The sat guru and the transcendental sound

[raga]

 

I can comunicate otherwise if you are not comfortable with such queries.

Curiosity waning das.

 

 

No problem. I am comfortable here.

 

 

 

Was still wondering if you may have had prior formal connections before taking initiation to Ananta das Babaji and what lead you to choose this line of devotion?

 

 

The first connection I had was with Sri Harinama itself which appeared from within. This still remains a great mystery to me. I became attracted to meditating on the Hare Krishna mantra and did it on occasion, without beads of course since I had not been in contact with any devotees prior to that. Whenever I used to sit in a bus, I'd close my eyes and meditate on the Maha-mantra. This gave me immense happiness.

 

Soon after this I came in touch with local people of ISKCON and joined the ashram, where I spent some five years preaching and distributing books. Over the years I spent there, I received both harinama and mantra-diksa from an ISKCON guru. However, at one point in time, as I traveled with the guru as his personal servant, I became rather dissatisfied and even disgusted with the level of his devotional standard and his neglect of the principles of bhakti. I reported this to the GBC in a lengthy document, and also others asked about it. Eventually the document I had prepared somehow leaked to the internet. Needless to say, I did not become very popular after that. I was practically excommunicated by the fanatical attitudes of the devotees, particularly those who were also disciples of my back then guru. Not that I'd have had much interest in spending my time there any longer, though.

 

I had been trying to deepen my spiritual practice for some time already as I had been reading some of the books of the Gosvamis and Narottama Das Thakura. Eventually I took shelter of a guru in the Gaudiya Math, but later left in disgust as I observed the heinous critique leveled from this group towards other Vaishnavas, particularly those in the classical Gaudiya lineages. By then I was already rather acquainted with the tradition as I had deeply examined the critique it was subjected to by the leaders of this group. The months following these discoveries were time of deep introspection, prayer and study, which eventually led me to take shelter of Pandit Sri Ananta Das Ji.

[anadi]

Dandavat pranama dear Madhavananda Prabhu

You said

At any rate, Haridas did not give diksa to the prostitute. There is no restriction over WHO CAN GIVE harinam to others.

 

OBJECTION

 

I don t know, is it really so?

When I, a low and rascal person, with no transcendental realization,

give somebody tulasi beads and we chant together the maha mantra,

is that giving harinama?

 

"The mind of the harlot was changed by chanting the Holy Name all night IN THE COMPANY of Thakur Haridas. She now fell prostrate at the Feet of Thakur Haridas and confessed"

 

The Holy Name has to be heard with reverence from the lips of a PURE DEVOTEE. The Holy Name has TO BE RECEIVED as a Sacrament from a pure devotee by complete submission at his feet.

 

Can you give some scriptural examples that

There is no restriction over WHO CAN GIVE harinam to others?

 

Dandavat pranama

 

 

 

It is curious, but S.B.Madhava Maharaja translated the word anusthani as formality,

in that context.

 

 

[raga]

 

When I, a low and rascal person, with no transcendental realization,

give somebody tulasi beads and we chant together the maha mantra,

is that giving harinama?

 

 

Whether you are giving a tulasi-mala or not, you are advising people to chant the maha-mantra, is that not so? I believe that is one of the most integral aspects of Mahaprabhu's movement, inasmuch as its preaching aspect is concerned.

 

Yes, it may be that Harinama is not fully manifesting in your lips, but regardless of this we still advise everyone who is interested in the matter of chanting the holy names. Of course the chanting of Harinama will be perfected in the association of great saintly devotees, I have no objection to that.

 

 

 

Can you give some scriptural examples that

There is no restriction over WHO CAN GIVE harinam to others?

 

 

Apparently here you refer to the ceremony of giving Harinama to others along with a tulasi-mala and appropriate instructions, since otherwise, whenever we speak the Harinama, we are giving it to others. I am certain we have all given Harinama to hundreds if not thousands and thousands in this way. Returning to the subject matter of examining the qualification for the ceremony of giving Harinama, would you like to present any scriptural references on such a ceremony?

[kailasa]

**Lord Caitanya expanse himself in Radha and later His again "stay" as Lord Caitanya.

 

Lord Caitanya God. He is expansion. He is avatara. He is sakti. He is pure devotee or He sourse all jiva tattva.

 

God enjoys is boundless, distributing itself as expansion, avatara, sakti, jiva tattva. God enjoys in many roles, in many characters.

 

Radha expansion Krisna or Lord Caitanya. "...Radharani, the supermost beautiful creation of the Lord." Radha is the God as energy or what the God owns. Radha the God means - that God not want all will be executed.

 

"Whatever we see is made up of various energies of God. In the Upaniсads it is said, parasya-saktir vividhaiva sruyate: “The Supreme Absolute Truth has many varieties of energies.” And these energies are acting so nicely that it appears they are working automatically (svabhaviki jnana-bala-kriya ca). For example, we have all seen a blooming flower. We may think that it has automatically blossomed and become so beautiful. But no, the material energy of God is acting."

