karthik_v Posted September 30, 2002 Report Share Posted September 30, 2002 Here is a wonderful, very objective and highly thought provoking article written by the eminent historian Koenraad Elst: http://pws.the-ecorp.com/~chbrugmans/articles/missions.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karthik_v Posted September 30, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2002 The churches lick the boot that kicks them, and bite the hand that feeds them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 If Christianity is true, then we should all embrace it, no matter where it originated. Conversely, if Christianity is untrue, we should inform everyone that a quack belief is being promoted. And we should imitate the missionaries in extending our heartfelt love to them by patiently liberating them from their false religion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 Any religion has shades of truth and untruth in it. The truth is the subject matter of all religions - brahman or spirit. In that sense Christianity and Islam are also religions of truth. This explains why people of all religions exhibit spiritual nature. But most religions have social, political and economic sides to it and these lead to the presence of untruth in them. Most often religionists turn away from the core subject matter - brahman - and end up wasting time on temporary things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 Perhaps the best course of action is to appreciate the truth where we find it.If you perceive even but a small spark of it in someone then why not try to fan that spark into a flame? Veda is all pervading.More then just some ancient books.When it appears it behooves us to pay due honor.If it appears to be mixed then just take the essence and leave the rest. This is the mistake most Christian's make.They can't appreciate the same truth when it appears to them in a different cultural or religious context.Therefore they come in criticizing and offending that which they have little or no knowledge of. Is that the path we wish to follow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karthik_v Posted October 1, 2002 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 Dear Ram prabhu, Any religion has shades of truth and untruth in it. The truth is the subject matter of all religions - brahman or spirit. In that sense Christianity and Islam are also religions of truth. I think it has become fashionable to give such superficial and pacifist answers. If a religion is about the eternal truth, then it should have no beginning or end. Both Xianity and Islam had a specific beginning. They fail this criterian. I am sure even Nazism had some shades of truth to it. Would you have considered it a true religion had Hitler declared himself as the Son of the God or as THE Prophet? Dear Theist prabhu, Perhaps the best course of action is to appreciate the truth where we find it.If you perceive even but a small spark of it in someone then why not try to fan that spark into a flame? A valid point. Does it extend to Advaita also? Or does t remain condemned for eternity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 Knowledge should be taken from anywhere, just as gold is taken even from a dirty place. Any statement that is in line with the Vedas is apaurusheya regardless of the language it may be conveyed in. The root form of all knowledge is beyond langauge, it is within the consciousness. Externally we may manifest it in the form of vaikhari sound through langauges, but the actual meaning is beyond all language. Thus even our Vedas are mundane sound on the external level, but when communicated to the soul they manifest their original form as shabda. The same apaurusheya knowledge of the Vedas can manifest in a different mundane dialect, but the essential nature remains the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 karthik, Not only to Advaita but everywhere else as well.If an advaitan says to me you are not the body.I agree.If a buddhist says this world is suffering I agree. If a Hindu or Christian or Muslum say all things come from God I agree.But that doesn't mean I accept the whole package that they may offer.I take it all point by point to the best of my ability.I have yet to find any concepts that eclipse what I see in Gaudiya Vaisnavism, so I try to see through those eyes. Going on a crusade against any group that may be learning a more preliminary study of God consciousness seems like a sixth grade class declaring war on the second grade class because their math books are too basic in comparison. It smacks of sectarianism and is not indicative of a true resident of the Higher realms. Christians need to know something specific about the nature of the soul and transmigration for one thing.Better than trying to defeat them in some imagined "war for the glory of truth" would be to find one person that is open and patiently explain something that you have learned in these regards. Afterall the same Lord who lives in one's heart lives in the heart of 'the other'.If we try to help them grow then for certain the Lord will see to our growth. Hare Krsna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somesh Kumar Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Dear Theist prabhu, I fully agree with your view. After all Krishna said " Sarvasya chaaham hrdi sannivishtam" and here sarvasya includes everyone in this world. To recognize and respect everyone" Pandita sama darshinah " is one of the most important qualities for being recognized by Krishna. Is'nt it??