What is memory?

[theist]

What is memory?Where does it reside?

 

 

Material scientists are baffled in their search for it.If memory is gross matter only, then how does it survive the molecular change that cells are continually experiencing?Something subtle must be existing that is untouched by that change.This includes the nuerons.But yet there are certain chemicals that help in improving the function of memory.Or the reverse can be true.Take an Alzheimer patient who has seeming lost his memory.Is the brain then simply a tool for memory to manifest through on the gross levels, those most concerned with our present conditioned life?

 

Most here will agree that memory is subtle, a constituent of the subtle body.If that is true then what happens when the subtle body is dissolved at liberation?Or would that only apply to sayuja-mukti?

 

Are all details then of the souls sojourn through material existence dissolved also?Does the pure soul also have a yet more subtle faculty of memory then that which is part of the subtle body?One which only houses memories connected to our relationship with Krsna?

 

Help understanding this topic is appreciated.

 

theist

[Guest guest]

Nice, interesting topic… got me!

I found this in the Vedabase. I'll look some more.

 

If there is no idea of God, then what kind of religion is that?

Interviewer: I don’t know.

Srila Prabhupada: It is bogus. People have no conception of God, and therefore they have no understanding of religion. That is the decline, and because religion is declining, the human beings are becoming more and more like animals.

“Animal” means that one has no memory. A dog comes when there are some eatables; I say “Hut!” and he goes away. But again he comes—he has no memory. So when our memory of God is reducing, that means that our human qualities are reducing. In the Kali-yuga these human qualities will be reduced. That means that people are becoming like cats and dogs.

 

ethos

[Guest guest]

memory is controlled by paramatma.

Your mind is working with the help of paramatma.

You think with the help of paramatma.

mem

[theist]

shiva Paramatma is controlling,sure.But my question is a little different as I am interested in learning about the structure of memory itself.

[ethos]

I suspect that shiva has nailed it.

 

Krsna says "from Me come memory and forgetfulness."

 

Mind, intelligence, and false ego are subtle material elements that are perceived from refined intelligence. The scientists use of empirical observations are useless in understanding these and other things beyond matter. Their limited methods can't perceive ghosts or psychic phenomenon, etc. Nor can they see the prescence of the Lord in the deities.

 

There are many attempts to acquire information these days in varied fields. Unfortunately, information is too often mistaken for knowledge. if your method or approach is not suitable for the object being studied, then it is irrational. A thermometer will not tell you the time.

 

Scientists are relentlessly engaged in pursuing the answers to your question and many others - including life itself.

 

However, if life and its concomitant symptoms are not grossly material, then a gross explanation is nothing but a bluff-which Prabhupada so expertly revealed.

 

I think you can pretty much categorize memory with love or honesty or fear or any other numerous emotions and feelings symptomatic of consciousnss and experience. It just is. And the field for understanding these things is spiritual and not material.

 

It's unlikely the material aspect will ever come in.I perceive your question to be similar in nature to one I once posed about the verses in Bg. 2.62 & 63:

 

While contemplating the objects of the senses, a person develops attachment for them, and from such attachment lust develops, and from lust anger arises.

 

From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost one falls down again into the material pool.

 

I wanted to know why from lust anger "necessarily" arises (as in the verse). It seems to me the rest of the verses were self-evident, but that one correlation was ambiguous at best since it is the exact opposite of the enjoying propensity in the material world. So I wanted to know the "mechanics of it."

 

Basically, I got some attitudes from devotees who wondered if I was "all together" I think.

 

It was explained to me 3 or 4 times by different persons (because I kept asking) that everything belongs to Krsna and a thief cannot find peace or happiness in transgressing the property of others.

 

Over time, I have come to accept this as an explanation wholly consistent with the doctrines and processes of a religious, spiritual discipline and have given up on my methodology of more mundane proof.

 

Anyway, I just felt "motivated" to suddenly reveal my mind and what I see as a similar experience. I will be wholly surprised if you get the answers in the format you requested.