 

"As far as the beauty of the Lord is concerned, He has some special features that distinguish Him from all other living beings, and over and above that He has some special attractive beautiful features by which He attracts the mind of even Radharani, the supermost beautiful creation of the Lord. He is known, therefore, as Madana-mohana, or one who attracts the mind of even Cupid. Srila Jiva Gosvami Prabhu has scrutinizingly analyzed other transcendental qualities of the Lord and affirms that Lord Sri Krsna is the Absolute Supreme Personality of Godhead (Parabrahman). "

 

"This brings up the question of who Radharani is and what Radha-Krisna is. Actually Radha-Krisna is the exchange of love. This is not ordinary love; Krisna has immense potencies, of which three are principal: internal, external and marginal. In the internal potency there are three divisions: samvit, hladini and sandhini. The hladinй potency is the pleasure potency. All living entities have this pleasure-seeking potency, for all beings are trying to have pleasure. This is the very nature of the living entity. "

 

"In order to avoid such errors, we should understand what Radha-Krisna actually is. Radha and Krisna display their pastimes through Krisna internal energy. The pleasure potency of Krisna internal energy is a most difficult subject matter, and unless one understands what Krisna is, he cannot understand it."

 

"The object of Krisna pleasure potency is Radharani, and He exhibits His potency or His energy as Radharani and then engages in loving affairs with Her."

 

"It is not that Radharani is separate from Krisna. Radharani is also Krisna, for there is no difference between the energy and the energetic. Without energy, there is no meaning to the energetic, and without the energetic, there is no energy. Similarly, without Radha there is no meaning to Krisna, and without Krisna, there is no meaning to Radha. Because of this, the Vaisnava philosophy first of all pays obeisances to and worships the internal pleasure potency of the Supreme Lord. Thus the Lord and His potency are always referred to as Radha-Krisna. "

 

"Radha and Krisna are one, and when Krisna desires to enjoy pleasure, He manifests Himself as Radharani. The spiritual exchange of love between Radha and Krisna is the actual display of the internal pleasure potency of Krisna. Although we speak of “when” Krisna desires, just when He did desire we cannot say. We only speak in this way because in conditional life we take it that everything has a beginning; however, in the absolute or spiritual life there is neither beginning nor end. Yet in order to understand that Radha and Krisna are one and that They also become divided, the question “When?” automatically comes to mind. When Krisna desired to enjoy His pleasure potency, He manifested Himself in the separate form of Radharani, and when He wanted to understand Himself through the agency of Radha, He united with Radharani, and that unification is called Lord Caitanya."

 

"Again Lord Caitanya joined the two into one. Caitanyakhyaа prakaцam adhunд. That one means Krisna in the ecstasy of Radha. Sometimes Krisna is in ecstasy of Radha. Sometimes Radha is in ecstasy of Krisna. This is going on. But the whole thing is Radha and Krisna means the one, the Supreme."

 

**Lord Krsna IS THE RESERVOIR of transcendental loving transactions with Srimati Radharani.

 

LORD KRISNA is the RESERVOIR of transcendental loving transactions with Srimati Radharani. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

**Radharani felt more transcendental pleasure in the company of Krsna than He could understand without taking Her position, but for Sri Krsna to enjoy in the position of Srimati Radharani was impossible because that position was completely foreign to Him.

 

Because Krisna the God. The God is independent completely. But Radha that energy, the energy always depends on a source. Therefore emotions Radharani are stronger than emotions Krisna.

( Radharani felt more transcendental pleasure )

 

**Would you like to read something about the gayatri mantra

 

Parampara gives a lot of knowledge. Secret aspect parampara it Krisna lila. Radharani heads all devoted service. Nobody can serve to the God directly, except for her. But secret aspect Krisna lila it Caitanya lila.

 

"Everything is explained in Bhagavad-gita. Therefore, to learn how to become free from the miserable condition of material existence, Bhagavad-gita As It Is is the preliminary study. Then, if one understands Bhagavad-gita, one can proceed to Srimad-Bhagavatam, and if one advances further, one may study Caitanya-caritamrta. We are therefore presenting these invaluable books to the whole world so that people may study them and be happy, being delivered from miserable conditional life."

 

"Actually, the Caitanya-caritamrta is not intended for the novice, for it is the postgraduate study of spiritual knowledge. Ideally, one begins with the Bhagavad-gita and advances through Srimad-Bhagavatam to the Caitanya-caritamrta. Although all these great scriptures are on the same absolute level, for the sake of comparative study the Caitanya-caritamrta is considered to be on the highest platform. "

 

"In Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Caitanya-caritamrta, or any Vedic literature or any other literature in any other religion, the same fact is presented: God is the proprietor. God is the only friend. If you understand this, then you’ll have peace. This is the peace formula. " /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

"Conjugal love is divided into two portions: vipralambha, or conjugal love in separation, and sambhoga, or conjugal love in direct contact.

 

"There is no difference between thinking of Krsna and associating with Him. Rather, vipralambha-seva, thinking of Krsna in separation, as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu did, is far better than serving Krsna directly.

 

"Lord Caitanya taught people in general the method of vipralambha-seva, which is the method of rendering service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the feeling of separation. The six Gosvamis also taught worship of Krsna in the feeling of the gopis in separation. The prayers of Srinivasacarya about the Gosvamis explain these matters very clearly. Srinivasacarya said that the Gosvamis were always absorbed in the ocean of transcendental feelings in the mood of the gopis. When they lived in Vrndavana they were searching for Krsna, crying, “Where are You, Krsna? O gopis, where are You? Where are You, Srimati Radharani?” They never said, “We have now seen Radha and Krsna, and therefore our mission is fulfilled.” Their mission remained always unfulfilled; they never met Radha and Krsna.

 

"So Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s teaching is that vipralambha-seva. By His practical life.

