raganuga com wins close door. :)

[kailasa]

The fragment of God, the living entity, may fall down into the material world, but the Supreme Lord (Acyuta) never falls down.

 

BG 8.3

 

Therefore, she addressed Him as the original puruсa beyond the material cosmos. Although all living entities are also transcendental, they are neither original nor infallible. The living entities are apt to fall down under the clutches of material nature, but the Lord is never like that.

 

SB 1.8.18

 

The Supreme Lord is known as Acyuta, and Lord Kеслa is addressed as such by Arjuna in Bhagavad-gйtд (senayor ubhayor madhye rathaа sthдpaya me ’cyuta). Acyuta refers to one who does not fall because He is never influenced by the modes of material nature. When a living entity falls down to the material world from his original position, he becomes cyuta, which means that he forgets his relationship with Acyuta. Actually every living entity is a part and parcel, or a son, of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When influenced by the modes of material nature, a living entity forgets this relationship and thinks in terms of different species of life; but when he again comes to his original consciousness, he does not observe such bodily designations.

 

SB 4.21.12

 

In conditional life the living entity is attracted by a face, eyebrows or eyes, a voice or anything. In short, everything becomes attractive. When a man or a woman is attracted by the opposite sex, it does not matter whether the opposite sex is beautiful or not. The lover sees everything beautiful in the face of the beloved and thus becomes attracted. This attraction causes the living entity to fall down in this material world.

 

SB 4.25.31

 

This is an explanation of how the living entity falls down into this material world. In the spiritual world there is no duality, nor is there hate. The Supreme Personality of Godhead expands Himself into many. In order to enjoy bliss more and more, the Supreme Lord expands Himself in different categories. As mentioned in the Varдha purдлa, He expands Himself in viслu-tattva (the svдазa expansion) and in His marginal potency (the vibhinnдазa, or the living entity). These expanded living entities are innumerable, just as the minute molecules of sunshine are innumerable expansions of the sun. The vibhinnдазa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world. In the prema-vivarta it is said:

 

kеслa-bahirmukha haпд bhoga-vдпchд kare

nikaцa-stha mдyд tдre jдpaцiyд dhare

 

The natural position of the living entity is to serve the Lord in a transcendental loving attitude. When the living entity wants to become Kеслa Himself or imitate Kеслa, he falls down into the material world. Since Kеслa is the supreme father, His affection for the living entity is eternal. When the living entity falls down into the material world, the Supreme Lord, through His svдазa expansion (Paramдtmд), keeps company with the living entity. In this way the living entity may some day return home, back to Godhead.

 

By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer. That is to say, the living entity takes his position within a material body. Wanting to take a very exalted position, the living entity instead becomes entangled in a repetition of birth and death. He selects his position as a human being, a demigod, a cat, a dog, a tree, etc. In this way the living entity selects a body out of the 8,400,000 forms and tries to satisfy himself by a variety of material enjoyment. The Supersoul, however, does not like him to do this. Consequently, the Supersoul instructs him to surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Lord then takes charge of the living entity. But unless the living entity is uncontaminated by material desires, he cannot surrender to the Supreme Lord.

 

SB 4.28.53

 

and so on.

 

beginningless - Because in the spiritual world there is no material time. In what time the soul was included here - beginningless, because the time is a category of the material world.

 

There are two eternities material and spiritual. In material eternity of soul refer to as nitya baddha, in spiritual eternity of soul refer to as nitya siddha. In any case if the relation ARE ETERNAL. The material eternity is relative (anadi), but the spiritual eternity is absolute (sat-cit-ananda). From the point of view of material eternity the soul falls in her. Of the point of view of spiritual eternity the soul never falls.

 

From the point of view of the spiritual world of soul do not fall, it is more exception, but did not correct. From the point of view of the material world, here all have fallen.

 

OK?

 

"The Lord is eternal; therefore any relationship in which we accept Him is also eternal."

 

"Every living being has an eternal relationship with the supreme living being, Kеслa. "

 

"For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval."

