the jivan mukta in advaita

[Guest guest]

more gobbledygook.

 

Instead of debating the points I make you complain of the way I say them.

 

If everything is God ,why complain of the way God has chosen to speak through my post ?

 

Hey I've got an idea ,since what points i made are unable to be answered by your philosophy, just shoot the messenger,

ignore the message, after all since all is God any thought has equal validity to any other,and therefore

it's better to criticize the attitude or method

of a person then to give the message itself

any importence, after all everything being an illusion

everything having no purpose, it would just be a waste of time.

 

Yes your point is well taken, the messge that god speaks through us all should be ignored,and the way God choosed to send it is all important, know i see the light.

mmmmmmmmmm...light.

[shvu]

 

Hari bhol,

 

Please visit the nearest ISKCON temple asap and have some halwa, Prabhu. The ghee will make you drowsy and you can sleep it off. When you wake up and find that you still have Qs about Maayaavaada, please return to the temple and have some more Halwa. Repeat this and you will find that all your Qs on Maayaavaada will eventually disappear.

 

Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

 

questions have I ?

 

think I not,Questions have you.

 

Answers have I.

 

Why deal with philosophy only to let your pride

control your mind ?

 

the reality we exist in is God's reality,when you are actually jivan mukta then you will see this also(these words) as being God.

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

So long as the rope is mistaken to be a snake, it is a snake for all practical purposes.

 

 

No, this is wrong. The rope has none of the practical functions of a snake. No matter how much one thinks its a snake, the rope will not bite him. This is because the objective reality is that the rope is not a snake. Our illusioned perception of something does not create the objective reality.

 

 

From the perspective of the onlookers (which is the only perspective) it is that universal self operating everywhere all the time.

 

 

Thus the universal self, which is beyond ignorance, is acting and perceiving the multiplicty of idividuality. How else can there be action and interaction within the world. You may say, "the atma is no longer acting within the body of the jivan mukta, it is now the universal self acting". But you have simply passed the inconsistency on to the universal self. The illusion of multiplicity is perceived due to avidya. If the nondual universal self is interacting with the illusory multiplicity (through the body of the jivan mukta), he must be perceiving this because of avidya. Jivan-mukti is a state of realizing oneness and giving up avidya (which is the cause of perceiving duality). If the perception of duality exists after realization, either for the atma or for the "universal self", then avidya must still exist. I can't believe you don't perceive this as an inconsistency. You must be trying really hard to convince yourself otherwise.

 

 

From the perspective of the onlookers (which is the only perspective) it is that universal self operating everywhere all the time.

 

 

If, on the other hand, one wants to claim that the universal self is not actually acting through the body of this jivan-mukta, yet the body is still conscious and acting, then we have just gone against all definitions of life, consciousness and soul of the Upanishads. There can be no living body without the presence of a soul. Matter is unconscious; it becomes active due to the presences of the atma.

 

A jivan-mukta such as Shankara is acting, talking, writing, etc. The universal self is doing this? The nondual universal self, is perceiving duality and functioning within it? This perception of duality is caused by avidya. Thus one would have to conclude Shankara (the universal self) was under the influence of avidya.

 

If one wants to say Shankara only existed to the perceivers, but in reality he was not there and no soul was present within his body, then Shankara becomes the product of an illusioned mind. The perceivers, who were themselves covered by avidya (and perceiving multiplicity), created the perception of Shankara (and all his writings) due to their own illusion. Thus it is like a thousand monkeys sitting at typewriters. Out of all of our illusioned perceptions, someone made up an illusioned perception of Shankara, who wrote an illusory book on becoming free from the illusion of perceiving multiplicity.

 

According to Gita, every body has two aspects, the kshetra (the material ingredients) and the kshetra-jna (the perceiver or soul). Thus a jivan-mukta like Shankara also possesses these two aspects. We can either say that the kshetra-jna is an individual atma, or the universal soul. In either case, it is kshetra-jna, or the perceiver of duality. According to Advaita, this perception of duality is caused by avidya, so the absolute brahman must also be subjected to and covered by this ignorance.

[karthik_v]

Dear Shiva prabhuji,

 

 

you are not dreaming now,so comparing your present state to a dream in every way to make a point is ,useless.

 

 

An anology can only be a kind of simile. It is not the truth in itself. At best, it can help you see things in a different perspective. After that, you have to take the effort to get to the truth, using logic. Earlier I stated that Sankara's philosophy, which depended on logic, was largely a break from the previous vedic acaryas, whose style had been largely analogical. So, analogy alone can't explain Advaita. I am surprised that you missed this basic point.

