Ritvik

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

PRABHUPADA: What is the use of producing some rascal guru?

PRABHUPADA: Yes. I shall produce some gurus. I shall say who is guru: 'Now, you become acharya. You become authorized.' I am waiting for that. You become--all--acharya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete

 

From Prabhupada's conversation above it is clear by his own words that he was not about to authorize unqualified "rascal gurus", thus by his own words, he never authorized Bhavananda, Kirtanananda, Harikesh, Jayatirtha, Bhagavan, Hansadutta, nor Satsvarupa (all fallen conditioned souls). He clearly says "What is the use of producing some rascal guru...". He was not about to authorize these unqualified people.

 

He further says:

 

1) I shall say who is guru

2) (I shall say...) Now, you become acharya. You become authorized.

Prabhupada states he will say who will be guru, not that there is a timeless order for every disciple to become successor acharya of his institution. A natural question is, can anyone show an order from Prabhupada where he actually does this, authorizing them to be the next successor acharya of ISKCON?

 

Is there any record from Prabhupada where he says 1) "Such and such will be guru" or 2) "Now, Mr. XYZ, you become Acharya, you are authorized"? When Prabhupada has specifically stated that he would tell us who will be the guru(s), and that he would specifically tell us who is authorized, how can the GBC then fall back onto a claim of a "timeless order" by which all disciples automatically become diksha guru successor acharya's for Prabhupada's institution. Shouldn't Prabhupada have been intelligent enough to know about this "timeless order" principle? Why then does Prabhupada says he will tell us who will be the guru?

 

Some may say that Prabhupada later appointed the original 11 zonal acharya's as the successor acharya's, but...

 

1) There is no recorded evidence that such an authorization ever took place. Prabhupada clearly said he would tell who will be guru, yet that instruction has never been given.

 

2) The only remotely relevent "evidence" (the appointment tape) has been forensically tested and found to have been tampered with and as such inadmissable. Even that tape does not state that these people will be the successor acharya's of ISKCON.

 

3) From Prabhupada's own words he was not about to create "rascal gurus". Out of the original 11 zonal acharya's, a very high percentage later were exposed as this very same "rascal guru" that Prabhupada was not going to authorize. Thus from Prabhupada's own words, it is clear he never authorized these 11 to be successor acharya's for his institution.

 

3) Tamal Krishna Maharaja has stated that Prabhupada never appointed a successor (Pyramid House Talks, 1980). Tamal Krishna Maharaja seems to have accepted the timeless order concept where everyone automatically becomes the successor to the guru.

 

If Prabhupada never appointed successor gurus, and if Prabhupada clearly says "I shall produce some gurus. I shall say who is guru: 'Now, you become acharya. You become authorized.'", on what grounds does the GBC then fall back onto the timeless order concept, rejecting Prabhupada's statement that he would say who is guru?

 

I am not saying that Prabhupada has not appointed successor acharyas. If anyone has a letter or recording of Prabhupada where he does such a thing, then present it here. If no such evidence exists, then the above points need to be considered.

 

Prabhupada's conclusion is quite a prophecy:

 

TKG: No rubber stamp.

PRABHUPADA: Then you'll not be effective. You can cheat, but it will not be effective.

 

If someone rubber stamps gurus, without Prabhupada's direct order, they will cheat and not be effective. It is clear from the zonal acharya's who have fallen that they were rubber stamped, they cheated, and they were not effective.

[vijay]

 

If Prabhupada never appointed successor gurus, and if Prabhupada clearly says "I shall produce some gurus. I shall say who is guru: 'Now, you become acharya. You become authorized.'", on what grounds does the GBC then fall back onto the timeless order concept, rejecting Prabhupada's statement that he would say who is guru?

 

He never appointed the 11 as diksa gurus, and may be not any other guru as he felt them not qualified as given in one of those letters. But how does it work once he leaves the planet how is the order given?

 

 

His idea was 'Let them manage; then whoever will be qualified for becoming acarya, they will elect. Why should I enforce it upon them?' That was his plan. 'Let them manage by strong governing body, as it is going on. Then acarya will come by his qualifications.' (SPL 21.9.73)

 

Mundane votes have no jurisdiction to elect a Vaisnava acarya. A Vaisnava acarya is self-effulgent, and there is no need for any court judgment. (C.c. Madhya-lila 1.220, purp.) His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected. (SPL 28.4.74)

 

I wish that in my absence all my disciples become the bona fide spiritual master to spread Krsna consciousness throughout the whole world. (SPL Madhusudana, Nov. 2, 1967)

 

Regarding your question about the disciplic succession coming down from Arjuna, it is just like I have got my disciples, so in the future these many disciples may have many branches of disciplic succession. (Los Angeles, 25 January, 1969)

 