 

"Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu taught us this method of worship in separation, vipralambha-seva. Not that “Oh, I have seen yesterday. Last night, I have seen Krsna. He was snatching my cloth.”

 

* * *

 

"Real Caitanya Mahaprabhu sampradaya is that he should be feeling like Caitanya Mahaprabhu, separation.

Not sambhoga. Vipralambha. Vipralambha-seva:

 

- “Oh, I am so wretched, I could not serve Krsna. How I can see Krsna? It is not possible.” In this way.

 

That is the teaching of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

-“But even though I do not see Him, neither it is possible for me to see Him...” Means: “What I am? I am insignificant person. Why Krsna come and see me?”

 

This is right.

 

-“Why shall I aspire after seeing Krsna? What qualification I have got?” This is bhajana.

 

This is bhajana.

 

-Why should I be proud that “Now I shall see Krsna”? What I am? That is the teaching of Caitanya Mahдprabhu. ... “Without giving me audience, You kill me, You break my heart; still, You are my Lord, You are my worshipable Lord, nobody else.” This is love.

 

This is love.

 

- (Bengali) ... “Krsna may not come. I may not see Krsna for thousands and thousands of lives. I may rot in the hellish condition of life for many, many births. That doesn’t matter. Still, I cannot give up Krsna consciousness.”

 

This is required.

 

- I may be sent to hell, heaven; it doesn’t matter. What qualification I have got that I want to see back to home, back to Godhead? It is not so easy thing. So why should I be sorry for that? I should be happy even in the hell simply by thinking of Krsna. That is wanted. That is wanted.

 

That is Krsna consciousness.

 

So here is the example.

 

Tears by force are coming out: “Oh, Krsna is going away.” At the same time, they want to check: “There may not be any inauspicity for Krsna.” They’re thinking Krsna, for Krsna, not for personal self. “Oh, I am now crying. I have become very much fortunate. I am crying for Krsna.” No. “My crying will create inauspicity for Krsna, I must check it.”

 

This is Krsna consciousness.

 

* * *

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

SBT sings: “My dear Lord, whatever I have—even my mind, the center of all material necessities. namely my home, my body and whatever I have in connection with this body—I now surrender unto You. You are now completely independent to act however You like. If You like, You can kill me, and if You like, You can save me. In any case, I am Your eternal servant, and You have every right to do whatever You like.”

 

“Because of my past fruitive activities, I have now fallen into an ocean of nescience. I cannot find any means to get out of this great ocean, which is indeed like an ocean of poison. We are trying to be happy through sense enjoyment, but actually that so-called enjoyment is like food that is too hot and causes burning in the heart. I feel a burning sensation constantly, day and night, and thus my mind cannot find satisfaction.”

 

Narottama dT has sung: “My Lord, I have simply wasted my life. Having obtained the human body, I have neglected to worship Your Lordship, and therefore I have willingly drunk poison.”

 

Narottama dT :“I have given up the pure status of consciousness because I wanted to enjoy in the temporary, material manifestation; therefore I have been entangled in the network of actions and reactions.”

 

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti offers his good counsel to the interested Vaisnavas when he says that they should not be interested in hearing only about the Lord’s activities (like rasa lila), but must be keenly interested in His pastimes in His features of the purusavataras in connection with saсti-tattva, creational functions...

 

“I offer my respectful obeisances unto the six Gosvamis, ... who are very expert in scrutinizingly studying all the revealed scriptures with the aim of establishing eternal religious principles for the benefit of all human beings. Thus they are honored all over the three worlds, and they are worth taking shelter of because they are absorbed in the mood of the gopis and are engaged in the transcendental loving service of Radha and Krsna.”

 

"siddha-deha. Where is siddha? And siddha-deha means there is no more any material lusty desires. That is siddha-deha. ...Siddha body means .... All material desires, zero. That is siddha body. So therefore it is very confidential.

 

"Ramananda Raya replied: “I request that You not try to hide Yourself. I understand that You have accepted the complexion and mode of thinking of Srimati Radharani and that You are trying to understand Yourself from the viewpoint of Radharani. You have actually advented Yourself to take this point of view. Although You incarnate mainly to understand Your own self, You are at the same time distributing love of Krsna to the world. Now You have personally come here to deliver me. Please don’t try to deceive me, I beg You. It is not good for You.”

Being very satisfied, Lord Caitanya smiled and showed Ramananda His real form as the combination of Sri Radha and Krsna. Thus Lord Caitanya was Sri Krsna Himself with the external features of Srimati Radharani. His transcendental ability to become two and then to become one again was revealed to Ramananda Raya. Those who are fortunate enough to understand Lord Caitanya as well as the Vrndavana pastimes of Radha and Krsna can be able, by the mercy of Sri Rupa Gosvami, to know about the real identity of Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

"Upon seeing this unique feature of Lord Caitanya, Ramananda Raya fainted and fell on the floor. Lord Caitanya then touched him, and he came to his senses. Ramananda Raya was then surprised to see Lord Caitanya again in His mendicant dress. Lord Caitanya embraced and pacified him and informed him that he was the only one to have seen this form. “Because you have understood the purpose of My incarnation, you are privileged to have seen this particular feature of My personality,” the Lord said. “My dear Ramananda, I am not a different person with a fair complexion known as Gaurapurusa. I am the selfsame Krsna the son of Maharaja Nanda, and due to contact with the body of Srimati Radharani I have now assumed this form. Srimati Radharani does not touch anyone but Krsna; therefore She has influenced Me with Her complexion, mind and words. In this way I am just trying to understand the transcendental flavor of Her relationship with Krsna.

