muralidhar Posted October 8, 2002 Report Share Posted October 8, 2002 Saraswati! "People of this world who are proud of their own aristocratic birth cannot attain real aristocracy. Therefore they attack the pure Vaishnavas, saying, 'They have taken birth in low-class families because of their sins.' Thus they commit offenses. The solution to the problem is to establish the order of daiva-varnasrama-dharma - something you have started doing; you should know that to be the real service to the Vaishnavas. Because pure devotional conclusions are not being preached, all kinds of superstitions and bad concepts are being called devotion by such pseudo-sampradayas as sahajiya and atibari. Please always crush these anti-devotional concepts by preaching pure devotional conclusions and by setting an example through your personal conduct. "Please make great effort so you can start parikram of Sridham Navadwip as soon as possible. It is by those actions that everyone in this world will receive Krishna-bhakti. Please try very hard to make sure that the service to Sri Mayapur will become a permanent thing and will become brighter and brighter every day. The real service to Sri Mayapur can be done by acquiring printing presses, distributing devotional books, and sankirtan - preaching. Please do not neglect to serve Sri Mayapur or to preach for the sake of your own reclusive bhajan. "When I am not present any more, please take care to serve Sri Mayapur Dham which is so dear to you. This is my special instruction to you. People who are like animals can never attain devotion; therefore never take their suggestions. But do not let them know this directly or indirectly. "I had a special desire to preach the significance of such books as Srimad Bhagavatam, Sat Sandarbha, and Vedanta Darshan. You have to accept that responsibility. Sri Mayapur will prosper if you establish an educational institution there. Never make any effort to collect knowledge or money for your own enjoyment. Only to serve the Lord will you collect these things. Never engage in bad association, either for money or for some self-interest. signed, Kedarnatha Datta Bhaktivinode <hr> http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/nmj_articles/parampara/parampara1_2.html The letter (1910) above is from Bhaktivinode Thakura to Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muralidhar Posted October 8, 2002 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2002 <center>Brahmins and Vaishnavas by Sri Bhakti Kusum Sraman Maharaja</center> Feeling pained by the distress of others, caused by the misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the pure principles of Vaishnavism, there arose in Prabhupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura an indomitable enthusiasm to preach in an extensive manner Sriman Mahaprabhu's pristine religion of divine love. At that time his initiating spiritual master Srila Gaura Kishore das Babaji Maharaja, who would not allow anyone to touch his feet, by his own will bestowed the dust of his feet upon the head of Srila Saraswati Thakura and gave him the order to preach the message of Mahaprabhu in an extensive way. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada preached strongly about the conclusions of the scriptures which corruptly selfish readers of the scriptures conceal. siksa guruke ta' jani krishnera svarupa antaryarni bhakta srestha ei dui rupa. "I know the instructing Guru to he the own-self of Krishna in these two Forms - the in-dwelling Monitor and the best of devotees." Ch. Car. (Adi 1/47) In the Anubhasya (commentary) to this verse of the Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita, Srila Sarasvati Thakura has written, "He who gives instruction on Hari bhajana is the instructing (siksa) Guru. A Guru or Acharya is never devoid of bhajana or badly behaved. The great Guru who takes bliss in bhajana and the mental Guru (Chitta-guru) Who gives the discrimination for accepting things favorable to bhajana are the two types of instructors. The instructions of bhajana differ with the differences in the stage of practice (sadhana) and attainment (sadhya). Sri Gurudeva, the bestower of Krishna, by enriching his disciple with the knowledge of relationship (sambandhanana) unfolds to him the realization of his own service. After attaining the grace of that initiating Guru, the instructions, which are then given on the immaculate service of Vishnu, are described by the name 'abhideya'. The instructing Gu ru in the form of a servitor - the embodiment of abhideya, is not a different entity from the initiating Guru - the bestower of sambandhanana. Both of them are Gurudeva. To see or understand them unequally brings spiritual offence. Between Krishna's Form (rupa) and His Own Self (svarupa) there is none of the dissimilarity brought about by language. The initiating Guru is Sanatana - the bestower of Madana Mohana’s Lotus Feet. To the souls who have forgotten God and are unable to roam in Vraja he gives the realization of the Feet of God as one's all in all. The instructing Guru is Rupa - the bestower of the fitness to perform service to Govinda and to the Feet of His Dearest One." In the eighth chapter of the Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita we can see Sriman Mahaprabhu saying to Srila Raya Ramananda kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya yei krishna tattva vetta sei guru haya "Whether one be a Brahmin, or a Sannyasi, or a Sudra, he who is versed in the truth of Krishna is a Guru." In the Anubhasya to the that verse Srila Sarasvati Thakura has written, "Let him be a Brahmin by caste, or let him be a Ksatriya, Vaisya or Sudra ; let him be a sannyasi by stage of life or let him be a brahmachari, vanaprastha or grihastha ; let him be situated in any caste or stage of life - he who is versed in the truth of Krishna can become a Guru, i.e. a vartmapradarsaka-Guru, an instructing Guru or an initiating Guru. The fitness to be a Guru rests only upon the knowledge of the truth of Krishna - it does not rest upon caste or stage of life; this direction of Sriman Mahaprabhu is not opposed to the scriptural directions. By following the purport of this Sri Visvambhara Mahaprabhu was initiated by the sannyasi Sri lsvara Pun. Sri Nityananda Prabhu