Every one of you should be spiritual master next. (Hamburg, September 5, 1969)

 

These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters. (RC Detroit, July 18, 1971)

 

You, all my disciples, everyone should become spiritual master. (London, August 22, 1973)

 

Every student is expected to become acarya. Acarya means one who knows the scriptural injunctions and follows them practically in life, and teaches them to his disciples... I want to see my disciples become bona fide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy... Keep trained up very rigidly and then you are bonafide Guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. (SPL Tusta Krsna, December 2, 1975)

 

 

I dont see him ever mentioning that he'll remain the soul diksa guru after he leaves, his desire was to clearly have qualified dicsiples that will take over, in the absence of such disciples does the ritvik system continue? does prabhupada order them through the heart when they are qualified? or do we see someone as self effulgent as was the plan for the gudiya matha? (self effulgent what does that mean to every one or to half the people or what?)

[Guest guest]

 

Every one of you should be spiritual master next. (Hamburg, September 5, 1969)

 

These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters. (RC Detroit, July 18, 1971)

 

You, all my disciples, everyone should become spiritual master. (London, August 22, 1973)

 

Every student is expected to become acarya. Acarya means one who knows the scriptural injunctions and follows them practically in life, and teaches them to his disciples... I want to see my disciples become bona fide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy... Keep trained up very rigidly and then you are bonafide Guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. (SPL Tusta Krsna, December 2, 1975)

 

 

All this is good and well, but practically speaking this process has left thousands of ISKCON devotees, who were disciples of ISKCON gurus, left in a very bad situation as their guru blooped, imbezzled millions of dollars and fled with some gullible female disciple.

 

Is their no way to protect new devotees from this danger?

 

Did Prabhupada leave this world with a movement of neophytes who were destined to drag the parampara through the dirt and into the sewers?

 

Many "gurus' have fallen.

 

More will fall in the future.

 

Can ISKCON ever really reclaim the honor and dignity it had under the leadership of Prabhupada?

 

The whole process described above seems very flawed, as new devotees sometimes jump into intiation without using proper discretion and then get duped.

 

It just seems that the whole ISKCON concept is unravelling at the seams under the terms referred to in the quotes above.

[Kulapavana]

 

From Prabhupada's conversation above it is clear by his own words that he was not about to authorize unqualified "rascal gurus", thus by his own words, he never authorized Bhavananda, Kirtanananda, Harikesh, Jayatirtha, Bhagavan, Hansadutta, nor Satsvarupa (all fallen conditioned souls). He clearly says "What is the use of producing some rascal guru...". He was not about to authorize these unqualified people.

 

 

he obviously authorized them to act as his ritvik representatives for years while he was physically present with us, and they initiated lots of devotees on his behalf, that he fully accepted.

 

the question of authorization to act as independent gurus for these devotees was clearly pertaining to the time when SP is still physically present with us, which the phrase: "You become--all--acharya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete" clearly indicates. as SP said earlier:

 

PRABHUPADA: He's guru. He's guru.

SDG: But he does it on your behalf.

PRABHUPADA: Yes, that's a formality, because in my presence one should not become guru. So, on my behalf, on my order--amara ajnaya guru hana--be actually guru. But on my order.

 

How on earth can you say that this means SP wanted the ritvik system to continue past his departure?

[Guest guest]

 

These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters. (RC Detroit, July 18, 1971)

 

"Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting."

 

 

It might interesting to note that most of the Godbrothers that Srila Prabhupada are referring to all left the Gaudiya Math and started their own Maths.

 

They did not stick around to pilfer disciples from their spiritual master's institution.

 

The disciples they made were made on their own merit.

 

They did not all hang around the Gaudiya Math competing for disciples.

 

If a disciple has the wherewithall to break away and accomplish something on his own, then that is to his credit.

 

Hanging around the acharya's society and pilfering disciples is hardly what Srila Prabhupada is saying in this statement.

[Kulapavana]

 

Your scholarship is an example of what Srila Prabhupada warned against. There are lots of quotes in his purports in all of his books which can appear as instructions for anyone, and indeed may be.

 

But when it came to how his society was to be run, things were there in black and white. It was a divinely inspired institution based to some degree on Varnashrama Dharma which allowed his materially deadened disciples to engage in material occupation while gradually renouncing it by dovetailling.

 

Thus there were strict rules and regulations especially on the management level (ie. how formal ceremonies and priestly roles were to be carried out) about which he clearly warned, "there is no need for change".

 

 

Prabhu, I'm just a fool who tries to understand the words of my Guru, Srila Prabhupada, the best I can. I use my heart and I use my intelligence in trying to do just that. I have been around for a long time and have seen much abuse of both power and reason in our movement.

