Caitanya's arguments against mayavada

[theist]

Thanks for the reply Guestji.Your points are heard and well taken.I have this habit of placing more import on the past and future while neglecting the present.

 

Hare Krsna

[shvu]

 

 

I understand that Krsna is saying that gyaanii is my own self. But, here the gyaan refers to knowledge about Krsna and his pastimes. Krsna does'nt like the dry knowledge. The use of knowledge is only helpful if it helps in devotion otherwise it is srama eva hi kevalam

 

 

Actually it is the other way around. Devotion leads to Jnaana which leads to Moksha. Check BG 18.54 and 18.55. The sequence is quite clear.

 

bhaktyaa maamabhijaanaati yaavaanyashchaasmi tattvataH |

tato maaM tattvato gyaatvaa vishate tadanantaraM ||

 

The verse in Bhagavatam is:

dharma svanusthita pumsam, visvaksena kathasu yah,

notpadayed yadi ratim, srama eva hi kevalam

 

"By exceuting dharma and developing gyaan, if we don't come to the point of listening to Krsna's pastimes and developing attachment to Him, then it's just hard labour and nothing else!!!

 

 

Correct. The Jnaana referred to here is basic, primary knowledge that one develops by executing dharma. As a consequence of his dharma, the individual evolves and realizes there is more than just material life. After which, the individual comes to the point of knowing about and appreciating the glory of Krishna. This will develop Bhakti in the individual and then BG 18.54 and 18.55 will happen in succession.

 

Sincere bhaktas are very dear to Krsna as he as said.

 

Tesam gyaani nityayukta, ekabhaktir vishishyate

priyo hi gyani atyarthamaham, sa ca mama priya.

 

Note that this gyani is also not the dry speculator, but the one with prema for Krsna. Please note ekabhaktir vishishyate.

 

 

A sincere Bhakta is the one who is eligible or ripe for receiving Jnaana [which he will] and such a Jnaani is dear to Krishna, as explained in this verse. Can you explain what you mean by "dry speculator"? I don't understand what that means.

 

Cheers

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Actually it is the other way around. Devotion leads to Jnaana which leads to Moksha.

 

 

Knowledge (jnanam) and detachment (vairagyam) are automatic byproducts of devotional service. One need not endeavor to attain them, as they automatically come to one who engages in bhakti:

 

vasudeve bhagavati

bhakti-yogah prayojitah

janayaty ashu vairagyam

jnanam ca yad ahaitukam

 

"By rendering devotional service unto the Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna, one immediately acquires causeless knowledge and detachment from the world."

 

One who has actually attained to the platform of knowledge will engage in devotional service:

 

tac chraddadhana munayo

jnana-vairagya-yuktaya

pashyanty atmani catmanam

bhaktya shruta-grihitaya

 

"The seriously inquisitive student or sage, well equipped with knowledge and detachment, realizes that Absolute Truth by rendering devotional service in terms of what he has heard from the Vedanta-sruti."

(from the Bhagavata)

 

As the Gita states, one who attains knowledge will surrender to the Lord through prapati. Such a great soul is very rare:

 

bahunam janmanam ante

jnanavan mam prapadyate

vasudevah sarvam iti

sa mahatma su-durlabhah

 

"After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare."

 

There is no other way to understand the Lord in truth except through devotional service. Others who avoid bhakti may think they understand the Lord (as maya rupa), but they fail to understand him in tattva. The Lord can only be realized when he reveals Himself to the devotee, otherwise He is inconceivable, beyond the perception of mundane faculties:

 

bhaktya mam abhijanati

yavan yas casmi tattvatah

tato mam tattvato jnatva

vishate tad-anantaram

 

"One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God."

[Guest guest]

both a bhakta and jnani will reach the lord. after long practice a jnani will develop bhakti and a bhakta will develop jnanam.

 

[Somesh Kumar]

Hare Krsna Shvu Prabhu ji,

 

 

Actually it is the other way around. Devotion leads to Jnaana which leads to Moksha. Check BG 18.54 and 18.55. The sequence is quite clear.

 

 

The devotion which you're talking about here is the Sadhana/vaidhi bhakti which is not spontaneous attraction for Krsna!

 

Also, If you take the 18.54 verse as it is then you'll understand that the person gets engaged in bhakti "mad bhakti labhate param" from the platform of Brahma jnana "brahma bhuta prasannatma".

 

And then bhakti is enabling him to know Sri Krsna, as He is which is (BG 18.55)!

 

But it can be the other way as well as in this verse:

 

Mam ca yo avyabhicarini, bhakti yogena sevate,

sa gunan samtityaitan, brahma bhuyaya kalpate

 

In this case bhakti is leading to brahma jnaana and then if you take the verse 18.54 again in the context of the verse which is stated above then we can come to the conclusion that bhakti(vaidhi/sadhana) can be employed as the means to attain Brahma jnaana which in turn again leads a person to more intense bhakti which is spontaneous attraction for Krsna (raganuga)!!!

 

 

Correct. The Jnaana referred to here is basic, primary knowledge that one develops by executing dharma. As a consequence of his dharma, the individual evolves and realizes there is more than just material life. After which, the individual comes to the point of knowing about and appreciating the glory of Krishna. This will develop Bhakti in the individual and then BG 18.54 and 18.55 will happen in succession.

 

 

Now we are coming in-sync! Jai Sri Krsna!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif It's nice to see that you're accepting the supremacy of Bhakti(spontaneous love for Krsna).

 

 

A sincere Bhakta is the one who is eligible or ripe for receiving Jnaana [which he will] and such a Jnaani is dear to Krishna, as explained in this verse.

 

 

Yeah, you're right. But this jnaana is about Krsna's pastimes ( because Krsna said in the verse tesam jnaani nityayukta <u>ekabhaktir vishishyate</u> )

 

janma karmam ca me divyam, evam yo vetti tattvatah,

tyaktva deham punar janmam, naiti mameti so arjuna

 

So, Krsna is referring to this jnana and not the Brahma jnana. Saying that I'd like to add that Brahma jnaanis also require the mercy of pure devotees of Krsna to understand Him as He is!

 

 

Can you explain what you mean by "dry speculator"? I don't understand what that means.

 

 

By dry speculator I mean a person who is so much involved with thinking of Brahman and formless God that He never wants to think of Sacchidananda vigraha Syamasundara Sri Krsna and his glorious pastimes "visvaksena kathasu yah", which is the real jnana

 

So, we can come to the conclusion that the final aim of brahma jnana, and bhakti (sadhana/vaidhi) is to reach the platform of spontaneous love for Krsna and his pastimes afer tasting that " sukham atyantikam yat tad, buddhi grahyam atindriyam " the person does'nt even want mukti as Caitanya Mahaprabhu said "Mama janmajanmanisvare bhavatad bhaktir ahaituki tvayi"

 

Hope you agree with this!