 

Humbly yours - ethos.

[theist]

Okay let me rephrase it a bit.I was trying to start an exploration of memory,it seems so mysterious to me.

 

Scientists can prove that neurotransmitters such as acetycholine are instrumental in improving memory.

 

Or from the negative,they can show that when the hormone vasopressin is depleted in the brain,short term memory is impaired.

 

We say that memory is a constituent of the subtle body,part of intelligence.

 

Now I accept that the brain is being used as a tool of the memory.But I can't seem to come up with an example to help illustrate this in an intelligent way.I am not satified with just telling someone that I believe it and that is that.

 

There must be a way that this works out that is explainable.

 

So what is the metaphysical link between the brain and memory?

 

The other question is: What is the subtle bodies memory connection to the soul?

 

 

 

[muralidhar]

The eyes, ears and other senses experience sensations when they are stimulated by external objects such as light, sound, warmth, etc. When I studied psychology at University, we were taught that the eyes process the information the eyes have received. The eyes then send messages on to the brain. That is, the eyes create patterns of information (gestalts) that they send to the brain. The other senses may not do any of this pre-processing ... I'm not sure. Anyhow, the brain receives information from the senses and it makes meaningful patterns (gestalts) out of this information.

 

For instance, a brinjal (eggfruit) emits blue and red lightwaves. Blue and red lightwaves are at opposite ends of the spectrum, but the brain somehow forms a perception of the colour purple which it assigns to the pattern of information it is observing. This seems a little difficult to explain in a few words, but briefly what happens is that we have a perception of a purple brinjal and this perception we experience is something that exists only in our mind. Purple only exists in the mind, as there is no such thing as the colour of purple in nature. That is, we experince perceptions of the world, as this example shows, and we do not directly experience soundwaves, lightwaves, etc. All we ever experience, as thinking beings, is the perceptions we are presented by our brain. We live inside our heads (and hearts).

 

We all think that we possess a physical body within space and time, and this is certainly a fact - we do exist within space and time. But the perceptions I have of "the world" are simply my perception of the world. A person who is colourblind may have a quite different perception of the world from someone who is not colorblind; what to speak of the differences of perception between a man and an eagle, which has exceptional eyesight, or a whale, which has totally different perceptions of its surroundings.

 

According to the Sankhya philosophy (in Bhagavatam and other scriptures), the mind inhabits a body and depending upon the particular type of body the mind has, he will have a particular collection of senses and physical characteristics. However the mind itself is different from the body. The awareness of the mind continues to exist, even if the mind is forgetful of the body, as in dreams when we feel we are doing things such as flying in the sky, which we cannot do in a human body. Therefore, when the body dies the mind and perceptions continue to exist, with little change; and as a result of this we get born again and again, just like people who have recurring dreams.

 

The soul is consciousness, chit, and as such the soul in material existence tends to focus on the shadowy world of nature (chit-abhasa) which we attach ourselves to. This is more or less how memory works. Every one of us has our own personal tastes, personal feelings, personal desires, etc.. and these hazy feelings within our consciousness are reflecting on the physical brain. (By the way, the brain does not work like a computer, as the brain is wet and the brain functions in a very differently from any present day computers).

 

Anyhow, the life energy (prana) tends to circle in different centres of the brain according to your feelings and desires. Your thoughts are different from mine, and your hormones/emotions/brain-activity are vastly different from mine. It is a fact that with Alzheimers and other diseases the activity of the brain is impaired and a sufferer will lose particular sorts of memory. The memories relate to the present body of the individual, but the "mood" or consciousness of the individual continues to exist, even if the person forgets or becomes detached from their childhood memories.

 

If you are interested in Sankhya as taught in Bhagavatam, take a look at

http://www.mandala.com.au/subjective_evolution.htm

 

Murali

[theist]

A lot to chew on.Thanks murli.I'll check the link.