 

I never fell for the bhogi-yogis like Kirtanananda or Bhavananda even as they were at the peak of their power in our society. why not? because I could see through their lies and poses that they did not represent our sampradaya. and neither does the ritvik philosophy. this is my take on these matters, and in my heart I'm very happy with that choice, and I believe it pleases Srila Prabhupada.

 

Iskcon was never "based to some degree on Varnashrama Dharma" (and I do know varnasrama as I'm a kshatriya by nature). It was based on authoritarian expediency. SP saw that towards the end of his stay here and desperately wanted to introduce Varnashrama.

 

What "strict rules and regulations especially on the management level" were there in place? SP was changing the rules as he saw fit, and his disciples did the same. SP would sometimes use dirty money to build his society - and his disciples continued to do that as well... "there is no need for change"...you want to go back to THAT?? give me a break! there was very little room in that society for honest and honorable people, as they would invariably clash with the prevailing crooked vaishya and sudra rulers and be forced to leave - that happened to me very early on, and I have been on the sidelines ever since.

 

that is why we must NOT abandon the scriptural injunctions and our tradition, using logic and reason to make proper decisions instead of perpetuating the 1970's Iskcon "Model T" (T is for "trouble"). That is a proper dynamic for our society.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

How on earth can you say that this means SP wanted the ritvik system to continue past his departure?

From this quote I never tried to establish that Prabhupada wanted the ritvik system. Here is what I said:

 

"From Prabhupada's conversation above it is clear by his own words that he was not about to authorize unqualified "rascal gurus", thus by his own words, he never authorized Bhavananda, Kirtanananda, Harikesh, Jayatirtha, Bhagavan, Hansadutta, nor Satsvarupa (all fallen conditioned souls). He clearly says "What is the use of producing some rascal guru...". He was not about to authorize these unqualified people."

 

Thus what I established was

 

1) That Prabhupada did not appoint the 11 zonal acharya's as diksha guru successors. This is a point that some GBC accept (like Tamal Krishna Maharaja via a timeless order concept) and some other's reject (some of their position papers claim Prabhupada appointed these 11 as diksha gurus, and this is what is written in Prabhupada Lilamrita as well).

 

2) That Prabhupada said he would tell us who will be guru. Thus the timeless order concept is false in the case of whom Prabhupada wanted to be successor diksha guru(s) for his movement.

 

 

he obviously authorized them to act as his ritvik representatives for years while he was physically present with us, and they initiated lots of devotees on his behalf, that he fully accepted.

There is a huge difference between being a priest (ritvik) and being a sampradaya acharya perfectly representing Krishna. He may have approved many people to act as his priests, but there is no recorded order authorizing any of them as diksha guru successors for his movement (despite the fact that Prabhupada said he would give such an order).

 

Also there is absolutely no connection between a ritvik and a diksha guru; they are apples and oranges. It is not that by being a ritvik one will eventually automatically graduate to diksha guru. A ritvik is a priest, used today in countless rituals in India.

[Kulapavana]

 

2) That Prabhupada said he would tell us who will be guru. Thus the timeless order concept is false in the case of whom Prabhupada wanted to be successor diksha guru(s) for his movement.

 

 

As I have pointed out twice before, that authorization obviously pertains to the time period Srila Prabhupada was still physically present here.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

In this conversation Prabhupada is speaking specifically of "gurus", not ritviks; he even uses the specific word acharya: "you become acharya".

 

In regards to these gurus, he says he will tell us who will be the guru, who will be authorized. But there has never been a place where Prabhupada did this, saying "this person will be the sucessor diksha guru of my institution", even though he said he would do this.

 

Your opinion that here Prabhupada is refering to the Ritviks who would act on his behalf (since he mentions he would retire) is without basis. Prabhupada speaks only of gurus in this conversation, not of ritviks. The use of the word acharya (not representative-acharya, not ritvik, etc.) makes this very clear, it is about regular diksha gurus:

Prabhupada: What is the use of producing some rascal guru?

Tamala Krishna: Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it's clear fact that we are all conditioned souls, so we cannot be guru. Maybe one day it may be possible...

 

Prabhupada: Hm.

 

Tamala Krishna: ...but not now.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall say, "Now you become acarya. You become authorized." I am waiting for that. You become all acarya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.

 

Tamala Krishna: The process of purification must be there.

 

Prabhupada: Oh, yes, must be there. Caitanya Mahaprabhu wants that. Amara ajnaya guru hana [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "You become guru." (laughs) But be qualified. Little thing, strictly follower...

 

Tamala Krishna: Not rubber stamp.

Prabhupada: Then you'll not be effective. You can cheat, but it will not be effective. Just see our Gaudiya Matha. Everyone wanted to become guru, and a small temple and "guru." What kind of guru? No publication, no preaching, simply bring some foodstuff... My Guru Maharaja used to say, "Joint mess," a place for eating and sleeping. Amar amar ara takana (?)(Bengali): "Joint mess." He said this.