 

The fact is that both Krsna and Lord Caitanya are the original Personality of Godhead. No one should try to eliminate Lord Caitanya from Sri Krsna. In His form of Sri Krsna, He is the supreme enjoyer, and in His form of Lord Caitanya, He is the supreme enjoyed. No one can be more superexcellently attractive than Sri Krsna, and but for Sri Krsna, no one can enjoy the supreme form of devotion, Srimati Radharani.

[anadi]

When I, a low and rascal person, with no transcendental realization,

give somebody tulasi beads and we chant together the maha mantra,

is that giving harinama?

 

*****************************************************

Returning to the subject matter of examining the qualification for the ceremony of giving Harinama, would you like to present any scriptural references on such a ceremony?

*****************************************************

 

Ok, some evidence would be

The different types of kanishta adhikari generally utter

nama-aparadha, or at most nama-abhasa; they do not utter transcendental (pure) nama

when they say maha mantra.

So they generally give nama-aparadha, or at most nama-abhasa,

They cannot give harinama, which is transcendental

 

The madyama- adhikari utter nama-abhasa, they do not utter

transcendental pure nama.

 

A madyama-uttama adhikari maybe sometimes utters a pure transcendental name.

So a madyama- adhikari might give harinama, but this is not sure

 

Only an uttama adhikari, a pure devotte of the Lord,

utters the trancendental nama.

So if one wants to be sure one have to take harinama from the transcendental source.

 

Maybe,

The ceremony of giving harinama shoould not be a formality

This is magic. This is real magic

The more you hear from the transcendental source

the more the magic of maya lose its power.

 

My humble dandavat pranama,

wonderful Madhavaananda Prabu

 

 

 

[raga]

 

Ok, some evidence would be

The different types of kanishta adhikari generally utter

nama-aparadha, or at most nama-abhasa; they do not utter transcendental (pure) nama

when they say maha mantra.

So they generally give nama-aparadha, or at most nama-abhasa,

They cannot give harinama, which is transcendental

 

 

Srila Rupa Gosvamipad says in the fifth verse of Sri Upadesamrita: kRSNeti yasya giri taM manasAdriyeta -- "He in whose speech the name 'Krishna' appears should be honored within one's mind." The first part of the verse speaks about a kanistha-adhikari.

 

So certainly a kanistha-adhikari can also chant the name of Krishna. The difference is in purity -- it is not suddha-nama he utters. Certainly it is still auspicious, and anyone who hears the Harinama will be blessed. For all I can guess, for many many years I only heard the Harinama from sources less than uttama bhagavata. Nevertheless it greatly helped me to take up the path of bhakti and evolve somewhat closer to a proper conception.

 

As for Harinama's being transcendental depending on its source, it is well known that namabhasa will easily give mukti. If something can easily give mukti it is certainly transcendental. It may not be filled with prema but it is certainly transcendental. Aside this, Harinama is zuddhaH nitya-muktaH, pure and eternally liberated. Consequently if Harinama so desires, it can appear in the heart of a sincere hearer even if heard from an impure source. Of course a proper source should nevertheless be sought.

 

 

 

The madyama- adhikari utter nama-abhasa, they do not utter

transcendental pure nama.

 

 

I believe I asked about this earlier already, but what is the source for the division kanistha = namaparadha / madhyama = namabhasa / uttama = suddhanama? I do not recall ever reading such a division.

 

 

 

A madyama-uttama adhikari maybe sometimes utters a pure transcendental name.

So a madyama- adhikari might give harinama, but this is not sure

 

 

Do you know of the origin of the double threefold division of adhikaras? kanistha-madhyama, madhyama-uttama and so forth, do you know who first taught this? Do you have any scriptural reference for this additional division?

 

 

 

Only an uttama adhikari, a pure devotte of the Lord,

utters the trancendental nama.

So if one wants to be sure one have to take harinama from the transcendental source.

 

 

As we meet with different devotees, we will inevitably hear the Harinama from their mouths. As we will meet different grades of devotees, so we will be exposed to Harinama chanted with varying attachments. It is not like diksa-mantra which you only hear from one source, not from here and there -- Harinama you will hear from everywhere!

 

Rather than considering the source of the Harinama, though that too is a valid consideration, I would place emphasis on developing a proper conception of Harinama, for that only leads to the appearance of suddha-nama on the tongue as the aspirant chants the holy name with an appropriate bhava. For attaining this, as we have already discussed, meditating on the diksa-mantras is essential.

[theist]

Raga said:"Rather than considering the source of the Harinama, though that too is a valid consideration, I would place emphasis on developing a proper conception of Harinama, for that only leads to the appearance of suddha-nama on the tongue as the aspirant chants the holy name with an appropriate bhava. For attaining this, as we have already discussed, meditating on the diksa-mantras is essential."

 

Raga,

 

The sentence that I marked as bold is one I have a qustion on.I can understand the concept successive initiations into more and more intimate pastimes with Krsna.Formal or not I can see that happening even in Goloka.Those initiations being a drawing into a confidence by those already in that confidential position.Of course I may be expanding the definitions of intiation unnecessarily beyond what is being discussed.

 

But why consider diksa mantra's to be essential for attaining suddha-nama,apart from the Name, when the Name is the quintessential ingredient in the diksa-mantra?

 

I don't think this is twisting.