 

 

Answers have I.

 

 

So, may I hear from you a list of 3 realized souls outside of Advaita [atleast 1 from the 20th century please] and your parameters for identifying them?

 

 

Why deal with philosophy only to let your pride control your mind ?

 

 

Supposing some of us are proud, be it so. Now when somebody from ISKCON scathingly attacks Sankara and even calls his philosophy yellow stool, all without understanding one word of that philosophy, what do you call it - humility?

 

Shvu,

 

 

Some people believe they have some kind of a prerogative to speak in a condescending manner about people who see things differently.

 

 

Blinkers on /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Obsession with the unknown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

 

here is a novel idea,instead of whining about inconsequential side issues,why don't you respond to

my previous post ?

[Guest guest]

that is the one entitled 'get real'

[anadi]

But first, who is a jivan mukta?

 

not according

"the standard ISKCON blather I've often encountered"

as Shvu Prabhu quoted Mr.Rajan Parrikar

 

Vrajanatha: You have explained that the souls swallowed up by Maya are of five kinds. In those five kinds of souls imprisoned by Maya, you included the sadhana-bhaktas (devotees in the stage of devotional service in practice) and bhava-bhaktas (devotees in the stage of spiritual love). Which devotees are released from Maya's prison?

Babaji:

From the moment he begins to live as a devotee of the Lord, the soul may be said to be released from Maya's prison. However, the final stage of release from Maya's prison is only attained when one attains the final stage of mature devotion to the Lord. Before that one is situated in the preliminary stage of release from Maya's prison. When the gross (sthula-sarira) and subtle (linga-sarira) material bodies are both finally broken, the soul attains the final stage of release from Maya's prison. By practicing sadhana-bhakti (the practical activities of devotional service) one gradually attains bhava-bhakti (spiritual love of God). When bhava-bhakti becomes strong and firm, the soul is able, at the time of leaving the gross body, to leave the subtle body also and be situated in his original spiritual form. Because material life lingers during the stage of sadhana-bhakti, and because it is not yet completely removed even in the beginning stages of bhava-bhakti, the sadhana-bhaktas and bhava-bhaktas are included among the five kinds of souls swallowed by Maya. The materialists and the impersonalists are certainly to be counted among the souls swallowed by Maya. Among the liberated souls, they who have attained liberation by engaging in devotional service to Lord Hari have alone attained the true perfection of liberation. A soul who commits offenses and is therefore imprisoned by Maya forgets "I am a servant of Lord Krsna". That forgetfulness is the root from which his offenses grow.

 

Without the mercy of Krsna, that soul is not excused from his offense. In the same way, without the mercy of Lord Krsna, that soul will not be released from Maya's prison.

 

The impersonalist sampradaya's faith is that by cultivating impersonal speculation they will attain liberation. That faith is groundless.

Without first attaining Lord Krsna's mercy, no one is released from Maya's prison.

 

In Srimad Bhagavatam (10.2.32-33) the demigods speak these two verses to explain this truth:

 

"O lotus eye one, those who think they are liberated in this life but do not render devotional service to You must be of impure intelligence. Although they accept severe austerities and penances to rise to the spiritual position, to impersonal Brahman realisation, the fall down again because they neglect to worship Your lotus feet.*

 

"O Madhava, Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord of the goddess of fortune, if devotees completely in love with You sometimes fall from the path of devotion, they do not fall like non devotees, for You still protect them. Thus they fearlessly traverse the heads of their opponents and continue to progress in devotional service."*

 

Vrajanatha: What are the different kinds of souls free of Maya's prison?

Babaji: The souls free from Maya's prison are of two kinds:

1. nitya-mukta (the souls who were never placed in Maya's prison), and

2. baddha-mukta (the souls who were at one time imprisoned, but now are free).

The nitya-mukta souls may be divided into two groups:

1. aisvarya-gata (souls who appreciate the Lord's feature of opulence), and

2. madhurya gata (souls who appreciate the Lord's feature of sweetness).

The aisvarya-gata nitya-mukta souls are personal associates of Lord Narayana, the master of Vaikuntha. They are particles of spiritual effulgence emanated from Lord Mula-Sankarsana, who resides in Vaikuntha.

The madhurya-gata nitya-mukta souls are personal associates of Lord Krsna, the master of Goloka Vrndavana. They are particles of spiritual effulgence manifested from Lord Baladeva, who resides in Goloka Vrndavana.