[Kulapavana]

 

Your opinion that here Prabhupada is refering to the Ritviks who would act on his behalf (since he mentions he would retire) is without basis. Prabhupada speaks only of gurus in this conversation, not of ritviks. The use of the word acharya (not representative-acharya, not ritvik, etc.) makes this very clear, it is about regular diksha gurus..

 

That is precisely the point I am making: that once some of his disciples are actually qualified, Prabhupada will appoint them to be regular gurus (and not just ritviks) while he is still on the planet. he already appointed the ritviks.

 

And you are saying he wanted the ritvik system to continue forever? That is completely bogus. Prabhupada would have appointed the independent diksa gurus when he was still with us if he had qualified candidates. so it was strictly the issue of qualifications. And that, my friend, is the essence of the parampara...

[Guest guest]

Just a slight correction - Srila Prabhupada did not say he would tell us who is Guru. His words are 'I will say 'now you become acharya, now you become authorized.' This may seem like a small point but the reality is that he never said he would announce his choice to the general assembly of vaishnavas - he said he would tell a devotee - 'now you become acharya'.

 

Everyone aspiring sadhaka can read the books and become educated regarding the different stages of devotion and how to recognize the level of advancement of an individual. Beyond that, since scholarship alone will not reveal God, sincerity and prayer will bring mercy and revelation and will guide the sincere aspirant in their search for Sri Guru.

 

Since there is no possiblity of physical evidence of Srila Prabhupada telling one or many of his sisyas to 'become acharya' what we are left with is the honesty of any particular devotee him/herself in terms of their inspiration for action.

 

That inspiration and order, as we have seen in Srila Prabhupada's own case, can manifest in something less than documented direct empirical evidence. Srila Prabhupada often said he was 'ordered' by his Guru Maharaja to preach in the west - that order came as a 'suggestion' that since he spoke good english it would be good if he preached in the west. Not exactly what most of us would ascertain as an order for action - but to Srila Prabhupada it was an order and just see the results of his fidelity to that order.

[Guest guest]

Audarya Lila said.

 

 

Just a slight correction - Srila Prabhupada did not say he would tell us who is Guru. His words are 'I will say 'now you become acharya, now you become authorized.' This may seem like a small point but the reality is that he never said he would announce his choice to the general assembly of vaishnavas - he said he would tell a devotee - 'now you become acharya'.

 

Everyone aspiring sadhaka can read the books and become educated regarding the different stages of devotion and how to recognize the level of advancement of an individual. Beyond that, since scholarship alone will not reveal God, sincerity and prayer will bring mercy and revelation and will guide the sincere aspirant in their search for Sri Guru.

 

Since there is no possiblity of physical evidence of Srila Prabhupada telling one or many of his sisyas to 'become acharya' what we are left with is the honesty of any particular devotee him/herself in terms of their inspiration for action.

 

That inspiration and order, as we have seen in Srila Prabhupada's own case, can manifest in something less than documented direct empirical evidence. Srila Prabhupada often said he was 'ordered' by his Guru Maharaja to preach in the west - that order came as a 'suggestion' that since he spoke good english it would be good if he preached in the west. Not exactly what most of us would ascertain as an order for action - but to Srila Prabhupada it was an order and just see the results of his fidelity to that order.

Today 09:19 AM

 

Well spoken.

 

So with a system in place whereby if followed sincerely, disciples can have a nice temple, and a nice self-sufficient farm and households, have fellowship where they come together to read and discuss the Bhagavata, engage in Hari Nam sankirtan, serve prasadam, and fulfill his NUMEROUS directives on implementing and expanding into a Varnashrama Dharma lifestyle with Sri Sri Radha-Krsna and the Acharya at the center, a direction of management, and a last will and testament, we have all we need.

 

And if he decides in some instance that there needs to be an Acharya to start a new institution due to a time place and circumstance which arises in the world that cannot be met by his own system (including that none of his disciples are following and perpetuating it), he will make that order to one of his qualified disciples. And perhaps in some corner of the globe he already has and that disciple has begun his own branch of the Sampradaya.

 

But never ever would such a pure follower of Srila Prabhupada challenge to change Iskcon or coopt it for his own use if there were any sincere devotees still following that system precisely, as this would be a contradiction and offense, as Srila Prabhupada's murti, and his purports, and managerial instructions are right there being followed and being known as Iskcon, in places such as Iskcon Bangalore, Isckon San Antonio, Iskcon NYC (St Mark's place) and others.

 

I see all this focus and arguing about who is or is not a Diksa guru or acharya just a result of a tremendous amount of arrogance that led unqualified people to aggrandize themselves by twisting Srila Prabhupada's instructions, and all their apologists who have somehow benefitted from this by sucking off that tit provided by these rascals secretly hoping to advance themselves closer to those positions of luxurioius prasadam, and being worshipped.

