Ritvik

[Guest guest]

 

Ritvik discussions to conclude in 3 days

 

anyway, the ritvik discussion is really nothing more than the pitbull of irate Godbrothers biting on the ass of the GBC and ISKCON guru elite.

 

ISKCON will vanish or wither into a skeletal structure and the GBC will never reform ISKCON back to the ritvik system.

 

Ritvik is really a moot point. It will never be a reality in ISKCON again.

 

The ritvik ideology is a hopeless concept for hopeless devotees who refuse to accept an inferior product as being genuine.

 

ISKCON is now like the Republic of China that produces knock-offs of every name-brand product of the western world.

 

Ritvik....................

 

A pipe dream for idealists.

 

Rascal Gurus............................

 

The ISKCON standard.

 

The GBC is bound and determined to turn Srila Prabhupada into a failure who made so many bad decisions and propped up a bunch of rascals as being worthy of eternal shelter.

 

Many of us are not willing to EVER accept that.

 

The horrible mess that is ISKCON is NOT the doing of Srila Prabhupada.

 

This mess was created by a horde of buffoons masquerading as siddhas.

[Guest guest]

Really, a sincere devotees does not need any ritvik initiation.

The ritvik concept is just an institutional structure designed for ISKCON incorperated.

Nobody really needs any ritvik initiation ceremony to actually become a follower of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Diksha is the process of learning, accepting and following the guidleines and principles of the acharya.

 

Nobody needs any fake diksha from some rascal ISKCON guru.

 

All you need is the instructions of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Accepting those instructions and following them IS diksha!

 

The ritvik thing is just another form of formality that was created for the institution.

 

Nobody needs any ritvik formality.

 

Just accept Srila Prabhupada and follow his instructions.

 

Accept a spiritual name as a devotee of the Lord.

 

 

You can be.....

 

Gaurakrishna dasa....(dasi)

 

Accept Prabhupada and don't allow yourself to be exploited by some rascal guru who is hanging around ISKCON looking to pilfer some disciples as a means of livelyhood and cash-cow for his jet-set lifestyle.

 

Just accept Srila Prabhupada, follow him, worship him and everything will be just fine.

 

That is much better than getting cheated by some rascal guru who needs money to fly around the world playing guru at the expense of someone elses hard work.

[M.M.]

I can appreciate your cynicism O Ancient one, and applaud your attempt to steer people clear of those who would subjugate them using a ceremony to seal the faustian deal by eliciting a vow of obedience.

 

But wouldn't you agree that There was some substance to the ceremony that Srila Prabhupada performed time and time again, and that the scriptural basis and commentary as to its efficacy in assisting one's progress in devotional service is enough to consider that if it was offered in such a spirit outside of apa-Iskcon, say among Devotees who are banded together acting under the auspices of the original instructions, thus the Real Iskcon, that this would be as Srila Prabhupada would approve?

[Guest guest]

 

I can appreciate your cynicism O Ancient one, and applaud your attempt to steer people clear of those who would subjugate them using a ceremony to seal the faustian deal by eliciting a vow of obedience.

 

But wouldn't you agree that There was some substance to the ceremony that Srila Prabhupada performed time and time again, and that the scriptural basis and commentary as to its efficacy in assisting one's progress in devotional service is enough to consider that if it was offered in such a spirit outside of apa-Iskcon, say among Devotees who are banded together acting under the auspices of the original instructions, thus the Real Iskcon, that this would be as Srila Prabhupada would approve?

 

To the degree that the formal ceremony enhances the FAITH of the disciple - it has substance.

The formal ceremony is actually just a process in which the acharya acknowledges that the disciple has absorbed the teachings and is practicing them.

 

In the Vaidica diksha, the diksha comes first and then the instructions begin.

In the Bhagavat diksha, the instructions come first and then the initiation is performed as a formal process for cementing the bond.

 

Formal diksha in the Bhagavat parampara is only meant to increase the faith and strength of the disciple.