The baddha-mukta souls (who were once imprisoned but now are free) are of three kinds:

1. aisvarya-gata (souls who appreciate the Lord's feature of opulence),

2. madhurya( –audarya) -gata (souls who appreciate the Lord's feature of sweetness),

3. brahmajyotir-gata (souls situated within the Lord's spiritual effulgence).

Souls who during their period of practicing sadhana-bhakti are attracted to the Lord's opulence become eternal associates of Lord Narayana, the master of Vaikuntha. They attain salokya-mukti (the liberation of residing on the same planet as the Lord).

Souls who during their period of practicing sadhana-bhakti are attracted to the Lord's sweetness, after liberation enjoy the sweetness of direct service to Lord Krsna in the eternal spiritual abode of Vrndavana and other like abodes.

Souls who during their period of sadhana are attracted to become one with the Lord, after liberation attain brahma-sayujya-mukti (the liberation of merging with the Lord). In this way these souls are completely destroyed.

 

Who is a jivan mukta?

According Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura Jaiva-dharma Ch.17

 

[Guest guest]

No, this is wrong. The rope has none of the practical functions of a snake. No matter how much one thinks its a snake, the rope will not bite him. This is because the objective reality is that the rope is not a snake. Our illusioned perception of something does not create the objective reality.

 

What if a snake does not bite because it has no fangs any more or because it is dead or sleeping ? Is it a snake or a rope ? i would like to repost what i wrote to muralidhar :

 

 

muralidhar, sankara says brahman (self/god) is satya. jagan mithya. mithya is not the same as non - existence or asatya. this is same as what srimad bhagavatham says tejo vAri mRtam yatA. is srimad bhagavatham wrong too ? it is madhva's statement vishvam satyam which seems contradictory to srimad bhagavatham. but even that is not really wrong as you chose to call sankara because vishvam is satyam when we are in it.

 

to give you a practical example, look at your watch. what is it made of - metal and glass ? what you perceive as watch is metal and glass. this in turn is a bunch of molecules which in turn is a set of sub atomic particles which in turn is in a a dual state of matter and energy (debroglie's principle). what are you looking at my dear - a watch, a bunch of molecules, energy ? what is energy ? who is looking ?

 

 

[Guest guest]

Shiva, questions can be answered if one has the patience.

 

you are not dreaming now,so comparing your present state to a dream in every way to make a point is ,useless.

 

SRILA PRABHUPADA COMPARES THE PRESENT STATE TO DREAMING. PLEASE LEARN THE BASICS OF WHAT YOU ARE DEFENDING. ARE YOU CALLING HIS STATEMENT USELESS ? BEFORE YOU COMMENT ON SANKARA OR PRABHUPADA DEVELOP HUMILITY.

 

 

You want to believe in advaita as a reality ,why ?

 

YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE IN WHATEVER IS TRUTH. EVEN LOVE IS GOOD ONLY IF IT IS TRUE.

 

In this world we are all at the mercy of the controller of our destiny,that controller is a conscious intelligent being,we are not that being.

 

HOW DO YOU KNOW ? THE FUNTIONS OF OUR BODY ARE CONTROLLED BY THE JIVATMA BUT WE DONT KNOW THE NATURE OF OUR SOUL. WITHOUT THAT REALIZATION, HOW ARE YOU SURE THAT THE VEDIC STATEMENT AHAM BRAHMASMI IS WRONG. IS THERE IS ANY DIRECT VEDIC STATEMENT TO SUPPORT EXISTENCE OF MULTIPLE BRAHMANS.

 

 

 

Your purpose is to enhance it's experience,it's life,if you lose your individual sense of self,what use are you to God ?

 

DOES THE LORD NEED YOU TO FEED HIM BUT WE STILL DO SO TO DEVELOP BHAKTI. SIMILARLY THE SELF ENJOYS BY REPLICATION WHILE REMANING ONE. VAISHNAVISM IS REALIZATION OF ASPECTS OF SADGUNA BRAHMAN. VAISHNAVISM IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE FOR A ADVAITIN. CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE. BUT H SAW KRISHNA (BRAHMAN) IN SIVA ALSO.

 

 

What does God need you for if you do not exist as yourself ?

 

You only become a benefit to God if you are able to enhance God's pleasure,God has no need of you for any other purpose.

 

Why do you think you exist ?

 

MATERIAL EXISTENCE - INCLUDING JIVAS AND MATTER - IS DUE TO AVIDYA. IT IS PART OF LORD'S LILA.