was Initiated by the sannyasi Sri Madhavendra Puri Gosvami (by Srimat Laksmipati Tirtha according to another opinion) and Sri Advaitacharya was initiated by the sannyasi Sri Madhavendra Puri. Sri Rasikananda was initiated with Pancharatrika initiation by Sri Syamananda who appeared in a family who were not seminal Brahmins, Sri Ganganarayana Chakravarti and Sri Ramakrishna Bhattacharya (seminal Brahmins) were initiated by Sri Narottama Thakura who appeared in a family who were not seminal Brahmins, and Katwa's Sri Yadunandana Chakravarti was Initiated by Sri Dasa Gadadhara. Being a religious-minded hunter etc. was not even an obstacle for many people to become instructing Gurus. By the proper application of the rules of the Mahabharata's clear injunctions in pursuance of the Vaishnava faith and by the utterance in Srimad Bhagavata's Seventh Canto, Eleventh Chapter, 32nd verse yasya yal laksanam proktath pumso varna bhiv yanjakam yadan yatrapi dris yeta tattenaiva vinirdiset "The signs (qualities) that divide mankind into castes have been described, wherever those qualities are observed then the appropriate caste will be ascertained there accordingly. (Caste will not be ascertained by birth alone." A person who is versed in the truth of Krishna naturally has the character of a Brahmin. Therefore, wherever it is said that anything apart from 'seminal Brahminism' (which is introduced in the Age of Kali ) will not do, Mahaprabhu has carefully given us the understanding that even a 'seminal Sudra' who is a knower of the truth of Krishna is able to become the Guru there, for he has attained scriptural Brahminism. Those knowers of the truth of Krishna who do not accept the Savitra Samskara ( the ceremony of acceptance of the sacred thread ), which is mentioned in the Katyayana Grihyasutra within the Vedic Vajasaneya section, are all Brahrnins initiated in the ekayana. However, most of the time, foolish people are unable to understand that they are infallible Brahmins (achyuta brahmana) and they thus become condemned to hell. It is for this reason that the sacred thread ceremony and the function of acting as Acharyas even for seminal Brahmin sects has been going on since the very beginning in Rasikananda Prabhu's family, in Navani Hoda's family and in Mukunda Dasa's family of Khetari. It is not that since the bhajanandi Vaishnavas have not accepted the savitra samskara that this is the only rule. Vaishnavas ascertain caste by characteristics. But, as foolish people are unable to ascertain caste in that manner, Sri Mahaprabhu has clearly given the understanding of the purport of the scriptures. Even though the compiled conclusions of the Haribhaktivilasa are one with "Mahaprabhu's exemplary behavior end instructions, people, by the judgement of fools, are under the belief that they differ. By their judgement the quoted word 'Guru' alludes to the sravana (hearing) Guru or to the Guru instructing on bhajana, it does not allude to the initiating or mantra-giving Guru, since, in their opinion, the fitness to be the bestower of divine knowledge is ascertained and introduced by family reputation, that is, by blood or semen ; so by their idea, devotion to Krishna, the propensity of the pure soul, is not independent. Moreover, according to their foolishness, the initiating or mantra - giving Guru is superior to the sravana -Guru and the instructing Guru on bhajana. Factually, the only result of this type of idea which is born from sensory knowledge is spiritual offence." In the conclusion of the Amritapravaha-Bhasya on Sriman Mahaprabhu's aforementioned saying, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura has written, "When it is mentioned in the Haribhaktivilasa that if there is a fit person of a high caste present then it is improper to accept the Krishna mantra from a person of low caste, then this is vaishnavism relative to the society ; that is, it is for those who practice family life by the customary rules and who have somewhat of a desire for spirituality. But for those people who know the import of vaidhi and raganuga bhakti and who wish to get pure Krishna devotion, the rule for them is that in whatever caste or stage of life the suitable knower of the truth of Krishna may be in, he should be respectfully accepted as a Guru. In the words of the Padma Purana quoted in the Sri Haribhaktivilasa na sudrah bhagavad bhaktasthe'pi bhagavatottamah sarva varnesu te sudra ye na bhaktah janardane sat karma nipuno vipro mantra tantra visradah avaisnavo gurur na syad vaisnavah svapaco guruh maha kulaprasuto'pi sarva yajnesu diksitah sahasra sakha dhyayi ca na guruh syada vaisnavah vipra ksatriya vaisyas ca guravah sudra janmanam sudras ca guravas tesam trayanam bhagavat priyah "Those who have taken recourse to the devotion of Krishna are never to be counted as Sudras but they are to be glorified as Bhagavatas. Amidst all the castes, those people who are devoid of devotion to Sri Janardana are Sudras. A Brahmin who is expert in the six works and also in mantras and the tantra should not be selected as a Guru if he is a non-Vaishnava. If someone from a dog-eater family is a Vaishnava he may be accepted as a Guru. Even if one is born in the best of families, even if one is initiated in all the sacrifices and is learned in all the branches of the Vedas, if he is a non-Vaishnava he is unable to become a Guru. Generally, Brahmins, Ksatriyas and Vaisyas should be the Gurus of Sudras but even Sudras can be the Gurus of these three castes if they are dear to God ." In the Padma Purana there is also another saying arcye visnau siladhir gurusu nara matir vaisnave jati budhir visnor va vaisnavanam kalimala mathane pada tirthe’ mbu buddhi sri visnor namni mantre saka’ akalusahe sabda samanya buddhir visnau sarves varese tada tira samadhir yasya va naraki sah "That person who thinks the worshipped Deity to be just stone, who considers the Vaishnava Guru to be a mortal human being, who considers the caste of a Vaishnava, who considers the water that has washed the feet at Vishnu and Vaishnavas to be just water, who considers the Name and Mantra of Vishnu, which is the destroyer of all sins, to be just a sound, and who considers the Lord of lords Vishnu to be equal to other demigods is condemnable to hell." na me' bhaktas