Jiva is like a spark of Brahman

[raga]

 

In regard to this discussion about whether the jiva-atma is a satchitananda being, could you please advise me what the individual atma is if he is not an atomic particle of brahman?

There are many verses in the Upanishads saying the self is brahman, and brahman is satchitananda, so I would be interested to see what can be said to the contrary.

 

 

Here are some interesting references from Bhaktisiddhanta's Vivriti-commentary on Sri Siksastakam in regards to Brahman being Sat Cit Ananda.

 

<font color="darkred">"Learned scholars of the absolute truth have described the supreme non-dual substance known as advaya-jnana-vastu in three different stages. When that non-dual substance is realised exclusively by knowledge, or in others words through the function of the cit potency, it is referred to as Brahman. When realised through the combined functions of the sat and cit potencies, it is referred to as Paramatma, and when realised through the functions of all potencies sat, cit, and ananda, that supreme truth is referred to as Bhagavan."</font color>

 

Can you cite some references about the jiva's being a particile of Brahman? Gita says "mamaivamsa jiva-loke...", Mahaprabhu says they are of tatastha-sakti.

[raga]

 

Muralidhara wrote:<hr>Look at Brhadaranyaka Upanishad 2.4.12 and the whole of chapter 4

 

 

Brihad Aranyaka, second Adhyaya, fourth Brahmana has only five verses.

 

I read through the entire fourth Adhyaya, but could not find a verse relevant to the discussion at hand. Could you refer me to something more specific please?

 

The fourth adhyaya (4.2.4.) had a classical "neti neti" presentation, which was interesting to note.

 

<font color="darkblue">sa eSa neti netyAtmAgRhyo na hi gRhyate 'zIryo na hi zIryate 'saGgo na hi sajyate 'sito na vyathate na riSyaty.

 

"He (Atman) can only be described by No, no! He is incomprehensible, for he cannot be comprehended; he is undecaying, for he cannot decay; he is not attached, for he does not attach himself; he is unbound, he does not suffer, he does not perish."</font color>

 

The theme in many Upanishads is the introduction of the all-pervasiveness of Brahman through statements such as "The sun, it is only that, Brahman. The earth, it is only that, Brahman." If we wish to cite verses from such passages, we must also then conclude that jada-prakriti is sat-cit-ananda.

[raga]

 

OBL Kapoor quotes Sri Jiva Goswami from Paramatma Sandharba, with various references.

 

 

Can you cite some relevant references, please? I'd love to look them up.

[raga]

 

Below are the quotes from Bhagavatam I gave previously.

 

 

The verses you cited describe how the self is beyond matter, and how when one realizes this, he attains brahma-darshanam, in other words, he realizes the self as nondifferent from brahman. Very much akin to the passage I quoted from Brihad Aranyaka above. I fail to see how either of them are relevant to the point being discussed.

[raga]

 

I spoke with Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj about whether the soul's transcendental form is gifted to the soul by the swarup shakti, or whether the latent form of the self becomes manifest as the transcendental form of an associate of Sri Sri Radha Govinda.

Reference was made to Brahma Samhita verse 36.

 

 

Verse 36 of Brahma Samhita:

 

<font color="darkblue">yad-bhAva-bhAvita-dhiyo manujAs tathaiva

samprApya rUpa-mahimAsana-yAna-bhUSAH

sUktair yam eva nigama-prathitaiH stuvanti

govindam Adi-puruSaM tam ahaM bhajAmi

 

"I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is praised with the hymns of the Vedas, to whom the hearts of people are filled with emotion, and who thus certainly attain the greatness of the form, seat, carriage and ornament."</font color>

 

The word being used is "samprApya", "to completely reach", "to completely obtain". Sri Jiva comments:

 

<font color="darkblue">atha tasya sAdhaka-cayeSv api bhakteSu vadAnyatvaM vadann ity eSu kaimutyam Aha yad-bhAveti | yathA samAna-guNa-zIla-vayo-vilAsa-vezaiz cety Agama-rItyA nitya-tat-saGginAM tat sAmyaM |

 

"How munificent is the Lord towards His practicing devotees (sadhakas)? This is being explained. The scriptures tell how they attain similar form, qualities, habits, age, pastimes and clothes as His eternal associates."</font color>

 

This verse hardly yields support to the interpretation of the latent form of the soul becoming manifest.