 

For there to be a logical reason for your existence ,there has to be purpose to your existence, if that purpose is to become a non individual, then what good are you ? What could you possibly contribute ?

 

FOR THOSE ON THE PATH OF KNOWLEDGE JNANAM AND DEVOTION ARE THE GOAL. FOR THOSE ON THE PATH OF IGNORANCE, DUALISTIC ENJOYMENT AND SUFFERING IS THE GOAL. THE LORD HAS GIVEN US THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[theist]

 

 

Ram:"HOW DO YOU KNOW ? THE FUNTIONS OF OUR BODY ARE CONTROLLED BY THE JIVATMA BUT WE DONT KNOW THE NATURE OF OUR SOUL. WITHOUT THAT REALIZATION, HOW ARE YOU SURE THAT THE VEDIC STATEMENT AHAM BRAHMASMI IS WRONG. IS THERE IS ANY DIRECT VEDIC STATEMENT TO SUPPORT EXISTENCE OF MULTIPLE BRAHMANS."

 

 

 

SP:The Supreme Personality of Godhead is known as Purusottama, or the best of all living entities. He is a person like all other living entities, but He is the leader or the best of all living beings. That is stated in the Vedas also. Nityo nityänäm cetanas cetanänäm (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). He is the chief of all eternals, the chief of all living entities, and He is complete and full. He has no need to derive benefit by interfering with the affairs of other living entities, but because He is the maintainer of all,..."

[karthik_v]

 

here is a novel idea,instead of whining about inconsequential side issues,why don't you respond to my previous post ?

 

 

 

The response is titled "Shiva....list please". Now, why do I get the feeling that no matter how many times I respond, you may still claim that I never did, while conveniently forgetting to furnish with the list I asked you for? Could it be the effect of Maaya or would it be due to my bad association with maayavaadis?

[Guest guest]

Hari bhol,

 

Please visit the nearest ISKCON temple asap and have some halwa, Prabhu. The ghee will make you drowsy and you can sleep it off. When you wake up and find that you still have Qs about Maayaavaada, please return to the temple and have some more Halwa. Repeat this and you will find that all your Qs on Maayaavaada will eventually disappear.

 

Hare Krishna

 

Is that repeat Hare Krishna and all your Q's on Mayavaada will disapear? Hmmm divine guidance from the most unsuspecting quarters.

 

This post appears very condescending from one who is knowing all this Krsna consciousness AND MORE. One who is always self proclaimed RIGHT eous,and others WRONG teous

 

It's a great philosophy this non-dualism if ever you get pulled up for murder just tell the judge that he did it and that he is under illusion that there is such a thing as crime or you and me, or even death for that matter. 'I didn't kill them I just mixed their molecules back into the cosmic pool.' Go blast a few souls back to the Brahmajhoti, if no one, meaning no individual soul is responsible or accountable, there is no question of karma for that would constitute a second movement bound to reaction. Do as you please- not as God pleases.

This is the criminals perfect philosophy, of course if it fails to convince, one could always get off pleading insanity, now that might do the job- jivan mukta. Freedom. To go and covince others of their Godhood in a world of little Gods just waiting their turn to be Numero UNO, but don't tell them or there will be one more to share the title. Not a good choice. The egos ultimate false identity.

Dangerous philosophy this, and Sri Caitanya warned even looking at it. I wonder why.

[theist]

that there may be many souls that have experienced mukti as described to me by shvu in previous posts.That that one soul drops off into an impersonal realization of Brahman.I can even accept that his previous physical manifestations could continue on even though that jiva had dropped off into the slumber of such unconscious Brahman realization.Much like sleep walking.

 

The difference seems to be the Vaisnavas recognize that Supersoul is still directing those movements and the onlookers are real in their own right.

 

The advaitins don't account for the continued presence of those onlookers.Nor do they account for their separatness in the first place.

 

 

 

[karthik_v]

 

if ever you get pulled up for murder just tell the judge that he did it and that he is under illusion

 

 

Won't work. The judge is under the same illusion. Suppose you and the judge are both liberated, then there is neither "you" nor "the judge" left. Not the murder and the victim either. No court room either. All that is left is the Nirguna Brahman.

 

And your statement is an example of how those unfamiliar with Advaita argue - out of their faulty understanding of that philosophy.