 

BG 2.20

 

“It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Kеслa because he is the marginal energy of Kеслa and a manifestation simultaneously one and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Kеслa has three varieties of energy.

 

Madhya 20.108-109

 

Marginal means the separated expansion. Soul same as well as God, only soul not the God. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif Soul of the PERSON, instead of the MECHANISMS, therefore at them are there can be PERSONAL DESIRES.

 

Tatastha means sat-cit-ananda, as reflection of the Supreme Person.

 

"... The soul is a particle of consciousness. When she makes offence, turning away from service Krisna, she gets under authority maya. ..."

 

Brahma samhita 44. The comment SBT ( Sri Caitanya Sarasvat Math )

 

"We search here for that have lost when participated in lilas Vaikuntha."

 

Premapradipa. SBT

 

You accept Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura? He is acariya or not?

 

***** God enjoy made soul in material world anadi? *****

 

The god does not enjoy it. The soul ITSELF comes here at the will, instead of the God sends her here in prison. We came here, therefore WE receive consequences it.

 

"About your question: The Spirit Soul is certainly eternal and changeless; and the fall is superficial, just like the relation between father and son cannot be broken ever. Now we are simply in a phase of forgetfulness, and this forgetfulness is called Maya. There is a nice example in the waning of the moon. To use the moon appears to be changing, but in fact the moon is always the same. So as eternal servitors of Krishna--our constitutional position--we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall. Krishna is the Supreme Enjoyer, and we are constitutionally to be enjoyed by Him, and when we revive this constitutional position where is no more Maya. K.C. gives us the opportunity of rendering service to Krishna, and this service attitude only can replace us on our original position. Please therefore, continue to chant faithfully, and Krishna will reveal Himself, by His Causeless Mercy, and you will know everything automatically. I shall, of course always be ready and anxious to answer any question you have."

 

Here all very clearly is explained?

[raga]

Raganuga understanding personality complex making yes? Very quite we do common also agree. Nice was but not being think there understand? Mayby we try see am stopped.

 

с1083;a-bahirmukha haпд bhoga-vдпchд kare

nikaцa-stha mдyд tдre jдpaцiyд dhare

 

Mayby so being over relations too am many. Yes?

 

[raga]

For those of you wondering why Raganuga.Com closed the door from further discussion in this regard, I would like to present ten good reasons verbatim from the posts of Kailasa.

 

1. "Am answer late, it is write about this so many."

 

2. "What needs? Him it is needs? He dewelop souls? Souls burn? Souls dewelops?"

 

3. "Allegory there is used, therefore as it seems to me to deform sense told difficultly enough."

 

4. "Anadi it is cildris arguments."

 

5. "Am not andestend anoters letters, late am read and answer."

 

6. "Ok/ anadi am sell for samvit."

 

7. "I am sorry, but in club not knowing English and without the interpreter it is difficult to be guided."

 

8. "If you can present statements where the soul is said to be relations not etrnal, feel free to quote them."

 

9. "Am read late, am not have time early, exuse."

 

10. "If you follow not understand true, may be for you wery well situations?"

 

Fair enough?

[kailasa]

Am late, now am not undestand.

 

He is wery well all undrstand, wery well. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif They intrprent Prbhupada. Am take citation from FOLIO in pure language, but ... they take off this citation. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[raga]

Just answer one question Kailasa, will you?

 

Every other Gaudiya Vaishnava, whether in the Gaudiya Matha, among the Gosvamis or among the Babajis, will disagree with the idea of falling from Vaikuntha, as well as with any theories of simultaneous fall and no-fall. Do you think they all got it wrong?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Kailasa's first language isn't english. Some of his posts may be hard to understand, but we should appreciate the effort he goes through to try to participate on various discussion forums.

[stonehearted]

jndas wrote: "Kailasa's first language isn't english. Some of his posts may be hard to understand, but we should appreciate the effort he

goes through to try to participate on various discussion forums."

 

I'll grant this, but let's hope that, since he seems so determined to use English to influence others (let's face it--he's usually preaching to the rest of us), he's actually studying the language and making progress. Any progress is, so far, hard to discern.

