fish

[syama]

I am wandering about the eating of fish. If according to vedas fish is of lower conciousness than vegetation and one is not offering their food first for sacrifice, is there a greater karmic reaction taking the life of vegetables than fish?

[theist]

Fish lower than veggies?I have heard that before but don't see how that could be.Can you explain this please.

[Guest guest]

"For this reason I tell you:

do not be anxious about your life---

what you should eat or what you should drink,

nor for your body---what you should wear.

Is not life more than food

and the body more than clothes?

Look at the birds of heaven,

for they do not sow nor reap nor gather into barns,

and your heavenly Father feeds them;

are you not worth more than they?

Who among you by being anxious

can add one hour to his life?"

 

"Therefore do not be anxious saying, 'What should we eat?'

or 'What should we drink?' or 'What should we wear?'

For the nations strive for all these things;

and your heavenly Father knows that you need all of them."

 

"But seek first the sovereignty and his justice,

and all these things will be provided for you.

Therefore be not anxious about tomorrow,

for tomorrow will be anxious for itself;

each day has enough trouble of its own."

[Guest guest]

They say it's what comes out of your mouth that's important not so much what goes in.

But if prasadam doesn't go in, then many nasty things may come out.

[Guest guest]

Yes Prabhupada mentioned this.

If you are to take his Jesus comments as truth.

Then why not this?

I'll dig up the references tonite when i get home

[theist]

Guest,

 

I was just asking.Questioning is encouraged in Krsna consciousness.It's not a big deal with me, it just seems somewhat counter-intuitive.Looking forward to the reference.

 

Hare Krsna

 

I appreciate the Bible quotes from above.It is true God provides.But still we are making choices on what we accept as food.God also provide intelligence to use in such choices.

 

If I see some road kill on the side of the road,I don't take that is God providing my food.He is providing that perhaps as food for flies and a place for the growth of maggots and such.However if I see an orange drop ripe from a tree I thank God for His kindly looking out for me in that way.

 

 

Jesus's disciples were seen eating without first performing some rituals that the more orthodox Jews performed and some fault-finder chimed in about it.

 

Christ reminded us that what comes forth from us is more important then these rituals.Coming forth in this context could be seen as refering to what is motivating our words and actions etc.

 

The so-called Christians use that to try and justify their cruel involvment in the animal slaughter business.Not realizing that it is the cruelity that comes out from them that is the real issue.

[Gauracandra]

I'm not sure, but we might have discussed this before. What do you guys think of the Avatara sequence with relation to evolution. Consider this:

 

Matsya - fish, aquatic, inhabits only water.

 

Kurma - turtle, inhabits both water and land (the bridge between water and land).

 

Varaha - boar, inhabits only land (leaves water entirely).

 

Narasimha - halfman, halflion (the bridge between animal and man)

 

Vamana - dwarf, man who is not fully developed.

 

Parasurama - wild man (bridge between the undeveloped and refined man)

 

Rama - man who is civilized/disciplined.

 

Krishna - ???

 

Buddha - man having attained enlightenment.

 

Kalki - ???

 

I'm having trouble filling in Krishna and Kalki. But the others seem to follow a steady progression in terms of development each leading into the next.

[theist]

Very interesting.How about:

 

Krsna-man having transcended societal customs.

 

Kalki-man having become fed up with others not getting it.

[raga]

Now, where's the flower? I thought the topic was about fish and flowers. Where's the flower Gauracandra? Should be somewhere between Matsya and Kurma I believe.

[syama]

I never saw it that way untill recently someone told me that on a scale of advancement plant life is above aquatic life and the conciousness of aquatics is less than that of plants I remarked "what about a whale" but a whale is a mammal came the reply. He assured me he knew what the vedic opinion was and I took it at face value. But then I began to wonder how an entity with higher developed senses could be seen as less developed than an entity with no apparent senses. If anyone knows the actual tattva here I would be intrested to know as I always associated karma (the retributional suffering side of it that is) with pain believing we have to recieve measure for measure that which we dish out i n order to know how it feels to behave in such a way and therefore grow beyond it. But surely an aquatics nervous system and therefore its ability to percieve pain is more advanced than that of a plant.

I dont know any help is appreciated but when I get these little niggly wonderings of the mind I like to sort them out.

Thanks

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

I never saw it that way untill recently someone told me that on a scale of advancement plant life is above aquatic life and the conciousness of aquatics is less than that of plants.

 

 

Plant life is lower than fish, and this has been confirmed by Chaitanya in his division of moving/non-moving living entities (refer Chaitanya-charitamrita).

 

Unless you have a particular verse to offer which states fish to be consciously lower than plants, there is no basis for this argument. Anyone can say anything, but they should substantiate their claims. Until their claims have been substantiated, there is no reason to attempt a rebuttal.

 

 

I remarked "what about a whale" but a whale is a mammal came the reply.

 

 

"Mammal" is a modern classification that has no connection to the scriptures (on which the "levels of species' consciousness" discussion is based). It is illogical and wrong to base a discussion on scripture and then quote modern biology as the basis of conclusion.

 

The scriptural division is "aquatics" ("jala-ja", those born in water). It encompases all water born animals, including whales. Your friend is not properly understanding the scriptural divisions.

 

[Guest guest]

We have also read this fish are lower than plant life in terms of level of concsiousness but where this statement is Im unsure .

I seem to remenber it being mentioned by Srila Prabhupada in Srimate Bhagavatum purport ,maybe found in the fifth canto

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Consciousness-wise the fish are higher than plants, but from the aspect of evolutionary trasnmigration, fish come prior to plants. Here is a statement from Srila Prabhupada explaining this:

 

"Because in the beginning the whole planet was covered in water. The water is drying up and gradually land is coming out. So therefore in the beginning the aquatics, jalaja nava-laksani. So the aquatic animals, they are 900,000 species. Jalaja nava..., sthavara laksa-vimsati. Then trees and plants and herbs and grasses and so many, they are 2,000,000 forms. Then krmayo rudra-sankhyakah. Then insect life, reptile life, 1,100,000. Then paksinam dasa-laksanam, then birds, varieties of birds, 1,000,000. Then pasu, four-legged animals, 3,000,000 types. Then manusah catur-laksani. Then human form of life, uncivilized and civilized, that human form of life 400,000."

 

 

The process of evolutionary trasnmigration goes from lower to higher realms of existence, beginning first in the water, then to land, and finaly to the sky and space.

 

[Gauracandra]

Theist,

 

That could be it in regards to Krsna. Still not sure about Kalki though. It is an interesting angle to look at evolution. After all, what we see in the material world is simply a reflection of a greater spiritual reality. "If" evolution exists, shouldn't it be represented in some form spiritually?

[theist]

Gauracandra,

 

Kalki remains a mystery to be revealed later I guess.It is interesting how you have lined them up.Makes me wonder about how the various species actual did appear.I don't accept Darwin's version.No transitional forms in the fossil records etc.There is obviously a directing intelligence.

 

I lean to the extraterrestial involvement idea.Like when the Earth reaches a certain stage enviromentaly then they engineer a suitable species and let 'em loose.I've heard of the prajapati's but don't really have any idea how they work.Some sort of interplanetary/interdimesional genetic engineers.Quite a project,doing a planet when you think about it.Hell, I can't even keep my closet cleaned out.