[Guest guest]

jnatva devam sarva-pasapahanim

ksinaim klesair-janma-mrtyu-prahanim

tasyabhidhyanat trtiyam dehabhede

visvesvaryam kevala aptakamam

 

By understanding the turth of the Supreme Lord, one can slip the bonds of material life, and becomes free from the miseries of repeated birth and death. Having become liberated from the subtle and gross material bodies, he attains an eternal divine form as an associate of the Supreme Lord in his transcendental abode, and he realizes his hearts inner desires. (Svetasvatara 1.11)

 

sadhu-sastra-krpaya yadi krsnonmukha haya

sei jiva nistare, maya tahare chadaya

 

If the conditioned soul becomes Krsna conscious by the mercy of saintly persons who voluntarily preach scriptural injunctions and help him to become Krsna conscious, the conditioned soul is liberated from the clutches of maya,who then frees him. (Caitanya-Caritamrta-Madhya 20.120)

 

yam sarvesu bhutesu tisthan sarvabhyo bhutebhyo'staro yam

sarvani bhutani na viduryasya sarvani bhutani sariram

yam sarvani bhutanyantaro yamayatyesa ta atmantaryamyamrtam

 

He dwells in all beings, and yet is different from them and unknown to them. All beings are His creation. He rules over them as the inner self. He is the soul of all souls. Just as the body is ruled by the soul, so all souls and all bodies are ruled by Him, the Indwelling Soul of all souls. (Brhad-Aranyaka-Upanisad 3.7.15)

 

The siddhanta of the acarya of dvaitadvaita-vada on the subject of the jiva-soul.

 

 

jnana-svarupa-s ca hareradhinam sarira-yoga-viyoga-yogyam

anum hi jivam pratideha-bhinnam jnatrtvavantam yadanantam ahum

 

The soul, is both knower and known, unlimited in number, atomic, and an eternal servant of Krsna. As a result of his atomic condition, he is sometimes enveloped by mayik energy in the form a material body, and sometimes disembodied. In any case, the jiva is not one, but innumerable and appearing in countless material bodies. (Nimarka Acarya, Dasa-sloka)

 

The siddhanta of the acarya of suddhadvaita-vada

(Visnuswami, represented by Sridhara Swami)

 

hladinya samvidaslistham sac-cidnananda isvaram

sva-vidya-samvrto jivam samklesani-karakam

 

The nature of the Supreme Lord is sat-citnananda: He is the ultimate embodiment of eternity, knowledge and bliss, and is richly endowed with the hladini and samvit saktis. But the jivas, the souls of this world are covered by ignorance, which is the cause of their suffering the threefold miseries. (Bhagavat-Sandarbha, Sarvajna-sukta-vakya commentary of Sridhara Swami on Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.7.5-6)

 

vastuno'mso jivam vastunam saktirmaya ca vastunam karyam jagac-ca tat sarvam vastveva

 

 

A liberated soul attains a spiritually perfect body in the service of Krsna

 

 

mukta api lilaya vigraham krtva bhagavantam bhajante

 

The liberated souls have divine forms with which they worship the Supreme Lord by taking part in his transcendental pastimes. (Sridhara Swami's sarvajna-bhasya commentary on Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.87.21)

 

 

One who equates the individual soul with the Supreme Lord is an atheist.

 

aparimita dhruvas-tanu-bhrto yadi sarvagata-

starhina sasyateti niyamo dhruva netaratha

ajani ca yan mayam tada vimucya niyastr-bhavet

sama-manujanatam yadamatam mata-dusthataya

 

O Lord, although the living entities who have accepted material bodies are spiritual and unlimited in number, if they were all-pervading there would be no question of their being under your control. If they are accepted, however, as particles of the eternally existing spiritual entity - as part of You, who are the Supreme Spirit Whole - we must conclude that they are always under Your control. If the living entities are simply satisfied with being identified with You as spiritual particles, then they will be happy being controllers of so many things. The conclusion that the living entities and the Supreme Personality of Godhead are one and the same is a faulty conclusion. It is not a fact.(Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.87.30)

 

 

[shvu]

 

 

No, this is wrong. The rope has none of the practical functions of a snake. No matter how much one thinks its a snake, the rope will not bite him. This is because the objective reality is that the rope is not a snake. Our illusioned perception of something does not create the objective reality.

 

 

Perhaps it may make thing more clear, if I say "apparent reality" or "relative reality". For instance, let us say a Babaji performs magic in India. While his followers see it is as a miracle, a magician who can perform that trick himself knows exactly how the Babaji pulled it off. COnsequently, the believer thinks that the coin came out of thin air, while the magician knows that the Babaji had the coin hidden somewhere on his person. If the magician shares his knowledge with the lay person, the lay person will also know the truth behind the matter. This is, svata Pramaana, parataH apraamana. As long as I hold the mistaken indentity that the rope is a snake, it is a snake to me, It doesn't even have to move or display any of the practical functions of a snake. That is the idea.