[tsaneladi]

I appreciate the posts on this link. Thank you all for the inspired dialogue

[Somesh Kumar]

Is it not enough to appreciate and wonder at Krishna's "svabhavika jnana bala kriya!" and leave the matter to rest?

[theist]

Somesh:"Is it not enough to appreciate and wonder at Krishna's "svabhavika jnana bala kriya!" and leave the matter to rest?"

 

I could answer better if I knew what svabhavika jnana bala kriya meant.Help me here.

 

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't try to understand these fundemental things that relate to our present life experience?

[Guest guest]

memory tests by scientists have been

baffling them for a while.

A scientists some time ago did an experiment

with mice.

He taught them to run a complex maze to get food,this took a while for the mice to learn.

Then he would do things to their brains.

He would take them out then put them in backward,upside down,take chunks out,

he even blended the brain up then put it back in.

guess what,they could always run the maze by

memory.

 

memory is stored by god,like a computer

you can access memory from, a storage

source,god is the storage house of memory,

giving you what you need.

[ethos]

Awesome!

[theist]

shiva, do you have a link to that study perchance?

 

Here is a post that came up at http://beliefnet.com on the reincarnation board.I would like to be able to intelligently respond but..Alas!Any help prabhus?

 

 

stef44

10/8/02 9:33 PM 1 out of 2

I have long believed that we inherit far more from our forbears than our cheekbones and eye color.

I believe that genetic memory includes real memories, stored in memory banks, and passed down to us via our DNA. I believe that the force of some some individual's personality, or the impact of events on their lives make the imprint stronger than others. I believe that this accounts for "child prodigies" for example, as well as certain phobias and fixations. I think recurrent dreams can reflect these memories. People who dream of certain homes, towns, or landscapes, may be reliving an ancester's experiences. This is what I think, and I invite discussion on this topic

 

 

[Somesh Kumar]

 

I could answer better if I knew what svabhavika jnana bala kriya meant.Help me here.

 

 

 

Svabhavika jnana bala kriya means that the memory and evrything else is functioning because of Krishna's natural (self originating)knowledge strength and work

 

 

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't try to understand these fundemental things that relate to our present life experience?

 

 

 

I mean to say that instead of going into the biological details of how memory works and all, it's better if we analyse about mind (philosophically) and then glorify Krishna for creating it!!!

 

[Guest guest]

 

i can't give a link ,though one may exist,

I read it in a book, called 'the holographic universe'.

 

Memory is interesting ,but definetly not related to DNA.

The mind is seperate from the workings of the body.

 

For instance how do we access memory ?

 

Without any actual device or method of gaining memory

like one would on a computer,we simply remember.

 

This is done by God,memory is not stored in our brain,

if it was how do we access it ?

How do you remember who you are on a moment to moment

basis ?

We have zero knowledge concerning the access of memory,

yet people remember all sorts of things.

 

Information is accessible to our mind without our

know;lege of how that happens,imagine turning on your computer then trying to acess information without actually doing anything.

You would be unsuccessfull.

The same thing for our minds,we do not know how to access memory,yet it is instantly accessible or not accessible

as the case may be.

If we were storing information in our brain we would need some kind of mechanism for retreiving the info,

otherwise how do we access it ?

How do we seperate and search for the proper memory,

how do we have the memory to search for the memory ?

 

[theist]

Somesh:"I mean to say that instead of going into the biological details of how memory works and all, it's better if we analyse about mind (philosophically) and then glorify Krishna for creating it!!!"

 

Yes, no doubt.But when speaking to others about a life beyond this physical body it helps to know a little of their views and to be able to bridge the gap,so to speak.For example, the post just previous to your last one.I would like to be able to help her see the limitations in her idea of memory being passed down via DNA.Presently I am unable to.

 

 

[theist]

Holographic Universe.I have heard of that book though never read it.I'll check it out.That sounds like it is a perfect example of what I am looking for at this point.

 

Remember Krsna

[ethos]

Nice insights Shiva! Resplendent!