 

No humility, just a bunch of envious people who want to be guru. Why not just be a humble disciple until FORCED to be Acharya, the same way these things were forced on the great souls who honestly felt they were not qualified, which was indeed their own qualification.

 

But then there is no free lunch in that proposition is there.

 

Hare Krsna.

 

y.s.

 

Mark

[Guest guest]

Dear Kulapavana,

 

You said,

 

 

Iskcon was never "based to some degree on Varnashrama Dharma" (and I do know varnasrama as I'm a kshatriya by nature). It was based on authoritarian expediency. SP saw that towards the end of his stay here and desperately wanted to introduce Varnashrama.

 

What "strict rules and regulations especially on the management level" were there in place? SP was changing the rules as he saw fit, and his disciples did the same. SP would sometimes use dirty money to build his society - and his disciples continued to do that as well... "there is no need for change"...you want to go back to THAT?? give me a break! there was very little room in that society for honest and honorable people, as they would invariably clash with the prevailing crooked vaishya and sudra rulers and be forced to leave - that happened to me very early on, and I have been on the sidelines ever since.

 

that is why we must NOT abandon the scriptural injunctions and our tradition, using logic and reason to make proper decisions instead of perpetuating the 1970's Iskcon "Model T" (T is for "trouble"). That is a proper dynamic for our society.

 

 

Prabhu, I'm just a fool who tries to understand the words of my Guru, Srila Prabhupada, the best I can.

 

As you claim to be a Ksyatria, I will be Frank and direct with you.

 

So enough foolishness now. Don't "try" anymore and simply listen to exactly what the one you call Guru said.

 

The axiom is that you should only accept a pure devotee on the advanced platform as a Guru, assuming you are referring to your primary Siksa Guru who you feel has the Diksa power to eradicate your sins and guide you to Krsna Prema by his instructions.

 

 

" One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master." (NOI 5)

 

"Unless one is a resident of Krishna Loka, one cannot be a Spiritual Master." (Letter Mukunda 6/10/69)

 

There is no possibility that a first-class devotee will fall down" (Madhya 22.71)

 

So, the fact you consider that such a person could ever be "desperately" wanting to do anything is troubling, and may be an indication that you do not have enough faith in A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami as Acharya and should look elsewhere. However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are having a weak moment, and continue.

 

You said

"SP saw that towards the end of his stay here and desperately wanted to introduce Varnashrama."

 

As a Ksyatria, you are either ignorant of the truth on this matter, which is immediately forgivable, or you are obfuscating, which is forgivable only when you repent your enviousness.

 

He introduced Varnashrama. period.

 

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 9, Ch. 10 TEXT 51]

PURPORT

 

Among the four yugas - Satya, Treta, Dvapara, and Kali, the Kali-yuga is the worst, but if the process of varnasrama-dharma is introduced, even in this age of Kali, the situation of Satya-yuga can be invoked. The Hare Krsna movement is meant for this purpose.

Conversations With Srila Prabhupada Vol. 7 pg. 301:

Srila Prabhupada: So everywhere in each center this system should be introduced, and there must be practical application of varnasrama. At the same time this program of devotional service.

 

BHAGAVAD-GITA 1.42

PURPORT

 

For those who have not yet fully developed their Krsna consciousness [pure love of God] the introduction and establishment of varnasrama-dharma, "which is also known as sanatana-dharma," creates an ideal situation, that is much more conducive for spiritual advancement than any system of so-called organization there is, or has ever been in the history of all humanity. It also creates an ideal environment for those who have fully developed their Krsna consciousness to perform their respective engagements, or in other words, services to the Supreme Personality, Lord Sri Krsna.

 

Prabhupada: What is the social arrangement? What is that?

Harikesa: That Krsna created the four orders.

Prabhupada: Yes. So you make that four orders, and then society will be in order. But you are not taking Krsna's advice. You are manufacturing your hellish ideas. . . . . Now if they take to Krsna consciousness, select amongst them. Just like I am training you. You are brahmana by training. So one who is prepared to be trained as brahmana classify him in the brahmana. One is trained up as ksatriya, classify him. In this way catur-varnyam maya srs...

Conversations With Srila Prabhupada Vol. 16 pg. 265 & 266, October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:

 

There are several groups of devotees now sincerely attempting to do so, and even claim it is their primary mission. If you are interested, I could put you in touch so you could judge for yourself how well they are doing, and if they have like minds to your own.

 

You also said.

 

 

What "strict rules and regulations especially on the management level" were there in place? SP was changing the rules as he saw fit, and his disciples did the same.

