ganja, which is forbidden in vaishnava scriptures.

[Guest guest]

Madhava,

 

Briefly, in regard to your comments, I would respond with the following.

 

1) Diksa is the transmission of Divya-jnana from Preceptor Guru to the disciple. Numerous examples are available in scripture to support the view that a disciple can attain Prema bhakti without having received Mantra Diksa of Gopala Mantra, Kamagayatri, etc.. Indeed apart from the examples already mentioned, of Haridas Thakur's lady disciple of Benopala, there is the example of Bilvamangala Thakur who received his realizations ... by the Kripa of Bhagavan

 

2) I will not try to argue or say that Srila Saraswati Thakur received pancaratrika diksa-mantras from his Guru, Sri Gaurkishore Babaji. Perhaps he did receive them, I will have to ask some authorties about this. But for a disciple of Srila Sridhar Maharaj such as myself it is no importance. We consider the Nama initiation to be sufficient for a soul to attain perfection; and given the facts of history I presented earlier, and the fact that Lalit Charan never said Saraswati Thakur was not a disciple, etc. etc. etc., and that Saraswati Thakur made the samadhi of Babaji Maharaj, etc. etc., I would say that we have nothing to defend in this matter. Saraswati Thakur is a disciple of Gaurkishore Babaji. That is clear.

 

3) In regard to Lila-smarana, I'll wait to see what you present before commenting.

 

sincerly,

Muralidhar

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

By the way, I don't smoke either. It's bad for your health.

[raga]

Briefly responding to your brief points:

 

 

1) Diksa is the transmission of Divya-jnana from Preceptor Guru to the disciple.

 

 

This conception is derived from a verse Jiva quotes in his Bhakti Sandarbha, the famous divyam jnanam tato dadyat verse. Sri Jiva quotes the following verses:

 

<font color="darkblue"><center>divyaM jJAnaM yato dadyAt kuryAt pApasya saGkSayam |

tasmAd dIkSeti sA proktA dezikais tattva kovidaiH ||

ato guruM praNamyaivaM sarvasvaM vinivedya ca |

gRhNIyAd vaiSNavaM mantraM dIkSA pUrvaM vidhAnataH ||</center>

"The teachers who are knowers of the truth say that since it gives (da) divine knowledge and destroys (ksi) sin it is called diksa. Therefore, paying obeisance to the guru and offering him one's all, one should receive a Vaisnava mantra diksa preceded with proper procedures."</font>

 

The he comments:

 

<font color="darkblue">divyaM jJAnaM hy atra zrImati mantre bhagavat-svarUpa-jJAnaM, tena bhagavatA sambandha-vizeSa-jJAnaM ca |

 

"Divine knowledge means here knowledge of the true nature of the Lord in the mantra and, by that, knowledge of one's own special relationship with Him." </font>

 

Though much is often drawn from the words "divya jnana" as a definition of diksa, looking at the context it is clear beyond doubt what the divya jnana means here.

 

 

 

Numerous examples are available in scripture to support the view that a disciple can attain Prema bhakti without having received Mantra Diksa of Gopala Mantra, Kamagayatri, etc..

 

 

Yes, this is certainly true. There are examples in the history. However, we are not to compose our own standards drawing from historical incidents. Rather we are to follow the standards set by those who examined what is best for us. I already presented a passage of Jiva's which declared that it is a transgression of scripture if one rejects either of the two, pancaratrika-diksa or harinama.

 

 

 

...and the fact that Lalit Charan never said Saraswati Thakur was not a disciple,

 

 

I believe I mentioned it earlier, but I know three persons to whom he said this. I'm sure there are plenty more. I told you the earliest initiations Bhaktisiddhanta gave I could track down took place in 1918, the very year when Lalita Prasad ceased to cooperate with him. You did not comment on that.

 

 

 

I would say that we have nothing to defend in this matter. Saraswati Thakur is a disciple of Gaurkishore Babaji. That is clear.

 

 

Yes, and I have nothing to object in this regard. He certainly had a guru-disciple relationship with the Baba. What I am questioning is whether he received pancaratrika diksa from him as it is described in the acaryas' writings. This is what the word "diksa" is understood to mean everywhere in the Gaudiya tradition aside your group. That's all.

 

[muralidhar]

Madhava wrote:

<hr>I told you the earliest initiations Bhaktisiddhanta gave I could track down took place in 1918, the very year when Lalita Prasad ceased to cooperate with him. You did not comment on that.