caturvedi mad bhaktah svapacah priyah tasmai deyam tato grahyam sa ca punyo yatha hy aham "It is not that if one is versed in the four Vedas, i. e. is a Choube Brahmin, then he is a 'devotee'. Even if My devotee is dog-eater he is dear to Me, the devotee is the proper object of charity and the proper acceptor of gifts; devotees are just as worshippable as Me." It has been described in the Srimad Bhagavata (3-33-8)- aho bata svapaco'to gariyan yaj jih vagre vartate nama tubhyam te pusta paste juhuvuh sasnur aryah brahman ucurnar na grinanti ye te "Oh Lord, Those persons in whose mouths Your Name is present, even though they be born in a dog-eater family, are the best of all. Those persons who glorify Your Name have performed all types of penances, they have done all sacrifices and they have bathed in all the holy places, therefore they are to be counted amongst the Aryans." vipra ad dvisada guna yutada dara vinda nabha padaravinda vimukhat svapacam baristham manye tadarpita mano vacane hitartha pranam punati sa kulam na tu bhuri manah (Bhagavata 7-9-9) "Even if they be dog-eaters, I respect those people who dedicate their mind, endeavor, words, wealth and life to Krishna as being better than Brahmins who are endowed with the twelve qualities but who are adverse to the Lotus Feet of Krishna, because he (the devotee appearing in a dog-eater family) purifies his family, and proud Brahmins are unable to do that." In the Sri Hari bhakti sudhodaya Third Chapter, verses 11 and 12, bhagavad bhakti hinasya jatih sastram japastapah apranasyaiva dehasya mandanam lokaranjanam sucih sad bhakti diptag nidag dhadur jati kalmasah svapko'pi budaih slaghyo na veda jno'pi nastikah "The noble family, knowledge of the scriptures, japa and penances of people devoid of devotion to God are just like the ornaments of a dead body and are of no use at all, they are only for public entertainment. Those people whose sins of low birth have been burnt up by the blazing fire of good character and true devotion, even though they be dog-eaters, are respected by the learned, but even if an atheist knows the Vedas he is not worthy of respect. The words of the Tattvasagara in the Sri Hari Bhaktivilasa's second Vilasa, twelfth verse yatha kancha natam yati kasyam rasa vidha natah tatha diksa vidhanena dvija tvam jayate nrinam "In the same manner that bell-metal attains the quality of being gold by the influence of a special chemical process, so also, by the influence of initiation men attain the state of being twice-born (i.e. Brahminism)." In the commentary to this verse the conclusion of Srila Sanatana Gosvami Prabhu is nrinam sarvesameva dvija tvam 'viprata' . (All men can attain the Brahminism of the twice born.) There is also the statement of the Vishnupurana in relation to the glories of mahaprasada naivedyam jagadisasya tvan napa nadi kancha yat bhaksya bhaksya vicaras ca nasti tad bhaksane dvijah brahma vinnirv vikaram hi yatha visnus tathaiva tat vikaram ye prakur vanti bhaksane tat dvija tayah kusthav yadi sama yuktah putra dara vivarjitah nirayam yanti vipras tasman na vartate punah "Oh Brahmins ! No kind of consideration is to be given to the edibility or non-edibility of the things such as food and drink, which have been offered to Vishnu. Those Brahmins who judge about its edibility lose their sons and wives and being attacked with leprosy go to hell, from where they do not return." When all of these non-envious Bhagavata conclusions were preached on a large scale by Srila Prabhupada, and when many descendants of Brahmins accepted initiation from a few Vaishnava acharyas who came from families other than Brahmins by following the conclusion of Sriman Mahaprabhu's above mentioned verse and also the ideal of Sri Ramakrishna Bhattacharya and Sri Ganganarayana Chakravarti's acceptance of initiation from Srila Narottama Thakura, who appeared in a Kayastha family, a terrible agitation was seen amongst the Karmajada Smartas. They girded up their loins to prove the Vaishnavas to be lowly. A few established people of the caste Gosvami sect also joined those Smartas due to the attachment of the materialistic social tie, and instead of exhibiting the moral courage to protest against them, they began to support them. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, who was then bed-ridden with rheumatism, said in a roaring voice, "ls there not such a person manifest in the Vaishnava world who is capable to hold a meeting with them and by the conclusions and original logic of the scriptures put a stop to these lowly activities which are the frenzied dance of the three material qualities ?" Srila Sarasvati Thakura then wrote "Brahmana 0 Vaisnavera Taratamya Visayaka Siddhanta" (The conclusion about the subject of comparison between Brahmins and Vaishnavas) and read it to Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura. [This discussion can be seen in the book ‘Brahmana 0 Vaishnava’ published from Sri Chaitanya Math, Sridham Mayapur.] Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura was so glad upon hearing the essay that, although he was unable to arise, out of joy he sat up and said to Srila Sarasvati Thakura in vigorous language, "Sarasvati, truly, truly Sarasvati! Truly, truly the acharya sun, lighting the face of the Vaishnava world. By the light of these judgements the darkness of the Karmajada Smarta's doctrine will certainly s oon be dispelled." At 3 p.m. on Friday 8th September 1911 A. D, the meeting for the discussion between the Karmajada Smarta Brahmins and the Vaishnavas was begun at Midnapore District's Balighat Uddhavapura. Prabhupada Srila Sarasvati Thakura set out from Calcutta with Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura's follower Sriyukta Sureshchandra Mukhopadhyaya on the 6th September and at 10 p. m. he reached the Sauri Prapannasrama where he saw that Panditapravara Srila Madhusudhana Gosvami Sarvabhauma (of Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvamipada's family) from Sridhama Vrindavana's Radharamana enclosure and Panditapravara Srila Visvambharananda Devagosvami (of Srila Shyamananda Prabhu's family) from Sripata Gopivallabhapura were waiting for him there. The two Gosvamipadas and Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura's follower Srimat Sitanatha Bhaktitirtha Mahasaya accorded Srila Prabhupada a reception with the honor befitting an Acharya. In their mutual meeting of giving and taking affection the waves of bliss began to flow. Srila Sarasvati Thakura, along with the other Vaishnavas, arrived for the meeting on the 8th September. The seminal Brahmin pandits of the Karmajada society also joined the meeting from various places at the correct time. Many people introduced by the name of descendants of customary Acharyas from the caste Gosvami society also took their seats in the debate under the Karmajada party. By the Karmajada Smarta's opinion: 1) Even if a person appearing in a Sudra family is initiated by the Pancharatrika initiation according to the Vaishnavite scriptural rules, still he is not fit to worship the Salagrama. 