Vipramukhya Swami quits

[theist]

atma:"What about gay sannyasis? Where do you keep them?"

 

Just wondering......

 

Hmmmmm...In the closet? /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

 

 

 

[stonehearted]

That's where I think theist hit the nail when he/she wrote: "I hope this is not the only communication he has had with those that accepted him as their spiritual master.Just a letter

directing them to see the GBC for further details speaks to a mentality that is at the root of the problem.It sounds like he

thinks he has fulfilled his duty by writing that paragraph.

 

He owes these people at the minimum a one on one, face to face explaination.He needs to hear them express their

feelings on the matter at length and until they fully understand what is happening.

 

This impersonal "go talk to the GBC about it" is a major part of the problem there as I see it."

 

I'm with you here. A big part of the probelm is that they think their prime relationship is with the institution. We all need to read once more the purposes Srila Prabhupada gave for that institution's founding. Whatever doesn't clearly serve those purposes must be questioned.

 

If we think it's okay to pass the buck, that it's okay to vilify vaishnavas in the name of "protecting" the institution, that we can obtain forgiveness with form letters, we probably have a very limited understanding (that's generous) of what Krishna consciousness means. We can get a clearer idea by reading Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita.

 

Regarding gay sannyasis, I think we should keep them where we keep everyone else. Many gay devotees are as restrained in their sexual behavior as the straight devotees, sometimes more. I've had many gay devotee friends who were celibate. Those sannyasis who indulge their sexual urges without restraint, gay or straight, need to consider a change of ashram.

[atma]

My comment about gay sannyasis was because it didn't make sense to me to have separate monasteries where women were not allowed if the person carried with him his mind full of desires. It doesn't matter where you go if the mind still wants to enjoy separate from the Lord.

Atraction to men or women still is atraction and attachment. Maybe somebody wants to renounce everything and goes to the jungle and gets attach to animals. Whatever. I don't care who is gay or not. They're part of my daily life. And if is not attachment to sex of any gender is attachment to fame, name, glory, power, etc.

 

I don't think sannyas is for kali-yuga in general.

 

It is more glorious someone who is dettached in the middle of society.

 

I completely agree that everybody needs to recharge the bateries and have sadhu sanga. Gour Purnima and Karttika festivals are very good for association, pilgrimage and sankirtan. It's very sad that less and less sannyasis participate in the festivals or they come for a very little time. Association is so important in spiritual life.

 

 

[theist]

I understood your point atma.My response was just a little joke.

 

It is a good question because even if no one else new of the persons homosexual thoughts that person would be tempted all the time living with their desired object.Effectively countering the one of the main reasons for living in a monostary.Even worse for them if they had a separate gay ashram.

 

Its a lifestyle that doesn't seem to fit well into the natural course of things.

[xxvvii]

 

Already, he could no longer tell the many voices apart, not the happy ones from the weeping ones, not the ones of children from those of men, they all belonged together,

 

 

...Micheal Jackson ..., ...Micheal Jackson ..., ...Micheal Jackson ..., ...Micheal Jackson ..., ...Migo l:o:o Jaxong ..., ..., hooooong ...

It's too late & too loud! But dad, this is best part. You are wasting your time with this fallen garbage!

 

 

He no longer saw the face of his friend Siddhartha, instead he saw other faces, many, a long sequence, a flowing river of faces, of hundreds, of thousands,

 

 

Yeyeeye.

 

 

all small children already have the old person in themselves, all infants already have death,

 

 

Do you rememba the time ...Do You ...Do You ...Drrrrrra Da Da ...Drrrrrra Da Ra Da ...

 

(Atta. - mik.zip)

28863-mik.zip

[Guest guest]

I just want to say a thing or two. My original suggestion was in view of the fact that sannyas is already a Gaudiya Math institution and thus cannot be easily abandoned wholesale. The point is to make some changes that would improve the general social efficacy of the KCM.

 

On the other hand, we live in a society where we are bombarded with sexual references. It is hard to escape. It is, I think, a very good thing to have places where sex is specifically NOT on the agenda and everyone is aware of that.

 

It is impossible to remove sexual tension altogether, and people who try to eradicate it from their being are facing a difficult task. However, everyone could benefit from "no sex holidays," just like fasting. Monasteries would be a good place for this; oases from sexuality. It would be much harder for this to take place in a normal householder temple.