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 The Controversy Despite all of this literature continuously being cranked out and the significance of the issue, in the public at large there is a serious lack of formal and broad education regarding religion and mythology, and most individuals are highly uninformed in this area. Concerning the issue of Christianity, for example, the majority of people are taught in most schools and churches that Jesus Christ was an actual historical figure and that the only controversy regarding him is that some people accept him as the Son of God and the Messiah, while others do not. However, whereas this is the raging debate most evident in this field today, it is not the most important. Shocking as it may seem to the general populace, the most enduring and profound controversy in this subject is whether or not a person named Jesus Christ ever really existed. Although this debate may not be evident from publications readily found in popular bookstores1, when one examines this issue closely, one will find a tremendous volume of literature that demonstrates, logically and intelligently, time and again that Jesus Christ is a mythological character along the same lines as the Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Sumerian, Phoenician, Indian or other godmen, who are all presently accepted as myths rather than historical figures2. Delving deeply into this large body of work, one uncovers evidence that the Jesus character is based upon much older myths and heroes from around the globe. One discovers that this story is not, therefore, a historical representation of a Jewish rebel carpenter who had physical incarnation in the Levant 2,000 years ago. In other words, it has been demonstrated continually for centuries that this character, Jesus Christ, was invented and did not depict a real person who was either the "son of God" or was "evemeristically" made into a superhuman by enthusiastic followers3. History and Positions of the Debate This controversy has existed from the very beginning, and the writings of the "Church Fathers" themselves reveal that they were constantly forced by the pagan intelligentsia to defend what the non-Christians and other Christians ("heretics")4 alike saw as a preposterous and fabricated yarn with absolutely no evidence of it ever having taken place in history. As Rev. Robert Taylor says, "And from the apostolic age downwards, in a never interrupted succession, but never so strongly and emphatically as in the most primitive times, was the existence of Christ as a man most strenuously denied."5 Emperor Julian, who, coming after the reign of the fanatical and murderous "good Christian" Constantine, returned rights to pagan worshippers, stated, "If anyone should wish to know the truth with respect to you Christians, he will find your impiety to be made up partly of the Jewish audacity, and partly of the indifference and confusion of the Gentiles, and that you have put together not the best, but the worst characteristics of them both."6 According to these learned dissenters, the New Testament could rightly be called, "Gospel Fictions."7 A century ago, mythicist Albert Churchward said, "The canonical gospels can be shown to be a collection of sayings from the Egyptian Mythos and Eschatology."8 In Forgery in Christianity, Joseph Wheless states, "The gospels are all priestly forgeries over a century after their pretended dates."9 Those who concocted some of the hundreds of "alternative" gospels and epistles that were being kicked about during the first several centuries C.E. have even admitted that they had forged the documents.10 Forgery during the first centuries of the Church's existence was admittedly rampant, so common in fact that a new phrase was coined to describe it: "pious fraud."11 Such prevarication is confessed to repeatedly in the Catholic Encyclopedia.12 Some of the "great" church fathers, such as Eusebius13, were determined by their own peers to be unbelievable liars who regularly wrote their own fictions of what "the Lord" said and did during "his" alleged sojourn upon the earth.14 The Proof The assertion that Jesus Christ is a myth can be proved not only through the works of dissenters and "pagans" who knew the truth - and who were viciously refuted or murdered for their battle against the Christian priests and "Church Fathers" fooling the masses with their fictions - but also through the very statements of the Christians themselves, who continuously disclose that they knew Jesus Christ was a myth founded upon more ancient deities located throughout the known ancient world. In fact, Pope Leo X, privy to the truth because of his high rank, made this curious declaration, "What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"15 (Emphasis added.) As Wheless says, "The proofs