 

Thus the universal self, which is beyond ignorance, is acting and perceiving the multiplicty of idividuality. How else can there be action and interaction within the world. You may say, "the atma is no longer acting within the body of the jivan mukta, it is now the universal self acting". But you have simply passed the inconsistency on to the universal self. The illusion of multiplicity is perceived due to avidya. If the nondual universal self is interacting with the illusory multiplicity (through the body of the jivan mukta), he must be perceiving this because of avidya. Jivan-mukti is a state of realizing oneness and giving up avidya (which is the cause of perceiving duality). If the perception of duality exists after realization, either for the atma or for the "universal self", then avidya must still exist. I can't believe you don't perceive this as an inconsistency. You must be trying really hard to convince yourself otherwise.

 

 

A simple example is Krishna. Was there an Atman perceiving in his case? The answer of Advaita is no. It is the Supreme self as is the case with a Jiivanmukta. The Jiivanmukta is alive because that body has the purpose of imparting knowledge to the world and therefore it's purpose is akin to that of Sadguna Brahman.

 

If, on the other hand, one wants to claim that the universal self is not actually acting through the body of this jivan-mukta, yet the body is still conscious and acting, then we have just gone against all definitions of life, consciousness and soul of the Upanishads. There can be no living body without the presence of a soul. Matter is unconscious; it becomes active due to the presences of the atma.

 

A jivan-mukta such as Shankara is acting, talking, writing, etc. The universal self is doing this? The nondual universal self, is perceiving duality and functioning within it?

 

 

That is the universal soul. Where has it been said that only a deluded soul can keep a body functional? Try the case of Krishna or Raama again. I believe this also covers the rest of the post.

 

Cheers

[anadi]

Vrajanatha: How do you define 'vivarta-vada"?

Babaji: In the Vedas there is description of transformation (vivarta), but that description is not at all like what has become known as the 'vivarta-vada'. Sri Sankaracarya has used the words 'vivarta' and 'vivarta-vada' to mean 'maya-vada' (the philosophy of impersonalism). The true meaning of the word 'vivarta' is given in these words:

 

Attvato nyatha buddhir vivarttam ity udahritah

Sadananda's Vedanta Sara 49

"The word 'vivarta' means 'misunderstanding the true nature of a certain thing'."

 

The individual is a tiny particle of spirit. But when he is imprisoned in the gross and subtle material body, he becomes bewildered and thinks, "I am this gross and subtle material body." Thus he misunderstands his true identity. "Misunderstanding" is the only definition of 'vivarta' given in the Vedas. Someone may think, "I am Raghunatha Bhattacarya, the son of Sanatana Bhattacarya", and someone else may think, "I am Sadhu Candala, the son of Vise Candala".

In this way the intelligence becomes bewildered.

Both of those persons are individual souls, tiny particles of spirit.

Still, they are bewildered and they think they are identical with the material body.

 

To MISTAKE A ROPE FOR A SNAKE or the glistening on a seashell's surface for silver are other examples of misunderstandings (vivartas).

 

By all these examples the Vedas teach that one should throw far away the idea that he is identical with the material body.

 

The mayavadis (impersonalists), however, reject this proper use of the word 'vivarta' and teach a funny theory they called 'vivarta-vada'. They say that the idea "I am the Supreme" is the true idea, and the misconception, or vivarta, is the idea "I am an individual spirit soul". By accepting this kind of ''vivarta-vada" one will not understand what is the actual truth. The true vivarta-vada does not at all contradict the sakti-parinama-vada. On the other hand, the mayavadis (impersonalists') vivarta-vada is only an object of laughter. The mayavadis' vivarta-vada is of three kinds:

1. the soul is really Brahman but he becomes bewildered into thinking that he is an individual soul,

2. the idea that the individual souls are reflections of Brahman, and

3. the idea that Brahman takes a nap and dreams that He has become the many individual souls. None of these are the true vivarta-vada. The evidence of the Vedas refutes them all.

Vrajanatha: What is this mayavada philosophy? My intelligence does not understand it.

Babaji: Try to understand it soberly and carefully. The maya-sakti is a perverted reflection of the svarupa-sakti (internal potency). The maya-sakti CANNOT ENTER THE SPIRITUAL WORLD. The maya-sakti is the controller of the material world. Because he is bewildered by ignorance, the soul enters the material world. Spiritual things are real and do have an independent, separate existence. However, the mayavada theory does not accept the reality of spiritual things.