 

It is NOT magic!

 

But, if someone has enough faith and enough strength to follow properly the teachings of the acharya, then that is sufficient.

 

Don't expect any Indian guru to ever say this though, the tradition and culture of India forbids it and NO Indian guru would ever challenge the status quo this way in the land of smarta religion.

 

In the western world, we just speak the basics because we don't have a smarta society that would turn us into a laughing stock.

 

Like in USA, we would never demean democracy or deride the concept.

But democracy is not absolute or infallible.

The smarta society of India is like that.

Their doctrine is not absolute, but they have so much influence on Hindu society that the Gaudiya acharyas do not come out and openly decry their diksha guru facade.

 

Devotees don't come to USA and preach communism.

Neither do they denounce the diksha parampara in India.

 

they practice their own form of diksha, but it is really not the same as the smarta diksha, though it might appear similar.

 

In essence, there is a big difference between the diksha parampara and the bhagavat parampara.

 

Like the difference between Narayana and Lord Krishna.

 

Majestic God vs. cowherd boy?

 

Pomp and circumstance vs. village sweetness?

[AncientMariner]

I have enjoyed reading this thread a lot. I like a lot of the ritviks and I like a lot of the traditionalists to be honest. I have always really enjoyed the posts of Mahak, and theist and Kulapavana but on the same token I even agree with a lot of the stuff I read in Puranjana Das newsletter so I don't know what to say.

[AncientMariner]

Wow. What you just said pretty much sums it all up very nicely my fellow Ancient Mariner. Very nice post but I am and always will be the original AncientMariner:deal: . Just kidding bro, seriously nice post.

 

 

To the degree that the formal ceremony enhances the FAITH of the disciple - it has substance.

The formal ceremony is actually just a process in which the acharya acknowledges that the disciple has absorbed the teachings and is practicing them.

 

In the Vaidica diksha, the diksha comes first and then the instructions begin.

In the Bhagavat diksha, the instructions come first and then the initiation is performed as a formal process for cementing the bond.

 

Formal diksha in the Bhagavat parampara is only meant to increase the faith and strength of the disciple.

 

It is NOT magic!

 

But, if someone has enough faith and enough strength to follow properly the teachings of the acharya, then that is sufficient.

 

Don't expect any Indian guru to ever say this though, the tradition and culture of India forbids it and NO Indian guru would ever challenge the status quo this way in the land of smarta religion.

 

In the western world, we just speak the basics because we don't have a smarta society that would turn us into a laughing stock.

 

Like in USA, we would never demean democracy or deride the concept.

But democracy is not absolute or infallible.

The smarta society of India is like that.

Their doctrine is not absolute, but they have so much influence on Hindu society that the Gaudiya acharyas do not come out and openly decry their diksha guru facade.

 

Devotees don't come to USA and preach communism.

Neither do they denounce the diksha parampara in India.

 

they practice their own form of diksha, but it is really not the same as the smarta diksha, though it might appear similar.

 

In essence, there is a big difference between the diksha parampara and the bhagavat parampara.

 

Like the difference between Narayana and Lord Krishna.

 

Majestic God vs. cowherd boy?

 

Pomp and circumstance vs. village sweetness?

[Kulapavana]

many new people who come to our Movement are looking for a live guru, and find much inspiration in some of Prabhupada's disciples. to knock down the faith of such people without just cause is both counterproductive and offensive. Prabhupada would say: just because there are many cheater gurus, that does not mean there is no geniune gurus. Some of the devotees currently serving Prabhupada as gurus perform great service and inspire thousands of people to serve Krishna and Prabhupada's mission. it is pretty obvious that Krishna acts through them as Sri Guru. indiscriminate criticism by the ritviks of all Iskcon gurus is a great disservice to Prabhupada. I work with a lot of new devotees and they are universally disgusted with the attitudes of most ritvik devotees. if you fight one problem philosophy with another problem philosophy all you end up with is a problem square.