 

As a ksyatria, you best come to understand the dynamics of rules and regulations right quick.

 

The person designing a system of rules and regulations, aka the Acharya, has every right to change rules. For those who feel that following those rules would be helpful to their spiritual advancement, it is up to them to keep the follow the latest version. This may be a challenge to the ego, but THAT IS ULTIMATELY THE POINT!

 

As I pointed out previously, entire dynasties of Pious devotional servants of the lord lived generation after generation following the same rules, gradually giving up their material attachments.

 

You have been understandably jaded by the traumatic application of rules by tyrants in the garb of Vaisnavas. This has left you cynical. Please do not lose hope.

 

"Unchanging" Rules and Regulations have taken on a terrible connotation as something stifling to the human spirit. When in actuality, when properly followed, they allow for great emotional liberation on the material side of things, sentimental joy of familial relations, honorable, stimulating and creative execution of one's natural duties, and a welcome protection against perverted types of material engagement which are inevitable when we have no positive guidance.

 

 

that is why we must NOT abandon the scriptural injunctions and our tradition, using logic and reason to make proper decisions

 

We must listen to the one we choose as Guru, for his every word in the form of instruction, whether it follows some tradition or not, IS SCRIPTURE. And thus becomes YOUR Personal tradition.

 

 

“What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures.”

 

“Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard.” Thakura Bhaktivinode By Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.

 

sincerely in service to Srila Prabhupada,

 

Mark

[Kulapavana]

 

So, the fact you consider that such a person could ever be "desperately" wanting to do anything is troubling, and may be an indication that you do not have enough faith in A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami as Acharya and should look elsewhere. However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are having a weak moment, and continue.

 

 

thank you for your gracious instructions. if it's all the same to you, I'll stick to my understanding of Srila Prabhupada's words. that understanding grows and deepens with his mercy, as I continue to serve his mission. I wish you the same.

[Kulapavana]

 

I see all this focus and arguing about who is or is not a Diksa guru or acharya just a result of a tremendous amount of arrogance that led unqualified people to aggrandize themselves by twisting Srila Prabhupada's instructions, and all their apologists who have somehow benefitted from this by sucking off that tit provided by these rascals secretly hoping to advance themselves closer to those positions of luxurioius prasadam, and being worshipped.

 

that arrogance and abuse was going on full blast even when Srila Prabhupada was on the planet and to some extent continues today. his presence did not stop that. you think implementing the ritvik system will? sannyasis living and ruling like kings in the name of "implemented" varnasrama system, and sudras pretending to be brahmanas? you think I'm an apologist to anyone when I present my views here?

 

and what is your varna, Mark? please tell us a bit about yourself, like what you actually did during these tumoultous 70's, roaring 80's and frustrating 90's?

[Guest guest]

Dear Kulapavana,

 

you said,

 

 

that arrogance and abuse was going on full blast even when Srila Prabhupada was on the planet and to some extent continues today. his presence did not stop that. you think implementing the ritvik system will? sannyasis living and ruling like kings in the name of "implemented" varnasrama system, and sudras pretending to be brahmanas? you think I'm an apologist to anyone when I present my views here?

 

You are again misunderstanding me. Srila Prabhupada implemented a ritvik system. I will follow his instructions. I do not "think" (read speculate) about what following it will result in, because I have faith in his order. This is not to be confused with me giving up my ability to think for myself. On the contrary, I understand that the descending method of knowledge is the highest way to understand anything, and this is clear thinking. I am not perfect in this regard, but do my best.

 

I do not agree with any abuse of power. Therefore, I only associate with those who are mature and humble human beings first. Unfortunately, they are few and far between.

 

Nevertheless, I have my orders.

 

I have not heard you apologize for any rascals so far, so no I do not think you are an apologist to anyone. But you sure have been hurt by what has gone on in the tumultuous past, and I am hoping you will that if you can see that it is not your Guru's fault, that you might be open to the possibility that there may be some low-profile sincere disciples of his mission doing the right thing and flying below the radar, who you might appreciate.

 

As you may or may not be aware, in Varnashrama Dharma in its broadest manifestation, each Varna has members with secondary qualities all 4 different varnas, and will tend to duties accordingly.

 

I am either Brahmana-Ksyatria or Ksyatria-Brahmana. I have been discovering this on my own, with some advice from those who observe me.

 

It is hard to tell exactly, because my passions can be glaring, but it is mostly due to healing from the absurd traumas we endure during Kali Yuga which can pervert even the little passion a Brahmana would naturally possess into monstrous outbursts of nescience.

 

And unless a person is told by a pure devotee, we can only get glimpse of our varna from underneath the shell of sudra or less ignorance we are conditioned with from birth here in the west.

 

I have gone through a very intense purification of my emotional body, before I even found Srila Prabhupada and Krsna-Consciousness, and thus am more clear on my natural varna then many, but not absolute.