of my indictment are marvellously easy." http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Was the New Testament Composed by Therapeuts? In 1829 Rev. Taylor adeptly made the case that the entire Gospel story was already in existence long before the beginning of the Common Era and was probably composed by the monks at Alexandria called "Therapeuts" in Greek and "Essenes" in Egyptian, both names meaning "healers."113 This theory has stemmed in part from the statement of early church father Eusebius, who, in a rare moment of seeming honesty, "admitted . . . that the canonical Christian gospels and epistles were the ancient writings of the Essenes or Therapeutae reproduced in the name of Jesus."114 Taylor also opines that "the travelling Egyptian Therapeuts brought the whole story from India to their monasteries in Egypt, where, some time after the commencement of the Roman monarchy, it was transmuted in Christianity."115 In addition, Wheless evinces that one can find much of the fable of "Jesus Christ" in the Book of Enoch116, which predated the supposed advent of the Jewish master by hundreds of years.117 According to Massey, it was the "pagan" Gnostics - who included members of the Essene/Therapeut and Nazarene118 brotherhoods, among others - who actually carried to Rome the esoteric (gnostic) texts containing the Mythos, upon which the numerous gospels, including the canonical four, were based. Wheless says, "Obviously, the Gospels and other New Testament booklets, written in Greek and quoting 300 times the Greek Septuagint, and several Greek Pagan authors, as Aratus, and Cleanthes, were written, not by illiterate Jewish peasants, but by Greek-speaking ex-Pagan Fathers and priests far from the Holy Land of the Jews."119 Mead averred, "We thus conclude that the autographs of our four Gospels were most probably written in Egypt, in the reign of Hadrian."120 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Mithra, Sungod of Persia The story of Mithra precedes the Christian fable by at least 600 years. According to Wheless, the cult of Mithra was, shortly before the Christian era, "the most popular and widely spread 'Pagan' religion of the times." Mithra has the following in common with the Christ character: Mithra was born on December 25th. He was considered a great traveling teacher and master. He had 12 companions or disciples. He performed miracles. He was buried in a tomb. After three days he rose again. His resurrection was celebrated every year. Mithra was called "the Good Shepherd." He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah." He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb. His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ. Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected. His religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper."52 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 You can find anything being said about any subject.So what.Atheists write books also.Does that mean God is a myth? Try turning the same attention onto the Bhagavatam.What proof is there that Varaha existed?Or any of the characters mentioned in the Puranas.You can spend your time visiting the speculations of mundane academics if you like.The truth will never be known by that approach however. We get so confused by trusting the mind.For instance where is your proof that I exist?Or anyone else for that matter.It could just be you dreaming that you are reading a post from another person. One can be freed from the world of doubt only by the grace of Krsna and His devotees. I'll say this again.If you really want to know if Christ is a real being,and are unwilling to accept Prabhupada's statements glorifying him, then why not ask the Lord in the heart to reveal he truth to you on this matter?Or do you think He is also a myth?Why waste vauable time searching the internet for sites that support your preconceived ideas?Anything can be found on the internet.We must go to a Source far deeper than Google. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Jesus is a myth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Well for certain 'guest' birth and death is not a myth.Going from the speculations of one so-called scholar to another will not solve that problem. You don't accept Christ as an avatar, that's your right.I do, that's my right.But I'm in agreement with persons like Bhaktisiddhanta and Prabhupada,you are in agreement with professor frog and friends.Take your choice and take your chances. Good day and Hare Krsna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Jesus is a myth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 You obviously just want to fight.I don't.I have this internal war that takes precedent.If you need the last word feel free. Goodbye, Hare Krsna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karthik_v Posted October 2, 2002 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Theist prabhuji, Your responses to Guest: You can find anything being said about any subject.So what.Atheists write books also.Does that mean God is a myth? Not at all. It only means that Jesus is a myth. You don't accept Christ as an avatar, that's your right. Is there a