Evil Manu, the destroyer of Hinduism....a lovely article

[karthik_v]

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/oct/11akd.htm

 

That was a provocative title, though that issue constitutes only a small part of the article per se. Nevertheless, the article has raised 2 valid points:

 

One, we should banish Manu from the public.

Two, it is time we re-wrote Ramayana.

[Guest guest]

Bhaktajoy here.

 

Karthik Prabhuji good article.

 

I see only suffering.When will their ignorance go away?

We are assured everything will work itself out in time.We are the instruments.We have work to do for Krishna.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Did the article change? I didn't see anything about Manu's writings in there. Just someone complaining about having a statue of Manu in front of a couthouse.

 

Some consider Manu evil, but the Bhagavatam and the Rig Veda glorify him. The Bhagavatam states he is one of the twleve mahajanas, great souls who are knowledgeable about the path of bhakti. Those who are intelligent are advised to follow the path of these mahajanas to advance in spiritual life.

 

Further more, Manu is an empowered incarnation of the Lord, and is the father of mankind. One who follows Manu's rules is known as a manushya, others who disregard them are known as pashus.

 

[Guest guest]

Bhaktajoy here.

 

Right JnDas Prabhuji.

I didn't read the whole article.I am just concerned.Due to ignorance they are suffering a lot.In kali yuga bona fide spiritual masters are no more to find.

 

What Manu really meant we should know from great acaryas like Prabhupada,etc.

[Raguraman]

"Nevertheless, the article has raised 2 valid points:

 

One, we should banish Manu from the public.

Two, it is time we re-wrote Ramayana."

 

Rewrite Ramayana ??? U R mad. It is not something to change according to your wishes or anybody else's.

 

The only valid point is that conversion does not help the situation dalits are in. As you see that the problem is not due to Brahmins only.

 

The only solution is educating the masses on the true meaning of scriptures. Scriptures become dead wood if the ultimate goal is missed.

 

The real issue is conversion by showing food and money to these poor people. It is like tying a carrot in front of the donkey. The donkey never gets the object of desire. One Madurai bishop even threatens to close educational institutions. If social service be their real motive why punish those poor people by closing such institutions. Again these Christians are using dalits as a lever only just like high caste Hindus.

 

Finally the only valid point I find is that certain tribes are being exploited even by non-Brahmins. Strict rules have to be enforced by government to punish people engaging in such activities. This is the only solution. As far as the ordinance regarding conversion, I support it 100%. This will avoid exploitation of a certain group of people as long as the authorities act justly. I do not see authorities blocking or stopping anybody if you or I or anybody wants to read Bible or Quran or Vedas or if anybody wants to go to temples or churches or mosques.

[karthik_v]

Dear Raguraman,

 

I am as much against conversion as you are. I am all for banning every form of conversion. I would also like to see every organized form of religion, especially the sectarian kind, banned. Such a list would include all the churches and all the Islamic organizations. Perhaps, even ISKCON, though lower down the order. To me a sectarian organization is one which claims that only its path is correct and every other path is either incomplete or down right wrong. Such intolerance to pluralism is what has always led to the most inhuman kind of violence as can be learnt from the history of Christianity and Islam. I am also against any kind of organized religion which works with a mandate to bring more and more followers into its fold. It is against the spirit of Sanatana dharma. It all ends in commerce. Spiritualism should be an individual pursuit, free of dogma and without ever being intrusive or aggressive.

 

But, I don't believe that banning conversions alone would make India or the lives of majority of the Hindus terrific. The simple fact is, whether you agree or not, that the Harijans have been meted out the worst treatment by our people. The religious leaders, and that list includes acaryas too, have rarely stood up against such a blatant injustice. More often than not, they have been supporting that, directly or indirectly. Let us just take Gaudiya Vaishnavas and ISKCON for example. Sure we have temples all over the world, but do we have them in the tribal areas in India? Did we not simply ignore them? We have to be proactive as for as they are concerned. Otherwise, we have no right to ban conversions.

 

I would be writing tomorrow, in answer to another member's question, as to why Manusmriti is bogus. What we have today should rightly be called Aurangazeb-Jones smriti. It treats the Harijans, Shudras and women as dirt. I feel very sad when an acarya like Srila Prabhupad goes around touting it as THE DIVINE LAW.

 

 

Rewrite Ramayana ??? U R mad. It is not something to change according to your wishes or anybody else's.