 

Jagat

[Guest guest]

Good letter, Stonehearted.

[theist]

A series of Prabhupada's statement regarding the sannyasa ashrama is being posted by Mahesh das at the site listed below.

 

http://devotees.krishna.org/Articles/2000/10/00145.html

[Streetstraw]

Theist mentioned St Francis. Good time of year for brahmacari-katha.

Many churches worldwide hold vegetarian festivals this week in his honor.

You can bring your pets, farm and zoo animals to get blessed.

Drag along your local sannyasis too. And make sure they get the blessings.

If you really love your local sannyasis, don't let them leave till you are sure they got dem dar Assisi St Francis blessings.

[stonehearted]

Jagat wrote, "Good letter, Stonehearted."

 

It's very kind of you to say so. I appreciate your comments on this matter, too. They're compassionate and rotted in common sense (as Bhaktivinoda Thakura calls it, "Man's glory").

 

BTW, in case you're not aware, I've been assigned the editing of HNC. I've become bogged down recently by heavy demands of work but will resume next week. It's a delight.

[Jagat]

Keep in touch with me about the HNC. I was wondering who was being assigned that. You have my email address? I believe it's in my profile.

[mahak]

Personally, I congratulate the honesty of the "letter", but agree that more is deserved by his disciples. How can a disciple assist a guru if the guru is not available?

 

A funny sidenote, on another site, many forum members, none of which are "in" ISKCON, kept saying the word "bloop" in regard to the swami, (who is not fallen, just realistic in regard to his consciousness, which is titled "self realization"). So, I guess a lot of so-called reformers cant get away from that ol' eccliastic approach of hypocracy, defined by King Yudhisthira as "the policy of creating religious principles for others to follow."

 

I wish the fellow well, and remind all devotees that one cannot ruin a stockpile of spiritual attributes attained from the practice of bhakti yoga, especially for something like taking on a wife or maybe burning a refer or sucking down a beer.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

 

ps, haribol jagat, hope you are well, ys, mahak

[stonehearted]

It's "hidden," whatever that means. Write me at williamr@hawaii.edu

 

Babhru

[Guest guest]

what is HNC

[ethos]

"Ditto.Ditto." I'm certainly not happy at the fall of another guru; quite the opposite.

 

But it's refreshing to see some constructive criticisms and insights here.

 

Theist: I was struck by his referral to the GBC too.

[theist]

ethos,

 

Yeah, I mean these disciples had his picture on their altars and were worshiping him as their personal link with Krsna!!!

 

Well maybe this will be instructive to anyone out there that looks upon being a guru as a post in a hierarchical system,something to aspire UP to.

 

 

[ethos]

Yes, I agree with your acute observation. A "personal link to Krsna" is quite flattering and supportive to the ego. Are we realistic about this "authorized" perspective?

[mahak]

Haribol, stony, jagat and others. Personally, I never have had a problem with "fallen" contemporaries. I have a few that I can never disrespect no matter what. WHY?

 

Easy. I was taught that this science is beyond time and place. I was taught that a vaisnava of character in our line daily offers puja to a prostitute, noting her position in regard to his spiritual growth. So, with these things that I have been taught, I can see all the devotees we all tend to hate in more favorable times and places where only admiration is there. And I can offer, even to a present day rascal, a certain puja in recognition of their roles in any spiritual developement that I may have attained.

 

as far as up and down action with the pictures, this is no consequence, for if one prays "Jaya Gaura Bhaktivrnda", ya went and respected all your peers anyway by saying such a thing.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[Jagat]

Hari-nama-cintamani.

[ethos]

Mahak, you replied to me... I didn't understand most of what you said, much less your point.

[theist]

mahak,

 

I can appreciate the humble position that you advocate.However when an institution certifies a guru as a bonafide link to God, and directs new bhaktas to place their faith in that person,I believe there follows a certain amount of responsibity.

 

I believe the problem originates from the idea that the institution has a say in the guru-disciple relationship in the first place.Why not just leave it up to Supersoul and let things develop naturally.

 

No one here has advocated kicking on Vipramukya das.He is also a victim of this mistaken idea of ecclesiastical guruship.

 

Anyway to each his own.

