Vipramukhya Swami quits

[Guest guest]

Yes, let us pray for this poor suffering soul Vipramukhya prabhu. Sri Krishna says (in BG) that he will always protect his devotee, no matter what he does.

 

Let us pray for all those poor sannyasis who are suffering like him, also have noone really to talk to, since they made it that way themselves.

 

[ethos]

Guest, this reply is very sad. Just more of the same thing. It is said that you can't tell a moron anything.

 

I have noticed that alot of people here read some good books and sometimes quote the authors. But there is very little understanding in what they read––all theoretical knowledge. They often speak out of context and even misrepresent the masters under the guise of helping others. Their preaching sounds little more than common gossip.

 

But their greatest joy is character assassination.

 

To do this, they assume much about their targets. Like bad philosophers, they create a straw man and blow it down. The issues are irrelevant. Rather, it's the intended offense and humiliation they're after––the fine taste of false ego.

 

Their words betray that they take everything cheaply but themselves.

[brajamandala]

Dear Guests, I detect callous condescending indifference from both of you. How sweet you are. May be you Guest: Closure seeing you have arrived at the conclusion that this thread serves no purpose and everyone is a tormented soul bar you, should leave this thread and associate with those befitting your pure ilk.

[Guest guest]

These words would never be spoken from a true devotee. Srila Prabhupada (or any Srila Prabhupada) would never use this way to treat anyone.

 

There is one way you can see who is a madhyama-adhikari: compassion towards others - towards demoniac and towards divine nature.

 

If Vipramukhya prabhu has problems - it is because he did not do something proper. Or he did something wrong too much. It is on him to solve, because he knows best what he is doing.

 

But, what you do not like is sentence "we must approach a pure devotee".

 

Without proper guidance, our chanting is offence and we fall down even from goodness, what to say compassion.

 

Just 5 minutes with pure devotee - everything material looks zero.

 

 

 

 

[ethos]

Guest, I took a peak back and was hooked. I am officially absent.

 

Your sannyasi examples above actually support my postion more than your own. Thus I asked you earlier to explain what you meant in your first Read Prabhupada book posting. You did not reply. Now, it seems you have no comprehension of your actions and how little they mean. You make a stronger case for my position while deluding yourself that they support yours. You also mix broad spiritual slogans with your own personal feelings as if it's all somehow the same thing. It's not!

 

You are a useless devotee who hits your mother every day!

 

Now, isn't that statement a bit outrageous? In other words, you're not useless and you don't hit your mother every day. But this is exactly what I've been getting lately from people like you––nothing more than blind, ambitious attacks at character assasination.

 

I love talking to devotees if they know what they're talking about. JNdas here (and his ashram association) all seem to be very competent and knowledgeable. But beyond that, they have some realization. Their own words convey the essence of the scriptures in refreshing ways. Their spontaneous devotion is evident. There are a few others.

 

But I tire of devotees who preach superficial compassion and compromise in the name of eternal truth. This exploitation of religion has historically been going on a long time and I'm sick of it. I react with criticisms and challenges when I see it. That's just my style. We can't all be like you.

 

It's too bad we don't have more experts like Prabhupada. However, there are a few mahatmas who are relations experts. Let's just hope they can be as influential in time.

 

But as far as my criticisms on this board, though they may not be up to your superficial standards, they are in line with what I know about the person from dialogue and not crazy loudmouth name-calling with no foundation in truth. So who's more compassionate, the self-stylized heretic who reveals people's hypocrisy but can stay on the issues, or the "compassionate devotee" who wildly slanders and offends without foundation?

 

I am not a great devotee, never pretended to be. But I will change the world and that is much because of the person I am. How will all your compassion manifest?

 

I personally have noticed from world diplomacy the ettiquette and compassionate behavior you bring up. The businessmen, the politicians, and even Hare Krsna GBC's all manifest this "professional" care and concern in their presentations to the public. And it is evident on this board. But what is the practical result of this useless diplomacy aimed at seduction? The world is going to hell. That's all. President Bush delivered his first public address making his case against Iraq with "acceptable" pillow-talk. I've never witnessed such an outrageous contrast of style to content in my life.

 

And after all, your compassion quickly dissolved into conflict when there was self righteous ego to be enjoyed.

 

Is it violent to practice the truth––even if it may be unflattering? On the other hand, what does all this superficial flattery accomplish?