 

 

FYKI, Valmiki Ramayana has many recensions - having verses ranging from 24,000 to 48,000. So, it has been re-written many times over. Why are you singularly agitated when I say that it should be re-written omitting the terrible parts such as Uttara kanda, which is wholesale interpolation? What is wrong in retaining the core of Ramayana while leaving out atrocious interpolations like Rama banishing Sita to forest, long after coronation? You have no problem when so much interpolation has gone into the works of Valmiki, but you are agitated when I demand that they be cleansed.

 

 

The only valid point is that conversion does not help the situation dalits are in. As you see that the problem is not due to Brahmins only.

 

 

I never said that it is due to Brahmins alone. It is due to all and above all due to the system. It is due to invasions.

 

 

The only solution is educating the masses on the true meaning of scriptures. Scriptures become dead wood if the ultimate goal is missed.

 

 

Above all, identifying what our true scriptures are and identifying the interpolations. And to always bear in mind that scriptures are at best a guide - and that too only in spiritual matters. They are never there to dictate our social mores and laws, as in the semitic religions. Our laws and customes have always changed and will change. Scriptures should have no place, whatsoever, in that.

 

 

If social service be their real motive why punish those poor people by closing such institutions.

 

 

I never believed that the Christians are into any social service. Only ISKCON people have been glorifying the likes of Teresa. Not me.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Sure we have temples all over the world, but do we have them in the tribal areas in India?

 

 

ISKCON has many temples in tribal areas. The question is have you gone there?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

For example, in Orissa, ISKCON has hundreds of nama-hatta temples throughout the villages and tribal areas. You are probably unaware that they exist because they are never listed in a "list of ISKCON temples". One reason is there are no addresses in these areas. Another reason, is no one will ever come out there.

 

Many of these temples are organized and ran by tribal devotees. They are very poor, so some are very small, just a few families congregating together to worship. Some others are quite big with hundreds of families meeting together, though they are also very poor. These temples may not be impressive to look at, just a mud or brick building, but the devotion of the devotees attending is impressive to see.

 

[karthik_v]

 

For example, in Orissa, ISKCON has hundreds of nama-hatta temples throughout the villages and tribal areas. You are probably unaware that they exist because they are never listed in a "list of ISKCON temples". One reason is there are no addresses in these areas. Another reason, is no one will ever come out there.

 

 

Perhaps, you are right. They are not listed in ISKCON's list. Nor have I ever heard of a jet-set sannyasi visiting them. Yet, my question is: Are these ISKCON temples? The worship of Jagannath has been there in Orissa for ages and I wouldn't be surprised to see a Oriya tribal or villager worshipping the Lord in his dilapidated hut. Have those been set up by ISKCON? For example, can ISKCON take the credit for the selfless service that J N Das renders in rural Orissa?

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

Dear Karthik,

 

What part of any scripture is true or not is debatable. But changing any scripture is downright foolish. These are also indicators of history(purely academic sense). Ofcourse I will agree with you on one part that in spiritual pursuits one should neglect parts that are not complying with the ultimate goal of vedas.

[karthik_v]

Hari Bol Dear Raguraman,

 

 

What part of any scripture is true or not is debatable.

 

 

That is true, but the very fact that there are several recensions, often contradicting the vedas, shows that there has been interpolation. So, when somebody makes such an interpolated text as THE AUTHORITY, we should not accept it - more so, when it contains several inhuman things.

 

 

But changing any scripture is downright foolish.

 

 

OK, let me clarify here. No matter who attempts to change, the existing recensions won't go away. I am not for burning them either. But, there must be a critical approach towards everything, including spiritualism. When we work towards producing a critical edition, people can see that many of the inhuman things found in these smritis [which have been justified by acaryas for their own selfish gains] are NO AUTHORITY.

 

My prime objection is to the attempts at making an evidently interpolated text as THE AUTHORITY. In the long run, such acts destroy our religion and our society. It is foolish to follow any guru blindly or to claim that he is perfect. Nobody is perfect. Such a belief only leads to dogma and exploitation.

 

Read the thread "Q to Karthik".

[Guest guest]

Hindhism is under a similar spell as all the others, they fail to read where the living currant of God is flowing in the present.

Just as some Jewish practitioners may still follow the letter of Moses and Abraham as their father Acharya disregarding the higher refined synthesis and truths that Jesus came to give. Likewise the Christians fall into the same trap of thinking they have divinity in the palm of their hand, not recognizing anything outside the parametres of their own teachings.