 

[muralidhar]

madhava wrote:

 

The verses you cited describe how the self is beyond matter, and how when one realizes this, he attains brahma-darshanam, in other words, he realizes the self as nondifferent from brahman. Very much akin to the passage I quoted from Brihad Aranyaka above. I fail to see how either of them are relevant to the point being discussed.

<hr>

 

Realizing the self as non-different from brahman, one realizes the sat-chit-ananda nature of one's own self. Is it not so?

 

The jiva is a spark of brahman, as described in the verses about how souls are like sparks emanating from fire.

 

But what do you say in regard to kapoor's statement:

"Sri Chaitanya defines mukti as the attainment of the Jiva's natural state: muktirhatvanyatharupam svarupena vyavasthitih - Bhag 2.10.6, cited in CC Madya XXIV, 43."

In its natural state the Jiva is a part (amsa) of Bhagavan and its natural function is to serve Him.

- The philosophy and religion of Sri Caitanya, chapter 9, "Jiva - The Finite Self".

 

and again:

 

"In his description of the attributes of the Jiva, Sri Jiva (Goswami) follows Jamatra Muni of the Visisthadvaita school, who lived before Ramanuja. (page 132)

 

[muralidhar]

nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman

tam atma-stham ye 'nupasyanti dhiras tesam santih sasvati netaresam

(Katha Upanisad 2.2.13)

"He is the eternal (nityo) among the eternals (nityanam), the conscious (cetanas) among the conscious (cetananam), the one among many who grants their desires. By knowing the Lord (devan) - by discrimination (samkhya) and yoga - one becomes free from all miseries."

 

nityo = sat

cetanas = chit

The word ananda is not mentioned, so I guess I will need to go and find a verse that states that cit is imbued with ananda. Is this really necessary? There are verses in the gita to that effect, aren't there?

 

sa yo ha vai tat paramam brahma veda brahmaiva bhavati

(Mundaka Upanisad 3.2.9)

"One who knows the Supreme Brahman attains Brahman."

 

aninas catma badhyate bhoktr-bhavat jnatva devam mucyate sarva-pasaih

Svetasvatar Upanisad (1.9)

"The soul, not being the Lord, is bound due to being an enjoyer. By knowing the Lord 'devam', he is freed from all distress."

 

This verse, then, leads us to gayatri mantra wherein the Lord who is full of potency (bhargo) is named Deva:

bhargo devasya dhimahi

 

Murali

[Guest guest]

Just thought I'd add a quick note to this discussion. It seems to me that the nature of the soul as sat chit ananda is self evident. It is obvious that we 'exist' as does inanimate matter, but the difference between us and matter is consciousness - chit - of the fact that we exist. As far as ananda goes, it is obvious that all beings are after some sense of fulfillment. It is an innate hankering to seek after love and it is in love only that the heart finds it's ultimate satisfaction. At anyrate, it seems quite obvious that we not only exist and that we know it but that we also 'feel'and have emotions.

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

[raga]

I wonder if either of you (Muralidhar & Audarya) read the essay I drafted together. I propose a dual solution through examining sat, cit and ananda from two perspectives, namely their influence under svarupa-shakti and in this world.

 

 

[muralidhar]

Madhava I read your article. I cannot see where you have given a dual solution to anything, except in regards to the dual interpretation of the concept of samvit. But what I did notice is this conclusion you presented:

 

"The natural conclusion is that at the time of perfection, the mukta-jiva unites with a particular parsada-deha (associate-body), a manifestation of the Lord's antaranga-sakti in the spiritual world, especially reserved for him."

 

This is your view. As also expressed by Kunja Vihari Das.

 

This would seem to imply that the soul and the body of a libearated devotee are different from each other. But I believe I can find quotes to say that the soul and body of the liberated devotees is one and the same.

 

What is more, I asked Srila Gurudev about verse 36 of Brahma Samhita, and he replied that the latent potential of the self becomes manifest in a form suitable for service. Srila Sridhar Maharaj, when asked about things like this, would usually say, "First realize the soul, then you can discuss it". But all too often I find myself losing myself in intellectual discussions about issues that a person in illusion (such as myself) can not grasp by means of mundane scholarly study. So it is better that I just spend more time chanting Hare Krishna in future and not splitting hairs in scholarly debates, I think.