 

Regarding the substance of his recent posts, his carping about raganuga.com's closing discussion of the issue sounds petulant. What would be the point in prolonging such discussion, since it seems to elude resolution? Gaudiya siddhanta is that no one falls from Vaikuntha, and although Srila Prabhupada has said as much himself, many of us continue to be confused by other statements he has made. When asked directly about the controversy, he responded with the "Crow and Tal Fruit" story, the point of which is that this matter is beyond our ken to resolve.

 

ISKCON's GBC have issued a resolution on the matter, and Kailasa seems to accept that as definitive. That's his prerogative. But if others find Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Visvanatha more persuasive than a GBC "law," why can't he just let it rest? Afer all, as Srila Prabhupada says, the real question is what we'll do with ourselves to revive our constitutional nature as eternal servants of Krishna.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

What would be the point in prolonging such discussion, since it seems to elude resolution?

 

 

That assumes the purpose of discussion is to convince another party of one's views. People can discuss just for the sake of discussing and seeing others views on a topic, while offering their own views for consideration.

[theist]

We read in Jaiva Dharma about some jivas coming from Balarama who immediately enter vraja lila.Others from Sankarsana who enter Vaikuntha, and others who are from the effulgence of Maha-Vishnu who have the option of entering the material world or rising directly into relationship with Krsna.That process(rising) does not seem to be describe anywhere.

 

The former are labeled as nitya-siddhas'.The latter tatashta-shakti.

 

Are there writings before Bhaktivinode that state this?

[raga]

 

ISKCON's GBC have issued a resolution on the matter, and Kailasa seems to accept that as definitive. That's his prerogative. But if others find Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Visvanatha more persuasive than a GBC "law," why can't he just let it rest? Afer all, as Srila Prabhupada says, the real question is what we'll do with ourselves to revive our constitutional nature as eternal servants of Krishna.

 

 

Here is the definitive resolution:

 

<font color=blue>ISKCON Laws (1997, 28.3/1):

 

"Vaikuntha is that place from which no one ever falls down. The living entity belongs to Lord Krsna's marginal potency (tatastha-sakti). On this we all agree. The origin of the conditioned life of the souls now in this material world is undoubtedly beyond the range of our direct perception. We can therefore best answer questions about that origin by repeating the answers Srila Prabhupada gave when such questions were asked of him:

 

“The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.” (see Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

 

No ISKCON devotee shall present or publish any contrary view as conclusive in any class or seminar or any media (print, video, electronic, etc.)."</font>

 

I said it in the other thread, and I'll say it here: Go figure.

[stonehearted]

Here's how great a problem it can be to them: A friend of mine is a long-time editor for BBT. For a while, he was working on Jaiva-dharma, which BBT was going to publish (can't remember whose translation). They got stalled in the project because they couldn't figure out how to deal with BVT's discussion of the nature of the jiva. When he asked my advice, I replied that they had to present Bhaktivinoda faithfully, regardless of their understanding or of any official edicts. Apparently, they couldn't do that, in consideration of this law.

[raga]

We sincerely appreciate the enthusiasm of Kailasa. However, we could not fail to notice the fact from the midst of his broken English that he was trying to impose his own view on us at our forums without giving due consideration for our extensive scriptural presentation in contrast to his novel ideas. Since Sriman Kailasa persisted in quoting both irrelevant passages as well as translations without the original Sanskrit or Bengali despite our requesting him to do otherwise, we chose to close the thread after its tenth page, though everything substantial that was to be said was said already by its fourth page or so, and since it appeared that nothing more of substance was to be said and some comments of his began to drift off-topic. As we closed the thread, he took it as his mission to open a new thread and copy and paste some of his posts from the old thread there. This thread was closed for obvious reasons, and was moved to the "Test Forums" of Raganuga Discussions, should anyone be interested in reading his further contributions on the subject matter.

 

Now Kailasa has gone to every other forum and started a thread about Raganuga.Com closing his topic. We are very flattered by the attention we thus receive, but we are sincerely hoping that Sriman Kailasaji would try to see the world outside of his little epistemic well limited to his interpretations of certain passages from Bhaktivedanta Swami's writings and laid on the foundation of his self-righteous enthusiasm to convert the world.