[Somesh Kumar]

 

stef44

10/8/02 9:33 PM 1 out of 2

 

I have long believed that we inherit far more from our forbears than our cheekbones and eye color.

I believe that genetic memory includes real memories, stored in memory banks, and passed down to us via our DNA. I believe that the force of some some individual's personality, or the impact of events on their lives make the imprint stronger than others.

 

 

OK! We can agree with her about DNA and inheritance etc. It's not illogical. But, the question is

1. Why a certain individual is chosen to inherit a rich person and another individual is chosen to inherit a poor person?

 

2. Why a certain individual is born handicapped and another individual is born with some great ability?

 

So, here we can see the influence of Karma. So, DNA also has a part to play, but the DNA effects come on the basis of the previous karma of the person!

 

I believe that this accounts for "child prodigies" for example, as well as certain phobias and fixations. I think recurrent dreams can reflect these memories.

 

 

Even if we assume that this is the cause of child prodigies. But who has made the DNA's in the first place? Can a human being make DNA and integrate it to a person?

 

People who dream of certain homes, towns, or landscapes, may be reliving an ancester's experiences.

 

 

May be! But, first of all why the person was born in that family?

 

So we can conclude that Karma plays a more important role and that in fact determines what DNA a person is going to have in his next life...

 

Do you agree prabhus???

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

DNA doesn't store memory,it stores the information pertaining to the physical body.

 

There is no gene for memory,only for bodily parts.

 

Memory isn't passed down from your parents,memory

isn't encoded into your brain.

 

Imagine God as a vast information storage system,

we are linked to that system through our mind,

we are given memory as God sees fit.

 

Imagine God's mind as an ocean,our mind is a drop in that ocean.

 

DNA cannot store memory,when you experience something,

that memory has no way to be stored into DNA.

 

DNA is not affected by your thoughts.

 

 

[theist]

Somesh,

 

Your points are well taken.I do agree.The problem I face is that most people that think like steff above don't believe the person is separate from the body.Therefore the phenomenon of memory must be caused by some molecular action or another in the brain, in their way of thinking.

 

We can't say that the brain has no involvement,because it can be demonstrated that it does have involvment.People lose their memory due to various traumtic injuries for example,or diseases like Alzheimers.

 

The rat experiment from shiva's post will help to shake their misguided faith in the "all in the brain" hypothesis.I am now thinking that a well documented out of body example may help also.You know,someone having an operation and are able to describe it, even while their body is unconscious.

 

I am also curious as to the souls memory.Will we remember details of our material experience or does that become left behind at liberation in favor of the pure impressions of the spiritual world?But that also gets involved with pre-existing rasa etc. so may not be conceivable to me from where I am pesently.

 

Hmmm..how to prove memory is subtle?

 

Haribol

[Guest guest]

 

the soul doesn't have memory.

We are a part of the soul of God,our mind is also

part of god,while both our soul and mind are part

of God,they are seperate things.

We never lose who we are,our mind is composed of

our soul interacting with the world,our mind changes,

we learn things,we are not our minds.

 

Our soul never changes,our mind is constantly changing,

our minds are like empty books being filled with information which we use to interact with reality.

 

The book can be wiped clean at a moments notice,or not.

It has nothing to do with our efforts,it totally up to God.

 

[theist]

Hi shiva,

 

Just got back from the library looking for holgraphic universe.It was out but I'm next on the list.

 

You said:"the soul doesn't have memory."

 

I'm not sure about that.I can picture the experiences of this world never being revisited due to being absorbing in rasa with Krsna.But I can't picture individuality without memory.

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

[ethos]

I agree with you Theist. The verses below include memory in the conscious process:

 

Bg. 2.62 & 63:

 

While contemplating the objects of the senses, a person develops attachment for them, and from such attachment lust develops, and from lust anger arises.

 

From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost one falls down again into the material pool.

 

It must be a fundamental symptom of consciousness; we are to "remember our duty" and "remember who we are." We call the soul our own, even though it's provided by Krsna. Surely, we can do the same with memory.