<hr>

I didn't notice that statement before. Anyhow, you are certainly wrong here. According to the book Prabhupada Srila Saraswati Thakur, the first disciples were initiated Srila Saraswati Thakur in 1905. The names are given in the book, which I unfortunately do not have here (someone borrowed it and didn't return it). But I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN OF THE DATE, 1905, AND THE NAMES OF THE DISCIPLES AND DETAILS ARE IN THAT BOOK. In fact Kunja Babu (Sri Bhakti Vilas Tirtha Maharaj) was present at the time Srila Gaurakisora Babaji entered samadhi. He was the person who brought the news to Saraswati Thakur that Babaji Maharaj had passed away the night before. Together they went to receive the Divine Form of Srila Gaurakisora Dasa Babaji and to make the samadhi. This was on 17 November 1915. Tirtha Maharaj was not initiated at that time, but took initiation soon after.

 

You say that Lalit Prashad has said Srila Saraswati Thakur was not a disciple of Srila Gaurakisora Babaji. Why didn't he make a fuss when Srila Saraswati Thakur started initiating disciples in 1905? If he didn't believe that Saraswati Thakur was genuine, why did choose to attend numerous functions organized by the disciples of Srila Sarswati Thakur. I remember reading that book and noting the dates of festivals that Lalit Prashad came to, and noting the dates. Strange behavior.

 

Madhava quoted Sri Jiva Goswami from Bhakti Sandarbha:

<hr>

"The teachers who are knowers of the truth say that since it gives (da) divine knowledge and destroys (ksi) sin it is called diksa. Therefore, paying obeisance to the guru and offering him one's all, one should receive a Vaisnava mantra preceded by diksa according to procedure."

 

The he comments:

 

divyaM jJAnaM hy atra zrImati mantre bhagavat-svarUpa-jJAnaM, tena bhagavatA sambandha-vizeSa-jJAnaM ca |

 

"Divine knowledge means here knowledge of the true nature of the Lord in the mantra and, by that, knowledge of one's own special relationship with Him."

 

Though much is often drawn from the words "divya jnana" as a definition of diksa, looking at the context it is clear beyond doubt what the divya jnana means here.

<hr>

 

Yes, but I don't see an inconsistency here. The quote says, "knowledge of the true nature of the Lord in the mantra". And my Guru Maharaj is saying that the Name in the mantra is the worshipable Entity within the mantra. When the Guru gives a disciple true understanding that the Name of Hari within the mantra is Hari Himself, then that divine transmission is Diksa.

 

Exactly.

 

[anadi]

Dear Muralidhar Prabhu,

Dandavat pranama

You are the embodiment of the wonderful devotee

Again and again my dandavat pranama.

You said

Whether a devotee receives FORMAL INITIATION with mantra (klim krishnaya govindaya gopijanaballabhaya swaha), etc..., or whether they receive simply the name of Hari from Sri Guru, (Hare Krishna, or whatever),

OBJECTION

How could be that the gopala mantra can be used as a FORMAL INITIATION.

Maybe I am wrong

but formality is there where the real substance is missing.

And the gopala mantra is transcendental.

 

I remembered the sages from Dantakaranya forest, they sung gopala mantra for thousands of years, but the result came. They had darshan with the Ishtadeva of the Mantra:

And they were given assurance to meet the Lord of their heart Krsna Govinda according their desire, and they were born as gopis.

 

DIKSA can be a formality only in a line with no substantiality.

 

On the other hand we could say, the diksa ceremony is

in a particular way anustany (formality), because diksa is a whole process

but not really anustany

because the diksa process is initiated with the diksa ceremony.

 

 

I humbly wait for your corrections

 

[raga]

 

I didn't notice that statement before. Anyhow, you are certainly wrong here. According to the book Prabhupada Srila Saraswati Thakur, the first disciples were initiated Srila Saraswati Thakur in 1905. The names are given in the book, which I unfortunately do not have here (someone borrowed it and didn't return it). But I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN OF THE DATE, 1905, AND THE NAMES OF THE DISCIPLES AND DETAILS ARE IN THAT BOOK. In fact Kunja Babu (Sri Bhakti Vilas Tirtha Maharaj) was present at the time Srila Gaurakisora Babaji entered samadhi. He was the person who brought the news to Saraswati Thakur that Babaji Maharaj had passed away the night before. Together they went to receive the Divine Form of Srila Gaurakisora Dasa Babaji and to make the samadhi. This was on 17 November 1915. Tirtha Maharaj was not initiated at that time, but took initiation soon after.