 

so what? 40 years after coming to the West, Prabhupada did not produce a single pure devotee worthy of giving diksa to newcomers? they are all bogus, eh?

 

just like you thrived during the manifest presence of Srila Prabhupada these new people need and want to hear from a live guru, who can answer their question in unambiguous and clear way. that is a FACT!

 

YOU PEOPLE ARE A JOKE... and a very sad one too.. this movement will take off like a rocket after you are gone... you are just as bad as the truly bogus gurus you helped to create many years ago...

[Guest guest]

 

PRABHUPADA: Who is initiating. He is grand disciple.

 

Srila Prabhupada says clearly here that these new initiates will be the "grand disciple" of "who is initiating".

 

It sounds a little peculiar, but his saying that though he is giving them this ritvik diksha, they will be "grand disciple".

 

It is saying that they will be the grand disciple of the one that they are getting intiation from.

 

So, in this statement, Srila Prabhupada makes some distinction that even though these new intiates will be getting ritvik diksha from him, they will be known as grand disciples.

 

He is clearly telling these men that the new initiates after he is gone will be "grand disciple" of "who is initiating".

 

Because these new devotees will be under the care and guidance of senior ISKCON devotees, they will be known as "grand disciples" of the diksha guru.

[Guest guest]

And therein lies the rub Kulapavana.

 

The humble and qualified Senior devotees within Iskcon would simply do just as the Ancient Mariner has pointed out. They would give "care and guidance" to the new devotees. Thus they would be answering questions dircectly live and in person for anyone who appreciated that. No problem. They would be loved like older siblings or parents, and would give love in the way one does a younger sibling or child.

 

But following Srila Prabhupada's instructions they would NOT claim to be THE DIKSA GURU, as this would be CHANGING the particular unique and innovative system that their Spiritual Master and Achayra put in place.

 

Only an Acharya makes changes to the system he learned under according to a unique time place and circumstance, in other words, it is no longer workable.

 

But as any humble person can see, the ability to give Loving Care and Guidance (Siksa) is not dependent upon claiming to be the Diksa Guru of a person, and claiming that the person must follow your instruction eternally, even if it devitates from their own Acharya's (Srila Prabhupada's) instructions, and that they must serve their physical person exclusively as good as god, because hey, you are MY INITIATED DISCIPLE.

 

This was Srila Prabhupada's genius. While in Vapu form on the planet, he empowered his assistants to convey the Diksa ceremony process, the mantras were transcendentally potent by tape recording, and this never stopped people from having a loving exchange of care and guidance, but it provide a SAFEGUARD to prevent unqualified people from becoming "The Eternal Spiritual Master" of someone else just because they perform a ceremony on them.

 

And this could continue, without diluting anything. But he isn't here to chastise now. And anyone who tries to is banned, beaten, or killed, because there is too much to lose for a fakeroo Diksa Guru.

 

So the only way it remains a safeguard, is that people with a little courage can stand up and say, NO. You deviated. Here is the PROOF in the form of the iron clad instructions. You can now be held accountable in a court of law of some form or another, or at least now that you have been exposed as a cheater, some future innocent victims are forewarned, and may be saved from your tyranny.

[Kulapavana]

 

The humble and qualified Senior devotees within Iskcon would simply do just as the Ancient Mariner has pointed out. They would give "care and guidance" to the new devotees. Thus they would be answering questions dircectly live and in person for anyone who appreciated that. No problem. They would be loved like older siblings or parents, and would give love in the way one does a younger sibling or child.

 

I dont think you quite understand. These new people are looking for a real live diksa guru in every sense, and they are not getting what they desire from Prabhupada. I talk to these people every day. Our Polish Vaishnava site Vrinda routinely gets over 100,000 hits per month and NOBODY is interested in the ritvik philosophy. This is an independent site run by devotee volounteers on a shoe string budget and is open to ALL Vaishnavas. Wake up and smell the compost...

[M.M.]