 

Haribol soul

[mahak]

Haribol, theist, a little explanation of my position is warranted here, so ill do it in the context of your post (a style I usually avoid).

You write:"mahak, I can appreciate the humble position that you advocate.However when an institution certifies a guru as a bonafide link to God, and directs new bhaktas to place their faith in that person,I believe there follows a certain amount of responsibity."

 

mahak: I agree that responsibility for one posing as guru is there, as is responsibility sholdered by institutional leaders giving out bad info, but I advocate that the bhakta who is led to a cheater is one who is searching for a cheap way, so the wonder of guru tattwa leads such candidates to less than what they say they want. In other words, not only is ISKCON and the various folks acting as gurus even they know they are not, the poor bhakta is also responsible. No one is innocent here.

 

You continue, "I believe the problem originates from the idea that the institution has a say in the guru-disciple relationship in the first place.Why not just leave it up to Supersoul and let things develop naturally."

 

mahak: No one interferes with the process of guru tattwa. It is purely supernatural communication between the self and the Superself. Things are, in fact, developing naturally. Krsna gives memory of swarup, but the same Krsna causes the forgetfulness of the self that makes folks depend on intermediary foundations and organizations and appointed gurus and the like to take charge of something very personal and proprietary. Folks should get out of the way, but it is the responsibility of the candidate for bhakti to step up to the plate and send these interferances packing.

 

you conclude: "No one here has advocated kicking on Vipramukya das.He is also a victim of this mistaken idea of ecclesiastical guruship."

 

mahak: I must say that it has been a little compassionate here, which shows a certain maturity gained by the writers here. Desires are fulfilled if sincerity is adequate. If someone wants to sit in a chair of spiritual authority over another, and this scenario actually happens, it has been granted. But if this is not wanted later, then the desire was not so good, dontcha think? There is no eccliastic guru over anyone who has not desired to be a wonderful eccliastic disciple. Always a two-way street, just as marriage. Anyway, haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

 

 

 

[stonehearted]

. . . Harinama-chintamani by Bhaktivinoda Thakura. I'm editing a translation by Jagadananda that will be published by Mandla Media. Kook for it next spring, I believe.

[stonehearted]

I earlier wrote to Jagat: I appreciate your comments on this matter, too. They're compassionate and

rotted in common sense. . . .

 

Of course, I meant to write "rooted," not "rotted." It's my brain which has obviously rotted, because of the warm, wet climate here on East Hawai'i. I hope this didn't cuase jagat too much worry about the editing of his work. Although I've always been a good speller, I'm not as competent a typist, and I usually catch these things in time to edit them.

[brajamandala]

I was very much moved by Vipramukhya Swami's address to all.

I have never met the man, but from my point of view he has heartfelt sincerity, and utter disappointment and despair for himself and for his disciples in his post. He's done his utmost, and that's the best we can do, and like a lot of sannyasis who give so much out to others over so long they forget their own needs and the dictates, ebbs and flows and moods of their own personal spiritual journey. It's all a learning curve and sometimes that learning curve falls outside of the doti and the sari. Krsna only sees us, he knows our bentness and our best qualities and he is always chiselling. And just because one has "fallen down" doesn't mean he was not sincere before in the beginning at towards the end. I think he is being incredibly honest ane courageous, some could go on for years for fear of the cnsequences of coming out. I admire him. I believe most sannyasis do their very best. But we are eternal and our journey is eternal, even in Goloka we haven't really arrived, our adjustment and improvement is unlimited, even the gopies feel they have deficit. So what for one apparent side-track, and whether we are guru or disciple when this happens, it can but a small glitch in the overall picture. I know some might find this very simplistic, but many things happen to the soul along the way and because it seems to fall outside our expected view and form of what and how things should be doesn't mean there is no benefit in it . Some sannyasis who go away come back some time later with a force to be reckoned with, because they have so much more experience and understanding, and depth of charachter, it's like they've burnt out the curiosity, got their thinking in order and burnt off the dross. yes profound spiritual realizations can come when you're out in the world, Krsna never leaves us. Then they come back to work and lead and give with profound insight, compassion, genuine humility and well-adjusted authority. In the mean time his disciples will go through their own tests, the sincere will go on albeit with much frustration and hurt for a while, but Krsna is more in our life than we think, even the lowlifes like myself he won't abandon. Things will sort themselves out.