So to those who get locked into fixed law that was written for specific times and circumstances in Bharat instead of recognizing the reforms and adjustment of the avataras like Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, they will surely miss the message and benefit of these enlivened personalities in the dynamic present, which is where we should be focussed.

It doesn't mean we disregard the previous contributions, they are only steps to a higher platform that should ultimately lead to complete accomodation of all. Unfortunately all religions are getting hung up in this sectarian bind through of the other religions conquering them and hijacking their faith. Instead of hearing that eternal instruction in the Gita:

Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja

aham tvam sarva-papebebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah

 

At all times we must be vigilant to try and see divinity everywhere especially in His concentrated form.

Not lazily rest on the laurals of our previous realizations, rather our thirst to dive deeper and deeper into the fathomless ocean of His ways should always be present. At the same time not be deluded by false prophets in religious cloaks trying to establish new dogma.

In a sense it's a great boon to have so much access to the this abundant knowledge of the cyber dimention, but only if we can extract the essence and in turn if it can be practicly applied so as to flow down to those stuck suffering in the dark recesses of ignorance and misfortune.

Relatively, I suppose you could say it is like we are in the positions of demi-gods communicating from safe havens with so many across the face of the planet, in comparison to the hopeless limited predicaments many of the third world countries are in, although they are not without access to God, still the Krsna conception is lacking in it's spread to a great degree, so there is so much more work for all of us to do, if we feel this path has the answers.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Nor have I ever heard of a jet-set sannyasi visiting them.

 

 

That would be because you have never heard of these places in the first place. This is just an illogical and cheap remark. Many sannyasis visit these temples to inspire and guide the devotees in these regions.

 

 

Yet, my question is: Are these ISKCON temples?

 

 

Yes they are.

 

 

The worship of Jagannath has been there in Orissa for ages and I wouldn't be surprised to see a Oriya tribal or villager worshipping the Lord in his dilapidated hut.

 

 

I'm not refering to that. I am refering to ISKCON temples, with devotees initiated by ISKCON gurus.

 

 

Have those been set up by ISKCON?

 

 

Yes.

 

Besides Orissa, I know similar temples exist in Bengal and Bangaladesh. They may exist in other states, but I am not aware of them. In South they do not exist in this same manner.

 

 

For example, can ISKCON take the credit for the selfless service that J N Das renders in rural Orissa?

 

 

That is another topic, since the temples I am speaking about are actually directly ISKCON temples. But I would be happy if ISKCON took credit for our work in Orissa, but they don't. It seems they don't even take credit for the temples they themselves have established in these regions. 99% of the devotees in ISKCON dont even know such temples exist. They aren't being opened for publicity or to get a good name. They are being opened to provide rural devotees with oportunities to associate with one another and serve Lord Krishna through Srila Prabhupada's mission.

[Avinash]

When Ramayana is to be rewritten, what changes should be made in current Ramayana and why should those changes be made?

[karthik_v]

J N Das Prabhuji,

 

If those temples in interior Orissa are run by ISKCON, then I take back my remarks and apologize for the same. This news really delights me. The real custodians of religion and culture have been the poor and the unassuming people who live almost unnoticed in remote places. Only those organizations that cater to their spiritual needs, are bonafide organizations.

 

My remark on jet-set sannyasis comes out of my observation - I have seen sannyasis exhibiting preference to stay in the luxurious homes of their rich disciples [while refusing to stay in the temple, which doesn't have all those conforts]. I have seen sannyasis who openly grumble that the devotees didn't donate enough to them. I have seen sannyasis who lie outright. Yet, I must admit that every sannyasi can't be the same and there must be some genuine ones too, albeit fewer in number. Still, the very fact that such sannyasis exist [and who would cater to the spiritual needs of Oriya adivasis and not only the rich Indians in Silicon Valley or Redmond] delights me.

 

Avinashji,

 

The first step should be to draft a Ramayana sans Uttara kanda, which was never written by Valmiki. It was never translated by Kambar into Tamil [9th century CE] and even Tulsidass into Avadhi Hindustani [end 16th century CE]. It doesn't find a mention in the Pazhaya Ramayanam, which was written during Tamil Sangam days [2000 years ago]. I have written on this in detail once before. It is unthinkable that either Kambar or Tulsidass will ignore an entire canto in their translation. It simply means that it didn't exist during their times.