Sorry, but just because some innocent person who has not one clue as to the Gaudiya Siddhanta claims to want a "Live Diksa Guru", does not give anyone unqualified to be such, to step up and say, oh well in that case I've got a piece of swampland in my brain I'd like to sell you a piece of.

 

As I have indicated, a sincere and KNOWLEDGEABLE person could explain to such an aspirant that perhaps what they need and what they think they want using words they have not yet come to essentially grasp, are 2 different things, and offer only what will truly benefit the person, which would be Siksa according to their Acharya, which includes a Diksa Ceremony, and a loving and caring Guidance counselor.

 

That is what they really want. They want a wise and loving and caring person to guide them and never let them down. They call this a LIVING DIKSA Guru. They can get the same thing from a living Siksa guru, who performs the Diksa ceremony on behalf of an Acharya who ordered it to be so, and nothing you say can diminish that potency.

 

But if you are qualified to Give Diksa in the fullest sense, and provide a unique system as Acharya with requisite changes in Siksa, then by all means, that means a unique time place and circumstance has arisen to which Srila Prabhupada's instructions no longer apply in totality, and you gotta do what you gotta do. Then you are a Living Diksa and Siksa Guru and Acharya and good on you.

 

Best be sure you got the stuff though. It is a long way down to Patal loka without Yamaraja holding your hand.

[Kulapavana]

 

Sorry, but just because some innocent person who has not one clue as to the Gaudiya Siddhanta claims to want a "Live Diksa Guru", does not give anyone unqualified to be such...

 

 

LOL! so the ritvik thing is now "Gaudiya siddhanta"? stop, please... it hurts too much from laughing...

 

 

 

Best be sure you got the stuff though. It is a long way down to Patal loka without Yamaraja holding your hand.

 

you think I want to initiate people? LOL! another good one... you are on a roll...

 

at that site we usually tell people who are serious about initiation to follow their heart and find among currently initiating Vaishnavas a person who inspires them the most to serve Krishna. we have there disciples of Iskcon and GM gurus, as well as some who accepted initiation from Vrindavana babajis. and there is no fighting and no disrespect.

[Guest guest]

 

LOL! so the ritvik thing is now "Gaudiya siddhanta"? stop, please... it hurts too much from laughing...

 

not what I said. There is a reason why a person does not address specific points raised in a discussion or debate, and instead concocts some other point, puts words in another's mouth, and belittles or challenges that instead.

 

This is intended as a diversion from the fact that the person cannot challenge directly what has been presented. And to be mocking indicates derision generated from an essential insecurity in the fact that the whole thing is a cover up.

 

 

you think I want to initiate people? LOL! another good one... you are on a roll...

 

Originally you said.

 

 

I dont think you quite understand. These new people are looking for a real live diksa guru in every sense, and they are not getting what they desire from Prabhupada. I talk to these people every day. Our Polish Vaishnava site Vrinda routinely gets over 100,000 hits per month and NOBODY is interested in the ritvik philosophy. This is an independent site run by devotee volounteers on a shoe string budget and is open to ALL Vaishnavas. Wake up and smell the compost...

 

YOU talk to these aspirants EVERY DAY. OUR (YOUR) site gets 100,000 hits per month.

 

and further

 

 

at that site we usually tell people who are serious about initiation to follow their heart and find among currently initiating Vaishnavas a person who inspires them the most to serve Krishna. we have there disciples of Iskcon and GM gurus, as well as some who accepted initiation from Vrindavana babajis. and there is no fighting and no disrespect.

 

YOU (WE) give instruction on how one is to become initiated.

 

And who is a "Currently Initiating Vaisnava"

 

Are you the one who vets (watches over and holds accountable) all these "Currently Initiating Vaisnavas". Are you on a platform to know that they are each and every one of them fully qualified to take their own eternal disciples and see that their Bhakti creeper reaches Krisna Loka. Or is it just possilbe that Maybe, just maybe, you might be sending this person to "choose their own" who "most inspires them", and they don't get the full deal.