 

We love you Kailasa. Please try to broaden your vision.

 

[stonehearted]

jndas wrote: "That assumes the purpose of discussion is to convince another party of one's views. "

 

stone: Actually, there was no assumption at all. I inferred that purpose from the tone and substance of the posts. That's not always easy to do with Kailasa's posts, given his lack of facility with English; still, my experience and training have prepared me to do my best. (I'm an English professor with training in rhetoric.)

[raga]

 

We read in Jaiva Dharma about some jivas coming from Balarama who immediately enter vraja lila.Others from Sankarsana who enter Vaikuntha, and others who are from the effulgence of Maha-Vishnu who have the option of entering the material world or rising directly into relationship with Krsna.That process(rising) does not seem to be describe anywhere.

 

The former are labeled as nitya-siddhas'.The latter tatashta-shakti.

 

Are there writings before Bhaktivinode that state this?

 

 

Not that I know of. The theory of three kinds of jivas is a logically coherent conclusion and in harmony with earlier texts. Each of the three are individually stated, but I can't recall any instance where they would be grouped together like here. You could find something of interest in the Paramatma Sandarbha.

 

Caitanya Caritamrita (1.4.65-66) explains that the realm of Vraja, including Krishna's mother, father and so forth, are transformations of suddha-sattva which is understood as an essential feature of sandhini-sakti, which in turn is dominated by Baladeva.

 

Laghu Bhagavatamrita (2.167) calls Sankarsana, the second expansion in the caturvyuha, by the name "jiva", indicating Him as the origin of all living entities. It is this very Sankarsana who manifests himself as the three Purusa-avataras, the first among whom is Karanodakasayi-Vishnu, the one who manifests the myriads of universes and who implants the jivas into the womb of prakriti.

 

I do not have any references at hand about the residents of Vaikuntha manifest from one of the Caturvyuha-murtis (though I am certain I will find one if I take the time and search for one), but this seems to be a very logical conclusion.

 

As far as the idea of first choice at any time goes, it has been discussed earlier (at Raganuga Discussions) how the bondage of the jiva is anAdi, beginningless, and thus there is no consideration of first choice.

[Guest guest]

Raga, thanks for the references.It still seems to beyond my understanding, but nothing new there.

 

I still have doubts on the jivas with choice and those that don't.Does not seem right somehow.

 

 

Raga:"As far as the idea of first choice at any time goes, it has been discussed earlier (at Raganuga Discussions) how the bondage of the jiva is anAdi, beginningless, and thus there is no consideration of first choice."

 

That appears to contradict the idea that from our nuetral position we had a choice of moving towards Krsna or Maya.How is it that just because we are beginningless there could be no beginning to our being influenced by Maya?

 

If our association with Maya will someday be ended why is it not possible that it also had a beginning?I seem to be hearing we began in the Brahman and simultaneously we began under Maya's influence.

[kailasa]

I wrote one posts in club (poorly understandable), and other house. They you see responded me, why it is not understandable in such case? All links on sastra are connected among themselves.

 

The soul is a part samvit sakti. Therefore its(her) relation are eternal with the God and in it sense that she(it) does not fall. In the other case explain what means eternal? anadi this temporary status, but eternal is eternal. Eternal means there is no beginning (anadi) and there is no end. It is correct?

 

The material infinity is "0" in comparison with spiritual. Does not fall the soul does not lose the qualities means as that. The soul can not fall in the material world, never by him(it) of the relations with the God. She has the relation with the God and ambassador falls.

 

The time is speed of change of a matter. In the spiritual world there is no material time. Soul therefore IS NOT POSSIBLE to determine at what moment of time has fallen here (anadi).

 

Srila Prabhupada all this is very good explains.