shastric basis to assume that Jesus was an avatar? I am sure that somebody out there thinks that Sai Baba is an avatar too? I am sure that somebody believes that Hitler was an avatar. I am not sure that any avatar would have ever been a racist and a supporter of slavery, as Jesus had been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 There is no Shastric Basis. There scriptures have been written and rewritten many times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 It is possible that Jesus is a myth but the biblical stories do have spiritual value. There are many Christians who live a good life due to their belief in Jesus. Also there are many stories and instructions in Bible that are of spiritual value. For some one who is spiritually inclined, it is important to know about the soul. Christianity has definitely taught people about the soul - atleast to some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 ram,I am curious to know if you consider Krsna a myth as well.For instance do you accept that Krsna was born as described in the Bhagavatam, fully dressed etc.5,000 years ago? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 It is not a question of do I consider Krishna or Jesus as a myth but is it possible to. Very great misssionaries who dedicated their lives for God by serving Jesus Christ considered Krishna a mere mythological character. Some even considered Him not even worth considering a good mythological character because He was such a rascal playboy!! By faith, we know that is not true. We accept Krishna is not a myth. For us He is not even just real but ABSOLUTELY REAL. And for advaitins only He is real - vAsudevam sarvam iti. In the same way, we may accept Jesus as real too. Then can one believe Santa Claus is real too ? Not so. Even though, we have faith, it has to be consistent with our observation, reason and realization. It is dogmatic and fanatical to say that faith cannot be questioned. Is it because we cannot answer ? Or are we too attached to the comfort of our faith more than truth itself ? My point is that is that there is a lot of truth in Christianity and I believe that it has to have basis in divinity. In the absence of concrete evidence I would beleive that Jesus existed. But not that his teaching is the highest or flawless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karthik_v Posted October 2, 2002 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Dear Ram Prabhu, In the absence of concrete evidence I would beleive that Jesus existed. Were you in a good mood when you wrote this? Do you seriously want someone to prove that Jesus DIDN'T exist? Can anyone prove a negative? I must say that you are re-defining the paradigms of logic. If your efforts continue, the line between logic and illogic would be blurred completely and we can all blissfully wait for the arrival of the next "Son of the God". In case he takes a bit longer, then hope that an imposter claiming visions in the desert arrives. There are many Christians who live a good life due to their belief in Jesus. Many lived a good life long before Jesus was born. Many atheists today are good. Is there a reason to believe that those societies that believed in Jesus had a higher distribution of goody goody sweet souls? If so, I will buy your argument. On the contrary, if I can show that Christian societies, inspired by the doctrines of the church, committed the most ghastly crimes, will you agree that Christianity is indeed all evil? Christianity has definitely taught people about the soul - atleast to some. Only to those who had surrendered their rational faculties. Jesus, the rebel Rabbi, had no clue about soul. All he was concerned was [with himself being] the sole [way to liberation]. Soul as a concept enters Christianity through Origen, only to be banished a little later by the petrified padre. Origen lived around the 5th century CE and he got his ideas from Greece, which in turn borrowed from Buddhism. Later the soul makes a re-entry into Christianity around the 12th century when Aquinos realizes that his religion is no more than a bundle of encyclicals [and contradictions] and decides to introduce a [poorly] plagiarised version of the soul from the east. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 2, 2002 Report Share Posted October 2, 2002 Ram, I am assuming that you are the same Rajaram that wrote that the Jesus of Christianity never existed.True? I asked:"ram,I am curious to know if you consider Krsna a myth as well.For instance do you accept that Krsna was born as described in the Bhagavatam, fully dressed etc.5,000 years ago?" You state not only was He not a myth but "ABSOLUTELY REAL". And above you also said:"Even though, we have faith, it has to be consistent with our observation, reason and realization." I am curious as to what you have reasoned and observed that convince you of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted October 3, 2002 Report Share Posted October 3, 2002 Is there a shastric basis to assume that Jesus was an avatar? What will you consider as shastric basis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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