2) He who does not take his birth in a Brahmin family by seminal consideration is not fit to undertake all tasks. Even if he is a Vaishnava of the highest order (uttama adhikari) he is never able to perform the duties of an Acharya. By the consent of all, Panditapravara Sri Visvambharananda Devagosvami accepted the Chair as the meeting’s president. Prabhupada Srila Sarasvati Thakura then began to recite the conclusions which were written in the ‘Brahmana 0 Vaisnavera Taratamya Visavaka Siddhanta,' in order to destroy the said doctrine. This address is divided into the Prakritajana section and the Harijana section. When he began to recite the glories of Brahmins from the Prakritajana section the pandits of the opposing side lost themselves in joy. It was not known to them that there were this many utterances in various scriptures expressing the glories of Brahmins. When the discussion was begun clearly with the original reasoning of the scriptures as to who is a Brahmin, who is a Vaishnava, what is the relationship between them both and who is whose Guru etc., the joy of those people opposed to the Vaishnavas vanished. On not getting any suitable counter many people amongst them started an uproar. After the uproar was quelled some argumentative people spoke three or four statements no doubt, but they were reduced to ashes immediately by the cannon like good logic issuing forth from Srila Sarasvati Thakura's mouth. Gradually, the meeting went on for three days. Making known the substantiality of Srila Sarasvati Thakura's conclusion, Srila Madhusudana Gosvami Sarvabhauma, Sriyukta Ramananda Dasa Babaji and Sriyukta Sitanatha Bhaktitirtha Mahodaya lectured on the subject that no matter what family a Vaishnava appears in, he always has perfect fitness for worship of the Salagrama and recital of the Vedas. On the final day, Srila Sarasvati Thakura, as concluding speaker, delivered a speech in vigorous and ornate language for a period of two hours. There remained nothing for the opposite side to counter. Thousands of voices extensively proclaimed the victory of the Vaishnavas. After the meeting thousands and thousands of people halted and surrounded Srila Prabhupada in order to take the dust of his feet. The guards told them to stay peacefully and assured everyone that their longed for object would be given. The guards then took a large basin full of water for touching his feet in and took Srila Prabhupada to another place. To give the water that washed his feet was a far-removed subject. Srila Prabhupada would never even allow anyone to touch his feet. If anyone prostrated to him he would immediately return the prostration and exhibit the behavior of the Vaishnava's ideal - ''I shall not take anyone's worship." To protect Srila Prabhupada from the pressure of the crowd, despite his intense objections. The guards forcefully collected the water which had touched his feet and then took Srila Prabhupada to a resting-place. Gradually, a few water pots full of water were added to this water and within a short time it was completely exhausted. On receiving the water which had washed Srila Prabhupada's feet the people were grateful and felt blessed. http://www.mahaprabhu.net/brahvais.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muralidhar Posted October 8, 2002 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2002 Dear Devotees, Please take note of the significant dates referred to above. The letter from Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur was written in 1910. The meeting at Midnapore was on Friday 8th September 1911. Muralidhar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted October 8, 2002 Report Share Posted October 8, 2002 What do you see as particularly significant in them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muralidhar Posted October 9, 2002 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2002 Srila Saraswati Thakur had been living in Mayapur and rendering service there since 1900. In 1910 Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur gave him this instruction: "The real service to Sri Mayapur can be done by acquiring printing presses, distributing devotional books, and sankirtan - preaching. Please do not neglect to serve Sri Mayapur or to preach for the sake of your own reclusive bhajan." Srila Bhaktinode Thakur also instructed Saraswati Thakur to establish daiva-varnasrama-dharma. Sripad Narasingha Maharaj and others make the point that this is certainly approval for Srila Saraswati Thakur to accept the the ashrama of sannyasa (he accepted sannyasa eight years later). In the following year, September 1911, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur sent Sarsaswati Thakur to Midnapore to debate against the opposition group of Karmajada Smartas and some caste Gosvami people. Saraswati Thakur was not alone when he went there. Saraswati Thakur entered the meeting accompanied by "Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura's follower Sriyukta Sureshchandra Mukhopadhyaya", and members of "Srila Shyamananda Prabhu's family", and of "Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvamipada's family" from Radharamana. At the conclusion of the meeting thousands of people halted and surrounded Srila Prabhupada in order to take the dust of his feet. - These events happened five years before Srila Gaurkishore Babaji left this world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonehearted Posted October 9, 2002 Report Share Posted October 