 

Hare Krsna

[anadi]

Dandavat Pranama Kailasa Prabhu

 

 

 

Let s see a verse from CC Madhya 24.313

 

Aham vedmi shuko vetti

Vyaso vetti na vetti va

Bhaktya bhagavatam grahyam

Na buddhya na ca tikaya

 

Lord Siva said: I may know; Sukadeva Gosvami (the son of Vyasadeva) may know,

And Vyasadeva may, or may not know the Srimad Bhagavatam.

On the whole, Srimad Bhagavatam can be learned only through bhakti

Not by material intelligence Speculative methods or Imaginary commentaries.

 

This verse has been spoken by Sankara. Who is He?

Vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh. He is the supreme Vaisnava (bhakta)

 

Vyasadeva has written Srimad Bhagavatam and he has seen it in trance

But Sankara says it is not certain whether he knows it or not.

Actually he knows half. How?

He is in the category of Krsna, saktiman-tattva. Meaning? He is the object of prema.

 

Sankara is bhakta, and is in the category of sakti-tattva which is ashraya tattva.

Meaning? He is the container of prema.

That means Sankara is in the Line of Srimati Radhika (the embodiment of ashraya tattva)

Sukadeva is the parrot of Srimati Radhika (in Krsna lila) so also in Her line.

 

Anyone who is in the line of Srimati Radhika can know Srimad Bhagavatam.

But Krsna Himself cannot know it.

That is why He comes to this world to learn in the form of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

When He was initiated by Vishakha (as Ramananda Raya) He came to know.

After that in Gambira, in the mood of Radhika, He was tasting Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

What is Srimad Bhagavatam?

Nothing, but the internal, intrinsic mood of Radhika.

It is the glorification of Radhika, not the glorification of Krsna.

Vande nanda vraja strinam

Pada renum abhiksanashah SB 10.47.63

I repeatedly offer my respects to the dust from the feet of the women

Of Nanda Maharaja s cowheard village.

 

The commentary of the verse is from the book

Secret Truths of the Bhagavatam from Om Visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja.

 

So what is gaura vani? I can remember, Rupa Gosvami said in Sri Vidagda Madhava that He came to give manjari bhava, the service of Srimati Radhika as Her confidential maidservant?

And Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada?

Namaste sarasvate deve gaura vani pracarine

Yes He would have preached extensively gaura vani,

That is why he translated Sri Caitanya Caritamrita, everyghing is there.

But as he said this is post graduate. And his students?

Maybe one should first learn by heart Sri Upadeshamrita, Sri Manah Shiksha, Sri Shikshaashtakam,

and hear Srimad Bhagavatam from the bhagavat in the line of Sukadeva Gosvami, in the line of Srimati Radhika.

And some realization will come.

 

Dandavat pranama

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

It is not like diksa-mantra which you only hear from one source, not from here and there -- Harinama you will hear from everywhere!

 

 

I think the use of the word "harinama" in this discussion is different by each person, thus there really is no communication. In Gaudiya Matha lines, Harinama is considered a diksha, as is mantra diksha. Whereas you are using it as just hearing a sound, like listening to a bhajan cassette or something. When each side holds a different meaning to the word,there is no point communicating with those words. You will write something, and we will read it as something else; we will write something, you will read it as something else.

 

 

If someone accidentally hears a "diksha-mantra" playing on a loud speaker, are they initiated? Of course not. Initiation, either harinama-diksha, or mantra-diksha, has nothing to do with hearing the mantra. It has everything to do with the guru accepting and blessing the disciple (which automatically plants the seed in his heart). A deaf man can receive diksha as well by the blessings of the guru, despite not hearing anything.

 

Thus simply hearing someone chant harinama while walking by is not harinama-diksha, nor is hearing a mantra necessarilly diksha.

[raga]

 

I think the use of the word "harinama" in this discussion is different by each person, thus there really is no communication. In Gaudiya Matha lines, Harinama is considered a diksha, as is mantra diksha. Whereas you are using it as just hearing a sound, like listening to a bhajan cassette or something. When each side holds a different meaning to the word,there is no point communicating with those words. You will write something, and we will read it as something else; we will write something, you will read it as something else.

 

 

No, JNDas Ji, I do know full well what Anadi Ji is speaking about, he speaks about the ceremony of giving harinama. If you read my earlier posts in this thread you will note me mentioning the ceremony of giving Harinama.

 

The very point I am making is exactly that the only difference between the ceremony of hearing Harinama and hearing Harinama from the lips of any sadhu is that in the first, a bondage of allegiance is established. Otherwise the experience of hearing Harinama remains the same.

 

 

 

If someone accidentally hears a "diksha-mantra" playing on a loud speaker, are they initiated? Of course not. Initiation, either harinama-diksha, or mantra-diksha, has nothing to do with hearing the mantra. It has everything to do with the guru accepting and blessing the disciple (which automatically plants the seed in his heart).

 

 

Though I agree with the basic point you are making, it is not a fact that hearing the mantra has nothing to do with initiation. Otherwise, why would it be called mantra-diksa?

 

A significant difference between the ceremony of giving Harinama and the ceremony of giving diksa-mantras and subsequent possibilities of exposure for them is indeed in the fact that Harinama you will hear anywhere, here and there, from various saints, whereas diksa-mantras you will only hear from one saint. Therefore there is only one diksa-guru, not many.

 

[anadi]

My dandavat pranama

 

please advise me on the proper conception of harinama.

please give some sources.