 

In my opinion, if there is any doubt on your part, this is WORSE than wanting to initiate on your own, because at least you would have the chutzpah to directly accept responsibility.

 

It continues to amaze me how you underestimate my intelligence. You would be better off saying nothing sometimes.

 

Could not a caring Siksa guru inspire someone to serve Krishna without claiming to be Potent enough to be their Eternal Diksa Guru and Spiritual master by linking them with the vani of one who was BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT ONE AND THE SAME? Or is this not good enough for the Polish Yatra.

 

Perhaps A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's Vani was universal for the fallen souls of Kali Yuga especially in the West , except Poland.

 

I am astounded at your nerve to continue to argue in your defense on this matter, without ever conceding even the slightest possibility that you could have even the slightest imperfection in your approach, and may be putting others at risk.

 

Of course you also have shown in the past that you feel A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami put people at risk as well, so I guess I should not be surprised.

 

If you have anything authentic and honest to say in your defense that is backed by the actions of a Pure Acharya whose body of literature, instructions, and activities eclipses your own, that would be nice.

 

y.s.

 

Mark

[Kulapavana]

 

 

Perhaps A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's Vani was universal for the fallen souls of Kali Yuga especially in the West , except Poland.

 

 

 

by reading Prabhupada's books (vani), all these people get the strange idea that they need a living guru to guide them... imagine that?

 

 

I do not care to respond to the rest of your post as I have made my point many times on this thread.

 

but please clarify one thing for me:

 

do you, or do you not, consider the ritvik philosophy as presented by you to be Gaudiya siddhanta?

 

if you dont consider it Gaudiya siddhanta, than I will apologize and take back my joke.

 

as to the Vrinda site fyi: it is maintained and run by a group of Iskcon, post Iskcon, and GM devotees working together to bring people closer to Krishna and to mop up the mess made by various people in Iskcon over the years, including all the present controversies.

 

http://vrinda.net.pl/

 

the site has all Prabhupada's books in Polish posted and sercheable as well as many other graet resources. it also hosts lively discussion forum

 

http://vrinda.net.pl/vrinda/forum/

 

and a devotee chat room.

[Guest guest]

Kulapavana says:

 

LOL! so the ritvik thing is now "Gaudiya siddhanta"? stop, please... it hurts too much from laughing...

 

Well, you can be sure that the artificial diksha guru philosophy being practiced in ISKCON nowadays is NOT Gaudiya Siddhanta.

Gaudiya siddhanta does not support an artificial diksha guru system.

 

Gaudiya siddhanta about the parampara is that the Gaudiya parampara is a Bhagavat parampara based upon siksha gurus.

 

The disciplic succession that Srila Prabhupada gave is obviously a siksha guru parampara.

 

So, that a few new devotees without a clue are seeking some artificial diksha from unauthorized persons does not change the fact that the real Gaudiya siddhanta shows the parampara to be based on siksha gurus.

 

Devotees who want to make the Gaudiya sampradaya to be a diksha based parampara are not following Srila Prabhupada or the Saraswata Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

Newcomers who are gullible, naive and inexperiences are hardly the ones to be dictating the principles of the Gaudiya siddhanta.

[Guest guest]

 

I do not care to respond to the rest of your post as I have made my point many times on this thread.

 

This is the problem with Kali Yuga. Opinions are not in short supply. Everybody has one, and many are more than willing to offer em up.

 

But stack 100 of them end to end, and you still may not come up with a fact.

 

So making points in a discussion is one thing. Being unable to defend them as suitable to reality when someone refutes your point is another. In the old days, people discussed with an open mind and an objective to get at the truth, and if someone defeated their point, they were HAPPY to have been shown the truth, and integrated it with humility.

 

But these days, the majority of peoples existance is often based on a whole foundation of half-truths and worse, and someone like that apparently faces a world of hurt if they are attached and enjoy the lifestyle they have established from such.