 

Well, actually it existed during their times [to be precise after the time of Kambar but before the time of Tulsidass], but its existence was confined only to the northwestern parts of India - to be precise Afghanistan's Muslim courts. There is only one document that talks about Rama slaying a Sudra for reciting the vedas. That document is the travelogue of Al Beruni [11th century CE]. He wrote that part while he was imprisoned with a few Hindu Brahmin scholars. So, it is apparent that they had concocted that story.

 

This gives rise to 2 possibilities - one, the existence of Uttara Kanda was entirely confined to the courts of Mahmud Ghaznavi then and only later found its way into Ramayana or two, Tulsidass recognized it as an interpolation and didn't include it [Kambar lived before Mahmud Ghaznavi and there was no Uttara Kanda when he lived].

 

Today, this canto is included in almost all the editions of Ramayana, but the critical editions atleast mention that this is interpolation. Sadly, the acaryas of the recent times never bother to make this distinction. I believe that the audience is entitled to hear that Ramayana has several interpolations and the abusive parts are later day interpolations. When acaryas propagate these myths [that too myths generated in the Islamic courts], they will lose all credibility in this information age. Many academics have been carrying out a lot of critical research and it is only a matter of time before the common man comes to know the truth. If our acaryas are concerned about Hinduism and don't want it to meet the same plight as Christianity, they should desist from portraying interpolations as THE TRUTH. At the bare minimum, they should not portray Uttara Kanda and Manusmriti as bona fide scriptures.

 

If we agree with that starting point, then we can go further into the discussion on which other parts of Ramayana must be left out.

[karthik_v]

I can never understand as to how Srila Prabhupad can consider Manusmriti as bonafide. I mean the current version of Manusmriti [rather the Islamic-Jones smriti, to be accurate]. This work says that the tongue of a Shudra must be cut off, if it could be proven that he recited the vedas. Yet, SP himself quotes from the vedas and vedanta occasionally and his disciples and aspiring disciples, most of whom would be Shudras or even mlecchas as per Manusmriti [iJ smriti], repeat them and recite them. Is that not a violation of Manusmriti [iJ smriti]?

 

Either the sage Badarayana who says that anyone, including the Shudras can recite the vedas and even perform all those rituals is right or the current version of Manusmriti [iJ smriti] is right. Nobody can argue that both are right.

[Guest guest]

joy here.

 

Krathik Prabhuji,

God or Krsna conciousness is transcedental and mundane designation like brahmin or shudra does not apply.

 

Vedas say after touching cow dung you have to take bath to purify but the injuction is cow dung is pure and has many medical qualities.I remember Prabhupada once said he did not care.He simply accepted things and did not bother.He also said take the essence.Krsna conciousness attracts all.

[karthik_v]

Dear Bhaktajoy Prabhuji,

 

 

Vedas say after touching cow dung you have to take bath to purify but the injuction is cow dung is pure and has many medical qualities.

 

 

Where do the vedas say so? Can you please quote the verse? Thanks.

[karthik_v]

Dear Bhaktajoy prabhuji,

 

 

God or Krsna conciousness is transcedental and mundane designation like brahmin or shudra does not apply.

 

 

I would entirely agree with this. I have heard of an argument that Caitanya Mahaprabhu attached little importance to Varnasrama dharma [or even outright rejected it] and that it was only Bhakti Vinoda Thakur who revived it [along with the practice of a sannyasi wearing the sacred thread - which wasn't the custom earlier]. I don't know if that is true. Perhaps, some knowledgeable person can clarify.

[xxvvii]

I have noticed that "Brahmin Raj" occurs only in title & last sentence. Now dear Divanji, who do "Brahmin Raj" & "Manu" refer to?

 

"these were Manu (not Manu of ManuSmriti), Maya, Twastha, Shilpi, and Vishwajna."

 

Throughout the article, Divanji expressed his anxiety with numerous "convert/sion"s. Don't worry! Fine for ever & ever is everything in charge of the Most High.

