How Long a Ghost?

[ethos]

Prabhupada says the following in Dialectic Spiritualism:

 

It is a fact that suicide is no solution. One just implicates himself more and more. If we kill the body given by God, we have to accept another body, or remain a ghost. If I live in this body eighty years, and then commit suicide, I have to remain a ghost for five years before I get a chance to receive another body. Of course, you may argue that since the soul is everlasting, it makes no difference whether the body is killed. It is alright if the body is annihilated, but you cannot deliberately kill the body because that is hindering its progress. The living entity is destined to live in a particular body, and if you destroy that body, he has to wait for another. This means that you are interfering with his spiritual evolution, his spiritual progress. Therefore you are liable for punishment.

 

Judging by what Prabhupada says, I'm guessing the soul is destined to live 100 years, so by shortening it by 20 with suicide a person pays 5 as a ghost. That's 1 to 4 or 4 to 1 ratio.

 

Anybody have any thoughts or knowledge on this ghostly punishment?

 

[theist]

ethos,

 

Maybe Prabhupada was not trying to be too specific and trying to give us just a general idea.It is possible that every situation would be handled a little differently by the powers that be.Who knows.

[ethos]

Prabhupada made an estimation. There must be a basis for it. He didn't have to use numbers to make a point.

 

Yes, every karmic situation is unique. Yet they are simultaneously the same in the big picture. The reactions you get and the laws you are subject to should be the same for everyone. Everyone is playing on the same field here. The standards are first established and then the exceptions discussed within the standard framework.

 

So what are these social formulas concerning ghostly bodies?

[Guest guest]

Bhaktajoy here.

 

Here is something from an nde site.Some insights r given.

 

The NDE / suicide connection

While there exists documented accounts of very beautiful near-death experiences resulting from suicide, there also exists hellish accounts. This suggests the act of suicide itself is not a factor in determining whether a person has a beautiful near-death experience or a hellish near-death experience. However, it is possible for a hellish spiritual condition already existing within a person to be carried over and continued after death. Many suicides are committed by people already experiencing a hell on earth for one reason or another. In this respect, death does not remove a pre-existing hellish spiritual condition unless this condition was caused by the brain. Many people who commit suicide are mentally ill. Because mental illness is a physical disorder of the brain, the mental illness ends with brain death and does not continue after death. This is true because near-death experiences have been reported by blind people who have regained their sight during their near-death experience. Other handicaps have reportedly been removed from near-death experiencers upon death.

 

Religious leaders sometimes warn people about suicide being an unforgivable sin leading to eternal damnation in hell. This is not what the near-death experience reveals. Near-death experiences do describe life as being an inescapable learning experience. Suicide has the ability to postpone this learning experience from being completed. Near-death experiences describe "hell" as being a temporary spiritual condition rather than a permanent place of torture.

 

Dr. George Ritchie learned during his near-death experience what happens to some people who commit suicide. According to Ritchie, the quality of life a person initially finds after suicide is influenced by their motive for committing it. He classifies suicide in the following three ways.

 

The first classification are those who kill themselves in order to hurt someone, get revenge, or to kill themselves out of hatred for someone else. According to Ritchie, these people "haunt" the living by being aware of every horrible consequence their suicide had on others.

The second classification are those who, because of mental illness, confusion, or a terminal illness, take their own life. Ritchie states these people are allowed many opportunities from God to grow in love just as any other person would who had not committed suicide. In other words, there are no negative consequences for them.

The third classification are those who kill themselves from drug, alcohol, or any other addiction. According to Ritchie, these people can become "stuck in limbo" trying in vain to satisfy their addiction until eventually something frees them. This condition is often called an "earthbound" condition.

Near-death experiences reveal there is no condemnation from God for our actions. The problem many suicides face after death is a difficulty forgiving themselves for the horror they put people through by taking their own life. One remedy for helping a suicide cope with this predicament comes from the Tibetan Book of the Dead, an ancient Buddhist book of the afterlife. The Book of the Dead is one of the oldest books on earth documenting near-death experiences. In my view, this source should be given great respect. The Book of the Dead mentions people who succeed in committing suicide and become imprisoned in the experience of their suicide. Accordingly, they can be freed from this condition through the prayers of the living and by them imagining streams of light pouring on them. Such actions free the person from the pain and confusion of their suicide. The Book of the Dead also mentions people have no choice but to follow any negative karma resulting from their suicide.

 

Near-death experiences report people choosing their own destiny in life before they are born. While this may be true, it may also be true that we change this destiny by committing suicide. This is assuming nobody is predestined to commit suicide. Near-death experiences reveal a perfect universal plan being worked out by God. Perhaps this perfect plan is not thwarted by suicide. There is no reason to believe it is. But if a person cuts short their destined time for life because of problems coping, these problems may not necessarily go away. These problems may also be complicated by the added burden of knowing the full horrible consequences of their action on others.

 

People who are thinking of killing themselves can learn a great deal from near-death experiences. Some near-death experiences suggest there may be nothing worse than rejecting God’s gift of life thereby destroying an opportunity for spiritual advancement. Not only that, some near-death experiencers have observed suicides existing in an earthbound condition of temporarily being "slaves" to every consequence of their act of suicide. Such souls have been observed hounding and hovering around living family members and friends trying in vain to seek forgiveness. Some of them have been observed existing in a grayish fog and shuffling around slowly with their heads down. Perhaps these earthbound souls become freed from this condition when their natural destined time for death occurs. This condition is very likely only temporary. Some near-death experiencers have even observed such souls being helped in the afterlife.