1.The mayavada theory declares that the individual soul is actually Brahman, and it is only by the influence of maya that he thinks he is different from Brahman.

2.The mayavada theory declares that as long as he is under maya's influence, the soul thinks he is an individual soul, but when he becomes free of maya's influence, the soul learns that he is actually Brahman.

3.The mayavada theory declares that when maya's influence ceases, the individual spirit soul also ceases to exist.

In this way liberation is thought to mean nirvana, or the souls merging into the existence of Brahman.

In this way the mayavada theory does not accept the existence of a pure individual spirit soul, free from maya's clutches.

4. The mayavada theory also declares that when he incarnates in the material world, Brahman must take shelter of maya and accept a body made of matter. Brahman thus does not have a spiritual form and must accept a form made of matter. Thus Brahman accepts the different material forms of His incarnations, descends to the material world, performs very great deeds, leaves His material form behind, and returns to His own abode. The mayavadis' offer one kindness to the Supreme Lord. They say that individual souls and the incarnations of Brahman have one difference.

5. They say that the individual souls are dependent on their past karma, are pushed into the gross material body against their will, and carried along by the strong current of their past karma, are forced to suffer old-age, death and re-birth.

6. On the other hand, the Supreme Lord accepts a material body, material identity, material name, material qualities, and other material things voluntarily, by His own will, and by His own will at a certain time

He abandons those material things and becomes again manifest as pure spiritual consciousness. Although He performs activities, the Lord is not forced to accept the karmic results of those actions.

 

SBT Jaiva-dharma Ch.18

 

[Guest guest]

 

I said it's wrong to compare this world to a dream

in EVERY way.

 

It is dream like only in a small way,that way is that in a dream what one percieves as real is revealed to be

only partially real,the experience of the dream was real,but the reality you thought it was was an illusion.

 

The same for material consciousness,this world is real,but upon awakening one realizes it was real only in a partial way.

 

The difference is that in a dream once you awaken the dream world vanishes completly,when you awaken from material consciousness the world does not vanish,just your ignorance.

 

You have to believe in whatever is truth ?

This statement has no validity whatsoever.

The child believes in santa claus,the atheist believes in

evolution,the fool believes the sun rises from the ocean.

Their belief is not truth,so your statement has no

logic.

In fact you have to believe in whatever you are

led to believe,whether it's truth or not.

 

The function of our bodies are not controlled by jivatma,

are you causing your cells to replicate ?

Are you causing your DNA to inform your cells what to do ?

Useless statement.

We are not the controller,do we cause the manifestation

of all things ?

Only a fool would see himself as the cause of all causes.

 

The self doesn't replicate,the supreme self ,God,

cause the individuality of sparks emanating from

the original Self,like the sun rays emanating from the sun.

The sun doesn't replicate causing many stars,it emanates particles of energy .

God doesn't replicate causing facsimiles of God,we are not

replicants of God,we are minute and dependent,God is infinite and independent.

 

Your last statement is correct,but it is illogocal to an

advaitan.

If the jiva ultimately is non different then the Paramesvara

then how can the actions of the jiva be devotional ?

Devotional to what ? oneself ?

That is the same as the path of enjoyment ,self gratification.

 

Devotion only has relevance when it is for another,not oneself.

[sha]

D: Are there degrees of illusion ?

 

A: Illusion itself is illusory.

It must be seen by somebody outside it ,

but how can such a seer be subject to it ?

So , how can he speak of degrees of it ?

 

You see various scenes passing on a cinema screen;

fire seems to burn buildings to ashes ; water seems

to wreck ships ; but the screen on which the

pictures are projected remains unburnt and dry.

Why ? Because the pictures are unreal and the screen real.

 

Similarly , reflections pass through a mirror but it is

not affected at all by their number or quality.

In the same way , the world is a phenomenon upon the substratum

of the single Reality which is not affected by it in any way.

Reality is only One.

 

Talk of illusion is due only to the point of view.

Change your viewpoint to that of Knowledge and you will

perceive the universe to be only Brahman.

Being now immersed in the world , you see it as a real world;

get beyond it and it will disappear and Reality alone will remain.

 

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The Teachings of Ramana Maharshi

Arthur Osborne

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Hari Aum !!!

 

source: /

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Perception does not create or influence reality.

