Racism and spiritual understanding.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

If anyone needs chanting beads and cannot find them in their area, we can send a set free as a gift. Just send an email with your postal address.

[debbie]

jndas,

Where do I send the email that contains my postal address? Thanks.. Debbie /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[debbie]

Theist,

Thanks for your help.Jndas has answered your request, and I am now waiting for an response to my question.And yes, I have memorized the mantra.I have been practicing out loud on my way to work in my car, and even sometimes when I am sitting at work, working, but more silently.

"Hare Krishna,Hare Krishna,Krishna,Krishna,Hare Hare"

"Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama, Rama, Hare Hare"

Debbie

[Avinash]

Contact him at

jndas@

[debbie]

Avinash,

Thanks for the email address.I have sent the info.there,with the request for the chanting beads. Thanks again.. Debbie /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

Just for the record I am White racist and consider myself a National Socialist.

 

I have read many ISCKON books and have seen Swami Prabhupada use the term Aryan as a referance to a specific race at least three times. Once in the Bhagavad-Gita As It IS and two times in the Srimad Bhagavatam. It has been many years since and can't find the exact pages at the moment but I asure you they are there, at least in the older printings of these books.

 

He said that the people of Europe and America were Aryans and that the Maha Mantra and the Vedic culture would appeal to them because of this fact.

 

I think that it is possible to be racist and spiritual at the same time. Racism isn't a matter of hate its simply love of your family. Your race is your extended family, your nation is your families home and the culture is what keeps the house in order. If another race of a differant culture has come into your home to steal, kill, and subvert the culture, it is moraly justified to use any means necissary to defend your home. Although Prabhupada did not condone violence he did admit that it was not Ghandi's non-violent activism alone that liberated India it did take some Physical action.

 

I do not hate or wish harm on anyone I only want to work and live in peace but when they (the non-Aryans) threaten my life and home what else can I do. I know this is the Kali yuga and things are suppost to get more and more hellish as time moves on, but that doesnt mean I have to feed myself to the tigers who have come to eat my mother.

 

Another point on Prabhupada is his like for variety. I say yes Variety is great by you don't have to mix the races to have variety. In fact if the races are mixed and mixed over time there will be no more vaiety, it will only be brown hair, brown eyes, brown skin, etc. no more variety. Did not Krishna create the individual races or humanoids, I think Ive seen a referance to about 400,000 species.

 

I love Krishnas handy work and will try to keep it safe and clean to the best of my ability. Save the earth, save the whales, and save the White Aryan race.

 

Oh yes also for the record, it may be a shock to you all but I do chant the Maha Mantra and subscibe to BTG also. I hope my ranting has not been too offensive. I am very happy to find this forum and I will read it myself and share it with others as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

My argument: Racism is there in people with ass like mentality. Racism is not present in people with swan like mentality.

 

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu did not consider race. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was of swan like mentality.

 

Hari

----

[Jinglheimer]

I can't help but feel my post got us off on a tangent. We all have differences, some major but must still take each and every person as they come and not make any generalizations or have expectations. Of course there are our senses to guide us in our dealing with others but there is much trouble reacting before any of the facts are in except race. And to be so careful is no easy trick somehow especially these days when murderers go free and political careers are ruined at the slightest notion or hint of bigotry and bias. It is almost to the point where the most serious protestors seem to want to just come out fighting. But what is disturbing to me is one that feels I automatically owe something for being who I am or one that pegs me as having a certain opinon or idealology without even having a clue

[Guest guest]

So this difference is caused by a temporary body.Someday when we will find ourselves out of this cage and then all knowledge will come to us.Limitations will seem puny.Illusion will be removed.A whole new world.The truth is we are already ONE.Lord Jesus said pick up a stone and you will find me.God is everywhere and he is also seated in everyone's heart.He makes no distinction.All are his beloved children.

 

God bless you all.Hare Krsna!