9, 2002 Mualidhar wrote: "In the following year, September 1911, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur sent Sarsaswati Thakur to Midnapore to debate against the opposition group of Karmajada Smartas and some caste Gosvami people. Saraswati Thakur was not alone when he went there. Saraswati Thakur entered the meeting accompanied by "Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura's follower Sriyukta Sureshchandra Mukhopadhyaya", and members of "Srila Shyamananda Prabhu's family", and of "Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvamipada's family" from Radharamana." stone: I heard Vishvambhar Goswami of Radharamana temple recount that his grandfather spent some time with Sarasvati Thakur planning thier approach to this topic and that he accompanied BSST to that meeting. I have this on tape somewhere at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted October 9, 2002 Report Share Posted October 9, 2002 There is sometimes controversy surrounding the meeting. Some propose that Vipin Vihari Gosvami, Bhaktivinoda's diksa-guru, was in favor of the smarta position. However, in his book on the history of the Baghna Pada Vaishnavas, Kanan Bihari Goswami states: “He [bipin Bihari Goswami] defeated the scriptural considerations of the Smarta pandits and demonstrated the superiority of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.” That's interesting to note. Muralidhar: Srila Bhaktinode Thakur also instructed Saraswati Thakur to establish daiva-varnasrama-dharma. Sripad Narasingha Maharaj and others make the point that this is certainly approval for Srila Saraswati Thakur to accept the the ashrama of sannyasa (he accepted sannyasa eight years later). Could you present some references where Bhaktivinoda presents his idea of Daivi Varhashrama-dharma? I am particularly interested in passages wherein this very term is employed by him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muralidhar Posted October 9, 2002 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2002 I don't have the books in front of me, but I believe varnashram is discussed in Jaiva Dharma and Chaitanya Siksamrtam. I know that in his commentary to Sri Tattva Sutra he discusses how a person should be able to assess his own nature and see what sort of varna he belongs to. And if a person cannot understand what his station in life is, then the individual should approach a Guru to get guidance. Daivi, of course, means that the varnashram Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur was referring to is not the hereditary caste system. It is a varnashram system where the status of a person is determined by his/her natural qualities. I have read many, many excerpts during the past couple of days in regard to the caste being ascertained not by birth but by eligibility. Do I need to post these links at some time? They are already well known. Viswamitra of the Ramayana is one example, and I have read similar statements in the Upanishads. In Sri Krishna Samhita we find Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura says that when Aryan culture came to south india some of the indigenous people became converted as members of the Aryan civilization and became new lineages of brahmnins. Of course it is well known that this happened in places such as Thailand and Bali in Indonesia, where the inhabitants accepted the culture and philosophy coming from India. But it is interesting to read the way that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur has presented this subject in Sri Krishna Samhita. Madhava said: <hr> However, in his book on the history of the Baghna Pada Vaishnavas, Kanan Bihari Goswami states: “He [bipin Bihari Goswami] defeated the scriptural considerations of the Smarta pandits and demonstrated the superiority of Gaudiya Vaishnavism <hr> Interesting. I remember reading Nitai the skeptik saying some place that the great debate with the Smarta pandits never happened at all. Does your writer Kanan Bihari Goswami have anything to say about Srila Saraswati Thakur in regard to that great debate at Midnapore? Murali Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muralidhar Posted October 9, 2002 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2002 stone said: <hr> I heard Vishvambhar Goswami of Radharamana temple recount that his grandfather spent some time with Sarasvati Thakur planning thier approach to this topic and that he accompanied BSST to that meeting. I have this on tape somewhere at home. <hr> Dear Stone, I would love to get a transcription of that tape! Please! Murali Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonehearted Posted October 9, 2002 Report Share Posted October 9, 2002 Maybe I could transcribe the section where he discusses this. Between grading lots of papers, participating in committees, my sadhana, and editing work I'm committed to doing, finding time for this will take a little work. This requires searching three audiotapes to find it. If I don't post something in a couple of weeks, please remind me. Babhru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muralidhar Posted October 9, 2002 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2002 Yes I can appreciate that you have lots to do. Take a couple of weeks. That's fine. I'm in the process of collecting lots of documents from different sources in regard to this topic at the moment. It is a rather important project that I have in mind, but it will take a little while to complete. Murali. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted October 10, 2002 Report Share Posted October 10, 2002 I don't have the books in front of me, but I believe varnashram is discussed in Jaiva Dharma and Chaitanya Siksamrtam. I recall the term "Daivi Varnashram" is nowhere to be found in these two titles from my readings of them. I stand to be corrected, though, if our audience can present any such reference. Daivi, of course, means that the varnashram Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur was referring to is not the hereditary caste system. It is a varnashram system where the status of a person is determined by his/her natural qualities. I have read many, many excerpts during the past couple of days in regard to the caste being ascertained not by birth but by eligibility. Do I need to post these links at some time? They are already well known. What is there particularly "daivi" in a caste system of one kind or another? I think the only factor that can make it "daivi" is the performance of occupational duties for the pleasure of Vishnu, whether they be hereditary or not. There are certainly several verses to prove that caste is by qualification. And there are equally numerous verses which are twisted to fit the purpose, unfortunately. There are some interesting excerpts I posted from Bhaktivinoda in regards to birth and a brahmin's occupational duties in an earlier thread. You can read them here. Bhaktivinoda discusses the subject matter of Varnashrama and sannyasa-ashrama in his Caitanya Siksamritam, Chapter 2, section 4 -- Delineation of Asramas (Sree Gaudiya Math, Chennai, 1983 / 1998). Some quotes and my notes on them. <font color="darkblue">"The brahmanas take up the householder's life after their brahmacarya life, the ksatriyas adopt the householder's life after returning from their guru's house having studied sastras proper for them, the vaishyas become householders after studying portions of the Vedas' teachings on the breeding, cattle-trade and animal husbandry. The shudras may become householders as soon as they reach majority ie. adult life."</font color> It is interesting to note how Bhaktivinoda presents the classical varna-asrama-dharma concept. The division of varna above is evidently done at least in the early childhood of an individual, if not based on his birth. In this context, I am reflecting on Bhaktisiddhanta's reform on how all Vaishnavas adopt upavita and brahminhood (along with a brahmin's occupational duties I'd expect) upon receiving diksa-mantras. It does not exactly fit into the scenario of Varnashrama education presented by Bhaktivinoda above. Bhaktivinoda then delineates the duties of a vanaprastha and a sannyasi. He more or less repeats the classical idea from the seventh canto of the Bhagavata. First vanaprastha: <font color="darkblue">"The Vanaprastha (residence in forest) is the third stage of life. The house-holder should take up the Vanaprastha (3rd stage of life at the matured age, leaving back his wife in the care of his son or if there is no further chance for begetting issues should take her with him to the forests. He should fully restrain his wants there. The duties of a Vanaprastha are sleeping on the bare-ground, putting on barks of trees as the main apparel and scarf, abandonment of shaving, adoption of the function of a muni (hermit), refraining from talks except those all about the service of God, bathing at the three periods of the day for prayer viz. morning, noon and evening, serving strangers as far as practicable, living on fruits and roots and worship of God in the solitary parts of the forests. Members of all the castes are competent for taking up the third stage of life."</font color> Bhaktivinoda states that members of all the castes are competent for vanaprastha. That is, of course, if they are prepared to sleep on bare ground and dressing with tree-bark, giving up shaving etc. Then sannyasa: <font color="darkblue">"Sannyasa (Asceticism) is fhe fourth stage of life. The ascetic is called bhiksu (beggar or mendicant) or Parivrajaka (having no permanent residence). When persons belonging to the three stages of life afore-said, become completely indifferent to worldly affairs, always painstaking, conversant with the ultimate truth, without any desire for companionship but their mind always footed on God, careless about pleasure and pain maintaining equality with all, kind hearted, non-envious and given to meditation are eligible for the fourth stage viz. Sannyasa. The Sannyasis are always engaged in contemplation. They would not stay in one place for more than five nights but can live in a place in special circumstances such as in the case of chaturmasya etc. In the first stage they would ask alms from the house of Brahmin. None but Brahmin can accept this stage."</font color> According to Bhaktivinoda, the ascetic sannyasi is not supposed to stay in one place for more than five nights (that is, they are not supposed to build ashrams for themselves etc.). A person who is "given to meditation" is eligible for sannyasa. He does not particularly present the sannyasi as a preacher. Moreover, he states that none but brahmins can accept the stage of sannyasa. Not much beyond this is discussed about the sannyasa-ashrama in this section of the Caitanya Siksamritam. Nothing to the extent of the modern-day version of sannyasa in the Gaudiya Math. As for the idea of varna based on qualification, this is of course drawn from the Gita itself. Guna and janma are very much inter-related though, as we see in the following passage (Caitanya Siksamritam, 2.1): <font color="darkblue">"It is expected that the offspring of a man of the shudra nature will have the shudra nature, and that a man of the brahmana natura will get children of the same nature. But there is no certainty thereabout. Accordingly the makers of shastras made rules for purificatory rites in order to adjust the varna after ascertaining the nature."</font color> In other words, exceptions do exist, though generally guna and karma are based on janma. Let us not make exceptions into a rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted October 10, 2002 Report Share Posted October 10, 2002 Interesting. I remember reading Nitai the skeptik saying some place that the great debate with the Smarta pandits never happened at all. Does your writer Kanan Bihari Goswami have anything to say about Srila Saraswati Thakur in regard to that great debate at Midnapore? I haven't read the full history of the Baghna Pada Gosvamis. The information I have comes from an article by Jagadananda Das about the relationship between Bhaktivinoda and Vipin Vihari Gosvami. I do not think anyone contests the fact that the meeting took place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonehearted Posted October 10, 2002 Report Share Posted October 10, 2002 . . . but a reminder is always helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muralidhar Posted October 10, 2002 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2002 Madhava, Thanks for the info and the