 

You may say that my words are never spoken by a true devotee. I personally disagree and doubt that you know what you're talking about based on your replies above, but still I give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

Regardless of what you think my qualifications are, higher beings do communicate with me and they have given me a program to change the world... and I am faithfully performing that service. I am certainly unqualified in many ways, but I have more than enough tenacity to perform my revealed service.

 

What about the example of the last two years of the Pandavas exile at the palace of King Virata? King Yudhisthira was placing dice with King Virata while suggesting that it was not the King's son (Uttara Kumara was it?) who was routing the Kaurava army. Virata became angry and threw dice at Yudhisthira's head causing him to bleed. Due to time and circumstances that he was aware of, all this was proper and Virata was not at fault. Still, the Pandava brothers were going to kill the king for his ignorance of the real facts and he was saved only by Yudhisthira himself. Similarly, there are many stories of anger involving curses and counter curses in the Vedic literatures from persons far superior to us. What about Ghadhari and others cursing Krsna? So many examples. Your simple understanding is neophyte.

 

The world is full of as many different capabilities and styles as there are people. Each has their strenghts and weaknesses. Each has their own part to play. Again, we can't all be like you.

 

The near future may prove you right about me. Theoretically, a slaughterhouse owner could ascend to heaven in this life while I descend to hell. Such are the ways of karma and the choices people make. But it is much more likely that you will be embarrased––if indeed you are as "compassionate" as you subtely advertise yourself to be.

 

Truth is not subjective. Truth is truth. The truth of your value on my worth or my claims herein has not been revealed as yet. Restrain your speech to what you can authoritatively speak on and there will be no fist fights.

 

Read Srila Prabhupada's books? It's not enough that I'm transcribing Dialectic Spiritualism (evidenced by my posts here) and cross-referencing many related links throughout his various publications for public propagation? I'm absorbing everything with a critical eye––like a karmi may view it––and there's little or nothing to fault! I am dedicating a good portion of my life to just that activity, but somehow you missed it! You tell me to do what I'm already doing? Sounds like more of a war cry than compassionate advice to me. In your case reading may not help. The chanting of the Holy Name is the prescribed method for this age.

 

Stick to what you know if you want to present yourself as an authority.

[Guest guest]

 

in the current vnn, there is an article

attacking vipramukhya,

 

in it they cite numerous examples of times he allowed

letters to be published in chakra that were

voicing opinions different then that of Srila Prabhupada.

 

The enitre letter is nothing more then an attack on

vipramukhya for being in ISKCON and on chakra.

 

Their point is silly, how can you present parampara

siddhanta on a subject if people are not allowed to

voice their opinions to the contrary ?

 

They use this pretext of complaining about allowing

peoples "unauthorized views" to be published

as a vehicle to rant their subtext-i.e. those no good

devotee's of ISKCON.

whatcha think ?

[Jagat]

The signatories of that letter were all connected to the GHQ group that represents the most conservative faction of Iskcon. Observe the references to the women's brain issue in this letter. They bear a grudge against Vipramukhya because he permitted Madhusudani Radha (the "feminist") to publish on Chakra promoting higher status for women.

 

This was about the only progressive thing that Vipramukhya did.

 

For the rest, the criticisms of Vipramukhya as sometimes acting like a superficial lightweight have some merit.

[stonehearted]

Jagat's right about who these men are and what their agenda is. I was suprised to see Haripada's and Vatasala's names on the essay, though. I have know both since we moved to California in the '80s and always found them liberal and reasonable; seeing them with GHQ members took me by surprise.

 

Regarding their characterization of Viprmukhya as, as Jagat puts it, "sometimes acting like a superficial lightweight," I agree there's some merit in it. His diary entries were often silly and distracting. And I had a problem with the way he managed CHAKRA for a long time. It seemed as though he would put any criticism of vaishnavas outside ISKCON, no matter how devoid of any merit, on the site. A few years ago, when Umapati Maharaj stepped down as CHAKRA editor, Vipramukhya asked me to take the post. I immediatelt declined and told him exactly why. At the time, I found both CHAKRA and VNN often served only as virtual rags that would post any prajalpa or vaishnava aparadha. After I wote Vipramukhya explaining why I didn't want to work with him on this project, he never acknowledged my letter. In fact, he didn't reply to anything I wrote him on other topics for over two years.