 

But I am not here to rip out someone's foundation however faulty and then leave them hanging, and neither to become anyone's eternal spiritual master. Just thought I would share the truth, backed up by the statements of someone who I consider to be capable of offering decending knowledge, as there is an entire support system there within to catch a person willing to take advantage of recognizing such.

 

I bear you no ill will Kulapavana, and I have been stern and frank with your misconceptions because I know Srila Prabhupada and those who actually have followed his EXACT instructions, regardless of the austerity of doing so, even to a greater degree than I have been able to, exist and are willing to assist you or anyone who wishes to do the same.

 

And like I said, best wishes to you in doing your own thing, just please do not be one of those who tries to use any Iskcon property either Intellectual or Material to do so, for not only is this a serious offense against the Acharya and will not benefit you in that way, but you will be eventually arrested in your ability to do so by people smarter than you, who will stop you cold in your tracks.

 

So until you become a little more willing to accept you may be in error, and reply to rebuttals to the points you put forth as solid truth, I am not willing to go walk into a futher trap and elaborate on the latest question you have for no matter what I say, your past history shows you will not accept it anyway, and will pull just about any type of tactic to divert, obfuscate, and ultimately ignore what I say.

 

sincerely,

 

Mark

[Guest guest]

To show the value and potency of Srila Prabhupada's books, I would like to present a statement from Srila Prabhupada in his preface to KRSNA BOOK.

 

Srila Prabhupada writes:

 

By reading this ONE BOOK, KRSNA, love of Godhead will fructify.

 

There are no prerequisites or stipulations attached to this statement.

It stands on it's own and is self-explanatory.

 

One does not need any artificial diksha guru.

 

Just absorb the writings of Srila Prabhupada and live by his principles.

 

New devotees who don't read these books but who want diksha from an ISKCON guru and an ISKCON meal-ticket don't have a clue as to the actual potency that Srila Prabhupada infused into his books.

 

REAL diksha is there in the books of Srila Prabhupada.

[Kulapavana]

 

So making points in a discussion is one thing. Being unable to defend them as suitable to reality when someone refutes your point is another. In the old days, people discussed with an open mind and an objective to get at the truth, and if someone defeated their point, they were HAPPY to have been shown the truth, and integrated it with humility.

 

hmmm... like your opinions on the Prabhupada appointment tape are "the truth" and mine are a "mere speculation"? and like you refuted all my arguments and I none of yours?... whatever... do you have an open mind? somehow I have not noticed... yet such differences between us do not bother me very much and I dont need to convert others to my point of view.

 

we should simply work to inspire some people to serve Krishna the way we know works best, then it will be some seva on our behalf. best of luck, Mark, or whatever your real name is.

[Guest guest]

My name is Mark, but I can't prove it to you handily, should I not make that claim?

 

My so called opinion on the words of Srila Prabhupada from the transcript of the May 28th tape was backed up by the way I related them to the context of the near term history of the initiation system he had implemented and was working with, other words of his, from his books and conversations, a real document containing an institutional directive referring to the conversation, and containing his signature, and all this to refute YOUR OPINION to the contrary.

 

I have not spoken one falsehood. Yet I claim you are misinformed and misdirected on some issues and used plenty of proof to back it up, and you deride me, misdirect, feign indignation and then to top it off, question my integrity as to whether I sign my real name?

 

I am sorry, you must be feeling pretty badly and I must have pressed the truth upon you in a harsh way despite what I thought was care.

 

I trust in the long run, you will bounce back fully, as you are guided by the Lord in your heart according to your own good timing.

 

best wishes.

 

insert name.

 

just kidding.

 

Mark McLaughlin. (just so all you Big Guru's out there know who to send your Goon squads after, and to ban from all of "YOUR" temples. Bring it on.

[Kulapavana]

 

My so called opinion on the words of Srila Prabhupada from the transcript of the May 28th tape was backed up by the way I related them to the context of the near term history of the initiation system he had implemented and was working with, other words of his, from his books and conversations, a real document containing an institutional directive referring to the conversation, and containing his signature, and all this to refute YOUR OPINION to the contrary.