 

"About your question: The Spirit Soul is certainly eternal and changeless [ sastra all world explains it *kailasa* ]; and the fall is superficial [ *ANADI* The soul does not fall ], just like the relation between father and son cannot be broken ever [ The relation are eternal ]. Now we are simply in a phase of forgetfulness [ The soul has fallen ], and this forgetfulness is called Maya. There is a nice example in the waning of the moon. To use the moon appears to be changing [ Life in the material world ], but in fact the moon is always the same [ But the soul is real remains in a spiritual situation ]. So as eternal servitors of Krishna [ We are not expansion Maha Visnu ]--our constitutional position--we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall. Krishna is the Supreme Enjoyer, and we are constitutionally [ Always, is eternal ] to be enjoyed by Him, and when we revive this constitutional position where is no more Maya. K.C. gives us the opportunity of rendering service to Krishna, and this service attitude only can replace us on our original [ There where we were ] position. Please therefore, continue to chant faithfully, and Krishna will reveal Himself [ If to have sraddha Krisna will show itself ], by His Causeless Mercy, and you will know everything automatically [ You will lose not looking on all knowledge sastra /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif ]. I shall, of course always be ready and anxious to answer any question you have."

 

This letter Prabhupada is much more than knowledge sanskrit. Studying language it is not possible to increase spiritual qualification.

 

Try to understand

 

- THE GOD DID NOT SEND In the MATERIAL WORLD ANYBODY.

- THE GOD CREATES ALL PERFECT And ALL HAS ANANDA NATURE INITIALLY And ETERNALLY.

- We came here.

- OUR efforts therefore are necessary what to get out of the material world.

- Material world created on desires of SOUL.

 

( Can it be not understandably written /ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif ?)

 

I have resulted enough verses where is spoken that

1. The soul forgets or turns away from the God.

2. The soul falls in the material world.

3. The soul proceeds from Krisna.

4. souls it is expansion cit sakti, but not sat sakti.

 

Bibli speaks about fall as.

 

k&#1077;&#1089;&#1083;a-bahirmukha ha&#1087;&#1076; bhoga v&#1076;&#1087;ch&#1076; kare

nika&#1094;a-stha m&#1076;y&#1076; t&#1076;re j&#1076;pa&#1094;iy&#1076; dhare

 

This is the formula. As soon as we forget K&#1077;&#1089;&#1083;a, immediately there is m&#1076;y&#1076;. Just like the sunshine and in the shade, they are existing side by side. If you don&#8217;t remain in the sunshine, then you come to the shade, darkness. And if you don&#8217;t remain in the darkness, you come to the sunshine. Similarly, if we don&#8217;t accept K&#1077;&#1089;&#1083;a consciousness, then we have to accept m&#1076;y&#1076; consciousness. And if we don&#8217;t accept m&#1076;y&#1076; consciousness, then we have to accept K&#1077;&#1089;&#1083;a consciousness. Side by side.

 

Tatastha. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

 

**Mayby so being over relations too am many. Yes?

 

Is guilty. I do not understand. Can be to you tell differently.

 

***Why not take a break from debating fine theological points to spend three months or so seriously concentrating on learning spoken English.

 

This serious offer. It is necessary to consider. Why by him to not have it is a little patience (Titiksa). Through a pair of pages I all would explain to them. I shall not write simply any more from club. Though the basic things you see were clear. Observe - soul it sat, cit, ananda.

 

soul is eternal, form soul is eternal, relations etrnal

 

Compare - anadi *** ETERNAL

 

There are two eternities material and spiritual. In material eternity of soul refer to as nitya baddha, in spiritual eternity of soul refer to as nitya siddha. In any case if the relation ARE ETERNAL. The material eternity is relative (anadi), but the spiritual eternity is absolute (sat-cit-ananda). From the point of view of material eternity the soul falls in her. Of the point of view of spiritual eternity the soul never falls.

 

Is necessary to try to understand that have in view of Goswami.

 

************

 

They can not respond. What for to close a subject? It is their right certainly. If they will not close a subject, whether that all then can understand the soul falls or does not fall?

[kailasa]

SP writes about fall and not fall. No needs follow one side.

[raga]

 

I still have doubts on the jivas with choice and those that don't.Does not seem right somehow.