 

Joy

[Kulapavana]

We need to judge people not by the colour of their skin but by their behaviour or culture. Arya means "noble" and refers to both race and culture. The Vedas teach to accept people by their quality. That is true for their varna (character) as well as culture. There is plenty of "white trash" out there and no sane person should consider them to be Aryan in any way. In Vedic times there were SEVERAL WHITE RACES mentioned in the scriptures, but they were not all considered Aryan or noble. "Aryan" is the essence of goodness in the social sense of humanity. Food for thought.

[Guest guest]

 

Racism is Vedic

 

 

In Vedic society (ie the noun "Vedic" - not 'vedic' - adjectie = knowledge) Blacks are sudras, vaishas are black-brown, ksatriyas are brown, and Brahmanas are Whits ("sukla")

 

 

 

 

This position is explicitly refuted by the Vajra-sUchika Upanishad. I don't remember which mantra, but it's pretty short and so it shouldn't be hard to find.

 

 

[theist]

There is a great danger involved when one tries to make such distinctions in Vaisnava society. The risk of offending some great soul is just too great.

 

The eternal Hare Krsna movement is taking place on the absolute plane where these considerations just have no standing.

[livingentity]

 

Brahmanas are Whits

 

 

Whits? Brahmanas are funny? Whitty?

 

 

Racism is Vedic

 

 

Don't even go there. You will never be able to explain this statement in such a way as not to offend many many people.

[Guest guest]

 

Can one be a racist and still be on the spiritual platform?

 

 

 

Definitely not.

 

vidyAvinayasampanne brAhmane gavi hastini |

shuni chaiva shvapAhe cha panditAH samadarshinaH || gItA 5.18 ||

 

The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brAhmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater [outcaste]. (bhagavad-gItA 5.18)

 

 

Myself being in a White body I am forced to avoid Black neighborhods because of the potential violence that would surely come my way.

 

 

 

Are you sure you aren't being a little hard on yourself? Me, I tend to avoid people who dress, walk, and speak in very low class ways. Many such people that I notice are, coincidentally, in African-American bodies. But in reality it's the way they conduct themselves which repells me, not the fact that they are African-American. If they are in White or Indian bodies and behave low-class, I still avoid them like the plague. I might mistakenly consider myself "racist" had I not analyzed those feelings more carefully. We all form first impressions, and if someone's manner or bearing suggests that he might not respect your personal space and liberties, it is natural for us to avoid them. It's a survival instinct.

 

 

What I find most disturbing is the undercurrent of racism that is existing in the world of Krsna conscious practice.

 

 

 

You mean in the world of ISKCON. Whether those currents are Krishna-conscious is another issue.

 

 

Black devotees are often looked down on.Now the fashion seems to be to hate the Jews."Weren't many of Prabhupada's leading disciples Jewish?Isn't that the reason that they tried to take over the movement, because of their being Jews?"etc.

 

 

I don't doubt it, but I just haven't noticed it. I have noticed condescending attitudes towards homosexuals, however. But then I can't say that most homosexuals I meet are necessarily saintly. It seems like any social group is damned in the eyes of ISKCON devotees if even one among them behaves inappropriately towards those devotees.

 

 

How do those in Indian bodies feel I wonder?Do you look down on those who are of a different race or born in different lands outside of India?

 

 

 

I don't look down on anyone for their race. But I do look down on people who don't practice brahminical culture properly. Thus, there are many Indians I do look down on, and a handful of White and Indian devotees for whom I have great respect. Perhaps I shouldn't even look down based on culture, but then I'm not a very enlightened person myself. All I know is I'm sure I'm not racist.

 

 

Do you feel looked down on for some reason?

 

 

 

I often perceive that devotees assume that I am mayavadi and undisciplined because of my Indian background. But usually when I wear dhoti and tilak they won't get this impression. But sometimes I dress like a karmi to see how some new devotee will act, and then surprise them. I'm probably just Evil.

 

 

There is also a certain perception that Indian bodied devotees,especially congregational members, can never quite catch the spirit of Prabhupada due to over-identifying with 'hodge-podge' Hindu concepts."But they do contribute to the Temple nicely so we tolerate it."