 

dandavat pranama

[raga]

 

For attaining this [suddha-nama], as we have already discussed, meditating on the diksa-mantras is essential."

 

Raga,

 

The sentence that I marked as bold is one I have a qustion on.I can understand the concept successive initiations into more and more intimate pastimes with Krsna.Formal or not I can see that happening even in Goloka.Those initiations being a drawing into a confidence by those already in that confidential position.Of course I may be expanding the definitions of intiation unnecessarily beyond what is being discussed.

 

But why consider diksa mantra's to be essential for attaining suddha-nama,apart from the Name, when the Name is the quintessential ingredient in the diksa-mantra?

 

I don't think this is twisting.

 

 

It is not twisting. It is a very intelligent question. The answer lies in a passage from Jiva's Bhakti Sandarbha I quoted earlier in this thread.

 

<font color="darkblue">divyaM jJAnaM hy atra zrImati mantre bhagavat-svarUpa-jJAnaM, tena bhagavatA sambandha-vizeSa-jJAnaM ca |

 

"Divine knowledge means here knowledge of the true nature of the Lord in the mantra and, by that, knowledge of one's own special relationship with Him."</font color>

 

The guru-given mantra contains specific wisdom on the aspirant's special relationship with the Lord in His particular, special form. The very purpose of mantra-diksa is to eventually focus the awareness of the initiate to a particular form of the Lord and to establish him into a particular relationship with Him. These two essential inner ingredients substantially contribute to our attaining suddha-nama.

 

Let us now try to properly understand the concept of suddha-nama. Suddha-nama manifests on the tongue of a person who approaches the Lord with an appropriate intense feeling. If the aspirant is not established in proper awareness, there is no possibility of his attaining suddha-nama. Even if free from aparadha, his chanting will be nama-abhasa, a reflection of the holy name, since the chanting lacks the essential ingredient of visesa-sambandha, a particular relationship with appropriate feelings.

 

Then how is the diksa-mantra any different from Harinama itself? In a gayatri-mantra, such as the kama-gayatri, the names of the Lord are in the dative case (kRSNAya, "unto Krishna"), preceded by the kama-bija and surrounded by additional indicators, such as vidmahe, which focuses the initiate's awareness in a particular bhagavat-svarUpa, dhImahI, which plunges the initiate into meditation on the bhagavat-svarUpa, and finally pracodayAt, which infuses sphUrti (manifestation) of the mantra-devata in the heart. The guru-given diksa-mantras are very powerful and particularly befitting for establishing the initiate into a particular mood of worship, being established in which he can then joyfully plunge himself into the nectarine waves of Harinama.

[raga]

 

please advise me on the proper conception of harinama.

please give some sources.

 

 

I have collected numerous references and some commentaries on the Harinama Maha-mantra for the delight of devotees who wish to enter deeper into the mysteries of the holy name. You can read them here.

[Guest guest]

Raga Prabhu

Very clear and informative, articulately spoken.

My only gripe is that I'm having some difficuly with hyperlinks and can't get to the site you linked us to, if you don't give addresses I can't get into these references at times, whereas with the addresses to sites I can still copy and paste them to get there. I understand you'd prefer not to give addresses ,but untill I get this problem ironed out I can't follow your links. Is this last link to your own site?

[raga]

Here is the full URL. Not that I tried to hide it, just trying to keep things short. Anyhow, I guess this will fit in without messing up the board layout.

 

http://www.raganuga.com/literature/authors/madhava/maha-mantra-references.pdf

 

In the future if by chance you can't follow some link, you can always view the source code of the page. For example in Internet Explorer you would right click on the page, then select "View Source". Then click CTRL+F and enter the name of the link, in this case "You can read them here". You will find the following html code:

 

 

< a href="http://www.raganuga.com/literature/authors/madhava/maha-mantra-references.pdf" target="_blank" >You can read them here.< /a>

 

 

Another option is to right text and select "Copy Shortcut" and then paste the address into another browser window.

[muralidhar]

<hr>

<blockquote>

Madhava wrote:

Why do you want to endlessly twist this around? It is very clear to any honest reader that the entire Anuccheda 283 discusses the subject matter of pancaratra, arcana and mantra-diksa. gRhNIyAd vaiSNavaM mantraM dIkSA pUrvaM vidhAnataH -- "One should receive a Vaisnava mantra diksa preceded with proper procedures." Is that so difficult to accept?

</blockquote>

<hr>

I am not being argumentative. Simply put, I have a different understanding from you about what is being expressed here by Sri Jiva Goswami. The fact of the matter is that at the time of initiation a new devotee is just that - a new devotee. At initiation a devotee begins serious practice of sadhana, but that devotee has many lessons to learn before they reach perfection. This is most clearly seen in Brhad Bhagavatamrtam, where we see the gradual growth of Gopakumar's understanding.

 

It is not wrong to say that receiving Diksa can sometimes be a formal ceremony. At the time of initiation, the devotee may not clearly understand the ontological differences between Shiva and Vishnu, and Vishnu and Sri Krishna. This is a fact. The new devotee may know some philosophy, but deep within his heart he may still be aspiring for liberation, sensual pleasure, mystic powers, etc. In that primary stage of spiritual realization, the devotee may in fact have a misconceived understanding of Krishna. He may be thinking of Krishna, but he might see Krishna in terms of Krishna being "the giver of liberation" or "the person who will make me happy". Therefore the image of God this neophyte devotee adores is somewhat like Shiva, or some other Deva. In Brhad Bhagavatamrtam we see that at different times Gopakumar tries to picture Narayana or Sri Rama, and other forms of the Lord, as his istadeva. Gopakumar is making progress, but in his early stages of practice he has not yet attained clear Krishna Consciousness.