 

I have to go pick up my car.

 

Please accept my obeisances,

 

y.s.

 

Mark

[Guest guest]

In an acharya sampradaya such as ISKCON, there are specific standards and instructions that are laid down by the acharya.

 

When an acharya establishes an institution that is founded on certain concepts that make that institution the acharya sampradaya that it is, ONLY the acharya can alter, change or reject any of the systems established by the acharya.

 

ISKCON was a unique acharya sampradaya with a long running system of ritvik initiations.

 

ONLY THE ACHARYA has the authority to reject or abandon any practices or processes that the acharya sampradaya is founded on.

 

The ISKCON GBC unlawfully and illegally, without authority from the acharya, changed a very important aspect of the ISKCON acharya sampradaya.

 

ONLY SRILA PRABHUPADA had the authority to dismantle or dismiss the functioning ritvik system of ISKCON.

 

Without authority or sanction, the GBC acted to abandon the ritvik system without any permission from Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada left ISKCON with a ritvik system in place and he NEVER instructed the GBC to abandon the ritvik system after his departure. Srila Prabhupada never gave them authority to abandon the ritvik system under any conditions.

 

These rascals never asked for permission to do so either, because none of them were ready to face the severe results of asking Srila Prabhupada to do so.

 

Not one word was ever breathed to Srila Prabhupada about abandoning the ritvik system after his demise.

 

Not ONE of these rascals had the audacity to mention it to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Thus, the ritvik system is the ONLY authorized official system that Srila Prabhupada left ISKCON with.

 

These rascals waited for Prabhupada to leave, then they made all their changes.

 

Bottom line_____

 

The GBC did not have the right or authority to abandon a fundamental aspect of the ISKCON structure.

[Kulapavana]

Dear Mark,

 

I appreciate your sincerity even as I dont share some of your views. I try to relate to others on the platform of service but I truly enjoy the company of honest and sincere sadhakas, whatever their "political" views may be. I have found a lot of "gold" in many unexpected places while associating with such devotees.

 

as to the mixed varna nature. yes, that is common, but just pick the one that is dominating, and act accordingly without agonizing over the choice. it is also usually safer to pick the lower varna.

 

dandabat pranams

 

y.s. KPdasa

[Kulapavana]

 

ONLY THE ACHARYA has the authority to reject or abandon any practices or processes that the acharya sampradaya is founded on.

 

then stop calling yourself a Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya sampradaya. start calling yourself Prabhupada ritvik sampradaya and be done with all the pretenses.

 

you have no grasp of what a disciplic succession is about... (look up "succession" in the dictionary for a start)

[Guest guest]

Dear Kulapavana,

 

My dandavats to you.

 

I appreciate your humble advise about not overestimating. Since any varna is eligible for devotional service, the highs and the lows are only relevant if someone is on a power game. Which I have exhibited signs of in my weaker moments.

 

I certainly have the Brahminical tendencies toward instruction through intellectual articulation, and a strong capability for abstract thought. I have many of the other more general emotional character qualities as well.

 

However, I also share some of those of the Ksyatria class.

 

I am just unsure how much of my passion is due to perverted birth, and how much is natural.

 

So sometimes I relate more to Dronacharya as an educator and instructor within the ksyatria Dharma. I have had some training in martial arts. And quickly leap to the defense of the innocent. Yet I know and value the capability of reasonable discussion to subdue all but the most hardened and desperate of criminals.

 

And in my quieter moments, I am like a straight Brahmana who tends more toward the passionate end of the Brahmana bandwidth and cherish reading and sharing scripture, and speaking to any moment as a glorification of the lord, enjoy samskara ceremonies when they can relate to the moment of the persons life with meaning, and not just empty ritual, and feel drawn to arcana.

 

As for shared views, I am convinced coming from the ignorance that we- ie: "myself and most everyone I know" have, that unless we share instruction from the same acharya and can agree on what that instruction entails, then there will always be some degree of separation and contentious points of view, as opposed to purely shastric points of view, and that is exactly what a power tripping false guru seeks to do by promoting the an acharyas instructions and scriptures with their own spin thus keeping the minds of their listeners incapable of unity, under the guise of "universal" principles.

 

By sticking to Srila Prabhupada's exact words, no matter how unsure we are about them, I believe we have a chance at greater cooperation as we move forward.

 

Best regards,

 

y.s.

 

Mark

[Guest guest]

Dear Ancient Mariner,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances,

 

I won't blow your cover, but it is good to hear your wise and clear words ringing forth in cyberspace again.

 

In Srila Prabhupada we trust,

 

y.s.

 

Mark

[Guest guest]

 

then stop calling yourself a Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya sampradaya. start calling yourself Prabhupada ritvik sampradaya and be done with all the pretenses.