 

 

(I am not against Brahmins per se, but against the upper caste prejudices that perpetuate caste and casteism)

 

 

Dear re-writer, please look at the re-written text: (I am not against caste and casteism, but against the upper caste's prejudice)

 

 

To end conversions, one has to end casteism and all caste consciousness. Why can't a Hindu simply be referred to as a Hindu? Why do we need to mention the caste? The Ramayana and Mahabharata are replete with mention of caste, especially while referring to the Brahmin and Kshatriya castes. This exists even in modern times. So many of our stories written in the 19th and 20th century use the sentence: "He was a poor, Brahmin boy," or, "He came from a Brahmin family", even if the reference to caste has little meaning to the story. Whatever for? Can't we have new versions of the Ramayana and Mahabharata that simply do not mention caste, which, anyway, is profession derived, so how can you be born into a caste?

 

 

These words are rather harmful. The main body of your culture is aryan-derived, so Mbh. & Rm. are two of its columns. And there would be no new versions of them but the collapse of your culture, social, & even your nation.

 

 

But then, all this only reflects the dominance of the so-called upper castes, and their unwillingness to throw off the yoke of casteism that has given a small minority such awesome and cruel power over a vast majority of the less fortunate. And now the same upper caste Hindus do not even want the Dalits to have the right to convert? Not unless the upper-caste dominated bureaucracy clears it? Whatever happened to fundamental freedom? And what next?

 

In the ages to come, future generations may well view the present political, social, economic structure as the continuation of minority rule over Indians, a minority rule that began with the creation of casteism,

 

 

No problem. No one is willing to give up the yoke of casteism that has given One ultimate minority ruling over Indians:

 

"rulers will fear ordinary people [democracy]"

 

Nevertheless, this article is worth reading for members of today's upper castes.

--------------

Reference texts from Origin of Vedas & Knowledge of Time

[karthik_v]

Dear xxvvii,

 

 

The main body of your culture is aryan-derived, so Mbh. & Rm. are two of its columns. And there would be no new versions of them but the collapse of your culture, social, & even your nation.

 

 

Are you hinting that Aryan was/is a race? FYKI, not one ancient text refers to any Aryan race. Arya meant "the noble one". I am very curious to know why our society or nation would collapse if Ramayana is re-written. Did it collapse on the numerous occasions when they were interpolated? If not, is there a compelling reason to assume that a collapse would occur in today's context?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

It was only a matter of time before someone demanded politically correct religious texts. They will probably want to rewrite them every 15 years or so to keep up with whats right and wrong.

 

The Puranas and Itihasas themselves state that there are different versions of each text containing different numbers of verses (for different classes of people). Multiple versions is not proof of interpolation. These are aural traditions that have been put into writing only recently (in the last few thousand years). There are multpile lines of tradition, which have preserved the texts in the form they have received it.

 

A spiritual book receives its value on the basis of the author. Because these texts are divinely revealed, they are worshipped and followed. That is of course a matter of faith. Those who do not consider these texts divinely revealed will not find much use for them.

 

What will be the value of a rewritten spiritual text? Nothing. It will have no value to the religious, as it is not divinely inspired. It will have no value to the atheist, as it is not even a historical document, it is just a modern fiction novel.

 

Spiritual books only have their value because of belief that they were divinely inspired. Take for example the book of Mormon. It is a recent addition to the bible. It only has value among the Mormon community because they believe it was divinely inspired. Other Christians couldnt care less about it.

 

When you choose to rewrite a spiritual text for political correctness, you are creating a text that has no authority, and thus it will have no following. It will be useless.

 

If you actually think the present Ramayana is not good, then write your own. See how many people read it, follow it, and worship it.

 

You speak against conversions, yet you want to force all Hindus to convert to your brand of Hinduism, a rewritten Ramayana, etc. You even spoke before of banning religions that convert people. What would you require their followers do? Convert to your beliefs? You are holding on to a hypocritical position. While pretending to be promoting freedom of religion you are actually standing for religious fanaticism. Only your way is the right way and all others should be banned and forced to convert. You may avoid using those words, but the conclusion is obvious.

 

[shvu]

 

 

Either the sage Badarayana who says that anyone, including the Shudras can recite the vedas and even perform all those rituals is right or the current version of Manusmriti [iJ smriti] is right. Nobody can argue that both are right.

 

 

Can I get a reference to the Suutra where Baadaraayana allows Shuudras to recite vedas?

 

Shankara does not interpret any Suutra to mean Shuudras can recite vedas. Au contraire, he specifically says Shuudras *cannot* do so. This does not however mean that Shuudras are denied the possibility of liberation. All Acharyas, who have commented on the BG, have stated that Bhakti is available to all Varnaas.

 

Thanks