karma @ the root...

[vsdprasad]

when the living entities first appeared in the material world, the karma balance in their account shud have been zero. Over a period of time, they all have acquired good/bad karma. But any action is based on previous karma and karma is based on the action performed. So it appears that the karma account is not zero @ the root.

Any elaborations on this paradox??

 

-Prasad.

[ethos]

Wow, interesting. I really don't know.

 

But I recall somewheres that the living entities are all given the chance to begin as Brahma. Some are Good Brahmas (like ours in this universe) and some are bad. Is this true anyone?

 

Puzzling question though. Actually, couldn't you trace karma back to the spiritual world as "that one wrong decision" ? There's no karma as long as we're dovetailed with the Absolute; when we decide against that harmony our karma begins. And we begin by coming here. We always have the independence to decide.

 

That first placement in the material world could simply come as a result of what they think our due is. Seems to me it would philosophically have to be some "anatomically correct" human form or something and that we should all start as equals. Thank Sadaputa for that "anatomically correct" phrase.

 

I look forward to the many intelligent responses on this one.

[theist]

vsdprasad said:"But any action is based on previous karma and karma is based on the action performed."

 

Why would our first falling into the material experience have anything to do with past deeds?The soul is dynamic and active apart from the interactions of the three modes.What is the place of our will in this equation?

[raga]

 

when the living entities first appeared in the material world, the karma balance in their account shud have been zero. Over a period of time, they all have acquired good/bad karma. But any action is based on previous karma and karma is based on the action performed. So it appears that the karma account is not zero @ the root.

Any elaborations on this paradox??

VedAnta SUtra 2.1.35 states:

 

<font color="darkblue">na karmAvibhAgAd iti cen nAnAditvAt

 

“If someone says that the theory of karma cannot explain the inequality seen in the world, arguing that everyone had the same karma at the beginning of creation, this is not true because karma is beginningless.”</font color>

 

Baladeva VidyAbhuSaNa comments on this sUtra:

 

<font color="darkblue">karmaNaH kSetrajJAnAM ca brahmavad anAditva- svIkArAt. pUrva-pUrva-karmAnusareNottarottarakarmaNi pravarttanAt na kiJcid dUSaNam smRtiz ca:

 

puNya-pApAdikaM viSNu karyet pUrvakarmaNA

anAditvAt karmaNaz ca na virodhaH kathaJcana

 

karmaNo’nAditvenAnAvasthA tu na doSaH prAmANikatvAt.

 

“VyAsa has accepted that karma and the jIvas are beginningless, just like Brahman. Thus there is no fault, because subsequent karma is inspired by the past karma. The SmRti confirms this:

 

‘Lord ViSNu makes the living entities do good or bad acts according to their past karma. There is no contradiction in this because karma has no beginning.’

 

If someone objects, that if karma is beginningless, then it has the defect of infinite regress, we say that is not so, because the scriptures say so.”</font color>

[raga]

 

Why would our first falling into the material experience have anything to do with past deeds?The soul is dynamic and active apart from the interactions of the three modes.What is the place of our will in this equation?

 

 

Bhagavad-gita (7.27) states:

 

<font color="darkblue">icchA-dveSa-samutthena dvandva-mohena bhArata

sarva-bhUtAni sammohaM sarge yAnti parantapa

 

“O descendant of Bharata, O conqueror of enemies, all living entities are born into delusion, bewildered by the duality of desire and hatred.”</font color>

 

In his commentary, Visvanatha points out how desire and hatred arise from the karma from the previous creation:

 

<font color="darkblue">tvan-mAyayA jIvAH kadArbhya muhyantItyapekSAyam AhH iccheti. sarge jagat-sRSTyArmbhakAle sarvva-bhUtAni sarve jIvAH sammohayanti, kena? PrAcIna- kamodbuddhau yavicchAdveSau.

 

“If someone asks, ‘Since when are the jIvas bewildered by Your mAyA’, the Lord speaks the current verse. At the beginning of the creation all jIvas become bewildered. By what? By the desire and hatred which springs from the karma performed in the past.”</font color>

 

You can find these and many more useful references in here.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Our mere desire to enjoy separately from the Lord is the subtle root of all our karmic experiences. That desire resulted us being placed in a suitable environment where action and reaction is constantly occuring, eventually snow-balling into our unlimited sinful reactions.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Those verses refer to the beginning of one's karma after universal disolution and re-creation. That doesn't identify the source of one's being situated within the purview of karma.

 

[syama]

If I slap your face then it was your karma to recieve that slap so where is the question of freewill on my part? it seems like it was pre-ordained in which case how am I responsible & why should I recieve a reaction for something which was inevitable?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

It may have been the persons karma to receive the slap, but your action was not based on karma, it was based on free will to act. Whether you slap him or not, someone will slap him. But you made the choice to slap him, thereby creating karmic reactions for yourself.

 

[theist]

I'm convinced that we(the conditioned)are so bewildered that we don't even know the nature of our own desires.

 

At some level you wanted to slap somebody.Supersoul accomodated that desire.The chump that you slapped had it coming to teach him a lesson.It wasn't long ago that he desired to slap someone and Supersoul led him to another chump that had it coming for slapping someone, and on and on ad infinitum.

 

This web that we have become trapped in is so complicated and intricatly woven that the details are unknowable by us.It's astounding really.

[theist]

Raga,I was refering to our initial move into the process of cause and effect.That was simply a wrong choice on our part and not influenced by the reaction to some past deed.

[Guest guest]

 

The atma falls into the material realm due to the desire for

an independent existence,since this is impossible,

the jiva needs to become purified of that desire.