 

I believe his present situation is due to having been in over his head. He went rhino hunting, tromped around in the bush for a while in his safari hat, got some things done, made some city-boy goofs, and found himself in trouble in the end. In this he's not in virgin territory.

 

 

[Jagat]

Dear Stonehearted,

 

Now that you mention VNN and Chakra. There have been several other attempts at News sites, but every one of them has been flawed by seeing their site as a propaganda tool, rather than as a service to the devotees.

 

The devotees are now a far wider group than simply the disciples of one or the other spiritual master. But I believe that anyone who is genuinely implicated in the movement, directly or indirectly, has an interest in hearing

 

(1) News of successes.

 

(2) Multifaceted discussions of failures (not simply reports based on one individual's viewpoint; in other words a modicum of investigative journalism where negative stories are "in the news."

 

(3) Well-written editorials that shine genuine light on problems that face the movement.

 

(4) Devotee interpretation of world events.

 

There seems to be no one to come forth and put the energy needed to construct such a site, with the active commitment, etc., required to do a decent job.

 

More and more devotees, especially the "diaspora" of fringies, are dependent on the internet for their sat-sanga and their news of the movement, but they are looking for material that does not insult their intelligence.

 

Jagat

[Guest guest]

 

i dunno, prabhus.

 

To me their main complaint seemed to be a personal attack

in the guise of a critical dissection.

 

The point about not allowing any opinion other then

"authorized " ones, is not worthy for a publication

that seeks interaction with those who want discourse with the vaisnava community and have a different opinion

then them.

 

It seems like an unneccessary attack with a convienent

reason that holds no water.

 

The complaint about Vip being a lightweight is just plain

offensive.

Who are they to attack a devotee engaged in distribution

of Mahaprabhu's movement.

 

To overtly attack the devotee for a nitpicking complaint

is unworthy of the vaisnava.

 

Where is the attitude of humility, offering respect,

these guys need to seriously chill, and lighten up.

If they want to set an example of perfection themselves,

fine, but to be like small minded envious aparadhi's

that they preach against, seems to me to show their real motivation, trying to tear down peoples reputation,

in order to advance their own.

[Jagat]

By naming GHQ, I meant to agree with Shiva in principle.

[Guest guest]

sorry .i never heard of GHQ, can you enlighten moi ?

[ethos]

Post deleted by ethos

[Guest guest]

o.k. i just read an article about the GHQ.

 

What a bunch !

 

one of their points they make is that the mormons are the fastest growing church in the world,and they do not allow women to have advanced positions.

 

so therefore women should be excluded also in ISKCON,

what ? ISKCON should follow mormon examples ?

Do they know that until very recently the mormon church did not allow blacks ?

Only due to public pressure do they now.

 

Er..guyz, the mormons have lot's and lot's of kids,for this reason ONLY are they the fastest growing, this is a fact,

not my speculation.

 

As I read more i'll comment.

[Guest guest]

what is vnn's game ?

 

they publish many articles condeming GHQ,the one i just refered to, then they publish the current letter FROM the

GHQ where they attack Chakra and vipramukya, for not following GHQ ideals ?

 

pick a side guys, otherwise you look like you are attacking any ISKCON

entity or person regardless of philosophy or reason.

[Guest guest]

does anyone know if the GHQ has any other agenda other

then the anti women one ?

 

 

[stonehearted]

They'll tell you that their onlyagenda is to preserve Srila Prabhupada's teachings and institution without adulteration. They have a Web site at ghq.org, which has a collection of essays and compilations of quotations. You can see from that what their concerns are.

 

You're correct to say that this recent VNN article was written as an attack on Viprmukhya and CHAKRA. They see his sin as accommodating Madhusudani Radha and others with a perspective defferent from theirs.

 

VNN is less anti-ISKCON than some complain. They publish many aricles favorable to ISKCON. I believe they're followers of Narayan Maharaj. My complaint used to be that there was no complaint against ISKCON that VNN wouldn't post, and there was no complaint against Narayan Maharaja that CHAKRA wouldn't post. That has changed.

[stonehearted]

Jagat, I believe you're right on the money. What you describe is what I believe many would like to believe these two sites were meant to be. (I think they're wrong.)

 

It would be a wonderful thing if someone could run a site like this. I don't have the time or money right now (I haven't even been able to get my own site together yet), but I wish I did.

[Guest guest]

 

It appears to me that these guyz(GHQ) have appointed themselves ,similar to the IRM ,as our saviors

from the "deviations" of ISKCON personell.