 

 

It is rather hard for conditioned souls to fathom that which is beyond our perception. As it is beyond our perception, so it is also beyond our logic. If we wish to apply logic, we need to deduct the premises for our reasoning from the scriptures.

 

 

Raga:

 

"As far as the idea of first choice at any time goes, it has been discussed earlier (at Raganuga Discussions) how the bondage of the jiva is anAdi, beginningless, and thus there is no consideration of first choice."

 

Guest:

 

That appears to contradict the idea that from our nuetral position we had a choice of moving towards Krsna or Maya.How is it that just because we are beginningless there could be no beginning to our being influenced by Maya?

 

 

The theory of neutral position calls for scriptural support. There is no support for it in the Gosvami's writings or in the Vedanta Bhasya of Baladeva as far as I am aware of. They consistently present the bondage of the jiva as beginningless.

 

 

If our association with Maya will someday be ended why is it not possible that it also had a beginning?

 

 

Why something is not possible? Well, it may be possible, but it is not so just beceause we think it is so or because it is possible. There are many possibilities. To attain certainty, we need to approact the subject matter by considering scriptural evidence.

 

 

I seem to be hearing we began in the Brahman and simultaneously we began under Maya's influence.

 

 

You seem to be hearing... ? /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

[raga]

 

Try to understand

 

- THE GOD DID NOT SEND In the MATERIAL WORLD ANYBODY.

- THE GOD CREATES ALL PERFECT And ALL HAS ANANDA NATURE INITIALLY And ETERNALLY.

- We came here.

- OUR efforts therefore are necessary what to get out of the material world.

- Material world created on desires of SOUL.

 

( Can it be not understandably written ?)

 

 

My dear Kailasa,

 

I do understand the gist of what you are trying to express. You need to understand that I will not accept your opinion (or the opinion of anyone) unless it is backed up with adequate evidence from the scriptures.

 

I have seen the letter of Bhaktivedanta Swami you quoted, as I have seen many many letters of his, which seem to explain the subject matter in a different way. When there is conflicting evidence, I will rather draw my understanding from older sources which are at the root of the sampradaya's conceptions and which everyone ought to follow.

 

 

They can not respond. What for to close a subject? It is their right certainly. If they will not close a subject, whether that all then can understand the soul falls or does not fall?

 

 

It is not a matter of being or not being able to understand. We do understand what you're trying to say, and we were hoping you would understand that you need to address the ample evidence we presented from the Gosvamis, from Visvanatha and from Baladeva, and at the same time you must be able to present proper scriptural references with the original Sanskrit included if you wish to have your opinion taken seriously.

 

Let us begin with a few references. Please explain.

 

Visvanatha comments on Bhagavad Gita 13.20:

 

mAya-jIvayor-api mac-chaktitvena anAditvAt tayoH saMzleSo’py anAdir iti bhAvaH

 

“The material energy and the living entities, being My energies, both are beginningless, and their mutual embrace is also beginningless.”

 

Caitanya Caritamrita, 2.22.12:

 

‘nitya-bandha’—kRSNa haite nitya-bahirmukha

‘nitya-saMsAra’, bhuJje narakAdi duHkha

 

“The eternally bound living entities have been eternally opposed to Krishna. They rotate forever in the cycle of birth and death, suffering the miseries of hellish existence and so forth.”

 

Jiva Gosvami's ParamAtma-sandarbha (47):

 

tadevamananta eva jIvAkhyAs taTasthAH zaktayaH. Tatra tAsAM vargadvayam. Eko vargo’nAditaH eva bhagavadunmukhaH, anyas tvanAditaH eva bhagavat- parAGmukhaH-svabhAvatastadIya jJAna-bhAvAt tadIya-jJAnAbhAvAcca.

 

“In this way the marginal energies called jIvas are unlimited. They have two classes. One class is devoted to the Lord beginninglessly (anAdi) and the other is not devoted to the Lord beginninglessly (anAdi). This is because the former class of jIvas naturally have knowledge of the Lord and the second class of jIvas naturally do not have knowledge of the Lord.”