 

From Shankara's Brahma Sutra Bhashya 1.1.2:

 

"Action depends entirely on your will but perception is not an effect of volition. It depends on the object perceived. You cannot convert a tree into a man by an act of will. A tree will remain a tree always. Similarly Realisation of Brahman is Vastu Tantra. It depends on the reality of the object."

 

[Guest guest]

 

'which is not affected by it in any way',

here he says that the single reality is not

affected by things in this world.

 

I have to disagree,what would be the point of this world if

god wasnn't affected by it.

 

In fact everything exists in order to affect God,in a pleasurable way.

 

just as a filmaker makes a film,an illusion of reality,

in order to benefit from the film.

 

In the same way God has manifest the world to benefit from it,god wants to be affected in a positive way.

 

reality is subjective to the viewer,absolute reality

is underlying all other perceptions of what is reality.

 

Reality ot the ignorant is that the universe is only brahman,absolute reality is that everything isn't one.

 

God possess's numerous dimensions,mind,intellect,so many

types of energy unknowable to anyone else.

 

To say it is all one,is a simplification based on a lack of knowledge,not the gaining of knowledge.

 

It is like calling the ocean 'one', one could say that but it is a misrepresentation of it's true condition.

The ocean is fed by water from inside the earth,it releases water intom the atmosphere,so much variation

and interconnected energies.

 

God may comprise the totality ,but that is only the beginning of understanding.

[Somesh Kumar]

 

WITHOUT THAT REALIZATION, HOW ARE YOU SURE THAT THE VEDIC STATEMENT AHAM BRAHMASMI IS WRONG. IS THERE IS ANY DIRECT VEDIC STATEMENT TO SUPPORT EXISTENCE OF MULTIPLE BRAHMANS.

 

 

Ram, There is Brahman. That's allright. And saying the vedic statement Aham Brahmasmi is also allright.

 

But there is Parabrahman also.

 

As Arjuna says to Krsna :

 

Parambraham Paramdhama Pavitram Paramam Bhavan,

Purusham Sasvatam Divyam Adi Devam Ajam Vibhum.

 

What do you say about this verse? Can anyone of us call ourselves as Parabrahman?

 

 

YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE IN WHATEVER IS TRUTH. EVEN LOVE IS GOOD ONLY IF IT IS TRUE.

 

 

That's true. And only truth is Krsna. And a jiva can get true love only from Him. Just consider - The path of advaita is more an intellectual affair but the jiva is more an emotional rather than something like a computer(machine) which has only intellect in it. No emotions.

Emotions can only be experienced in terms of the Supreme Personality and His lilas,visvaksena kathasu yah which is the REAL AIM of human life!

 

 

MATERIAL EXISTENCE - INCLUDING JIVAS AND MATTER - IS DUE TO AVIDYA.

 

 

Material existence due to Avidya is allright. i.e., When one becomes Krsna concious He sees everything in relation to Krsna. That is vidya and so everything becomes spiritual!

 

 

IT IS PART OF LORD'S LILA.

 

 

But, If people don't try to come out of it considering this as Lord's lila then liberation for the Jivatma is impossible. I find this attitude generally among many people. I was the same not long time back and if Krsna's mercy is not there I might again become like that!

 

 

FOR THOSE ON THE PATH OF KNOWLEDGE JNANAM AND DEVOTION ARE THE GOAL. FOR THOSE ON THE PATH OF IGNORANCE, DUALISTIC ENJOYMENT AND SUFFERING IS THE GOAL. THE LORD HAS GIVEN US THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE.

 

 

Srimad Bhagavatam says this:

 

Vasudeve bhagavaty

bhakti yogah prayojitah

janayaty asu vairgyam

jnanam yat tad ahaitukam

 

If we develop the devotion to Vasudeva then knowledge and renunciation comes automatically. We need not do a separate endeavour for that!

 

[Somesh Kumar]

Sha from your quote:

 

 

Change your viewpoint to that of Knowledge and you will

perceive the universe to be only Brahman.

 

 

But what does a Brahma gyani do?

 

Krsna says what he does in BG:

 

Brahma bhuta prasannatma na sochati na kanksati,

Samah sarvesu bhutesu mad bhakti labhate param

 

So, there's a stage even after Brahman realisation which is param meaning superior to the Brahman stage and that is <u>Bhakti</u>

[karthik_v]

Dear Somesh Kumar prabhuji,

 

This is how SP translates BG 18.55 - "One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God."

 

Which word in the verse talks of the kingdom of God. All I can see is visate tad-anantaram, which only means enters thereafter. Of course, we have gone over this verse once before, but I hope you understand why I am quoting this again.