 

The whole business reeks of egocentric smallmindedness.

 

instead of trying to engage in expansive efforts to distribute Mahaprabhu, they instead want to diminish

and restrict peoples attempts and enthusiasm

to be of as much service as they can.

 

why do they have this attitude ?

 

Do we really need self appointed moniters of ethics and morality for the entire vaisnava community ?

 

Puh leaze !

 

How about a little compassion, a little inclusion,

a little warmth and humility ?

 

Maybe the right attitude to take for ISKCON is that it is

for the benefit of the fallen souls.

 

It should be for the accomodation of people who desire inclusion and non discrimination.

 

Demanding some strict interpretation of renunciation for

ISKCON and it's managerial style is not a helpfull

thing , for the distribution of Love.

 

If these guyz want to start their own group, and be as strict and whatever they value so much, then go ahead,

enjoy.

 

Leave ISKCON for the benefit of the neophyte and the

unenlightened.

 

[muralidhar]

 

For what it's worth...

 

VNN was started by Krparama das (ACBSP), an associate of Paramadvaiti Swami, who now is very close to B.V. Narayana Maharaja. VNN wants us to believe VNN is providing a neutral and unbiased News Site. A place where devotees from different Sanghas publish news stories and philosophical articles about Vaishnavism. But the agenda of the VNN editor is very clearly to publish criticisms of the ISKCON GBC's policies and direction. As a result of this VNN agenda, Chakra was born.

 

More generally, I think it is better to have many small Vaishnava web sites each openly representing a particular school of thought, instead of having a single big site (VNN) or hub where devotees go to find out news and views about different Vaishnava communities.

 

One of the things that I loved about the internet when it first started was that it allows small businesses and small groups to publish information (for low cost) about their offerings in a global market. Capitalist media conglomerates and government sponsored media outlets employ spin doctors who use the mass media as a means of control over their constituencies - consumers and citizens. But the internet revolution made marketing much easier for the little people -- small businesses that make products which they want to promote in a global marketplace, environmental groups who want to spread the word, etc..

 

I see VNN as a marketing tool that is being used to generate customers and business for one particular organization. Discerning consumers will go to a different marketplace when they want to purchase some sweet juice.

 

Murali

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I found it all quite tasteless.

 

The points could have been established without reference to any specific person. What was the goal of the article?

 

I encountered the GHQ cult before. They seem sincere enough, but a little too literal for my taste. When I showed them the irrational paradox of their position they retracted and disappeared. Seems they only went underground and forgot their defeat like an ostrich sticks its head in the ground when confronted with danger.

 

The mind will not win Sri Krsna's favour.

 

gHari

[leyh]

What does the acronym GHQ stand for?

[stonehearted]

muralidhar wrote: ". . . the agenda of the VNN editor is very clearly to publish criticisms of the ISKCON GBC's policies and direction. As a result of this VNN agenda, Chakra was born.

 

More generally, I think it is better to have many small Vaishnava web sites each openly representing a particular school of thought, instead of having a single big site (VNN) or hub where devotees go to find out news and views about different Vaishnava communities."

 

If that's still VNN's agenda, he's become somewhat subtler. He seems to publish posts from many sangas, including ISKCON; still, there appear to be more from Srila Narayana Maharaja than anyone else (though I'm not going to take the time to count).

 

I like the idea of many sites honestly devoted to presenting each sanga's vision, rather than the "big" sites such as VNN and CHAKRA. I thought that VINA had the nicest of the three. It's interesting to note that it was run by Siddhasvarupananda's folks, who are often percieved as keeping themselves isolated. Part of their project was a catalog of links to many, rather varied, sites related to vaishnava dharma. It was the least active of the sites, though, and now it's gone.

 

So whenever anyone gets a site together, please post a link to the Recommended Websites thread.

[gHari]

[http://www.chakra.org]CHAKRA seems to be in a state of limbo where the web name be in jeopardy from not paying the yearly fees. It is likely, hopefully, just an oversight; or better yet, perhaps it's just a technical glitch and will be resolved soon.

[stonehearted]

Actually, CHAKRA is being reorganized. Madhusudani Radha and Upmapati Swami could not agree on editorial policy, etc. Therefore, they have parted company. Because she has paid for the Web hosting for years she will be hosting CHAKRA in its new form, whatever that may be. In the meantime, Umapati Maharaja has opened a site at www.dipika.org.