 

you have no grasp of what a disciplic succession is about... (look up "succession" in the dictionary for a start)

 

Actually, the Sanskrit word is parampara and I have looked it up in the Sanskrit dictionary.

Basically, for the purposes of Vaishnava culture, it means "one following another".

There are many devotee even today that have taken up following Srila Prabhupada and have adopted the regulative principles and chanting the prescribed rounds. Thus, they are initiated. Because actually diksha really is the process of accepting and following the religious principles given by the acharya.

For those who are still confused about the actual meaning and process of diksha, they should know that accepting the instructions of the bona-fide acharya and following them is actual initiation.

 

The concept that parampara or disciplic succession is a physical succession of formal diksha has long since been rejected by Srila Prabhupada as we see in his parampara roster included in his books.

 

The actual parampara of the Madhva Gaudiyas is the Bhagavat parampara as established by the Goswamis of Vrindavan on the basis of Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

The Vaidica (Vedic) parampara is NOT the actual parampara of the Gaudiyas.

 

The Vaidic Brahmanas follow the Brahma-sutra and the Upanishads. They place minimal importance on the Bhagavat and their parampara is diksha based.

 

The Gaudiyas place topmost importance on the Bhagavat and their parampara is based upon siksha - not diksha.

[Guest guest]

The rhyming Ancient Mariner said,

 

 

"The Vaidic Brahmanas follow the Brahma-sutra and the Upanishads. They place minimal importance on the Bhagavat and their parampara is diksha based.

 

The Gaudiyas place topmost importance on the Bhagavat and their parampara is based upon siksha - not diksha.

 

In order that this not be construed as a contradiction with what he wrote previously about diksa in that last post, as it could be based on the face value of the words...

 

In this case when he says the Vaidic parampara is diksa based, he is referring to the fact that in their estimation, if there is a diksa ceremony, regardless of any offering and following of siksa instruction or not, there is considered to be a succession. Some call this smarta practice. Not to say there is no siksa at all with that group, but it is deemed practically irrelevant.

 

The Gaudiyas parampara considers the Bhagavat scripture paramount, and is Based on Siksa as the Undisputed truth as discovered in either scriptural set would show that without following, Diksa does not occur, even if a Mantra and ceremony are offered by an empowered being, because they must be accepted and taken to heart.

 

So essentially, Siksa can be offered, and not accepted and is not the fault of the Acharya who offered it. But transmission of spiritual knowledge is incomplete then, and this is not equal to Diksa.

 

So in a sense, the smartas do have a disciplic succession, since the disciple does FOLLOW the Guru, but this succession is not successful at transmitting spiritual knowledge when Siksa is relegated to an irrelevant optional occurance.

 

All Glories to the Bhagavat Parampara!

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

then stop calling yourself a Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya sampradaya. start calling yourself Prabhupada ritvik sampradaya and be done with all the pretenses.

 

you have no grasp of what a disciplic succession is about... (look up "succession" in the dictionary for a start)

 

It is a relevant fact that the Gaudiya sampradays accepts few of the teachings of the madhva sampradaya, with the exception of the nava prameyas, which are just the rough structure of their philosophies. When it comes down to details, they are very much in disagreement on everything. The madhva sampradaya doesn't even accept Balarama as Vishnu tattva, does not accept gradation of Vishnu tattva, does not accept qualitative oneness, really does not accept much of anything the Gaudiyas teach. The idea that a sampradaya maintains a particular teaching system without change doesn't appear valid in the case of the Gaudiya sampradaya.

[Guest guest]

 

It is a relevant fact that the Gaudiya sampradays accepts few of the teachings of the madhva sampradaya, with the exception of the nava prameyas, which are just the rough structure of their philosophies. When it comes down to details, they are very much in disagreement on everything. The madhva sampradaya doesn't even accept Balarama as Vishnu tattva, does not accept gradation of Vishnu tattva, does not accept qualitative oneness, really does not accept much of anything the Gaudiyas teach. The idea that a sampradaya maintains a particular teaching system without change doesn't appear valid in the case of the Gaudiya sampradaya.

 

The contemporary Madhvas say Radharani is a "bogus deity".

 

Mahaprabhu "grafted" (my words) the tree of the Gaudiya sampradaya onto the root system of the Madhva sampradaya.

 

In botany the process of grafting can make one species of plant more hardy, disease resistant and able to grow in otherwise intolerable climates.

Thus Mahaprabhu grafted his Gaudiya tree onto the root system of the Madhva doctrine, yet the actual tree produced a different kind of fruit and became more adaptable to an unfavorable environment.

 

The Madhvas are a whole diffierent species of Vaishnava.

 

Nonetheless, we should never minimize the holy souls who worship God, the Lord Narayana.