 

Sandra Rogers’ near-death experience is a good example of what can happen when a person unjustifiably cuts short their life. When she committed suicide, she was given only two choices by the being of light. One choice involved being revived and living out the rest of her days. (This was the choice she chose.) The other choice involved remaining in the light with the condition of having to reincarnate at a future time to re-experience everything that led her to commit suicide in the first place. Sandra’s near-death experience demonstrates how people must overcome their problems in this life or else face them again in a future life. In Sandra’s case, committing suicide did not solve anything. If we delay dealing with these problems by committing suicide, we may only compound them. Perhaps the greatest enemy we face is ourselves. Our problems may never go away unless we conquer them. Near-death experiences reveal people carrying their non-physical problems with them after death. Perhaps one of the reasons we are born into this world is to overcome such problems. If don’t overcome them, we may have to reincarnate until we do.

 

Another interesting near-death experience resulting from suicide is the near-death experience of Angie Fenimore. After committing suicide, Angie found herself in a hellish realm of psychic disconnection and torment. The anguish she experienced within herself in life had manifested itself in the spirit after death. A being of light, whom she identified as God, asked her, "Is this what you really want?" Angie realized none of the other suicides in this hellish condition were aware of God's presence. God told her, "Don't you know that this is the worst thing you could have done?" She realized then she had "thrown in the towel" and because of it, she had cut herself off from God and from His guidance. She felt trapped. She told God, "But my life is so hard." God’s reply was, "You think that was hard? It is nothing compared to what awaits you if you take your life. Life's supposed to be hard. You can't skip over parts. We have all done it. You must earn what you receive."

 

Angie’s near-death experience gives us a unique insight into unjustifiable suicide. It suggests that one of life’s purposes is to grow through suffering. It validates the truthfulness of the phase, "No pain. No gain." This principle is also found in the Bible where it describes how suffering creates character, wisdom, perseverance and strengthening of faith. Near-death experiences reveal the fact that everyone has a destiny to fulfill and a "mission" to complete. Part of this destiny may include suffering for the purpose of learning and growing. It probably also includes learning from past-life mistakes, paying back karmic debts and receiving karmic rewards. The fact that near-death experiencers are often told their time for death is not ready to happen, suggests our time of death is predetermined. Suicide can possibly prevent a person’s mission from being fulfilled. Sandra Rogers’ near-death experience suggests the remedy for this is reincarnation.

 

Many people commit suicide due to a mental illness. One of life's lessons may be to learn how to cope with depression and overcome it. An overwhelming desire to commit suicide is one of the biggest indicators of clinical depression. There are many medications available on the market that can reverse clinical depression. If a person is thinking of committing suicide because of depression, seeking medical help may be one of the smartest decisions of their life. Nevertheless, near-death experiences such as Dr. George Ritchie indicate that mentally ill people who commit suicide are given the same opportunities after death as those who do not.

 

 

[ethos]

Thanks Bhatajoy for taking the trouble to post your offering from another site.

 

It seems Dr. Ritchie tried suicide and then sought the confirmation of others through research and science; interesting. Maybe he was able to make a career resulting from his suicide.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Judging by what Prabhupada says, I'm guessing the soul is destined to live 100 years, so by shortening it by 20 with suicide a person pays 5 as a ghost. That's 1 to 4 or 4 to 1 ratio.

 

 

I think Prabhupada's use of 85 years has to do with average life expectancy of today, as opposed to the 100 years specified in the Vedas.

[ethos]

Yeah, I was just taking the general Kali-yuga formula. Practically, I think it's even lower than your reply to something around 70 now. Very few live to be 80 now.

 

Hridyananda points out that claims are made for increasing the duration of life by the scientists. But when you factor in abortion which the scientists also give us, the life expectancy dramatically drops.

[Guest guest]

Joy here:

 

u r welcome ethos.

the site is located at www.near-death.com

 

The research conclusions presented there are really interesting.

 

take care and may Lord Krsna bless u.

[Guest guest]

what happens to an aborted child? does it also become a ghost and lead the rest of its life as a ghost??

[ethos]

This is from a Prabhupada lecture off the Vedabase:

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.3.9 - Los Angeles, May 26, 1972

Krsna says the sufferings of birth... They do not understand, such fools, that what is the suffering of birth. Even if you are not killed, you have to remain compact in a vat, airtight. And the worms, they are biting. So many things. Suffocated. That is one thing. But if he can live at least for ten months, the mother does not kill, abortion, then it has got a chance to come out. Otherwise, there is no chance to come out ever. He dies within the womb, again transferred to another womb, and again it is killed. So those who are too much sinful, those who are causing these abortions, they will get this sort of life. They will never see light. One womb, killed; another womb, killed; another womb, killed; another womb, killed. This is so sinful, this abortion. And the modern civilization and the priestly order, they are passing: "If the mother selects... otherwise, there is no objection, abortion." Such foolish world is going on. You see? There are so many subtle laws of nature.

[Gauracandra]

I don't think that an aborted fetus would become a ghost. It would be the difference between being killed and killing oneself. I would think such an entity would simply move on to the next body.