 

 

Kunja Babu (BV Tirtha) was certainly among the first ones. He is the one who brought Bhaktisiddhanta out from the forests and helped him establish the Gaudiya Matha institution. If he wasn't initiated before 1915 (when was the year of his initiation, by the way?), it appears unlikely that others were. So, I would like to see the facts. Even using ALL CAPITALS does not help, you just need to give me the names and the years of initiation.

 

I recall from my days in the Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti how it was told that Bhaktiprajnan Keshava Maharaja was the first one to receive guru-mantra from Bhaktisiddhanta. The account is also related in his biography, "Acarya Keshari", pages 31-33. There it is related how Bhaktisiddhanta first didn't give him the guru-mantra until BPK insisted to receive one. I was told (by BV Aranya Maharaja) that only after that the practice of giving guru-mantra became current in the Gaudiya Matha.

 

Interestingly, I noted that BPK received harinama from Bhaktisiddhanta in 1915, but diksa only in 1919. The biography mentions the first two lady disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta's, namely Sriyuta Sarojavasini and Priyatama devi, who were aunts of BPK. It is not specified there, though, whether they had received mantra-diksa, harinama, or indeed any initiation at all. When you do give any references about Bhaktisiddhanta's first initiates, it is important that you pay attention to whether they were initiated into diksa-mantra or harinama.

 

 

 

You say that Lalit Prashad has said Srila Saraswati Thakur was not a disciple of Srila Gaurakisora Babaji.

 

 

No. I am saying he said that Bhaktisiddhanta didn't receive pancaratrika diksa mantras from the Baba.

 

 

 

Yes, but I don't see an inconsistency here. The quote says, "knowledge of the true nature of the Lord in the mantra". And my Guru Maharaj is saying that the Name in the mantra is the worshipable Entity within the mantra. When the Guru gives a disciple true understanding that the Name of Hari within the mantra is Hari Himself, then that divine transmission is Diksa.

 

 

Why do you want to endlessly twist this around? It is very clear to any honest reader that the entire Anuccheda 283 discusses the subject matter of pancaratra, arcana and mantra-diksa. <font color="darkblue">gRhNIyAd vaiSNavaM mantraM dIkSA pUrvaM vidhAnataH -- "One should receive a Vaisnava mantra diksa preceded with proper procedures."</font> Is that so difficult to accept?

 

[Guest guest]

My dandavat pranams to the contributors of this thread which is obviously of interest and some controversy.

I just wish to throw a little curiosity in this disscussion if I may. A few simple questions to clarify who is who here and who you are all representing. Excuse me if it is already clear to most observers, but it would go a little further to understanding the overall picture, if you all could identify just exactly who and what parampara all are representing, And if they speak on behalf of the present day acharyas of your respective lines of thought and dedication, and those seniors are aware of it. Also are there senior spokespersons who could be referred to or are you just passing on what you have garnered personally. I understand most senior members of many disciplic lines would never get involved in internet dialogues unfortunately, probably due to the risk of public offence or even humiliation, I don't know, but it seems these issues always seem to result in some sort of stalemate only to be recycled further down the line. But I do think most are looking for some sort of mutual respect where all parties dignity and contribution is recognized and appreciated, or is this just an endless difference, that will never be resolved or harmonized.

The reason for my curiosity is that it appears most everyone in this topic speaks with their own degree of authority and certainty but it still remains dificult for an observer to be fully convinced about sources of information presented, as if each even cares to really consider the others point of view.

It appears relatively clear who Muralidar Prabhus' disciplic lineage is and his conviction therein, as he continues to referr to it. But I was wondering spacificly about Anadi, Sha and Raga Prabhus lines, their actual conection to them and also who you are exactly? That is your initiated names in these lines or if the names you are going under here are self titles, or internet identities, and if this is so why you don't wear your divinely guru given identities in such conversations? If this is not too forward or invasive of me to ask.

Also who everyone attributes their knowledge, realization and sentiments to? Please don't take any offence at my queries for I mean none, just curious, so that we might more fully understand the complete picture of this exchange.

Although it appears the issues brought out, from an observers point of view, to weave somewhat around the main thread many enlightening points are being revealed in the process. For this I wish to express my appreciation. Keep up the pursuit of truth in genuine honor and sincere humility.

[raga]

 

How could be that the gopala mantra can be used as a FORMAL INITIATION. Maybe I am wrong but formality is there where the real substance is missing. And the gopala mantra is transcendental.