 

Jiva Gosvami's Priti-sandarbha (1):

 

atha jIvazca tadIyo’pi tajjJAna-saMsargAbhAva-yuktatvena tan-mAyA-parAbhUtaH sannAtma-svarUpa-jJAna-lopAn-mAyA-kalpitopAdhyAvezAc-canAdi-saMsAra- duHkhena sambadhyate iti paramAtma-sandarbhAdAveva nirUpitam asti.

 

“Although the jIva is part of the Lord, he is devoid of knowledge about Him and this deficiency has no beginning. Because of this he is covered by mAyA. This being so, he is united with the beginningless material miseries because the knowledge of his svarUpa is covered and he is absorbed in the upAdhis, designations, created by mAyA. This was explained in the ParamAtma-sandarbha.”

 

Visvanatha explains in his commentary on Bhagavata (3.7.10):

 

tatra bhagavataH pRSTha-sthitayA anAdyavidyayA tamaH svarUpayA anAdi-vaimukhya-rUpa-bhagavat-pRSThasthAnAM jIvAnAM jJAnam yal lupyate tasya na vastutvaM kAraNaM nApi prayojanaM kim apy asti.

 

“Avidya (ignorance), which is anadi, is situated on the backside of the Lord and has the nature of ignorance. She covers the knowledge of the jivas who are situated on the backside of the Lord and are non-devotees. Their non-devotion is anadi. There is no real reason or purpose for their knowledge being covered.”

 

Additionally, Bhagavat Sandarbha (Anucchedas 63-65) discuss the subject matter at length. Let us examine the references above for now.

[kailasa]

"The illusory material nature attracts the minute living entity to embrace her, and as a result he assumes forms composed of her qualities. Subsequently, he loses all his spiritual qualities and must undergo repeated deaths. You, however, avoid the material energy in the same way that a snake abandons its old skin. Glorious in Your possession of eight mystic perfections, You enjoy unlimited opulences." SB

[raga]

Come on Kailash, I have on two occasions pointed out that the translation is not very precise and that your interpretation of the verse is wrong. Then you go on and quote it again, without the original Sanskrit and without reference to the verse.

 

The verse is from Srimad Bhagavata, 10.87.38. As follows:

 

<hr>

sa yad ajayA tv ajAm anuzayIta guNAMz ca juSan

bhajati sarUpatAM tad anu mRtyum apeta-bhagaH |

tvam uta jahAsi tAm ahir iva tvacam Atta-bhago

mahasi mahIyase ’STa-guNite ’parimeya-bhagaH ||

 

“Because of the influence of the material energy, he (the living entity) is in close contact with its qualities, and assuming them, he shares its qualities, adopting its forms, and consequently meets with death, deprived of good fortune. You, however, leave it aside just as a snake discards its skin, being endowed with all good fortune. You are mighty with your eight qualities of immeasurable majesty.”

 

<hr>

 

[kailasa]

Forgetting K&#1077;&#1089;&#1083;a, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy [m&#1076;y&#1076;] gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence.

 

 

[kailasa]

TRANSLATION

 

&#8220; &#8216;You should know Krsna as the original soul of all atmas [living entities]. For the benefit of the whole universe, He has, out of His causeless mercy, appeared as an ordinary human being. He has done this with the strength of His own internal potency.&#8217;

 

 

[kailasa]

**You, however, leave it aside just as a snake discards its skin,

 

snake have skin?

 

[muralidhar]

Raga said:

<hr>The theory of neutral position calls for scriptural support. There is no support for it in the Gosvami's writings or in the Vedanta Bhasya of Baladeva as far as I am aware of. They consistently present the bondage of the jiva as beginningless.

<hr>This issue you are debating is discussed in depth in Sri Brahma Samhita. In his commentary to Brahma Samhita, Sri Jiva Goswami says:

<blockquote>In Sri Narada-pancaratra it is said:</P>

 

 

"The individual soul is spiritual and conscious. It lives on the

border between the spiritual and material worlds. It can leave that border,

enter the material world, and become contaminated by the modes of nature. That

is the situation of the soul."</P></blockquote>

<hr>Below I have quoted a section below from Sri Jiva Goswami's commentary. If you read Sri Brahma Samhita in depth you will see Sri Jiva Goswami does quote scriptures to support his view that the soul has arisen from a marginal position.