 

The jiva then can either quickly realize the error in

judgement or can become impertinent and digress furthur into the realm of Karmic reaction.

 

[vsdprasad]

thank you for all the intelligent replies.

jndas prabhu said: "Our mere desire to enjoy separately from the Lord is the subtle root of all our karmic experiences. That desire resulted us being placed in a suitable environment where action and reaction is constantly occuring, eventually snow-balling into our unlimited sinful reactions."

 

If the desire to enjoy separately from the lord is the subtle root, then it appears that there would have been some variations in the levels of these desires of individuals in the spiritual world before landing here. But what made those variations in the desire levels??. We are all now in digital era and I feel either there shud have been a desire (1) or no desire (0) !

Those who had desire have landed here and others are blissfully continuing there.

So my question is what made these variable levels of desires (and on what basis) which have given rise to varying karmas. Otherwise everyone would be maintaining the same balance in their karma account and there wouldn't be any differences in the sufferings/happiness of the individuals in this world.

 

The response also reminded me of one of my previous posts in a small thread: http://www.indiadivine.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=20469

 

I wasn't fully convinced with the replies in that thread. My specific question is: In the spiritual world, why didn't the lord use his powers to make the devotees have all desires except having a desire to enjoy separately. If this had happened, then everyone would've been blissful and the history of material suffering wouldn't have reached to this extent.

If there isn't any reason why the blissful individual souls in the spiritual world still had the desire to enjoy separately, then does it not appear that there is no guarantee that after going back to godhead, this desire still creeps in??

 

-Prasad.

[ethos]

Vsdprasad, the spiritual world is "basically" the same there as it is here. The existential context of our environment, paraphenalia and associates is the same there as it is here. The differences are in the jiva's sensitivity to our Lord Krsna (or one of His many expansions).

 

it appears that there would have been some variations in the levels of these desires of individuals in the spiritual world before landing here. But what made those variations in the desire levels?...

Yes, the particular circumstance based on our desire and actions towards the Lord––or maybe even one of His associates. Just as any crime here has particular circumstances surrounding motivation, so it is there.

 

In the spiritual world, why didn't the lord use his powers to make the devotees have all desires except having a desire to enjoy separately. If this had happened, then everyone would've been blissful and the history of material suffering wouldn't have reached to this extent.

Everything is perfect as it is. Maybe to have "all" His qualities––including the desire to Lord over material nature–– is necessary somehow to interact with him. Free will is required for love. It cannot be forced. There is meaning only in voluntary activity. Not much meaningful activity for the soldier to turn left, forward march and tent hut! Of course, the soldier is voluntarily surrendering the control of his actions. We would be little more than automatons without our free will or this quality for dissention.

 

Prabhupada said one always has the free will to decide. Souls can cycle between the spiritual and material worlds as often as they like. There are no guarantees! Our dynamic relationship with God is just like with anyone else: it flourishes or becomes stagnant in relation to our interaction with Him.

[Guest guest]

 

The choice is always yours,that is free will.

 

to try and understand the intracies of the original

cause of our entanglement in the material world,

highlightts the reason we are here.

 

the enlightened soul understands that the intricacies

of the subtle desire of the jiva for independence

is really only truely fully understood by God.

 

And the best course of action is to realize the futility of

of trying to examine something for which we have no

way of comprehending the nature of.

 

It's like trying to explain nuclear physics to a baby,we do not have the ability to comprehend the inner psyche

of the jiva in relation to eternal lila.

 

Our insistence in trying to gain mastery of this is a symptom of the disease,it serves no real purpose ,

except to spend our energy in gaining mastery over useless (to us)knowledge.

A knowledge that is incomprehensible to us due to our being the thing we are trying to psychoanylize.

 

the intelligent seeker accepts the fact that whatever the reason for our predicament,there is in fact a being in control over us.

 

And that fact is the important thing to realize,not trying

to deduce some intricate complexity of your psyche.

 

Life is meant to be lived in harmony with God,not trying to figure out why we are in disharmony.

 

It's like you are standing in the rain and asking why am I getting wet ?

 

The intelligent person doesn't waste energy on such foolishness,he simply gets out of the rain.

 

[ethos]

Shiva, the nature of this question is something that alot of people ask. I have asked it before in a different context. And it has great relevance to everyone.

 

It's true that we cannot possibly know of our own particular circumstances related to our original fall with the limitations of our material psyche. Still, I think it warrants a look.

 

This topic lies at the heart of our karmic journey and our purpose in life. I think you're being overintelligent to simply blow it off. It is natural for man to "want to know" and "seek the best." And theoretically, we can know the quality and purpose of everything––because we are parts of God. If we are spiritually motivated to find deeper meanings concerning reality it reaffirms and supports our faith.

 

And too, others may be satisfied where you are not. What can be the harm in this investigation?

[xxvvii]

 

when the living entities first appeared in the material world, the karma balance in their account shud have been zero. Over a period of time, they all have acquired good/bad karma. But any action is based on previous karma and karma is based on the action performed. So it appears that the karma account is not zero @ the root.

 

 

You simplified this q.. karman's feedback may be got from all kinds of sources, in which the judge is the final assurer of its amount, ie., the karmaphala's liquidator, at certain time. So your account will be greatly cut down then. (Refer to Quran or Bible.)

 

Any action is based on previous level of spiritual evolution & determined by current free will unless you are a robot in this life.

 

For more info. about karman, you can also find some buddhistic matters. About "spiritual evolution" & "material evolution" refer to the end part of enoch keys.