 

DIKSA can be a formality only in a line with no substantiality.

 

 

I wish to congratulate you for your very brilliant observations here. Well done.

 

 

 

On the other hand we could say, the diksa ceremony is in a particular way anustany (formality), because diksa is a whole process but not really anustany because the diksa process is initiated with the diksa ceremony.

 

 

How does the word anustany (likely "anuSThAna", "anuSThAnika") imply formality? "anuSThAna" is translated as "carrying out", "undertaking", "religious practice". What is the origin of this term in defining a formal diksa?

 

In Tattva Sandarbha (46) I found it used as follows:

 

<font color=darkblue>bhaktiyogaH zravaNa-kIrtanAdi-lakSaNaH sAdhana-bhaktiH, na tu prema-lakSaNaH | anuSThAnaM hy upadezApekSaM prema tu tat-prasAdApekSam iti

 

"Bhakti-yoga expressed through sravana, kirtana and so forth, lacking the characteristics of prema, is sadhana bhakti. Practice (anuSThAnaM) is that which depends on proper instructions, and prema is that which depends on the Lord's grace."</font>

 

This stanza actually defines the kind of bhakti referred to in an earlier verse, but conveys the point alone in this context. Here the word "anuSThAna" is used to indicate "sAdhana". Baladeva comments: anuSThAnaM kRti-sAdhyam -- "anuSThAna brings about sAdhya."

 

Aside this, it only appears in the Sat Sandarbhas as a general expression of doing something, the kind of undertaking in question being defined by another word in the passage. In fact, you will often find the expression "bhakti-anusthana", engaging in acts of devotion, there.

[raga]

Greetings Curious,

 

 

Excuse me if it is already clear to most observers, but it would go a little further to understanding the overall picture, if you all could identify just exactly who and what parampara all are representing, And if they speak on behalf of the present day acharyas of your respective lines of thought and dedication, and those seniors are aware of it. Also are there senior spokespersons who could be referred to or are you just passing on what you have garnered personally.

 

 

I am personally initiated by Pandit Ananta Das Babaji, the present Mahant of Radha Kund, descending in the guru-pranali of Jahnava Mata and Dhananjaya Pandit. You will find my guru-given name and links to further information on my background by viewing my member identity. As of yet, I have not written an autobiography, but you can always contact me and ask whatever you feel may be of concern.

 

And yes, my diksa-guru is aware of my devotional engagements. He instructed me to go on with my bhakti pracara (preaching of bhakti). Of course I do not send a carbon copy of every text I write to him, just as I also do not record every conversation I have and send tapes to him. I believe he has much more important things to do. If you feel there is something particularly unacceptable I have said, please do first contact me to sort it out, and if we do not reach any conclusion on the subject matter, of course you may also inquire from him about the matter.

 

As you may have noted, I am not here on a bigoted mission to preach a particular view in exclusion of everything else. Rather, I am here as a person trying to engage in a meaningful dialogue with people from various backgrounds. I have gained many valuable thoughts from the writings of the contributors in this forum although I may not agree with the entirety of their conceptions. I must particularly extend my gratitude to Jagat and JNDas who have presented many interesting insights, and also my thanks to everyone else, such as Anadi, Murali, Ram, Theist and others who have engaged me in meaningful dialogues and acted as an inspiration for me to deepen my study of bhakti-sastras.

 

When I present definite views, you will find that my writings are accompanied by appropriate references from the scriptures. Aside this, I do not make definite claims. Also, I cannot say that I represent the conceptions of Ananta Dasji. In fact, I think it would be foolish if I began to present his conceptions as definite in a forum where there are people from various backgrounds. Those who have faith in him may inquire from me in private about his definite views or write in an appropriate conference, but here I prefer to base my presentation on the writings of commonly accepted Gaudiya predecessors such as the Six Gosvamis, Narottama, Visvanatha and Baladeva -- much of whose teachings I have of course learned from my revered diksa-guru and other senior Vaishnavas.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the info.Raga or Madhavananda Prabhu. That helps to dissipate some of the curiosity. Was still wondering if you may have had prior formal connections before taking initiation to Ananta das Babaji and what lead you to choose this line of devotion? Excuse the probing. I can comunicate otherwise if you are not comfortable with such queries.

Curiosity waning das.

(I'm not even Their object let alone the Subject)

Just a little shy and probably more than a little ignorant to enter such delicate exchanges of such honorable and dignified personalities.