 

 

What those same devotees who espouse those sentiments often fail to take into account, is that if they themselves practiced the philosophy which they preach, it is more likely that conservative Indian bodied congregational members will identify and respect them. Note that I said "more likely," not "definite."

 

In the temples I have lived at, the Indians seem to perceive the Westerners to be very weird and difficult to figure out. On one hand, there are times where they (Western bodied devotees) look fixed up - shaved head, tilak, and dhoti/sari while there are other times where they seem to look like something in between (tilak and blue jeans or shorts). There are times when they behave one way, and other times where their behavior seems to be no different from other karmis (like bringing in the latest girlfriend to the temple, having children conceived out of wedlock, marrying/divorcing/remarrying, etc). It's sort of an unholy combination - just be a devotee or a be a karmi! don't mix the two.

 

On the other hand, I can't say that most Indians I see are doing their best either. The proper dress for men in the temple is dhoti and kurta-top (NOT blue jeans), with hair cut as short as possible (NOT all puffed out) - all this is regardless of sectarian affiliation. Women also have their traditional expectations - sari (NOT gagra and NOT punjabi dress and most certainly NOT blue jeans) with hair tied up in a bun or in a long pony tail (NOT cut short or flowing freely like some Bollywood actress). I feel that many Indians that I observe are getting more and more blasse about dressing properly in front of the Deities, and I'm not even talking about the occasional life member's airhead daughter who walks in wearing shorts.

 

Where was I going with this? Oh yeah, racism. Well, if you see something for a long time, you get used to it. The philosophical indifference of the Indian congregational member. The schizophrenic devotee/karmi lifestyle of a Western bodied devotee. The hyperpolitical liberal "change everything" stance of the homosexual devotee. It goes on and on. Do you relate to people based on such expectations, judging them before you meet them? Then it is a prejudice. And it becomes racism when it persists despite what is actually observed.

 

For a devotee on the other hand, all these sorts of weird behaviors which depart from the Vedic norm are just seen as manifestations of various coverings. The devotee sees the pure spirit soul within and tries to enlighten him, being mindful of the coverings, but never judging the living entity based on those coverings.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Racism is spiritual understanding

[Guest guest]

Who is Israel?

 

Galatians 6

 

15: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. (Whether you are circumcised or uncircumcised in the flesh, God does not care. It does not get you or anyone else to heaven.).

16: And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. (The Israel of God is the person that understands the scriptures)

 

Galatians 4

 

22: For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23: But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24: Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25: For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26: But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27: For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28: Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. (notice it says, “children of promise” and not children of the flesh or seed.)

 

Galatians 3

 

28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29: And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

Romans 4

 

12: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13: For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. (Abraham’s seed through flesh was promised nothing. Those who have the righteousness of faith are the heirs to the promise.)

 

Romans 2

 

28: For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

Philippians 3

 

3: For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. (Philippians is a Gentile church and Paul addressed them as “we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit” He included them).

 

I Timothy 1

 

4: Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. (It does not matter about your heritage in the flesh that includes those whom they call Jews. It only matters if you worship God in the spirit.)

 

Titus 3

 

9: But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

 

Romans 9

 

4: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5: Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8: That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (The literal flesh has nothing to do with the promise. They are not the children of God. The only way to become a child of God is through the righteousness of faith. How is that done? Read the scriptures, understand, and have faith in them. And tell others about what you have learned. For learning is only part of it. You must tell others.) Matthew 10:32 “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.”

 

Ezekiel 47

 

21: So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.

22: And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. (The strangers or what you call Gentiles because they did as God asked, they became as ones born in the land. They were counted as being among the tribes of Israel. They too were Israelites. If they were not, they could not have inheritance. Dogs cannot have an inheritance with the people of God).

23: And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD. (That stranger became part of one of the twelve tribes.)

 

Exodus 12

 

48: And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

(Again, they obeyed God and were counted the same as one born in the land.)