 

and I take that tape at face value, as I have presented it earlier. Again, to me it clearly represents a temporary arrangement while there were no qualified disciples to become fully vested initiating (diksa) gurus and while Prabhupada was still on the planet. You may call it my opinion, but that opinion happens to follow our Gaudiya tradition, while yours does not.

[Guest guest]

Your so called Gaudiya Tradition is what your Acharyadeva tells you it is Mr. Kulapavana.

 

I thought you were not interested in taking disciples.

 

And now you are defining a tradition of activity which contramands the orders of Srila Prabhupada.

 

You can't have it both ways.

 

Srila Prabhupada broke with traditional systems in numerous ways, and if one has faith that he was Acharyadeva, maintained the ESSENCE.

 

But the one break from tradition that does not allow for people to go ahead and make all the changes they want on the claim they are liberated and thus can do that,

 

that one break is stepped on, vilified, and thrown out IMMEDIATELY.

 

First things first. You can't steal your Guru's house and weaker minded disciples with the one rule standing in your way of being someone who can change at will to suit the "new circumstances"

 

IS THERE ANYONE ELSE READING THIS? IS THERE NOONE ELSE HERE WHO SEES THE UTTER HYPOCRISY HERE AND WILL LEND A SINGLE WORD IN SUPPORT FOR WHAT I SAY??

 

I am just stunned. But resolute. This is a public forum. The truth is the only justice, and we are speaking of peoples Spiritual lives here. Please reconsider your position.

 

Mark

[Kulapavana]

 

But the one break from tradition that does not allow for people to go ahead and make all the changes they want on the claim they are liberated and thus can do that,

 

that one break is stepped on, vilified, and thrown out IMMEDIATELY.

 

First things first. You can't steal your Guru's house and weaker minded disciples with the one rule standing in your way of being someone who can change at will to suit the "new circumstances"

 

 

and of course you dont see that what I believe Prabhupada wanted in terms of parampara continuation is precisely NOT making changes, but following the Gaudiya tradition under which all previous acharyas, including Prabhupada, became gurus? how is that a change?

 

as to stealing my Guru's house... what on earth are you talking about? I live and preach outside Iskcon, in structures I helped to build, and never had any desire (or qualifications) to be anybody's guru. I present Srila Prabhupada's books and philosophy in accordance with the understanding of GV tradition and siddhanta to all who want to listen. I have been doing that for more than two decades now. I often preach side by side with Iskcon devotees, some of whom I deeply respect. I also cooperate with some GM devotees, whom I deeply respect as well.

 

anyway, I'm glad in 3 days all this insanity will be over.

 

you are right, jndas!

[Guest guest]

Sorry Kulapavana.

 

Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. If my purpose was actually to convince you of the truth of my position, I could readily be considered thus, however I never had any illusion of that being an eventuality, because you have too much to lose. I had another much more "sane" reason for enduring your flip-flopping and lack of reasonable concession.

 

On the other hand, the insanity you exhibit by using a sophisticated rational mind to support contradictions will not end by a ban on the speech of those who would point out your errors.

 

What you "believe" Srila Prabhupada wanted and what he explicitly introduced can be and apparently are 2 different things.

 

But I do not need to prove that to you. I never did, because I knew you would not accept the facts of reality.

 

The only reason why I persisted in countering your claims that were not backed up by authority was in the chance that there was ONE person who would read this thread at ANY time in the future who was innocently aspiring for devotional service, who had a sound and reasonable mind, that they might see what lies ahead if they are not careful, as there are so many misinterpretations born of Srila Prabhupada's teachings and instructions.

 

The evidence is there in this Ritvik thread for all to see and make up their own mind who is "insane" and who is on the level.

 

And of course I still wish you well. For what it is worth.

 

sincerely,

 

Mark