link to the article. In regard to varnashram, might I just mention a tiny fact: If you go to Nabadwip and visit the place of bhajan of my Srila Sridhar Maharaj, you will see that on the front of the grand temple where the Deities are installed, the words "sarva dharman parityajya" etc.. are written on the temple. In the old days, before the Natya Mandir in front of the temple was built, what you used to see first of all when you approaced the temple was this verse. That is, when you arrived at the gate the first words you see are "sarva dharman parityajya". People by nature have a certain tendency to work as teacher, boss, businessman or labourer. But whatever your tendency, you should turn towards Bhagavan and render bhakti. That is the message of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, Srila Saraswati Thakur, Srila Sridhar Maharaj, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, etc.. Also, I just read the entire article by Jagat. Interesting. Jagat says: "Bipin Bihari Goswami... publicly renounced Bhaktivinoda Thakur as his disciple shortly before dying in 1919. The reason he gave for this drastic act was precisely for "preaching falsehoods" connected to the birthplace of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. " Reading Jagat's criticims of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, I am reminded of Srila Sanatan Goswami's work "Brhad Bhagavatamrtam", which is in a similar genre to the supposedly counterfeit books of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur. Indeed, the Bhagavat itself is considered by some persons to have been written down in the seventh century. Should we also reject the Bhagavata as a counterfeit work? Mahaprabhu saw it as inspirational, and we see the work of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur as inspirational. More will need to be discussed in regard to this issue, but later.... Murali Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 People by nature have a certain tendency to work as teacher, boss, businessman or labourer. But whatever your tendency, you should turn towards Bhagavan and render bhakti. That is the message of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, Srila Saraswati Thakur, Srila Sridhar Maharaj, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, etc.. Agreed. Why, then, are all men initiated as brahmins at the time of Vaishnava diksa in your lineage? Reading Jagat's criticims of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, I am reminded of Srila Sanatan Goswami's work "Brhad Bhagavatamrtam", which is in a similar genre to the supposedly counterfeit books of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur. I believe Sanatan never attributed his Brihad Bhagavatamritam to other, older authors. There is no restriction over composing narratives like that. Indeed, the Bhagavat itself is considered by some persons to have been written down in the seventh century. Should we also reject the Bhagavata as a counterfeit work? Is it anywhere stated that the Bhagavata in its current form was composed by Vyasa? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 Agreed. Why, then, are all men initiated as brahmins at the time of Vaishnava diksa in your lineage? They aren't. Vaishnava Diksha entails the performance of five samskaras, beginning with tapa, pundra, nama, etc. In traditional times, this often included giving a shalagram to the disciple for worship, which would require one to be brahminically situated. But this is not a requirement, as one may be given the form of the Lord to worship in its place. Is it anywhere stated that the Bhagavata in its current form was composed by Vyasa? Where do you want a reference from? Within Bhagavatam? From other Puranas? From the Goswami's writing? From modern historians? I'm not sure what you are looking for. How do you define the Bhagavatam's "current form". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 In reply to: Agreed. Why, then, are all men initiated as brahmins at the time of Vaishnava diksa in your lineage? <hr> They aren't. Vaishnava Diksha entails the performance of five samskaras, beginning with tapa, pundra, nama, etc. In traditional times, this often included giving a shalagram to the disciple for worship, which would require one to be brahminically situated. But this is not a requirement, as one may be given the form of the Lord to worship in its place. Then why are upavita and Brahma Gayatri given? In reply to: Is it anywhere stated that the Bhagavata in its current form was composed by Vyasa? <hr> Where do you want a reference from? Within Bhagavatam? From other Puranas? From the Goswami's writing? From modern historians? I'm not sure what you are looking for. How do you define the Bhagavatam's "current form". Anywhere. Just curious. I do know some references though, from Matsya Purana, Garuda Purana and so. I hold no opinion over the subject matter. Current form means the present form in 18000 verses when divided to anustup meter. The Bhagavat itself describes Vyasa's writing the Bhagavat, Suka's speaking it to Suta and others, and Suta's speaking it to the sages of Naimisaranya. From the narrative itself it appears that its final form was established after Vyasa's initial delivery of the Bhagavata. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muralidhar Posted October 11, 2002 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 In regard to Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati initiating disciples with the Brahma-gayatri and Kamagayatri etc.. Sri Varadayatirajajeer, the present Jeer (Guru) at Sri Perembudur, the birthplace of Sri Ramanujacharya, has initiated Australian and South African-born men with Vishnu mantras and with brahma-gayatri and the sacred thread. I intend to ask the Acharya of the Sri Sampradaya here in Sydney, Sri Rami Sivan, if he could provide me with the scriptural references for this. My understanding is that traditionally, within the Tenkalais sect of the Sri Sampradaya, men have been initiated with the sacred thread and with Gayatri, even if they were born in families other than families of the brahmin caste. I was told this by Vaikunthanath Ramanujacharya, a disciple of Sri Varadayatirajajeer, but I intend to check if this information he