 

Ephesians 2

 

11: Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12: That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14: For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (There is no more a wall between the Gentile and the Jew because God has no respect of persons. This wall or division between them was destroyed. So now how do we get in? By learning the Word of God and having faith in it and confess it before men.)

15: Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16: And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18: For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19: Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

 

Matthew 15

 

21: Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

22: And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23: But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24: But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25: Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26: But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

27: And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28: Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. (Her faith made her an Israelite, made her the same as one born in the land. Christ was not willing to give the food to the dogs, but because she had faith in Him (The Word of God) her faith had made her whole. If she had no faith, she would not have wasted her time. Even some of the lost children he came for had no faith, that is why they fell away after his death. After Christ’s death, the wall between the Gentile and the Jew was torn down. Everyone is on equal terms. The only way to get in is through Christ and through Christ you become an heir according to the promise. No one is getting in by being an heir through the flesh. They have to come through Christ like everybody else or they are not getting in. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Christ was the Word of God. This is in Revelation 19:13-16 or in John 1:1 and John 1:14.)

 

Revelation 22

 

14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15: For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Remember Christ called the Canaanite woman a dog. But because he knew she had faith, she was no longer a dog.)

 

Romans 11

 

13: For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. (Paul was a Jew outwardly. He was trying to provoke them or taunt them in order to save them. If they were already saved, he would not have had to try.)

15: For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16: For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17: And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18: Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19: Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: (He was speaking about the ones who call themselves Jews. Because they did not believe Christ, God cut the branches off. Now they must partake as everyone else. They in their ignorance also became Gentiles, which are dogs. Now, only through Christ, do you become a Jew which is one inwardly and circumcision will be that of the heart.)

21: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22: Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (This means once everyone must learn his word, everyone must continue in it or they too will be cut off. Don’t forget to confess the truth.).

23: And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. (If they, those who call themselves Jews, believe in the Word of God, they will be graffed back into the olive tree)

24: For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

 

Jeremiah 10

 

16: The portion of Jacob is not like them: for he is the former of all things; and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: The LORD of hosts is his name. (God gave Jacob his name. If you believe the Word of God, you too will be given the same name. You will inherit his name as Jacob had done according to the promise.)

 

 

Don’t forget to learn the scriptures with your whole heart and make sure that you understand them, otherwise don’t speak about what you are not sure of.

 

 

 

[theist]

 

For a devotee on the other hand, all these sorts of weird behaviors which depart from the Vedic norm are just seen as manifestations of various coverings. The devotee sees the pure spirit soul within and tries to enlighten him, being mindful of the coverings, but never judging the living entity based on those coverings.

 

 

This makes no sense and is divisive only.

 

 

Racism is spiritual understanding

 

 

In this I see promise but wonder if it doesn't fall a little short. For we have an eternal connectedness or oneness with the sinner as well as the saint.

 

 

28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

There is no racism with God. God is no respect of persons. God wants all to understand the scriptures. That is how one gets to know him. That is how one gets into heaven.

[Guest guest]

Are Klansmen stupid enough to connect Christianity and the Aryan race? All semetic religions are anathema to Aryan religions(Hinduism, Teutons, Nords)? Read about the Aryan race ignorant Klanners! India is the cradle of the Aryan race.

[Guest guest]

Sakhyamuni Buddha also used the word Aryan to refer to a "refined" man, a person who is a deep, contemplative thinker. The ancient word is misused, when it is used to signify a particular racial group. Sukadeva, the son of Vedavyasa, was a Chinese person from the Tibetan, Himalayan region, according to Srila Sridhar Maharaj. And Dhoumya, the Guru of the Pandavas, was also Chinese. They were Aryans, but they were not members of the European or Caucasian race.

[theist]

In this I see promise but wonder if it doesn't fall a little short. For we have an eternal connectedness or oneness with the sinner as well as the saint.

 

 

In reply to:

--

 

28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

 

--

 

Anybody know what I was thinking when I wrote this? I don't have a clue. That verse looks fine to me.

 

 

 

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

Racism isn't a matter of hate its simply love of your family

 

Reply:

 

So why do I have to hate you to love my family and kindred?