Sri Jiva says that again and again universes are created and the souls awaken from the hazy tatastha position which is like deep sleep. The souls have the option to make a choice to proceed to the realm of love and surrender, or to migrate to the material realm where living beings exploit each other. Or then again, they can choose to remain in their marginal state...

What is the marginal state like? Well, do you remember those pictures you see of Tibetan bodhisattvas hovering in the sky and looking down upon the world. That's the marginal position. They are stuck in the darkness of the Viraja or "Causal Ocean" that is described in detail in Sanatan Goswami's book Brhad Bhagavatamrtam.

 

Here are a few statements of Sri Jiva Goswami from Brahma Samhita:

<hr>

<blockquote>

 

 

18 When Visnu lying in the ocean of milk wills to create this universe, a

golden lotus springs from His navel-pit. The golden lotus with its stem is the

abode of Brahma representing Brahmaloka or Satyaloka.**</P>

 

 

19 Before their conglomeration the primary elements in their nascent state

remained originally separate entities. Non-application of the conglomerating

process is the cause of their separate existence. Divine Maha-Visnu, primal

Godhead, through association with His own spiritual (cit) potency, moved Maya

and by the application of the conglomerating principle created those different

entities in their state of co-operation. And after that He Himself consorted

with Yoganidra by way of His eternal dalliance with His spiritual (cit)

potency.**</P>

 

 

Commentary by Srila Jiva Gosvami</P>

 

 

With the purpose of awakening the countless spirit souls, Lord

Karanarnavasayi Visnu engages in the acts of creation described in the Third

Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Those acts are also described in these two verses.

Here the words "mayaya" means "with His own potency", and the words "parasparam

tattvani yojayan" mean "He engaged them without Himself becoming active". The

word "yoganidram" is used because the Lord accepted her.</P>

 

 

20 By conglomerating all those separate entities He manifested the

innumerable mundane universes and Himself entered into the inmost recess of

every extended conglomerate (virad-vigraha). At that time those jivas who had

lain dormant during the cataclysm were awakened.**</P>

 

 

Commentary by Srila Jiva Gosvami</P>

 

 

This is the third verse in this passage. The word "yojayitva" means

"conglomerating them". Then He was situated in sleep. That is the meaning. The

word "guham" refers to His universal form. The word "pratibudhyate" means "He

awakened them from the sleep that began with the destruction of the previous

universe."</P>

 

 

21 The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning

joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is

transcendental spiritual potency.**</P>

 

 

Commentary by Srila Jiva Gosvami</P>

 

 

In this verse the author describes the relationship between the individual

spirit soul and the Supreme Lord. The word "nitya" here means "for all time,

without either beginning or end". This means that as the sun and the sunlight

have an eternal relationship, so the Supreme Lord and the individual spirit soul

also have an eternal relationship. In Sri Narada-pancaratra it is said:</P>

 

 

"The individual soul is spiritual and conscious. It lives on the

border between the spiritual and material worlds. It can leave that border,

enter the material world, and become contaminated by the modes of nature. That

is the situation of the soul."</P>

 

 

In the Bhagavad-gita (15.7) Lord Krsna declares;</P>

 

 

"The living entities in this conditioner world are My parts and parcels and

they are eternal."*</P>

 

 

The individual spirit soul is an impartial judge, a witness of both the

original spiritual world and the reflection that is the material world. In that

sense the individual soul is called "prakrti". This use of the word "prakrti" is

seen in these words spoken by Lord Krsna in Bhagavad-gita (7.5):</P>

 

 

"There is a superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living

entities."</P>

 

 

The eternal relationship between the Supreme Lord and the individual spirit

souls is also seen in these words of Mundaka Upanisad (3.1.1) and Svetasvatara

Upanisad (4.6):</P>

 

 

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead and the individual spirit soul are like

two friendly birds sitting on the same tree."</P></blockquote>