gave me is correct. Interestingly, the family name of Vaikunthanath Ramanujacharya before he was initiated was Al'Haji but now he has changed his name. His father's family were Muslims from Morrocco. I was told that when Sri Rami Sivan was recommended to receive the status of Acharya within the Srisampradaya, several other Jeers examined Sri Rami Sivan (who was born in a Jewish family in South Africa) to make sure he was properly qualified to be placed in this very responsible role of Acharya. Nowadays, Sri Rami Sivan travels extensively and preaches the gospel of Sri Ramanujacharya. He sometimes lectures about Srivaishnavism in Universities in the USA, Singapore and other places. In an article by Jagat he suggests that within orthodox Hindu society in India it is not seen that persons of lower caste will be initiated as brahmins. But in the society of the Srivaishnavas of the South.... Initiation with Gayatri and sacred thread is conducted so the devotee can engage in the full process of Archana, Deity worship. Sri Rami Sivan is a master pujari and purohit. He routinely performs investiture with sacred thread for boys of the brahmin caste here in Sydney. He also initiates western born men with Gayatri and various Vishnu mantras. Initiation with Vishnu mantra is a part of sadhana, a requirement for Srivaishnavas who wish to engage in strict processes of Deity worship. In the Srisampradaya great emphasis is placed on Archana, and if a devotee wants to render proper service it is required that he will receive appropriate initiation. Of course, you must be sincere. I think you must be very sincere. Because when you receive initiation you must undergo a branding ceremony where you are burned on the shoulders with red-hot branding irons that have symbols of the chakra and the conch. Prabhupada Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami accepted sannyasa after visiting South India and consulting with Jeers (Gurus) of the Srisampradaya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muralidhar Posted October 11, 2002 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 Madhava: In regard to the fact that Bipin Bihari published an article in 1919 declaring that he had rejected Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur as his disciple, what then is the status within the Gaudiya Sampradya of Lalit Prashad? How do the followers of Lalit Prashad reconcile this fact? Did Lalit Prashad reject Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur's instruction that Mayapura is the birthplace of Mahaprabhu? If so, how can Lalit Prashad and his disciples claim to be true followers of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur? If Lalit Prashad's connection to the Gaudiya Sampradaya throgh Bhaktivinode Thakur is broken, then wouldn't this automatically mean Lalit Prashad was also ousted from the Sampradaya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 Ramanuja himself performed initiation to non-caste communities in Melkote while he was in hiding in the forest. The natives of Melkote were tribals, but through pancha-samskara initiation he brought them to the position of brahmanas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 I do know some references though, from Matsya Purana, Garuda Purana and so. I hold no opinion over the subject matter. Current form means the present form in 18000 verses when divided to anustup meter. All of such references in other Puranas refer to the number of verses in the Bhagavatam as being 18,000 and the author as being Vyasa. One could speculate and say it is a general statement, that the main body of Bhagavatam (not the invocation verses) is by Vyasa; but there isn't any statement as such, so it would remain just as speculation. There are plenty of verses that say the Bhagavatam was written by Vyasa, and no verses that say it wasn't written by Vyasa. So the conlusion should be simple enough. As far as finer details, Vyasa had disciples whom he put in charge of sub-dividing and expanding his writings. They extracted the Upakyhanas and Upapuranas from the main Puranas. In addition to this it was their duty to propagate these books. There is the possibility that they wrote the invocations, but this is unlikely as there is no reference to this. The invocational verses of the Bhagavatam are some of the most important verses in all the scriptures. Would they have been written by someone other than Vyasa? It is possible, but unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muralidhar Posted October 11, 2002 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 JNDas said: Ramanuja himself performed initiation to non-caste communities in Melkote while he was in hiding in the forest. The natives of Melkote were tribals, but through pancha-samskara initiation he brought them to the position of brahmanas. <hr> Personally speaking, I am not even trying to attain gopi-bhava, though my own Guru Maharaj has always instructed me that this type of devotion is the highest. But if I had the chance to go and serve the lotus feet of Sri Ramanujacharya for one million births I would feel my dreams were all fulfilled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muralidhar Posted October 11, 2002 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 Dear JNDas Prabhu, do you know of any refences, especially web sites where information is posted detailing the pastimes of Sri Ramanujacharya at Melkote. I am in the process of collecting various documents in order to explain the concept of Sampradaya and Parampara as explained by Srila Saraswati Thakur Prabhupada. thanks, Murali Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted October 12, 2002 Report Share Posted October 12, 2002 I'm not sure of any websites that will provide this information. I can refer you to books where this is recorded, but most of them will be in sanskrit or tamil. We are currently working on a website that will contain all of the writings of Sri Krishnaswamy Iyengar on the Sri Vaishnava philosophy. For those that are not aware of this great devotee and acharya, he has written and published hundreds of books on the teachings of Ramanuja in the English language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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