 

Still, a further point comes to mind. Perhaps a little unorthodox, but I believe it is valid. According to teachers of the mystic kundalini process a soul will meditate on one chakra and the energy will go from the lower chakra to the next chakra, and at that time the self will feel illuminated with new knowledge at that new level of chakra-realization. The life energy within (prana) will manifest in a new flowering for that new level of understanding, that new level of chakra attained. So let me suggest that just as the energy can go from being a bud to a flower, and to an open flower which has a glowing chakra of energy and knowledge within it (I had some experience of this, when I was seventeen), so similarly the latent form of the self (jiva-atma) can manifest great treasures of eternal-knowledge-blissfullness(sat-chit-ananda) from within.

 

What more can I say?

 

Perhaps I can just repeat that the Visisthadvata, Dwaita and Suddha-advaita philosophies all say that the jiva self is sat-chit-ananda, but caught in illusion. How to get out.. that is the real issue.

 

Murali

 

 

[raga]

 

Madhava I read your article. I cannot see where you have given a dual solution to anything, except in regards to the dual interpretation of the concept of samvit.

 

 

I am quoting from what I wrote:

 

<font color="darkblue">Sri Jiva further describes the function of samvit in Bhagavat Sandarbha (117) as being the energy of both knowledge and ignorance (saMvid eva jJAnAjJAna-zaktiH). This indicates that there is a need for a dual interpretation of the concept, one in the context of sac-cid-ananda that functions under the direct shelter of the inner potency of the Lord, and another in the context of existence in the material world. This dual interpretation is supported by Jiva (BS 117):

 

atra kramAd utkarSeNa sandhinI-saMvid-dhlAdinyA jJeyAH | tatra ca sati ghaTAnAM ghaTatvam iva sarveSAM satAM vastUnAM pratIter nimittam iti kvacit sattA-svarUpatvena AmnAto'py asau bhagavAn sad eva saumyedam agra AsId ity atra sad-rUpatvena vyApadizyamAnA mayA sattAM dadhAti dhArayati ca sA sarva-deza-kAla-dravyAdi-prAptikarI sandhinI | tathA saMvid-rUpo?pi yayA saMvetti saMvedayati ca sA saMvit | tathA hlAda-rUpo?pi yayA saMvid utkaTa-rUpayA taM hlAdaM saMvetti saMvedayati ca sA hlAdinIti vivecanIyam |

 

"Thus in a sequence of superiority sandhini, samvid and hladini are understood. As all pots are made by a pot maker, similarly whatever exists is the outcome of a cause. In the scriptures (Chan. Up. 6.2.1) it is said that Bhagavan exists on account of His own nature: 'O gentle Sir, in the beginning only He existed.'

 

His destroying and creating, bestowing and preserving existence at all places, all times and all circumstances, is caused by sandhini. Through samvit, He knows and causes others to know. Through hladini, the foremost of all, He rejoices and causes joy, thus it is considered."

 

Thus it can be understood that certainly the aspects of existence, awareness and joy exist in all living entities, in as much as the living entities exist, are aware of anything or experience any feelings. However, the question that demands our attention is whether the faculties of sat, cit and ananda, which were outlined by Krishna Das earlier on (CC 1.4.64-65, 60) in the context of that which is under the auspices antaranga-sakti, exist inherently in the jiva who resides in the material world. It is clear that the sandhini-aspect of the eternal associates of the Lord exists as their spiritual form, the samvit-aspect exists as their cognizance of a particular relationship with the Lord, and the hladini-aspect exists as their jubilant emotions for the Lord. Do these qualities exist inherently in the baddha-jiva?</font color>

 

 

 

"The natural conclusion is that at the time of perfection, the mukta-jiva unites with a particular parsada-deha (associate-body), a manifestation of the Lord's antaranga-sakti in the spiritual world, especially reserved for him."

This is your view. As also expressed by Kunja Vihari Das.

This would seem to imply that the soul and the body of a libearated devotee are different from each other. But I believe I can find quotes to say that the soul and body of the liberated devotees is one and the same.

 

 

If the jivatma unites with a certain form of svarupa-sakti, how can there remain a difference between the body and soul of the mukta at that time?

[raga]

Out of curiosity I checked how A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami comments on the topic of sat-cit-ananda in his purports on CC Adi-lila 4th chapter. I assume he draws the contents mainly from Bhaktivinoda's Amrita Pravaha Bhasya and Bhaktisiddhanta's Anubhasya here, as is done throughout his purports. Some excerpts of interest follow.