Srila Sridhar Maharaj said:

Jiva Goswami has written that the name of Krsna is the principle thing in the gayatri mantra. Within the mantra, there are also so many other words, but the name is the most important. If the name of Krsna is taken away, and replaced with some other name, the whole thing will be rotten. This is the decision of Jiva Goswami. The holy name of Krsna is all in all. The holy name of Krsna is there in the gayatri mantra, and so many other words are couched there. But if Krsna's name is taken away and replaced with the name of Siva, then the whole thing will go to Siva. The holy name is the all-important factor.

 

If you look around, you will see may people who chant Krishna mantra they have received from a genuine Guru, but whose God-consciousness develops towards materialism or impersonalism. These people are chanting the mantra and meditating, but in time they may become devotees of Maya or Shiva.

 

Below, you can read part of the biography of one such individual, taken from his web site at http://www.bhajankutir.net/ndelmonico.html

[muralidhar]

On the home page:

 

I'm Nitai Das, once a disciple of A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, the founder of ISKCON. I later received initiation from Kisorikisorananda Baba, or Tinkudi Baba for short. Initiation is ritual acceptance into the Vaisnava community and empowerment through mantra. It is thought that mantra are empowered sounds when received in an unbroken line from their source. Such mantra bring one into both direct and mediated contact with the sacred and are thou the sacred and are thought to create a portal through which one can enter the sacred realm.

 

On this page

http://www.bhajankutir.net/ndelmonico.html

 

 

So you decided to come visit me instead of that nincompoop Nitai Das. Good for you! That Nitai Das is seriously confused, I believe. This is the home page of Neal Delmonico. I am an unemployed scholar of Indic religion and philosophy. I received my PhD from the University of Chicago in 1990 and taught for five years at Iowa State University in what is now called the Department of Religious Studies and Philosophy. I am currently translating various works belonging to the Caitanya Vaisnava tradition from Sanskrit and Bengali and working on several books and articles. Who needs teaching anyway. The Caitanya Vaisnava tradition is a religious tradition inspired by the 16th century reformer and saint Sri Caitanya. It is a version of the ancient religious tradition called Vaisnavism, the religion ed Vaisnavism, the religion of the worshippers of Visnu, an ancient deity mentioned in the Rg Veda and important in the later religious history of India. In Sri Caitanya's version of Vaisnavism, Visnu has been replaced by Krsna and to some degree Krsna himself has been overshadowed by his divine lover Radha. Radha is described as the power of Krsna and she is often represented as the embodiment of the most pure and profound love for him. Thus, the conception of godhead has been split into male and female and the relationship that obtains between them has become the focus of religious life of this tradition. A rich body of religious writings has grown up in the tradition including works of poetry, songs, plays, philosophy, and aesthetics, some of which have been mistranslated in organizations like ISKCON and the Gaudiya Matha. I want to try to make these works available to western readers in intelligible and faithful translations and eventually to write critical appraisals of various aspects of the thought and religious life of this rich tradition. Most of the texts that I am working on are represented here in rough and incomplete forms. These are all works in process and thus they are constantly being revised, expanded, and hopefully improved. Please have a look at them and give me your reactions to what you read. I look forward to receiving your comments and questions.

 

I am also interested in other areas of Indic philosophy and religion and some of those interests are those interests are also represented here. Thus, you will find works on Vedanta of various flavors, works on Nyaya (logic), Yoga (meditation), Sankhya (metaphysics), Mimamsa (hermeneutics), Vaisesika (physics/metaphysics), literary criticism, aesthetics, and so on and so forth. I have even done some work on Saivism and Saktaism (the worship of the god Siva and the goddess Sakti). You might even find some texts on erotics here. Drop back in from time to time to see what's new and what's changed.

 

As far as my perspective on all of these works is concerned, I am a skeptic. In my younger days (and still at times) I was far too gullible for my saner moments today. My gullibility transformed me into that dodo Nitai Das. I joined the Hare Krishna Movement (ISKCON) and visited India for the first time in 1973. That is how I became interested in the Vaisnava tradition originally. I began the study of Sanskrit and Bengali (and some Hindi) during that period. Eventually I became disillusioned with the Hare Krishna Movement, left that organization and became a disciple of another guru, who was also a member of the Caitanya Vaisnava tradition, but not of ISKCON. He seemed to me to be a more genuine Vaisnava than Swami A.C. Bhaktivedanta, the founder of ISKCON. After living and practicing with Sri Kisorikisorananda Baba for some time I returned to the U.S., finished my undergraduate education at the University of Colorado and then went on to graduate school at the University of Chicago.