 

<hr>

<font color="darkred">"Each of the three divisions of the internal potency -- the sandhini, samvit and hladini energies -- influences one of the external potencies by which the conditioned souls are conducted. Such influence manifests the three qualitative modes of material nature, proving definitely that the living entities, the marginal potency, are eternally servitors of the Lord and are therefore controlled by either the internal or the external potency."

 

CC. Adi 4.62, purport

 

 

"Aside from the parents of the Personality of Godhead, all the other paraphernalia of His existence are also essentially a manifestation of sandhini-sakti, or a transformation of visuddha-sattva. To make this more clear, it may be said that this sandhini-sakti of the internal potency maintains and manifests all the variegatedness of the spiritual world. In the kingdom of God, the Lord?s servants and maidservants, His consorts, His father and mother and everything else are all transformations of the spiritual existence of sandhini-sakti. The existential sandhini-sakti in the external potency similarly expands all the variegatedness of the material cosmos, from which we can have a glimpse of the spiritual field."

 

CC. Adi 4.65, purport

 

 

"The activities of the samvit-sakti produce the effect of cognition. Both the Lord and the living entities are cognizant. Sri Krsna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, has full knowledge of everything everywhere, and therefore there are no hindrances to His cognition. He can have knowledge merely by glancing over an object, whereas innumerable impediments block the cognition of ordinary living beings. The cognition of the living beings has three divisions: direct knowledge, indirect knowledge and perverted knowledge. Sense perception of material objects by the mundane senses, such as the eye, ear, nose and hand, always produces definitely perverted knowledge. This illusion is a presentation of the material energy, which is influenced by the samvit-sakti in a perverted manner. Negative cognition of an object beyond the reach of sense perception is the way of indirect knowledge, which is not altogether imperfect but which produces only fragmentary knowledge in the form of impersonal spiritual realization and monism. But when the samvit factor of cognition is enlightened by the hladini potency of the same internal energy, they work together, and only thus can one attain knowledge of the Personality of Godhead. The samvit-sakti should be maintained in that state. Material knowledge and indirect spiritual knowledge are by-products of the samvit-sakti."

 

CC. Adi 4.67, purport

 

 

"The product of the hladini-sakti is love of Godhead, which has two divisions -- namely, pure love of Godhead and adulterated love of Godhead. Only when the hladini-sakti emanates from Sri Krsna and is bestowed upon the living being to attract Him does the living being become a pure lover of God. But when the same hladini-sakti is adulterated by the external, material energy and emanates from the living being, it does not attract Krsna; on the contrary, the living being becomes attracted by the glamor of the material energy. At that time instead of becoming mad with love of Godhead, the living being becomes mad after material sense enjoyment, and because of his association with the qualitative modes of material nature, he is captivated by its interactions of distressful, unhappy feelings."

 

CC. Adi 4.68, purport</font color>

 

<hr>

 

[raga]

Murali, I am duplicating an old post of mine in reply to you. Could you look up the reference Bhaktivinoda presents in his Tattva-sutra from sruti-sastra, as well as the Sanskrit for the vedanta-sutra reference?

 

<hr>

In reply to:

-- in the commentary to this verse (Gaudiya Math edition of 1979), a verse of the Brahma Sutra is quoted in this connection, in which it is stated:

Every object is endowed with two components, its intrinsic form (swarup) and its characteristic nature (pravriti). The form of the jivatma is knowledge (jnana) and its nature or inclination is love (anuraga).

<hr>

 

I find the following entries in my translation of the same:

 

"In the Sruti-sastra it is said:

 

"Eternity, knowledge and bliss are part of the soul's nature."

 

In the Vedanta-sutra (4.1.3) it is said:

 

"The wise know and teach the science of the soul."

 

Could you provide the original Sanskrit from your edition to the reference from sruti-sastra? I would be interested. I wonder why there's no exact reference there, just a generic "sruti-sastra".

 

Vedanta Sutra 4.1.3 reads as follows:

 

Atmeti tUpagacchanti grAhayanti ca

 

I cannot make the text you present out of this sutra no matter how much I try. Could you confirm if it is actually 4.1.3? Also the word "anurAga" does not appear anywhere in the Vedanta-sutra.