 

Over the years I have seen my attitude towards the Vaisnava tradition and towards religion in general change. I now see religion as mostly a form of fantasy-fulfillment, explainable better in terms of human need rather than divine revelation. Religious fantasies are for the most part harmless, but some times they become so powerful and intertwined with reality that they become like a sickness. This is when religion becomes very dangerous. Like diseases, they are communicated by contact and also like diseases they strike at people in certain conditions of weakness and vulnerability, among which might be counted poor education, weak critical thinking skills, low self-esteem, overly abundant self-esteem, and so forth. In addition, there is a certain addictive quality to these religious fantasies. Even when one recognizes them as fantasies and as unlikely to be true one often still longs after the comfort and euphoria they may bring. Perhaps that is why I find myself still fascinated by the Vaisnava fantasies found in these texts, or by the fantasy of Brahman found in the Vedanta texts, or by the fantasy of cosmic orgasm found in the tantric texts. On the other hand, one must recognize that truth is elusive. No self-conscious critic can say with certainty that there is no Krsna, no Radha no Brahman, no cosmic orgasm. There may well be a Krsna, a Radha, a Brahman or Radha, a Brahman or a Siva. Though one cannot deny their reality with any certainty one is not compelled to any affirmation either. All an honest enquirer can do is affirm that so-and-so believed such-and-such in this-and-that circumstance and recognize that so-and-so's belief in something does not make it true. Nor does somebody's willingness to die for a belief have any bearing on the validity of that belief. The procedure adopted here is the minimalist one of recognizing the fact of someone's expression of belief without mistaking that fact as evidence of its truth. In other words, religious beliefs remain fantasy until proven otherwise and the standard of proof here is empirical.

[muralidhar]

Madhava,

 

First I would like to say thank you to you, as these discussions we have been having have moved me to go and read, once again, the primary sources of Truth, the shastras of Gaudiya Vaishnava lineage. Most specially Chaitanya Charitamrta. I must say however that after closely studying Chaitanya Charitamrta I have no doubt that the conception of Diksa and of Siksa-Guru Parampara presented by Srila Sridhar Maharaj are fully supported by Kaviraj Goswami and other Gaudiya Acharyas.

 

I view of what I have read, I feel it will be of service to the devotees if I compile a detailed article about the understanding of Parampara presented by Prabhupad Srila Saraswati Thakur and his faithful disciples.

 

I plan to collect all this information over the next couple of weeks. It cannot be done sooner since I need to get some books of mine that other people have borrowed so I can complete this essay. Specifically, I need to get back the book Prabhupada Srila Saraswati Thakur by B. K. Sraman Maharaj. But I also want to some other books and articles I think are valuable to this discussion.

 

Muralidhar

 

[raga]

 

I view of what I have read, I feel it will be of service to the devotees if I compile a detailed article about the understanding of Parampara presented by Prabhupad Srila Saraswati Thakur and his faithful disciples.

 

 

That will be very wonderful. Please be sure to document your sources very carefully. Also, it will contribute to the credibility of your document if you can present the sources of the sources, so to say, when you are quoting second hand evidence. For instance, while quoting from Bhaktikusum Shraman's title, it will be helpful to know whether what he writes is his personal experience or not, and if not, from where he has learned the statements he presents as far as history goes. I am curiously looking forward reading your document whenever it is completed.

[raga]

 

Below, you can read part of the biography of one such individual, taken from his web site at http://www.bhajankutir.net/ndelmonico.html<br />

 

He loves to provoke people. That must be one of his favorite engagements aside producing considerable quantities of quality manuscripts and translations of Gaudiya Vaishnava literature.

 

Why not quote from http://www.bhajankutir.net/music.html :

 

"Krishna is, of course, the ultimate musician. The sound of his flute cracks open the universe and lets the light in. If he were to play the guitar, I think it would sound like one of these guys, however."

[muralidhar]

Madhava said:

Also, it will contribute to the credibility of your document if you can present the sources of the sources, so to say, when you are quoting second hand evidence. For instance, while quoting from Bhaktikusum Shraman's title, it will be helpful to know whether what he writes is his personal experience or not, and if not, from where he has learned the statements he presents as far as history goes.

<hr>

 

I intend to base most of what I have to say on Chaitanya Charitamrta. I will have another look at some other texts, but in Chaitanya Charitamrta I have already seen everything. That is, in the Bengali text of Chaitanya Charitamrta.

 

Sripad Sraman Maharaj's book is extremely detailed. He lists, practically month by month, the activities of Srila Saraswati Thakur. Given that he was the next Acharya and immediate successor of Sripad Bhakti Vilas Tirha Maharaj, you can take it that his statements are fully representative of the thoughts of Bhakti Vilas Tirha Maharaj.

 

I clearly remember that those first disciples were initiated by Saraswati Thakur in 1905; I will provide the exact names as soon as my friend sends me this book.

 

Murali

 

[muralidhar]

I haven't look at his site even once for more than two years. But I notice he has updated the site with some new content, yet hasn't updated his statement that he is now a skeptik who thinks all religious sentiment is simply fantasy.

 

 

[raga]

 

I clearly remember that those first disciples were initiated by Saraswati Thakur in 1905; I will provide the exact names as soon as my friend sends me this book.

 

 

Also please let me know whether the initiation was Harinama initiation or mantra-diksa initiation.

[muralidhar]

 

Madhava said:

Also please let me know whether the initiation was Harinama initiation or mantra-diksa initiation.

 

<hr>

Harinama, I believe. The first disciple was a young boy, whose name I can't remember, and that boy served at Chaitanya Math for many, many years. Sraman Maharaj does give a biography of that boy.

 

Murali

[muralidhar]

Madhava,

 

I am just exploring some issues. I would be interested to hear from you, who do you say is the initiating Guru of Srila Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami? In CC, Adi 1.37 he lists Srila Raghunath das Goswami as a siksa-guru, not Diksa. What relationship do you say he has with Sri Nityananda Prabhu?

 

Murali